FanDuel - WFBC

March 07, 2006

Shit, fan. Fan, shit.:

posted by Prince Valium to baseball at 12:27 PM - 183 comments

Under baseball's steriod policy, if Bonds was found to have actually used steroids in the past, nothing would be done about it, right? Can they take away the mans' records?

posted by potpatient at 12:31 PM on March 07

There's no real policy on "records." It's a nasty slippery slope; if you take away Bonds's records for steroids, you have to take away Gaylord Perry's for throwing spitballs, and Ty Cobb's for being a racist asshole.

posted by Prince Valium at 12:33 PM on March 07

I expect nothing but rational discourse and intelligent discussion in this thread.

posted by grum@work at 12:33 PM on March 07

This should go well. What a week for someone to say this.

posted by yerfatma at 12:37 PM on March 07

Hey, this could really tarnish his legacy. What do you guys think?

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 12:42 PM on March 07

Yeah but he's a cancer survivor and the French just hate him anyway...

posted by JohnSFO at 12:48 PM on March 07

i don't think his records would be wiped, but if this book has legitimate clout, it would definitely (further) tarnish his legacy and probably (further) lessen his accomplishments the court of pulic opinion. as much as i dislike barry now, it's too bad he didn't stay "little barry," who flew around the bags and hit for good power. now he's giant barry who hits homeruns left and right, who almost no one outside the bay area respects. that's a shame.

posted by ninjavshippo at 12:49 PM on March 07

I predict he walks away from the game before the season begins.

posted by diastematic at 12:55 PM on March 07

Just a bit of advice for Barry; refrain from using the phrase "Whatever, dude" when testifying to a grand jury.

posted by garfield at 01:03 PM on March 07

Only confirms what we've known all along........Barry plays, and lives, by Barry's rules. Only the naive think he did not use......

posted by mjkredliner at 01:03 PM on March 07

now he's giant barry who hits homeruns left and right, who almost no one outside the bay area respects. that's a shame. It's partly because of McGwire and baseball fans. After '98, I noted to a friend that Bonds looked like he was completely changing his hitting style, i.e. swinging for the fences. I thought, "he's pissed that those other guys broke the biggest record in baseball." And there you go. Remember when there was actual debate about the greatest modern hitter (Griffey vs. Bonds)? Any debate now? Not an excuse, just an observation ...

posted by mrgrimm at 01:05 PM on March 07

Gimme a break! No way did Bonds use steroids. Some people say his skull actually got bigger. Well of course it did. He was using the new head press machine. It's like a Smith machine, except for your head. Jeez, give the guy a break. Head presses and protein, that's the ticket.

posted by Desert Dog at 01:09 PM on March 07

"Told you so" never sounded so sweet.

posted by Masked at 01:11 PM on March 07

I expect nothing but rational discourse and intelligent discussion in this thread. Well said, old bean.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 01:20 PM on March 07

Well, the description of the book makes it sound like an out-and-out smear job on Bonds' character. The information may be researched, and it sure looks damning, and it's not that I don't believe them, but then again, it sounds like that was the point. (My 25-watt bulb of hope that this is all just a big character assassination campaign against a misunterstood misanthropic superhero has shrunk to about the size of a birthday candle.) I'm with grum. I have no doubt that this will be the most civil and classy discussion in Spofi's history.

posted by chicobangs at 01:21 PM on March 07

I noted to a friend that Bonds looked like he was completely changing his hitting style, i.e. swinging for the fences. How did you address the fact he chokes up on the bat in that observation?

posted by yerfatma at 01:25 PM on March 07

Not to excuse Barry, Sammy or Big Mac, but were any of those things they took or supposedly took against MLB rules at the time? (yes they may have been against the law of the state they lived in, but if NBA tested for an illegal substance, say marijuana, the coaches would have to put on unis and pick four other guys from the stands to round out thestarting line ups. In my opinion, the NBA is the biggest crock of crap in pro sports) I do photography on the side, and I am willing to do anything legal to grow my business. For Bonds, Sammy and Big Mac, their business is contingent on their success in baseball Is it right? No. Do I see why they tried to take every little advantage they could? Yes. BTW Valium, Ty Cobb was not only a racist, but also probably a murderer. He pistol whipped a guy. The guy died from the injuries sustained. Chandler

posted by Wrigley South at 01:26 PM on March 07

And of course my subscription to SI ends this week.

posted by DrJohnEvans at 01:28 PM on March 07

Hey Grum, $hit, D@mn, pi$$, etc etc etc. Now that we have killed "rationale discourse" and "Intelligent discussion" out of the way, we may all tell the truth. Chandler

posted by Wrigley South at 01:29 PM on March 07

Is this really news to anyone? Didn't everybody know all of this before the book? I think he should just give it up, the fans have lost a huge amount of respect for him and his acomplishments. However, as has already been said, this is all the fault of Sosa's and McGwire's steroid use first.

posted by millertime at 01:32 PM on March 07

I saw him up close the other day in Scottsdale between BP sessions and we talked for a couple of minutes. He says he's clean, has been clean and people should just relax and enjoy the damn game. yerfatma, choking up on the bat would speed it up, wouldn't it?

posted by fenriq at 01:32 PM on March 07

Any follow-up from The Onion? ToddLokken

posted by thatweirdguy2 at 01:37 PM on March 07

d dog....your in denial...Look at bonds his first 12 seasons in b-ball (both physically and by the numbers he put up). And now look at the last 8 years... Players generally get better with age and put on some muscle, but come on man, not a player past his prime. And just to show Im not hatting...Big Mac..who I adore, is in the same boat. He was just more secrete about it, and people generally didn't hate him as much.

posted by solrac at 01:44 PM on March 07

Didn't everybody know all of this before the book? Actually, I don't think any of us knew this, and if you say you did, you're probably full of excrement. Unless you work for the agencies investigating BALCO, or you sat on the grand jury hearing the evidence turned up during the course of said investigation, then you didn't know either. If this book turns out to be true, then you'll know. If not, you're just another guy on a website spouting off about bullshit you have no knowlege of. There's a place to do that...it's called a Yahoo! baseball chat.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 01:49 PM on March 07

I predict he walks away from the game before the season begins Not going to happen. If he walks away then the television show goes down the tubes too.

posted by scottypup at 01:49 PM on March 07

If you take away the numbers from the cheaters, Sosa, Bonds, Mcguire. It should really help people appreciate what Ken Griffy and others like A-Rod have done. Allso I don't care what the record books say, untill someone hits 62 home runs clean. I will still consider Maris the home run king.

posted by Snipes at 01:53 PM on March 07

bonds is an idiot for taking the juice, just as Damon is an idiot for leaving the RedSox

posted by hardhits1012 at 01:54 PM on March 07

I'd say he gets busted sometime this year "for something he didn't know about"

posted by hardhits1012 at 01:56 PM on March 07

Does clean mean no steriods? Or does clean mean no performance enhancers of any kind and any type (greenies, cafeine, sudafed, slapstotheface...)? I think too many people treat this like an all or nothing issue and it's genuinely more complicated than that.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 01:57 PM on March 07

The truth of this matter has been long overdue. The guy is a stone liar.

posted by bwsports at 02:02 PM on March 07

Yeah but he's a cancer survivor and the French just hate him anyway... Couldn't have said it better myself.

posted by qbert72 at 02:02 PM on March 07

isn't it kind of strange that he went from fast and skinny to jacked in about 2 seasons with the pirates

posted by hardhits1012 at 02:03 PM on March 07

opposing fans should chant "Steriods! Steriods! Steriods!" it would through him off

posted by hardhits1012 at 02:06 PM on March 07

>>>it would through him off exactmaly

posted by JohnSFO at 02:10 PM on March 07

That story reduced Bonds to little more than a junkie jonesing for his next fix. It's really rather sad, whether you're a Bonds fan or not. He completely wrecked his body and his psyche for success in a typically short-lived career. If you can look past your hatred for Bonds, there has to be a shred of sympathy for someone who has destroyed himself and his legacy.

posted by willthrill72 at 02:13 PM on March 07

Well, the description of the book makes it sound like an out-and-out smear job on Bonds' character. It's written by 2 San Francisco JOURNALISTS. Yea, they have no axe to grind. The authors compiled the information over a two-year investigation that included, but was not limited to, court documents, affidavits filed by BALCO investigators, confidential memoranda of federal agents (including statements made to them by athletes and trainers), grand jury testimony Anything related to BALCO was under grand jury protection. Grand Jury testimony would have had to have been leaked. You really have to love a book based on illegally obtained information that can't be refuted publicly by those involved

posted by bdaddy at 02:14 PM on March 07

Maybe you should read the link, bdaddy. The sourcing for the book is lovingly documented.

posted by rcade at 02:18 PM on March 07

And by the way (I posted this in another thread), it is at all concerning to you that on the front page of CNN right now is Bond's face, with 5 articles linked to it (including a 3 page one), and a whole BOOK about this. Yet Kirby Pucket just passed away and the media talks about his Clemente award, and there's a thread in this sports filter 64 posts long talking about how good he was, yet the man was accused of - Wife caught him in an affair with a mistress he had for 18 years (including other affairs as well) - put a cocked gun to her head as she held their then-2-year-old daughter - tried to strangle her with an electrical cord - locked her in the basement - threatened his mistress - accused of sexual assualt in a bathroom There's something wrong with people's priorities

posted by bdaddy at 02:18 PM on March 07

I'd say that Bond's most impressive season wasn't 2001, when he got the magic 73, but rather 2004. His stats that year were incredible and I don't think that they can be considered "steroid inflated"...

