I'm with rcade. (You can read into that all you want). No read closely because there's going to be a real truth revealed in this post: Most of you arguing that gays shouldn't shower with straights have likley done so. Now, showering with a unknown gay guy isn't a problem, because he looks, talks and acts like virtually anyone else in the shower. (Trust me on this - I go to the 'gayest' YMCA in the whole city. ) If you engage in any activity that involves hitting the showers, you have showered with a gay guy. Now, the unknown gay guy isn't an issue - however, if that man chooses to confide in you that he is gay - because he feels your friendship can handle it, or because he just doesn't want to continue living as some kind of liar, or even because it would amuse him to see you squirm - and it does become a problem - then the problem isn't him - it's you. Nothing has changed except your knowledge. The problem is you. And I have as much tolerance for that kind of bullshit as you do for gay people. It's like a taste of your own medicine. You really want to know how gay people act in the shower when there are no mysteries? They clean themselves. Maybe some of them think you're attractive - but most of them are just like you with girls - deathly afraid of ever approaching the subject for fear of rejection (coupled with the added fear of actually unleashing pysical violence). Translation - nothing happens that you don't want to happen. Gay people aren't out there grabbing straights and trying to make them gay. Gay people aren't cornering straights outside bars and beating the shit out of them. Straight people are doing that to gay people, though. Everywhere.
Nobody on Amaechi's team knew he was gay before he just now told the world, and one would assume he was surrounded by naked nall players for a long time. Now, I don't know about other guys, but when I'm sexually aroused, I often get an erection. It's pretty obvious if I'm naked. I assume Amaechi's would be, too. If none of his teammates knew, then it stands to reason that Amaechi wasn't getting aroused by all the naked men in the locker room. None of his old teammates are saying, "Oh, yeah, we noticed that; we all thought it was just priapism, or maybe he was daydreaming about cheerleaders.". For whatever reason, whether it was fear, or lack of attraction to his teammates, or professionalism, Amaechi as able to keep from being aroused in the locker room. And that's the whole story. Maybe it was easy for him, maybe it was a struggle, maybe he just kept a focus on basketball and avoided looking at teammates he was aroused by. Whatever the explanation, he conducted himself as a professional, didn't harrass any teammates, and even waited until he was retired to make his announcement, in order not to upset team chemistry, knowing that there might be players he depended on and who depended on him who wouldn't or couldn't display the professional attitude he did. Tim Hardaway is one of those players; what he's doing now is sexual harrassment. What he's doing now is unprofessional. It's not surprising. Maybe most straight guys wouldn't be able to control their hormones in a locker room full of women. Maybe Hardaway thinks, "If I were in that situation, it would be cool for me to have an erection in the shower." Few of his hypothetical female teammates would. We'll never know. It's a matter of self-control. Amaechi clearly has it, and Hardaway clearly doesn't.
Since no one is buying my shower stalls in every locker room idea maybe we could institue the following so that evey man could reaffirm his hetero-ness while bathing: http://blogofwishes.com/wp-
content/uploads/2006/07/
ShowerBreasts1.jpg
I'm with Weedy. (You can read into that all you want.)
I would be aroused by showering with women. Sorry. Guys who say otherwise also claim they read Playboy for the articles.
Eh, I like free speech. We should let people express themselves so we truly know them. I am not homophobic, because I dont fear gays. Do I respect their lifestyle, no. Do I have any friends that are gay, no. However I am not into persecuting, which can only be done through actions not words by the way, so in the regard I dont bother them. You are never going to be able to tell a whole segment of the population that they have to accept something that they deem incredibly immoral. I assure I dont think that I am morally sound all the time but I tend to not fight nature. If being gay werent a decision thing, like being a thief or crack head, I think there wouldnt still be all this fuss. But all of this revolves around a choice. We dont have to respect, like, or embrace your own personal choice. And you cant even compare people not liking gays to people not liking blacks. A) you are born black you dont choose it. B) gays werent enslaved then actively discriminated against. I'd say they havent been through anything of note, as a group, that makes their cause so special.
Okay, while I don't agree with Hardaway and think his opinion is just that, an opinion. It is an ignorant one for sure, but again it's his opinion. It's unfortunate that in today's world there is still this kind of backward thinking, but how many people here have listened to Rush Limbaugh say vurtually the same thing and not get offended? To say that Hardaway has committed sexual harassment is ludicrous, though. What he has committed is SEXUAL DISCRIMINATION. As a black man, I would think he understood what discrimination felt like, and would be among those less willing to commit it. It just goes to show that discrimination runs rampant throught our society. Oh, and I know this is old news, but did it bother anyone else the Michael Richards (Kramer) was villified for racial slurs when he was responding to hecklers shouting racial slurs at him. Um, I do not use those words myself, but I'm trying to put myself in his shoes. I'm trying to do my job, some idiots keep yelling racially motivated slurs at me, I finally blow up and then I yell racial things back at them. Childish yes, but I don't feel that constitutes racism. What it constituted was someone losing their cool and sinking to the level of those idiots. I know this was off the subject of Hardaway, but I'm curious how many other people felt like this. Anyway, I think that Hardaway is expressing how he feels, and that there is nothing wrong with that. Would you rather know that his opinion is of such or not? Myself, I like to know what subjets to avoid when speaking to prejudiced individuals so we don't end up causing a scene whe I feel the urge to bitch-slap them over their stupidity. Of course knowing they were like this would prevent me from having to long a cht with them. However, I'm sick of people not being able to voice their opinions in this country anymore. I've hung out and went to places with many homosexuals. Does that make me gay? No, but I still wouldn't shower with them. :) Oh, and one last thought, Do you think the fact that Hardaway apologized means he has changed his whole outlook on homosexuals?