posted by slackerman at 02:19 PM on March 07

You say Barry Bonds took steroids? No! This is the biggest "everyone already has shown they don't care" story of the year. On the other hand, those who have done very little home work still do not have a full picture of Ty Cobb. If you've only read the revised book by Al Stump you've wasted your time. If you believe the story that Ty Cobb killed a man then find a better library. Outside the white lines Cobb was as racist as most of the rest of white America. Inside those lines he was determined to be the best. He simply showed up many less talented, but glib, players who gave better quotes.

posted by ?! at 02:20 PM on March 07

Maybe you should read the link, bdaddy. The sourcing for the book is lovingly documented. OK, lets take a look at the sources we obtained transcripts of the secret grand jury testimony of Barry Bonds and seven other prominent professional athletes. illegally leaked grand jury testimony confidential memos Sealed material e-mail between BALCO owner Victor Conte and several athletes and coaches regarding the use and distribution of drugs; one might wonder how they have access to BALCO owners email? I'm sure Victor didn't forward it to them. As I said, you really have to love a book based on illegally obtained information that can't be refuted publicly by those involved

posted by bdaddy at 02:23 PM on March 07

Didn't everybody know all of this before the book? Actually, I don't think any of us knew this, and if you say you did, you're probably full of excrement. TBH, to be fair, millertime could have been referring NOT to Bonds' presumed steroid use, but to the fact that some reporters are pretty sure that Bonds used steroids. This book is not breaking a whole lot open, it seems to me -- the guys who initially reported that there is circumstantial evidence implicating Bonds are now revealing that they have so much circumstantial evidence that they could fit it in a book. I can't believe SI is splashing "THE TRUTH" across the front of the magazine -- at best this is "THE PROBABLY TRUE," but unless Bonds holds a press conference and says, "I took the damn stuff, okay? Whatever..." or even if somebody who doesn't have an ulterior motive (like, say, an ex-mistress) says, "I personally jammed a needle into Bonds behind," and then stands by it consistently, I say we are not yet at "THE TRUTH." Additionally, I am stunned by the Woodward and Bernstein job these Chronicle guys did on Bonds. That's a lot of man hours just to discredit one baseball player. The fact that they appear to have drawn their conclusion in advance of their research makes me not so keen on subscribing to that paper. I wonder, if someone put in that much effort with a focus on exonerating Bonds, would they be able to create as compelling a case the other way? On review: I realize the fast pace of this thread has already made some of these points, but I worked so hard I'm keeping them in mine, too.

posted by BullpenPro at 02:28 PM on March 07

. And this (long-winded) question: when given the opportunity to "testify" against Bonds on 60 Minutes, Victor Conte declined; he said that he sold steroids (etc.) to Anderson, but he had no knowledge connecting them directly to Bonds. In the note on sourcing, the authors claim in several places that Conte did implicate Bonds directly. See here, for example: "In his own statement during the raid, Conte gave an identical account of Anderson's bringing Bonds to BALCO and Bonds's subsequent use of the Cream and the Clear. Conte said Bonds used the drugs on a regular basis. Conte later claimed Novitzky's report contained words he never said." Does anybody have any explanation for that? It seems a bit strange. After he got caught, Conte was happy to talk about Marion Jones and Tim Montgomery to anybody who would listen; but he backed away from Bonds.

posted by Amateur at 02:28 PM on March 07

Until the allegations in this book are actually proven, they don't have any more credibilty than Jose Canseco's. Anybody can write a book, and many do, usually with the intent of making some money. The more spectacular the allegations, the more people buy the book. Not to say that this might not all prove to be true, but until it is, its just somebody else's storyline. Amateur- I was also wondering about the difference in Conte's statements. Was he lying in the 60 Minutes interview? Now my real dilemma- do I try to trade BB from my fantasy team while he still has some value, or stick with him, hoping this will all blow over and he gets me the 30 or so HR's I was hoping for when I got him in the 6th round?

posted by Bury Bonds at 02:41 PM on March 07

Vote Bonds for president!!! By the time his long historic baseball career comes to the end he'll be the most popular American alive. The most hated--maybe--but popular none the less. His name will live in baseball infamy forever. Step aside Babe, kneel down Hanks, here comes Bonds. No doubt bonds used stroids, we didn't need a book to tell us that. But you can't deny him of one thing, and that's he was good. He wasn't the only one using stroids you know.....and yet no one else seemed to be that damn good. And Im not just talking about HR. Last I checked stroids did nothing for patience at the plate. I sure do hate bonds, but hes got my vote for pres..

posted by solrac at 02:56 PM on March 07

And Pete Rose got banned from baseball for doing what? Pro sports needs to re-prioritize.

posted by Atheist at 03:00 PM on March 07

When Bill Clinton lied, nobody died. Wait, sorry...umm...whoops.

posted by diastematic at 03:06 PM on March 07

Now my real dilemma- do I try to trade BB from my fantasy team while he still has some value, or stick with him, hoping this will all blow over and he gets me the 30 or so HR's I was hoping for when I got him in the 6th round? Oh, you have to keep him. His potential value is huge, but his trade market value is much too low at this point. Your best option is to either ride out the storm or to hope for one HELL of an April from him and dump him to an overeager fan. And Pete Rose got banned from baseball for doing what? Breaking the most important rule established in the game since the Black Sox scandal almost destroyed the sport (and one that is posted in every locker room).

posted by grum@work at 03:08 PM on March 07

Let all athletes use steroids. Then everything will be equal. Sure Roger Maris had his homeruns without them, but then again he hit the homeruns agains pitchers who weren't taking them So Bond's was a little jacked up, then again so were some of the pitchers he faced. It all evens itself out in the end.

posted by Atheist at 03:11 PM on March 07

The reason that this book is coming out now is that the balco grand jury is closed, the official investigation is over, the indicted judged and sentenced. the evidence, testimony, etc is not exactly in the public domain, but it is no longer sealed. The writers still needed court orders to access parts of it. Conte was happy to talk about Marion Jones and Tim Montgomery to anybody who would listen; but he backed away from Bonds. Because Jones and Montgomery were track stars not widely known outside their sport. Even if you don't watch baseball, you still know who barry bonds is. I was also wondering about the difference in Conte's statements. Was he lying in the 60 Minutes interview? Come on. Even by that interview anyone who cared knew Conte was a chameleon- changing his story depending on who he was talking to at the time. The guys who initially reported that there is circumstantial evidence implicating Bonds are now revealing that they have so much circumstantial evidence that they could fit it in a book The Giants had enough clout to have the morning show host, producer, and director at KNBR fired after the host made a negative comment about the Giants. Chronicle reporters are not going to write a book about San Francisco's favorite baseball player if they didn't have the "juice" (pun intended) to back it up.

posted by irunfromclones at 03:20 PM on March 07

I blame the business of baseball more than I blame Barry Bonds. He's an emblem of an era where performance-enhancing drugs were widely accepted. It was an open secret in 1998 that McGwire and Sosa were juiced on something when they were the heros who saved baseball, and I don't think there's a moral difference between what McGwire was using and what Bonds allegedly used. Bonds' biggest problem is that he's a jerk, so he gets criticized and derided when McGwire was idolized for doing basically the same thing. I don't condone using steroids, but I don't think it's fair or logical to single out someone for doing something that was widely acceptable in the sport. MLB (and the fans for the most part) accepted sterioid use. I have a hard time attributing Bonds' success to steroids, because I believe more than a few other players were, too. Baseball Almanac has lists of the top 25 National League home run leaders for 1998 (McGwire led with 70; bonds had 37), 1999 (McGwire 65; Bonds 34), 2000 (Sosa 50; Bonds 49), 2001 (Bonds 70; Sosa 64), 2002 (Sosa 49; Bonds 46), 2003 (Thome 47; Bonds 45), and 2004 (Beltre 48; Bonds 45). Five National League players hit 40 or more home runs in 1998, seven in 1999, nine in 2000, seven in 2001, four in 2002, six in 2003, and six in 2004. Bonds was only way ahead of the pack in 2001. Were those other players juiced, too? I also don't agree with the idea of taking his records away. He set those records by playing the game was it was played in the late 1990s and early 2000s, with players taking steroids. The San Francisco Chronicle has a an article with more, plus a podcast of an interview with the two writers.

posted by kirkaracha at 03:24 PM on March 07

Chronicle reporters are not going to write a book about San Francisco's favorite baseball player if they didn't have the "juice" (pun intended) to back it up. took the words right out of my mouth clones. these writers are definitely putting their jobs and credibility under intense scrutiny here. moneys aside, they're risking a lot.

posted by ninjavshippo at 03:24 PM on March 07

So Bond's was a little jacked up, then again so were some of the pitchers he faced. It all evens itself out in the end. Finally someone states the obvious. Are we all really naive enough to think that only a few players are guilty of being juiced?

posted by eadifudontlikeit at 03:25 PM on March 07

I was also wondering about the difference in Conte's statements. Was he lying in the 60 Minutes interview? Come on. Even by that interview anyone who cared knew Conte was a chameleon- changing his story depending on who he was talking to at the time. My point exactly. So this time we should believe he's really telling the truth.

posted by Bury Bonds at 03:27 PM on March 07

As I said, you really have to love a book based on illegally obtained information that can't be refuted publicly by those involved Bonds can refute anything he likes -- to the media and in court with the best libel attorneys money can buy. You can play attack the messenger all you like, but looking at the depth of sourcing on which two professional mainstream journalists appear to have based their book, I don't think it will work. My guess -- and this is as someone who loves to watch Bonds hit more than any other athlete in the game -- is that he's about to have his testosterone-stuffed ass handed to him.

posted by rcade at 03:33 PM on March 07

just regrow the mustache and we'll call it even.

posted by ninjavshippo at 03:46 PM on March 07

The only way you are going to stop players from cheating is to take away their statsrecords when they get busted. We all know that even without this book Bonds had an * on all he's accomplished. As far as I am concerned it goes for any player in any era- if they cheated they forfeit their recordsstats.

posted by irunfromclones at 04:08 PM on March 07

"these writers are definitely putting their jobs and credibility under intense scrutiny here. moneys aside, they're risking a lot"...... ah yes....and 6 months from now when they are rolling in their millions from this garbage they'll say....."gee I wish I were a beat writer following the Giants around."

posted by SFGiant at 04:13 PM on March 07

until we find Bonds with a needle sticking out of his rear, the world may never know....

posted by eadifudontlikeit at 04:24 PM on March 07

Are we all really naive enough to think that only a few players are guilty of being juiced? A good point. I'm guessing the real hate here is because Barry is the way he is: standoffish, aloof, doesn't seem to most of us like a nice guy. Dale Murphy, he ain't. Let's also not forget the record he stands to break. The fact that it is Barry, and it's one of the most hallowed records in all of professional sports ratchets the hatred level up a few notches.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 04:28 PM on March 07

This isn't about steroids or cheaters. This is about people that don't like Barry Bonds period. Why aren't there any threads about Rafael Palmiero? In case anyone forgot, he was actually caught at something. So keep on bashing Barry and he'll keep on bashing your pitching staffs.

posted by SFGiant at 04:28 PM on March 07

Why aren't there any threads about Rafael Palmiero? Maybe because nobody cares about Rafael Palmeiro anymore?

posted by Bury Bonds at 04:33 PM on March 07

It has alot to do with Bonds being the best.

posted by garfield at 04:35 PM on March 07

Rafael Palmeiro killed his career when he decided to be a spokesman for the little blue pills

posted by eadifudontlikeit at 04:36 PM on March 07

Exactly my point. But shouldn't all these self righteous baseball purists be concerned with making an example of Palmiero? If it wasn't about Barry Bonds then the story would have been dropped just like it was with Palmiero. They all sound like a bunch of whiny 10 year olds. Barry is a cheater. Barry is a cheater.... It's entertainment folks. That's all it is.

posted by SFGiant at 04:38 PM on March 07

I think it's a combination of all the factors the last few posters have mentioned. It's also important to remember that this often irrational hatred of Bonds works well to sell books, newspapers, magazines, and airtime. It's funny to me how disgusted many are by cheating yet how prevalent a part of society it is. From tax loopholes to viagra, most everyone is a cheater and a hypocrite...

posted by JohnSFO at 04:44 PM on March 07

The both have one thing in common. After all the steroid scrutiny neither one of them has hit many home runs. Barry knows everyone hates him and he will play until he is 50 if thats what it takes to break the HR record.

posted by eadifudontlikeit at 04:46 PM on March 07

And isn't also amazing how this story just happened to coincidentally break right at the start of baseball season? Perhaps it wasn't news worthy enough before now or could it be about selling books and magazines? How many people are out there now cheating their bosses by reading this during company time????

posted by SFGiant at 04:49 PM on March 07

Why aren't there any threads about Rafael Palmiero? We've had our Palmiero threads. You must have missed them. The book is about barry, not palmiero, so the thread is about barry. Come on, this is obvious stuff.

posted by justgary at 04:50 PM on March 07

For every person that suggests Barry Bonds' records should be removed/marked for using performance enhancing drugs, are they also willing to paint Mike Schmidt with the same "cheater" brush? How about Willie Mays? And here is a good explanation why "removing" Bonds' records is a quagmire of problems on it's own. (and before someone calls me a "Bonds' apologist", I've made it perfectly clear that I believed he used something in 2000 or 2001)

posted by grum@work at 04:53 PM on March 07

Look at the can of worms you open princess valium. Prince valium, sorry its the hair. I got nothing in regard to Bonds just wanted to point out the Spaceballs refrence.

posted by HATER 187 at 04:58 PM on March 07

Bonds can refute anything he likes -- to the media and in court with the best libel attorneys money can buy. There is just no upside for him to do so. It is virtually impossible to win in court and only keeps these things in the public eye and helps them sell more books. Bonds would be forced to prove that the information was false and was made with actual malice. The media is very much anti-Bonds, so pleading his case there will not get him anywhere either. And, having a lot of sources isn't really the same as being right. It's impossible to judge whether these are well-supported allegations without taking a look at the sources, none of which are available.

posted by bperk at 05:01 PM on March 07

I had another diatribe all written, but Grum's "Willie Mays" link said it a whole lot better.

posted by Bury Bonds at 05:05 PM on March 07

I just feel sorry for all the good players out there were displaced by the cheating girlie men that were just playing the "game". What a farce, it could have been policed, controlled, nobody in charge. In the Olympics you are tested and its all over. In Baseball all that happens is alot of talk that just makes more people unsure who is who, what is what. It doesn't matter anymore to me. I see to many people from the grade school level all the way too the professional level, developing themselves or the system to WIN. Hey be true to your colors what ever happens, ha.

posted by westbranch at 05:15 PM on March 07

I'm a Barry fan, but to say anything about his records being takin' away is just ridiculous. The fact that he is still playing at 42 and not being a pitcher is an accomplishment in it self. Remember, enhancments don't make you hit the ball, they may help you hit it farther. Whats the difference in a 390 ft. shot, or 500 ft. a homerun is just what it is. ps. if you want to talk about numbers raising for a year or two.....does anyone remember Brady Anderson!!! That's the roid boy!!

posted by tubby2522 at 05:17 PM on March 07

But Palmeiro got caught and walked away from the game with no records to his name. And Spofi, at the time, nailed Palmeiro to a tree, repeatedly, for months. He didn't exactly escape censure. (Check the archives; it got harsh.) Bonds, by the very nature of his stature and the fact that he's done himself no favors in the PR department, especially among the beat writers who had to deal with him every day, will get as much flak as anyone. That's just how it's going to be. Oh, and leave his records alone. Not only were steroids basically legal at the time (getting caught merited a slap on the wrist, but that was it, and even then only in some cases), but as has been said repeatedly in this thread, retrofitting morality onto old results opens a serious can of worms.

posted by chicobangs at 05:19 PM on March 07

WIND ADVISORY: perpetual, hot air will be blowing inland from the SF bay all day today. And, having a lot of sources isn't really the same as being right. It's impossible to judge whether these are well-supported allegations without taking a look at the sources, none of which are available. very true. as always, this is all speculation, but that's the fun part, right? How many people are out there now cheating their bosses by reading this during company time???? an astute comparison. i guess that means i'll be due a 200% raise as a result of my "cheating." This isn't about steroids or cheaters. This is about people that don't like Barry Bonds period...And isn't also amazing how this story just happened to coincidentally break right at the start of baseball season? Perhaps it wasn't news worthy enough before now or could it be about selling books and magazines? well, no it isn't amazing at all. it's obviously well-timed to inspire interest and boost future sales... but i think you've got the orange and black wraparound glasses on a little too tight if you think only haters care about this book. if there's a chance that the best ballplayer in the history of the game used supplements to get there, i'd say that's newsworthy on its own merits. there are lots of players i don't like for one reason or another, but respect for their game. barry fell out of this category for me a long time ago.

posted by ninjavshippo at 05:20 PM on March 07

Barry Bonds is a great baseball player. period.

posted by Dobbstown at 05:25 PM on March 07

Ya Ya, You can "maintain" a functioning stronger body longer taking enhancements and therefore play at a level others can't. I vote for honest competition not some unreal performance.

posted by westbranch at 05:26 PM on March 07

It's impossible to judge whether these are well-supported allegations without taking a look at the sources, none of which are available. The sources will be available on March 27 when the book comes out. I'm trying to chase down an early copy to review on SportsFilter. The allegations against Bonds amount to more than innuedo. They're a significant part of a grand jury investigation that has resulted in plea bargains for two people (Victor Conte and Greg Anderson) and ongoing criminal cases against two others. Are the prosecutors going after these cases a bunch of Barry haters?

posted by rcade at 05:29 PM on March 07

>>>Are the prosecutors going after these cases a bunch of Barry haters? no, just opportunists looking for some Larry King time :)

posted by JohnSFO at 05:35 PM on March 07

(Sorry, Bonds had 73 home runs in 2001, not 70. I regret the error.) Everyone hit more home runs in 2001, though. The top 25 National League home run leaders averaged 36.12 home runs in 1998, 38 in 1999, 36.84 in 2000, 40.04 in 2001, 33.04 in 2002, 34.16 in 2003, and 35.64 in 2004.

posted by kirkaracha at 05:40 PM on March 07

an astute comparison. i guess that means i'll be due a 200% raise as a result of my "cheating." that good a hearty chuckle.

posted by garfield at 05:46 PM on March 07

The cream & clear will probably be OTC in twenty years. He's a product of the times. If your angry that a player took performance enhancers then most of your childhood heroes are guilty as well.

posted by catfish at 05:53 PM on March 07

Hello from the Wine Country. Let me help everyone here. I worked for both the SF Chronicle & Examiner for 8 years. Now, history has shown throughout the years that the Chronicle was the "sensationalist" newspaper and the Examiner was the "establishment" newspaper owned & operated for years by the Hearst family (anyone here remember Patty & her "adventure in Militant Land" in the 70's). Founded in the 1860's, the Chronicle will continue to be the sensationalist newspaper it. So here we have 2 reporters that work for the "Chronicle" and they are going to write this book. The only possibility is as we know, they have to write a "sensationalist" book. So the best way to do that is, as was noted before, they acquire illegally obtained documents and the rest you know, is probably going to be literary history. Also, high intellect is not a requirement of the job itself! You just have to be able to type.