"While you're indulging in some fantasy about choosing who you'd like to share a foxhole with--I didn't know you got to pick--" Well you may not know military units are broken down into squad size, approximately 12 men. Like basketball but with much more at stake. "In either scenario, make sure you imagine yourself surrounded by the Creeping Gay Horde." Date who you want dude I don't really care but I don't want to hear the intimate details of your lifestyle choice and problems with your husband. And you guys are a creeping horde everything today is gay gay gay gay. Hollywood and the supporting media is creating the gay state. Enough already.
This week with all the threads and idiot commentary about homosexuality has been fun. I am not quite sure what we'll do next week to top this, but I do have some suggestions. Everyone goes for a colorectal cancer screening. If there's some way to check our brain function capacity through our assholes, we will sign up for that too. Then we cruise to our local spa and everyone gets a complete bikini wax, even you dudes. After that, I thought it would be fun to put fireworks in our polyester pants and light them. The fire blankets available to put out the trouser inferno will have poison ivy all over it, so we can be burny and itchy. After that, it's an afternoon of Carrot Top movies while we are alternately pepper-sprayed and doused in kerosene. Next week is going to be awesome. I hope you all show up for the fun.
And you cant even compare people not liking gays to people not liking blacks. A) you are born black you dont choose it. Huge fan of this argument. Remind me about all the perks that come with being gay that cause people to decide to be gay.
I just want someone to tell me (well, all of us, really) what the "gay lifestyle" is.
I'm here to help! "The gay lifestyle is for me," said James Miller, an Oklahoma City father of four who recently moved to Provincetown, MA, to pursue a career in bath-house management. "When I was a family man, I constantly had to worry about things like taking the kids to Little League practice, paying for their braces, and remembering my wife's birthday. But now that I'm gay, I'm finally free to focus all my energy on having non-stop, mind-blowing anal sex."
Good call, hellamarine. It's discrimination, not harrassment. I was wrong. What Hardaway is condoning is harrassment. If he was on a team, acting that way towards a gay player, it would be harrassment. But it's discrimination, because it's general, and from afar. Good point; my mistake.
A) you are born black you dont choose it. B) gays werent enslaved then actively discriminated against. Okay. Back up. What? To address your first point, being gay isn't a choice (unless your bi and you decide dating one gender is easier for you than the other). Do you believe that Ted Haggard is "cured of the gay" after his "re-hab"? As for your second point, both parties are suffering through civil rights issues. I don't want to hear any crap about who "has it worse". All parties involved have/are made to be second class citizens, not only in public opinion but under the rule of law. There's no point in comparing. Its the same issue. You can't claim to be for civil rights because you're not racist if you are still homophobic. Civil rights are supposed to be all encompassing and inclusive. If you start picking and choosing who gets what rights it makes it easier for others to infringe upon if not outright deny you your own rights. I'd say they havent been through anything of note, as a group, that makes their cause so special. They can't marry the person they love based on gender. I think there would be quite a stir if we weren't allowed to marry the person we loved based on color, creed, or nationality, don't you? Look up thread there, there's a lot of expressed fear of encountering glb's in vulnerable situations (showers). What seems to be the most common answer to this fear? Segregation. Wasn't too long ago that society had laws for blacks that were similar, no? Again, I'm not trying to belittle anyones struggles, or issues regarding racism or sexual discrimination. I'm just trying to illustrate that they stem from irrational fears, and ingrained (if out-dated) social mores.
I'm here to help! "The gay lifestyle is for me," said James Miller, an Oklahoma City father of four who recently moved to Provincetown, MA, to pursue a career in bath-house management. So if all the gays are in P-Town, what's everybody so worried about? Sheesh. Nothing to see here, move on...
I just want someone to tell me (well, all of us, really) what the "gay lifestyle" is. I think it has to do with the ability of a white man to dress nicely and dance.
All I know is that they're all evil. Shower with them? No freaking way. They'll eat you without a second thought. And don't bother trying to sleep around one. They'll eat your brain. And then they make those evil little baloon animals and have the flowers that squirt water in your face. Ha ha. Very funny you evil bastard. And what do you think those big feet are for? I'll tell you exactly what they're for. They're to STOMP you with. OK, I'm going to exercise my freedom of speech. I HATE CLOWNS!!