posted by sonofgandalf at 05:58 PM on March 07

And by the way (I posted this in another thread), it is at all concerning to you that on the front page of CNN right now is Bond's face, with 5 articles linked to it (including a 3 page one), and a whole BOOK about this. Yet Kirby Pucket just passed away and the media talks about his Clemente award, and there's a thread in this sports filter 64 posts long talking about how good he was, yet the man was accused of - Wife caught him in an affair with a mistress he had for 18 years (including other affairs as well) - put a cocked gun to her head as she held their then-2-year-old daughter - tried to strangle her with an electrical cord - locked her in the basement - threatened his mistress - accused of sexual assualt in a bathroom There's something wrong with people's priorities Notice that nowhere in that list of accusations does it say "cheating at baseball" or anything else related to the game. So why should any of it enter into a discussion about how good of a baseball player Kirby Puckett was? Surely you can see the difference, and how it relates to the game of baseball, between the charges leveled against Puckett and those leveled against Bonds.

posted by fixjuxa at 06:14 PM on March 07

they acquire illegally obtained documents This has come up repeatedly in the thread. So what? Would you have had us ignore the Pentagon Papers?

posted by yerfatma at 06:18 PM on March 07

The cream & clear will probably be OTC in twenty years. So will bionic limbs (only with a prescription). I just want to know how he's going to respond to all of this. "I didn't know that they were animal steroids that I was taking." I wish I could be a fly on the wall when Barry and his lawyers try to figure out how to get out of this one.

posted by wingnut4life at 06:32 PM on March 07

Is this the right queue for the trainwreck?

posted by squealy at 06:38 PM on March 07

I expect nothing but rational discourse and intelligent discussion in this thread. Well, it certainly started out o.k. but it's going nowhere fast.

posted by willthrill72 at 06:43 PM on March 07

Reply to Desert Dog's comment common man, I have done all of the same exercises that barry has, and i've used protein for over 7 years, not to mention the other supplements like creatine and other things, but in no WAY has my body changed anything like his has. He has doubled in size, and you can ask anyone who knows anything about lifting weights. That can't happen unless you use the juice, lets be real

posted by cmsickman at 07:06 PM on March 07

I don't get the part where just because baseball didn't consider steroids illegal a few years ago makes this OK. It was still cheating. It's not just getting an edge over other players or compensating for aging muscles, it's cheating. Participants who cheat in any other sport get disqualified, and their recordswinnings medalsstats taken away. How can anyone say "leave the records alone" if they were achieved while cheating? How can anyone say "he's still a great baseball player" if he was cheating? CHEATING! Bonds may be at the epicenter at the moment, but that goes for any athlete that has used an enhancement.

posted by irunfromclones at 07:07 PM on March 07

I don't get the part where just because baseball didn't consider steroids illegal a few years ago makes this OK. Well, if something is not illegal, then what does that make it? Mark McGwire kept Andro in his locker in full sight of the press during his big '97 homer streak. Burleigh Grimes is in the Hall of Fame as a proud spitballer. Ty Cobb beat up cripples in the stands. (Admittedly, that didn't enhance his performance. Fair play to him, then.) Could any of them get away with their behavior in 2006? Of course not. Does it change the fact that when they played, they did their thing at least nominally within the rules of the game? Nope. Doesn't change that one bit. You can't legislate right and wrong. That's why the rulebooks are so thick, and why they get rewritten all the time.

posted by chicobangs at 07:23 PM on March 07

*Barry(asterisk) Bonds*.....nuff said

posted by Grrrlacher at 07:29 PM on March 07

To be honest, I am so happy for the game of baseball that this kind of stuff is coming out, barry bonds is the worst thing to ever happen to the game, and its just shameful what he's done to it........... I'll never forget arguing with a guy named grum@work on this site who was supporting bonds and his steriod case to me, I love being vindicated, and to the million people I've argued with about this, today I got it. I love baseball and Im just so happy these kind of solid facts could come out about the case, so people could really grasp what this guy was doing.

posted by gregy606 at 07:39 PM on March 07

the worst thing that ever happened to the game? Like, as in worse than the Black Sox scandal, or worse than a mid-season strike in '94 that resulted in no playoffs or world series for the first time in decades, and embittering fans (fans who ironically came back after the Ripken record and the '98 heroics of McGwire and Sosa)?

posted by hincandenza at 07:47 PM on March 07

The source material looks pretty solid. If the Court of Public Opinion needed a clincher to push it over the edge with Bonds, this should do it.

posted by roberts at 07:48 PM on March 07

If the single-season home run record was broken on the juice, I'd definitely put this alongside the Black Sox scandal, the White Sox wearing shorts and the institution of the designated hitter as the worst events in baseball history.

posted by rcade at 07:54 PM on March 07

from the article: Bell retained answering machine recordings of him after he threatened to kill her, remarking that if she disappeared no one would be able to prove he even knew her. d'oh!

posted by boltman at 07:57 PM on March 07

i concur w/ rcade.

posted by ninjavshippo at 07:59 PM on March 07

The thing that stands out the most to me and a lot of the people I,ve discussed the Bonds issue is that Barry represents now in a lot of people eyes. The thing that over the years that most of us can't stand in another human being. I don't care if it's an athelete or a freind or family member. The felling of betrayal. I can forgive someone who says I'm sorry I made a mistake. I can't forgive them until they ask for it.

posted by kck54 at 08:00 PM on March 07

Not a Barry fan, but he put the bat on the ball. Last time I checked steroids don't increase vision.

posted by tlach at 08:45 PM on March 07

Not a Barry fan, but he put the bat on the ball. Last time I checked steroids don't increase vision. nope. just durability, recovery and power, i guess.

posted by ninjavshippo at 09:00 PM on March 07

First, I don't think Bonds should ever make it in the Hall Of Fame. Second, It's going to be a shame that he's going to break the home run record and it's going to stand even though we all know he had help using the roids.

posted by steelers101 at 09:04 PM on March 07

"Not a Barry fan, but he put the bat on the ball. Last time I checked steroids don't increase vision." posted by tlach at 8:45 PM CST on March 7 It's funny, you didnt even take the time to read the whole article I guess, Bonds clearly notes that he even felt his vision had become noticibly more perceptive.

posted by gregy606 at 09:20 PM on March 07

"The book said Anderson and Bonds subsequently tweaked the program, adding such drugs as the steroid Deca-Durabolin and growth hormone, which allowed Bonds to retain his energy and physique without rigorous training. Not only did the growth hormone keep him fresh, but after complaining in 1999 about difficulty tracking pitches, he noticed it improved his eyesight as well." -And back to me having a great day.....

posted by gregy606 at 09:28 PM on March 07

True, but if you don't get wood on the ball, it doesn't matter how much power you have.

posted by tlach at 09:42 PM on March 07

me: Conte was happy to talk about Marion Jones and Tim Montgomery to anybody who would listen; but he backed away from Bonds. irunfromclones: Because Jones and Montgomery were track stars not widely known outside their sport. Even if you don't watch baseball, you still know who barry bonds is. Well, that's kind of my point. Conte went on 60 Minutes after his lawyers told him not to -- he was still under investigation, remember -- and for what reason? Perhaps the guy likes to see his own name in the papers? Enjoyed letting everybody know that he was the reason for Jones' and Montgomery's world records? The advertisements for the 60 Minutes interview all hyped up the connection between BALCO and Bonds, but then I watched it and Conte only implicated Anderson. At the time I thought "well, that's good news for Barry, because if Conte had anything on him he obviously would have used it." What could possibly have made a bigger splash than telling the world that he saw Barry Bonds shooting up? So why didn't he do it? I'm not saying that as in "Bonds must be innocent because Victor Conte is a liar." There's enough other stuff here (including testimony from Conte's VP) to convince me, actually. But I don't understand why Conte, of all people, would hold back from telling the world that he was the secret to Barry's success.

posted by Amateur at 09:48 PM on March 07

Gregy what he says and scientific data says are two different things. His so called ability to track the ball better was probably mentally induced and no effect to the drug. And on a separate note to nullify his records would be the equivalent to ex post facto. It wasn't a crime, by mlb standards, at the time of the act. Meaning it would be unjust to punish him now.

posted by tlach at 10:01 PM on March 07

If there is no rule against it, it is not cheating!!!!!!!!!!!!! If somebody wants to pursue this through the legal system that is another matter. Anyone wanting to change the record book had better stop and look up the defininition of cheating.

posted by Fade222 at 10:18 PM on March 07

You can rest assured that baseball will not negate any individual record based on any wrong doing. Period. As an aside: There never was an official asterick for Marris. There was no official record book in 1962. I've never believed baseball records should be judged for the whole history of major league baseball. The game of 1910 is drastically different than the game today. Let's just look at records as being a part of an era. Barry Bonds: Most Home Runs Season (Juiced Up Super Freaks Era) 73 Roger Marris: Most Home Runs Season (Yankees At the End of Their Big Run Era) 61 There you go.

posted by ?! at 10:24 PM on March 07

Why is this such big news to us? No one is surprised. This is the straw that broke the frigging camel's back. Everyone knows this already. The only question I really think that matters is: Do you think steriods made Bonds the pure hitting machine he is? I mean, a lot of these other guys were on steriods and...

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 10:31 PM on March 07

well Greg, it sounds good, but if you'll join us in reality. Unless BB is an optometrist then his testimony on his eyesight is an opinion. Not A FACT. Unless you have testimony from an optometrist, who examined BB prior to him taking roids and while he was on steroids stating there was an increase in his vision, then you don't actually have proof his eyesight was better.

posted by tlach at 10:34 PM on March 07

"Not a Barry fan, but he put the bat on the ball. Last time I checked steroids don't increase vision." posted by tlach at 8:45 PM CST on March 7 It's funny, you didnt even take the time to read the whole article I guess, Bonds clearly notes that he even felt his vision had become noticibly more perceptive. posted by gregy606 at 9:20 PM CST on March 7 "The book said Anderson and Bonds subsequently tweaked the program, adding such drugs as the steroid Deca-Durabolin and growth hormone, which allowed Bonds to retain his energy and physique without rigorous training. Not only did the growth hormone keep him fresh, but after complaining in 1999 about difficulty tracking pitches, he noticed it improved his eyesight as well."-SI article posted by gregy606 - Be my guest and agree with him Grrlacher, Im just gonna go ahead and put your name next to his argument so you guys can get the proper recognition...

posted by gregy606 at 11:03 PM on March 07

I'll never forget arguing with a guy named grum@work on this site who was supporting bonds and his steriod case to me, I love being vindicated, Hey, still here! I wasn't the one that disappeared for 5 months after making this statement on September 23rd: hate to say i told ya so to everyone in sportsfilter, but i've been saying all year that the indians are one of the best, and most well rounded teams in baseball. And like i said the twins and whitesox were way overrated I mean, you didn't comment again until the first week of March. It's almost like, I don't know, you were embarrassed to be so wrong. I'm glad you are back however, and have decided to use capitalization in your sentences this time. But as for being "vindicated", I'm not sure where you get that from. You spouted some nonsense about Bonds and steroids and his stats, I ripped apart your arguments with facts and figures, and then you slinked away. However, if you get some great joy out of thinking you are a better man for what happened today, go ahead and enjoy it. Far be it for me to crush little dreams like that.

posted by grum@work at 11:11 PM on March 07

He's yet to make a good argument grum, but thanks for the laugh

posted by tlach at 11:16 PM on March 07

This is nothing new...we knew he was on roids.. I mean, what the guy has in his veins could pass for toxic waste. I'm not sorry at all for being so blut..this guy is a cheater in my book, just like sammy and prolly big mac too. MLB got lucky that only some "minor" stars (canseco,palmoro) got caught to take the heat for all the superstars. I used to look down on canseco for blowing the whistle but now I see that he really did know what was going on and was not gonna go down as the only scape-goat for Bud and the boys. When you look at the record books years from now and you see Barry Bonds name...look for bunches of these *************************

posted by Warminzu at 11:41 PM on March 07

It's funny you decided not to highlight the fact that I did predict the fact that the Twins were overrated grum. Not to mention I Still feel the White Sox had a very suspect lineup, with a pitching staff full of guys having career years. Lucky is an understatement. Today I still feel the same way about that post as the day I made it, you can take it out of context any way you want.

posted by gregy606 at 11:51 PM on March 07

The allegations against Bonds amount to more than innuedo. They're a significant part of a grand jury investigation that has resulted in plea bargains for two people (Victor Conte and Greg Anderson) and ongoing criminal cases against two others. Are the prosecutors going after these cases a bunch of Barry haters? rcade -- while I haven't seen anything to suggest that the prosecutors going after these cases are a bunch of Barry haters, there is at least some evidence (see some references here, for example) that suggests that the initial investigation of Bonds was at least in part motivated by some animus towards Bonds. I know that doesn't go at all to the merit of the allegations, but it does suggest that others' views of Bonds may have contributed to the fact that there was an investigation in the first place. There's also a good case to be made that the entire Balco matter is a colossal waste of government resources and taxpayer money, but that's neither here nor there for purposes of this discussion.

posted by holden at 11:55 PM on March 07

Today I still feel the same way about that post as the day I made it, you can take it out of context any way you want. Then you'd still be wrong. Look, you made a prediction and were proven incorrect. You can't be overrated and win the world series. They didn't win because of luck. They won because they had great pitching and timely hitting. Maybe this year will be different. But it won't mean they were overrated last year. They won it all. Nothing was taken out of context. I thought the white sox didn't have a chance. I was proven wrong. Why can't you just admit you were wrong?

posted by justgary at 12:16 AM on March 08

And as for vindication, all I have to say is hell yes grum....For the thousand people I have argued about the topic of bonds substance abuse, all I have to do anymore is just point to the facts coming out in this book grum. At least Im not giving up on my tribe like it appears you might be on your hero barry bonds. You better write it down guys I said the Indians are winning the central on March 7th, so you can bring it up later for me, lol, I could care less, if I say it, I mean it. By the way justgary in my post I was pointing out my correct prediction about the twins, and Indians who still had a great 93 win season, the most by any non-playoff team, and more than many teams in the playoffs. And my incorrect one about the white sox..that being said, 2 outta 3 aint bad gary.....

posted by gregy606 at 12:24 AM on March 08

Great day for baseball discourse, it seems the Hot Stove League is over and the season will be here before you know it. I just have one question. How come when Mark McGwire cheated, it was a "dietary supplement" and people were ready to over look it. Then when Bonds did steriods, he's a disgrace to the game and himself and his team and his family and to civilization in general (let's face it. Bonds is no PR man about the way he is with everyone). I still say and I will always say, it's because Barry is black. I don't give a damn what anyone else here thinks, that's the bottom line! This will be a very interesting season. And no, I'm not black

posted by sonofgandalf at 12:25 AM on March 08

as for your weak arguements about bonds being falsely accused, they are what look foolish now I believe, and deep down you now know as well......PERIOD Well, again, I see that you decide to go off topic to try and win an argument. If you'd actually read the discussions I participated in about Barry Bonds and steroids use, you'll notice that I didn't say that he was falsely accused. What I did say was that people making the accusations were basing it on information ("He's got a big head!") and statistics ("Look at the HR spike!") that were either weak or lacking in foundation. Of course, you never actually stated any point in the discussion other than "I'm right! You're wrong!", so I guess you can take any of the discussions where I dissected your arguments like a surgeon performing an autopsy as "victories", but I'm pretty sure those that were reading at the time have a pretty good idea how things were. And wasting your life here while baseball season isn't even around...just one sports season for me grum I'm pretty sure the baseball season didn't end on September 23rd. For example, your favourite team the Indians played a whole bunch of games after that date and went 2-6, including losing 3 games against the White Sox to end the season. Of course, you can't claim a "victory" at that point, so why bother hanging around, right? CLEVELAND INDIANS 2006 CENTRAL DIVISION CHAMPIONS I hope so. I've got a couple of Cleveland players on my fantasy baseball team and I'd like to see them do well this year. All I want to know grum, do you still think its a lie after all this....?? What is a lie? That Bonds used P.E.D.? Sweet fancy moses, do you ever actually read what other people say, or is "winning" your arguments so important that you ignore anything that might tarnish that ideal? I've stated numerous times that I believe that Bonds used some sort of P.E.D. in the off-season between 2000 and 2001 (and possible during the 2001 season). I said I believed he took them to help recover quicker from his injuries the previous season. What I've always argued against were the uninformed proclamations that people make about his steroid/P.E.D. use based on ill-conceived logic. If you STILL can't figure that out by now, there really is no hope for this discussion. It's funny you decided not to highlight the fact that I did predict the fact that the Twins were overrated grum. It's not "funny", it just wasn't something that I felt contributed to the point I was trying to make. I chose to use some editorial licence and highlight the information I wanted to stand out. Today I still feel the same way about that post as the day I made it, you can take it out of context any way you want. I didn't take it out of context. That was all that you said in that comment, so what else can I do? I thought it was interesting since you were obviously enjoying the "I told you so" moment, but when things suddenly took a turn for the worse for your beloved Indians, you disappeared for a long time. I've been wrong about a lot of things on SportsFilter (I have a "Costanza" award for my ineptitude during the NFL playoffs and I picked against the White Sox in every single round of the playoff (which, by the way, are part of baseball and lasted many days after September 23rd)), and I have no problem admitting to it. So if you are trying to "shame" me or something, you're just wasting your time. I have absolutely no regrets for anything I've posted on this site. Well, except for my comments about the Estrada/Erstad home plate collision. I'm willing to admit that I was a little stubborn about my point of view and probably should have conceded I was wrong.

posted by grum@work at 12:26 AM on March 08

Not at all grum I just dont follow any team but the Indians, I'll never be some bandwagon fan for another team, thats just not me. When my team's season is over, so is mine. I've been a fan long enought to accept that fate. Like I said before 2 outta 3 predictions in a division is fine for me. Furthermore thanks for answering me, I hope you read that book thats coming out so you can get a grip on the reality of bonds' situation grum.

posted by gregy606 at 12:35 AM on March 08

How come when Mark McGwire cheated, it was a "dietary supplement" and people were ready to over look it. Two reasons: 1) It was a dietary supplement, and not actually a steroid. It was a BANNED supplement, according to the Olympics, but not according to baseball. 2) It wasn't hidden, and he didn't try to hide it or cover it up when it was discovered. I mean, it was sitting on his shelf in his locker where a reporter was able to spot it. As a side note, McGwire DID get a lot of heat for the supplement, but it got buried in the feel-good story of the home run race. I don't know if race really had anything to do with it (since McGwire is getting villified nowadays), but his relationship to the media at the time (compared to Bonds) definitely does make a difference. Since there have been sports reporters, players that have worked with the media (or been well liked) have had their troubles swept under the rug (Mantle). Players that didn't get along with the media had their problems exposed under the harshest of light (Dick Allen).

posted by grum@work at 12:36 AM on March 08

I'm totally bookmarking this thead for further reading in the morning.

posted by DrJohnEvans at 12:43 AM on March 08

Furthermore thanks for answering me, I hope you read that book thats coming out so you can get a grip on the reality of bonds' situation grum. I'll be passing on the book. One-sided sports exposés (whether they are pro-athlete or blast the subject) don't really fit into my reading material. Besides, I don't really care about all the supposed details of the drug use. The summarized information in the SI article should be fine for me. Anyways, I already have a "grip" on the Bond's situation. Why you keep thinking I don't is kind of troubling to me. Is it a sign of a lack of respect for me, or simply projecting your own feelings about the subject on to me? Besides, I'm only halfway through my current book and I've got another one lined up for later reading. Hopefully I don't finish them before I get on the plane for my vacation next week. I hate having to buy books in the airport. Yeah but he's a cancer survivor and the French just hate him anyway... Comment icon posted by JohnSFO at 12:48 PM CST on March 7 I just want to give my hearty congrats to JohnSFO for this comment. I must have missed it before when I was reading this thread, but I have to acknowledge how wonderfully sly it is. Bravo!

posted by grum@work at 12:50 AM on March 08

greg, i was with you in the beginning, before you went off the deep end. grum is actually partially agreeing with you. you know, no one has to "win" every time.

posted by ninjavshippo at 01:49 AM on March 08

For the record, I wrote in a August 1, 2005 SF thread the following: Despite being a lifelong Giants fan, I have no choice but to believe Barry Bonds was juiced at least during his record-breaking 2000 season, but not before. It is my unfounded, speculative belief that Bonds, after watching McGwire and Sosa get all the attention in 1998, said "OK, if they're gonna cheat, I can cheat even better because I'm a better hitter than both of them." Reporters Fainuru-Wada and Williams said essentially the same thing about Bonds' motive for turning to the juice in their interview with Tom Verducci of SI.com (Verducci scored the pre-death interview in which Ken Caminiti admitted juicing). Although I believe Bonds and others are guilty of steroid use, I believe that many more people knew than will ever admit it; from Bud Selig to Don Fehr to Tony LaRussa to Dusty Baker to George Steinbrenner to...heck, to Bob Uecker, and everybody was just so relieved that after it nearly collapsed on itself in the '90s, people were feeling good about baseball again (and, more importantly, watching it). Nobody wanted to be the one to step into the circle and wring the neck of the proverbial golden goose. The goose is now dead, and we are better for it. You must admit that it is a good thing that future generations will -- hopefully -- reject the notion that an athlete must have chemical assistance to become an MVP. Whodunit? It didn't begin with Jose Canseco; all he had was innuendo and inconsistent, dubious stories (not to say they were all lies). So how did it happen? Three words: George Walker Bush. The baseball-fan-and-former-owner-in-chief, either on his own or on the word of his advisors noting the potential explosion of the ongoing yet subterranean BALCO investigation, made stamping out steroid use in the name of preventing children from becoming abusers a momentary topic in his State of the Union address in 2004. Apparently, unlike many Presidential promises, Bush made good on this one, going after BALCO with the vigor one would associate with a greater threat to the general public. Perhaps we could call it "The War on Ster-ror." Regarding Fainaru-Wada (what the heck kinda name is that?) and Williams; they've been heralded as ace reporters and thorough investigative journalists. I know that this story didn't write itself, but I'm with bdaddy in the sense that this story would have been impossible without their access to information they weren't legally allowed to see. I agree that the book, judging from the publicity surrounding the SI excerpt, seems like an assassin-worthy hit job on Bonds (Williams: "[Bonds'] ex-girlfriend reported...sexual mysfunction") more than a comprehensive, objective work about the issues raised by the BALCO investigation, which was the rationale when the reporting duo bylined the Chron story of the leaked testimony of Jason Giambi. And as long as we're all focusing our lenses on Bonds to eke some sort of admission of guilt out of him, I say lets put a mirror in front of F-Wada and Williams and ask about the propriety of using illegally "obtained" grand jury testimony and secret recordings. If Bonds isn't squeaky clean, neither are they.

posted by L.N. Smithee at 04:17 AM on March 08

Gregy: Stop turning this place into the "GregY was right and you all were wrong I am so happy the Tribe are going to win the next infinity World Serieses" thread. You've said your piece. If you want to go any further into look-at-me I'm Sandra Dee territory on this, write a column.

posted by rcade at 05:52 AM on March 08

steriods and betting you cant change the numbers but you can keep him out of Hall of Fame like they did to Pete

posted by Ohio,Ger at 06:43 AM on March 08

Hey irunfromclones. The Giants should carry a lot of clout with the radio station that broadcasts all their games. Second, the firing was because of comments made by the people about Felipe and othe Dominican players. The sports announcer and others that were fired was for racial statements and they deserved to be fired! Also look at all the posts about Barry. you wonder why at times he wants to be left alone! Barry is a outstanding player and should be in the Hall of Fame!

posted by BrownDuck at 07:28 AM on March 08

If anyone thinks that it was just a few guys on 'Roids - Raffy, Bonds, three or four more - I think you're clearly on something yourself. The Steroid story in MLB isn't that a couple guys juiced and broke some records - the story is that a few people started experimenting years ago (probably in the 80s), it remained very underground for quite a while, and then someone was looking for a magic bullet to re-start things after the disastrous 94 strike and a down 95 season. After that point, say 96 or 97, steroids started to be widely used among hitters. Eventually it will come out - we're talking 10% or more of hitters in MLB on the juice at its peak. The difference is that not everyone was maniacal about it like Bonds seems to have been - though it definitely should be noted that Bonds may very well have let the initial Steroid push happen around him - and then got religion when he saw guys he considered inferior to him as players (and clearly they were) breaking the biggest records in the game.

posted by mikelbyl at 07:42 AM on March 08

Apparently, unlike many Presidential promises, Bush made good on this one, going after BALCO with the vigor one would associate with a greater threat to the general public. Perhaps we could call it "The War on Ster-ror." IIRC Conte got four months in prison, plus four months house arrest. Real "tough on crime," that.

posted by Amateur at 07:59 AM on March 08

mikelbyl: after the last season of "no-punishment" drug testing in MLB (2003), they announced that 5-7% of tests had been positive. I suspect that your 10% number is probably about right, cheaters' estimates to the contrary notwithstanding. And IMO 10% is not indicative of a major, game-altering problem in baseball. Just another example of cheating in sports; no more, no less.

posted by Amateur at 08:07 AM on March 08

In case nobody noticed, we have a continuation of this thread today. Oh, and calling the Twins overrated on September 23 of last year isn't some amazing conclusion: At that point just about everybody, including their manager, was describing them as a major disappointment.

posted by Bernreuther at 08:09 AM on March 08

Amateur, that's where we disagree. I think 10% is a huge scandal, the biggest scandal in the history of the game after the Black Sox. I think it totally changed the game in ways that we're only starting to understand now.

posted by mikelbyl at 08:20 AM on March 08

Indeed mikelbyl, we disagree, and I don't think the numbers support the hypothesis that steroids have "totally changed" baseball -- at least not home-run hitting. I wrote a column on the subject. Also, for further reading on the historical trends.

posted by Amateur at 08:31 AM on March 08

I'm 100% with Amateur on this. This giant wagon is fodder for columns; the impact is on our impression of the players, not the game itself. Grum's "Willie Mays" link is well worth a read for everyone who is complaining about cheating. Gene Wojecneiskiowski's (close enough) column yesterday on ESPN.com is a prime example of the total bullshit harping that makes this an impossible debate to have. Talk about just rolling with the hype.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 09:02 AM on March 08

VINDICATION!!!!! - Im sorry I just did a investigation of my own and found out that all 200 sources, the day by day callendar accounts of bonds' steriod use found in govt raids, grand jury testimony etc., were just another conspiricy to drag barry's holy name through the mud....Excuse me everyone...I guess grum was right.... -oh by the way weedy the reason there was no rule agianst steriods was only b/c baseball players were not suspected of widepread use. As soon as it came out that players were using steriods regularly there was a total uproar, and we have the result we have today. Ya see weedy if players got caught 25 years ago, it would have been illegal now, and we wouldn't have this mindless conversation, so please never ever try to bring up the fact that it wasnt illegal when he did it, if there was nothing wrong with it, then why would they EVER ban steriods. Agian if its not a challenge dont even try guys

posted by gregy606 at 09:15 AM on March 08

One more thing weedy, I guess you've smoked to much b/c I capitalized the fact that these were my OPINIONS, we'll just chalk this up to failure to recognize, or be able to read, because you blither on about how this is just my opinion, while i've already made that plain and simple for MOST of us to see. But again I really am looking forward to a challenge, hopefully not from a bunch of loser pothead children though...

posted by gregy606 at 09:26 AM on March 08

all of these guys cheated the last 15 to 20yrs lay off Barry

posted by byrdman822 at 09:45 AM on March 08

>>>I expect nothing but rational discourse and intelligent discussion in this thread. Your crystal ball, she's accurate. >>>that asshole lamp in the corner LOL. I know that lamp!

posted by JohnSFO at 10:33 AM on March 08

"Barry Bonds is was once a great baseball player."

posted by mr_crash_davis at 10:47 AM on March 08

Today's article in the San Francisco Chronicle has charts of Bond's top six seasons for home runs, post-1998 power surge, five best seasons, historical rankings, old-vs.-young stats, and home runs after age 35. The Chronicle reporters wrote nearly 100 stories on the BALCO investigation. If the single-season home run record was broken on the juice Which time? McGwire was juiced on Andro. Bonds was juiced on steroids. What's the difference? (There isn't one, to me, between two performance-enhancing substances that give you an edge.)

posted by kirkaracha at 11:56 AM on March 08

The only thing that Bonds could be in trouble for is perjury. Hopefully, he won't have to worry about his records, etc. As others have mentioned, baseball's steroid "policy" was laughable prior to the scandal. It would be extremely lame if they (the baseball "powers that be") decided to punish Bonds for their own crappy policy (or lack thereof...)! I'd still place the pre-steroid Barry up with the best hitters of all time. It's a shame that such a talented person has to be such an ass.

posted by slackerman at 12:10 PM on March 08

Wow, nice link justgary. I'll personally be surprised if Bonds plays the whole year or even next year. I think that since he thought that none of this information would come out because it was "sealed," this book will definately take its toll on Barry. As far as saying they (Bud Selig and MLB) should have launched an investigation a long time ago, they hit the nail on the head when Verducci said "In some ways, deep down, I think MLB and Bud Selig would love Barry Bonds to go away."

posted by wingnut4life at 12:35 PM on March 08

The guy is a debate machine, no joke. He made 1st team all-Ohio. Understand this says more about remedial education in Ohio than it does about what will happen in Our Courtroom.

posted by yerfatma at 12:41 PM on March 08

You can't legislate right and wrong. That's why the rulebooks are so thick, and why they get rewritten all the time. I think you meant that we cannot legislate morality. We do legislate right and wrong at every level of society. Rules or laws do need to be re-written from time to time as clever or unethical people find ways to circumvent them. Bonds may not have broken any baseball rules, but he was in fact breaking the rule of law: U.S. Federal Law The Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990 became law on November 29, 1990, when former President Bush signed the Omnibus Crime Control Bill. The law applies in every Federal court across the country. It places steroids in the same legal class - Schedule III -- as barbiturates, LSD precursors, veterinary tranquilizers like ketamine and narcotic painkillers like Vicodin. Simple possession of any Schedule III substance is a federal offense punishable by up to one year in prison and/or a minimum fine of $1,000. Simple possession by a person with a previous conviction for certain offenses, including any drug or narcotic crimes, must get imprisonment of at least 15 days and up to two years, and a minimum fine of $2,500. Individuals with two or more such previous convictions face imprisonment of not less than 90 days but not more than three years, and a minimum fine of $5,000, just for simply possessing. Selling steroids, or possessing them with intent to sell, is a federal felony. An individual who sells steroids, or possesses with intent to sell, is punishable by up to five years in prison (with at least two additional years of supervised release) and/or a $250,000 fine. An individual who commits such a violation after a prior conviction for a drug offense faces up to ten years imprisonment (with at least four additional years of special parole) and/or increased fines. CALIFORNIA CODES HEALTH AND SAFETY CODE SECTION 11999-11999.3 11999. The Legislature finds and declares all of the following: (a) The Legislature has established various drug- and alcohol-related programs which provide for education, prevention, intervention, treatment, or enforcement. (b) The Legislature has classified certain substances as controlled substances and has defined the lawful and unlawful use of controlled substances which are commonly referred to as, but not limited to, anabolic steroids, marijuana, and cocaine. CALIFORNIA CODES HEALTH AND SAFETY CODE SECTION 11053-11058 11053. The controlled substances listed or to be listed in the schedules in this chapter are included by whatever official, common, usual, chemical, or trade name designated. 11054. (a) The controlled substances listed in this section are included in Schedule I. (b) Opiates. Unless specifically excepted or unless listed in another schedule, any of the following opiates, including their isomers, esters, ethers, salts, and salts of isomers, esters, and ethers whenever the existence of those isomers, esters, ethers, and salts is possible within the specific chemical designation

posted by irunfromclones at 12:43 PM on March 08

ESPN POLL 1) Are you going to read Game of Shadows? 62.6% No 37.4% Yes 2) Do you believe the media attention generated from this book will have an effect on Bonds this season? 45.7% Yes, and he will not break the record 27.7% Yes, but he will still break the record 26.6% No effect 3) Does the news of what is in the book make you believe Bonds used steroids? 83.6% I already thought he was a user 10.2% No 4.3% I believe now 1.9% I want to read the book first 4) What did you make of Bonds dressing up as Paula Abdul during an American Idol skit at spring training? 68.8% He was trying to gain favor from fans and the media 31.2% He was showing a true, lighter side of his personality 5) What would you most like to see this season? 73.2% Bonds gets fed up with the media and retires 15.0% Bonds has a great season, breaks Aaron's record 11.8% Bonds has a good season, just misses record 6) What do you believe about Bonds? 86.1% He knowingly used steroids 9.7% I'm not sure what to believe 4.2% He unknowingly used steroids 7) Who do you consider baseball's single-season home run leader? 64.0% Roger Maris (61 in 1961) 22.0% Barry Bonds (73 in 2001) 7.4% Mark McGwire (70 in 1998) 5.2% Babe Ruth (60 in 1927) 1.4% Sammy Sosa (66 in 1998) 8) Does Bonds belong in the Baseball Hall of Fame? 63.0% No 37.0% Yes Total Votes: 10,260

posted by rxreed at 12:52 PM on March 08

•1998: Bonds hits .303 with 37 home runs, 122 RBI. •Offseason 1998-99: Book alleges Bonds, stung by attention bestowed upon Mark McGwire's record-setting season, begins taking Winstrol. •1999: Bonds hits 34 home runs at a career-high pace of one per 10.4 at-bats but suffers torn triceps tendon. •Offseason 1999-2000: Book alleges Bonds adds Deca Durabolin and human growth hormone to his usage. •2000: Bonds hits career-high 49 home runs, posts career-high .688 slugging percentage. •Offseason 2000-01: Book alleges Bonds adds BALCO-created drugs "cream" and "clear," as well as Clomid, a women's infertility drug, and Modafinil, a narcolepsy drug used as a stimulant. •2001: Bonds sets season record with 73 home runs and sets record for slugging percentage (.863). •2002: Book alleges Bonds goes on intensive three-week steroid cycles using elaborate drug cocktails. He hits 46 homers, wins fifth MVP award and sets season on-base percentage record (.582).

posted by irunfromclones at 01:21 PM on March 08

irunfromclones, so I don't risk putting words in your mouth: what are you trying to say?

posted by Amateur at 01:30 PM on March 08

I just deleted a ton of gregy606-related comments. Please ignore him try to stay somewhat on topic.

posted by kirkaracha at 01:30 PM on March 08

Amateur: IIRC Conte got four months in prison, plus four months house arrest. Real "tough on crime," that. Bush in the 2004 SOTU Address: To help children make right choices, they need good examples. Athletics play such an important role in our society, but, unfortunately, some in professional sports are not setting much of an example. The use of performance-enhancing drugs like steroids in baseball, football, and other sports is dangerous, and it sends the wrong message -- that there are shortcuts to accomplishment, and that performance is more important than character. So tonight I call on team owners, union representatives, coaches, and players to take the lead, to send the right signal, to get tough, and to get rid of steroids now. It's hard to argue that what the President said has not been greatly accomplished, with the assistance of Congressional hearings and pressure from figures like Sen. John McCain. Only the Congressional hearings were able to make both Fehr and Selig admit there was a problem serious enough to remedy with more than a fig-leaf policy that didn't demand forceful action. Left to their own devices, baseball doping would have continued to be an open secret.

posted by L.N. Smithee at 01:32 PM on March 08

Amateur- LOL. OK, I guess I am done with this thread. I'm not so much a Bonds hater as I am just disappointed that players can have so much disrespect for the game, and fans can so easily forgive or ignore. I'm an idealist that thinks baseball has lost it's soul.

posted by irunfromclones at 01:44 PM on March 08

Bonds' stats. 1998: 156 games, .303 BA, 37 home runs, one every 14.9 at-bats. 1999: 102 games, .262 BA, 34 home runs, one every 10.4 at-bats. 2000: The Giants start playing home games at Pac Bell Park, which is specificially designed for Bonds to hit home runs. 2000: 143 games, .306 BA, 49 home runs, one every 9.8 at-bats. 2001: 153 games, .328 BA, 73 home runs, one every 6.5 at-bats. 2002: 143 games, .370 BA, 46 home runs, one every 8.8 at-bats. 2003: 130 games, .341 BA, 45 home runs, one every 8.7 at-bats. 2004: 147 games, .362 BA, 45 home runs, one every 8.3 at-bats. He played in 144 games in 1995, 158 games in 1996, and 159 games in 1997, so taking steroids didn't increase his playing time. Before 1998 he hit .301 or better four times, and .262 or better four times (plus .261 one season). His at-bats per home run dropped during the steroid years, but it wasn't the first time he'd done that. If you look at his at-bats per home run, he hit home runs more often during 1992-1998 than he had during 1986-1991

posted by kirkaracha at 02:01 PM on March 08

grum, my respect for you as a sports fan and SpoFite continues to grow. Your statistical performance in the face of overwhelming dingbattery was like watching Larry Holmes dissect Tex Cobb back in '82. Well played.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 02:11 PM on March 08

I just deleted a ton of gregy606-related comments. Please ignore him try to stay somewhat on topic. Yay for kirkaracha!!!!!! Do I think Bonds did steroids. Yes. However, I still think that Bonds is an amazing hitter and even without steroids would post 40+ homer seasons every year. I think a big problem for Bonds is that he went from 49 homers to 73 and then back down to 46. Another problem is that Barry is an asshole, which is why the media focuses on him. Sammy Sosa also had a funny jump in production, but you don't see anyone bitching about him. I think that Barry is a victim of circumstance here.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 03:01 PM on March 08

Do I think Bonds did steroids. Yes. However, I still think that Bonds is an amazing hitter and even without steroids would post 40+ homer seasons every year. That doesn't even make sense. Until he started doing steroids, he wasn't pulling those sort of consistant 40+ HR seasons. I think a big problem for Bonds is that he went from 49 homers to 73 and then back down to 46. You mean "problem" in that he got caught? Eventually, he would have gotten caught. The Caminiti story came out, there was speculation... then Canseco... then Giambi... then the President got involved with making cleaning up baseball a big initiative... raids happened... Sammy Sosa also had a funny jump in production, but you don't see anyone bitching about him. Isn't it basically a given that something is up with him in the same vein? Giambi, Sosa, Palmeiro, et all... they're all tainted, be it in public speculation or actual proof. A lot of people fought the Bonds speculations for a long time. We've had many a "Look at the size of his head" arguments around here. I would presume that we'll see more expose stories like this, perhaps on smaller scales, in time. I think that Barry is a victim of circumstance here. No, Barry is a victim of Barry. And greed. And jealousy. And arrogance.

posted by jerseygirl at 03:19 PM on March 08

To cmsickman and solrac, guys, seriously, head press machine? Obviously you guys did not get my attempt at humor. I know his skull got bigger due to steroid use. Open your minds, breathe. Feel better? Beautiful. Sorry to get your blood pressure up with my feeble attempt at being funny.

posted by Desert Dog at 03:19 PM on March 08

Hate to say it grum@work, but your defense of Barry in spo-fi on jan 23rd is looking tenuos at best. And the "numbers" i was referring to then are the exact same numbers referred to above. All you folks givin' Barry the business now, check the spo-fi archives of Jan 23rd for more "rational discourse and intelligent discussion".

posted by mjkredliner at 04:36 PM on March 08

Pardon me, the word is tenuous, proofreaders. And so is my ability to spell it.

posted by mjkredliner at 04:41 PM on March 08

irunfromclones: I'm not so much a Bonds hater as I am just disappointed that players can have so much disrespect for the game, and fans can so easily forgive or ignore. I'm an idealist that thinks baseball has lost it's soul. If you aren't a Bonds hater, I think the best way to illustrate that is to acknowledge that there is plenty of blame to go around. Bonds didn't happen overnight. Bonds wouldn't have been possible without McGwire, and McGwire wouldn't have been possible without Canseco, and Canseco wouldn't have been possible without the MLBPA's ridiculous fear (pun intended) that 'roid testing might lead to testing for recreational drugs (hello, Darryl Kile), and the list of reasons goes on and on. That being said: Bonds is NOT being unfairly targeted because he is, purely based on the numbers, the best player in the game today and an all-time legend. If he shouldn't get this scrutiny, who else should? However, the unquestionable venom injected into the reporting is because he has a bad reputation with the sports media, which wields its power to distort the image of athletes who commit the unforgivable sin of not sucking up to them. If it could be proved they are both guilty of everything that they have been accused of, Bonds would be a distant runner-up for the MVP (Most Vile Person) award against media darling Kirby Puckett. But I have a feeling Bonds still would get worse press.

posted by L.N. Smithee at 06:59 PM on March 08

I think they could take Bonds' records away like the Bronx Little League baseball team and Danny Almonte.

posted by nort_12345 at 07:49 PM on March 08

nort_12345: I think they could take Bonds' records away like the Bronx Little League baseball team and Danny Almonte. Don't be silly. There are eligibility requirements for Little League Baseball, the most important of which is age. Bonds has not yet been shown to have violated any MLB rules. And if they are going to take away Bonds' records, they've got to do it to McGwire and Sosa as well. Don't make Bonds out to be a scapegoat, as if shaming him and sending him off into the wilderness will cleanse the game.

posted by L.N. Smithee at 09:13 PM on March 08

It's amazing how we (as a society) always joked about steroids in MLB and knew they were a huge part of the game. But now I am seeing that in the face of documented corroboration, the chairs are being pushed away from the table and everyone is taking sides. Bonds is going down, and all of MLB will be taking a hit because it happened as they were counting the receipts. And I mean greenies, red bull, speed, whatever. It's all fair game now. The second I got my mail today, I sat down on my couch and plowed through that story. Then I went on Amazon and pre-ordered the book. (Then I realized if I ordered another book to put me over $25, I would get free shipping. Damn you Amazon!!! You have made way too much money off me with that ploy). This thing reads like a well researched crime novel. My open question is this: it sounds like he was using undocumented cash from memorabilia shows to finance his girlfriend. At the least, I wouldn't be surprised to see him brought down Capone style by the IRS.

posted by usfbull at 09:37 PM on March 08

testing for recreational drugs (hello, Darryl Kile) Do you have a source for this (he asked honestly)? I've never heard that connection.

posted by yerfatma at 06:10 AM on March 09

Do you have a source for this (he asked honestly)? It is true, but a bit of a red herring. Smoking pot didn't kill Darryl Kile. To imply such is just asinine.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 08:21 AM on March 09

Smoking pot didn't kill Darryl Kile. To imply such is just asinine. What? But all those Superbowl commercials a couple years ago said if you smoke pot, you'd take a rifle out of a cabinet and shoot yourself...

posted by jerseygirl at 08:38 AM on March 09

What do commercials know? Our bus driver snorted coke and the only thing that happened was we always got to school early.

posted by yerfatma at 09:40 AM on March 09

I saw once that if you smoke weed you will run over someone on a bike in the drive-thru while trying to get your munchies fix.

posted by holden at 12:46 PM on March 09

The connection between Kile's pot smoking and his death is on the Jump To Conclusions board. Smithee only connected pot to Kile, not to Kile's death... although, I have to say, that on first read I made the same inference. Oh... and I saw on a t-shirt that smoking pot makes you root for the Mets.

posted by BullpenPro at 01:12 PM on March 09

Oh... and I saw on a t-shirt that smoking pot makes you root for the Mets. ...and the Cubs

posted by willthrill72 at 03:41 PM on March 09

If you aren't a Bonds hater, I think the best way to illustrate that is to acknowledge that there is plenty of blame to go around. I had plenty to say about McGwire, Sosa, Canseco, and the others long before I knew this forum existed. Even though this thread is about Bond's steroid abuse, I agree that any discussion of cheating or enhancements in MLB must include his contempories. It's a safe bet McGuire's sudden retirement was to avoid the media firestorm that would have followed his stunning decline in production during subsequent seasons without his "natural" supplements. Sosa wasn't as smart, and now can only retire in shame or shamelessly play for a league minimum on the weakest team in the league. Canseco, Giambi, the list goes on and on. Every one of them from Bonds on down should be stripped of their stats and records and banned from the Hall. And don't stop at the players. These clubs, the managers, and the executives all knew what was going on. The league should have NCAA type violations where teams forfeit draft or minor league players or lose a percentage of the TV and radio revenue- anything to get their attention. Better yet, have Congress strip MLB of it's monopoly status and let Congress legislate baseball.

posted by irunfromclones at 03:47 PM on March 09

Hate to say it grum@work, but your defense of Barry in spo-fi on jan 23rd is looking tenuos at best. Actually, I fully stand by my comments in that thread. Comment #1 - The numbers he put up in Pittsburgh were astonishing. Comment #2 - I'm just asking for clarification. Comment #3 - Simply stating a fact. Comment #4 - A comment about how he passed the drug test during 2005 (which is true) and how people would react to any Bonds story. I fully stand by my comment that people would spin any result as "anti-Bonds". There are enough people with a good "hate" for him. Comment #5 - A statistical-laden comment. I left most of the analysis up to the reader, but did point out some odd results. No problem there. Comment #6 - Again, more stats. At no point did I state that it was "proof" that Bonds was not using steroids. I simply pointed out that using that statistic as a means of proof of Bonds' steroid use might be a bad idea, since it would have to paint Darrell Evans as a user as well. I have no problem with this comment. Comment #7 - Probably the only comment in this thread where it appears I make a defence of Bonds, but again it's more of an attack of the methodology of accusation of his 73HR season than it is a defence of Bonds. I stand by it. Comment #8 - Just me correcting someone's previously incorrect/misleading statements. Comment #9 - Asking BullpenPro to run some stats. There were no more comments in that thread, so therefore I feel that I have nothing to be embarrassed about. And to clarify: I've never "defended" Barry Bonds and his use of P.E.D.s. What I've "defended" is the misuse of statistics to prove a point. Information about Bonds' steroid/P.E.D. use, as mentioned in this book, is a far better way to prove his use than to simply announce broadly "look at his stats!". If you make a statement like that, be aware that someone might actually look at the stats. And if the stats don't make Bonds stand out from the crowd as much as you think they should, don't get upset at me. And thank you for taking the time to read what I post. Even if you want to dispute what I say, it's good to know that you took the time to read what I had to say. I'd much rather get into a discussion with someone who does that than someone who simply regurgitates the same lines over and over again ("victory!") without adding anything new to the thread.

posted by grum@work at 04:57 PM on March 09

It's a safe bet McGuire's sudden retirement was to avoid the media firestorm that would have followed his stunning decline in production during subsequent seasons without his "natural" supplements. No, it was probably from the debilitating leg injury he sufferred through in the final two years of his career. Now, if you want to say "He's injured because of the steroids!", that's a whole other ball of wax.

posted by grum@work at 04:58 PM on March 09

No, it was probably from the debilitating leg injury he sufferred through in the final two years of his career. Now, if you want to say "He's injured because of the steroids!", that's a whole other ball of wax. You are correct. My bad for not being more specific. At the risk of being maudlin, I learn a lot from the likes of grum, rcade, weedy, and yerfatma- the askjeeves of the sports world.

posted by irunfromclones at 05:12 PM on March 09

Bonus fact: to indicate possesion by someone whose name ends in ess, the apostrophe goes after said ess (e.g., Bonds'). An additional ess is a stylistic issue beyond the concern of this piece.

posted by yerfatma at 05:46 PM on March 09

O.K. here is a wild idea. Since at the time most people are discussing baseball didn't have a steriod policy, Bud Selig himself could have shot up Barry Bonds with roids and it wouldn't matter as far as the record book goes. And people that want to say steroids were ILLEGAL, has anyone else ever had records stripped for breaking LAWS that were not against the rules of baseball?

posted by Fade222 at 09:51 PM on March 09

I decided to ask my dad about what he thought about Bonds and he gave me possibly the best analogy I've heard. "Maybe he got ripped just by lifting weights, but its doubtful seeing as you can't lift weights with your face."

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 12:18 PM on March 10

George Will says Let Bonds' records stand. Eight out of ten San Francisco Chronicle sports reporters would still vote Bonds into the Hall of Fame. Other papers' reporters have more mixed reactions. Bad Reporter blames GALCO for transforming Bonds into Paula Abdul.

posted by kirkaracha at 04:13 PM on March 10

For the record, it is spelled "M-c-G-w-i-r-e." Can we get that right?

posted by usfbull at 11:23 PM on March 10

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