Has anyone here ever actually seen the inside of a professional locker room? They are 200 million plus dollar facilities. They DO have individual stalls for showering. I think everyone is getting confused and imagining their old high school which had one huge room with 40 shower heads on the walls. As far as "showering with" another man...I do not care if he is gay or not, it is not happening with me.
I happen to be a member of the last athletic club in America without private shower stalls. I am infinitely more creeped out by the withered old men and their propensity to do everything naked (shave, watch t.v., chat about real estate) than I am by the potential homosexuality of the man five feet away from me trying to get clean. If it's that intimidating to you, do like a thirteen year old at gym class and shower with your swim trunks on!
I agree completely with tahoe. Good point.
Man, I like SportsFilter, I really do. I'm too much of a sports moron to comment much, so I tend to generally lurk and stay out of things. But this week has been really disappointing. posted by Skot at 10:54 AM CST on February 15 I just think this needs to be reiterated.
I find Hardeway's comments the same way I found Amaechi's. Boring. What's the news? Gay people exist? Already knew it. Some people don't like gay people? Already knew it. If someone straight announces they are straight, nobody cares. So why should they care if someone homosexual announces that they are homosexual? To me, the fact that he played sports does not make it news or newsworthy. The fact that some people would not want to play sports with him because he is gay is not news or newsworthy. It is just more publicity for his book. If a straight athlete came out with a book about being straight, he would probably be criticized for it. But a gay guy comes out with a book, and he somehow is considered brave or a role model or something. Boring. I would be aroused by showering with women. Not if it was Rosie or Roseanne, I wouldn't.
greymatters, when was the last time you heard of a straight person who was stomped to death for announcing that he was straight?
Apparently Tim didn't think he buried himself very well. He kept on shovelling.
Shortly after arriving in Las Vegas, agent Henry Thomas, who also represents Heat guard Dwyane Wade, issued a statement through his office from Hardaway that read, "I want to apologize for my comments yesterday regarding gays. My comments were offensive and I regret making them. I'm sorry to anyone I have offended." However, when contacted by Channel 4 before that statement was issued, Hardaway reiterated the comments he made in the radio interview. "I don't condone it. And if people got problems with it, I'm sorry. I'm saying I can't stand being around that person, knowing that they sleep with somebody of the same sex," he told the television station, adding he would not talk to a gay family member.
Interesting that the Commish had a statement of his own:
After the NBA learned of Hardaway's comments, a league spokesman said Hardaway had been removed from further league-related appearances. "It is inappropriate for him to be representing us given the disparity between his views and ours."
when was the last time you heard of a straight person who was stomped to death for announcing that he was straight? lil_blown_bat, taking the extreme to combat the mundane.
There's nothing mundane about this.
graymatters, here's your statement: If a straight athlete came out with a book about being straight, he would probably be criticized for it. But a gay guy comes out with a book, and he somehow is considered brave or a role model or something. Now, that seems to indicate pretty unambiguously that you feel there's nothing brave about coming out -- and if there's nothing brave about coming out, it must be because you believe there's no risk involved. Correct? If not, perhaps you want to rephrase your statement.
So why should they care if someone homosexual announces that they are homosexual? He's the first NBA player in the 61-year history of the league to acknowledge he's gay. I can't speak to why others should care, but I regard gay tolerance the way racial tolerance was regarded by many Americans 40 years ago -- as an important civil rights issue. I look forward to the day when no one cares to find out a player's gay.
Great point LBB. I also believe that most autobiographies of athletes do tell tales of sexual exploits. I don't hear the criticism when those books come out. The NBA has many players with wives and multiple babies outside of the marraige by multiple women. Most of them cheat on their wives. Yet that is acceptable and being a homosexual is not? What a shame. I believe the book is about how he coped with being gay in an anti-gay profession and why he couldn't "come out" then. What repercussions he faced and could have faced, not a tell all tale of his sexual exploits. About choices and tolerence and the lack thereof. At least that is what it sounds like to me from the excerpts I have read.
First of all, I keep hearing about tolerance and understanding. If you are gay then be proud of being gay. Just becuause you have a right to live how you want to doesn't mean everyone else just has to take it. We all have the right to our own opinions. Hardaway was expressing his. If you want to call him ignorant or stupid, remember, he has just as much right to say what he said. I think just a handful of gay people want to speak for the entire gay community. The problem is that being gay isn't a way of life. It's a sexual and emotional preference. Wheather you are gay or straight, you still have to breath oxygen and drink water to survive. As humans, we need to get away from labels and titles and take care of ourselves. If being gay isn't wrong then why do so many gay people get upset when someone doesn't agree with the "gay lifestyle". What ever that is! We all need to just take care of our own life and let dumb people be dumb.
Nice point, UC. This could be a great boon for the NBA, as I'd say it's going to be highly unlikely Jon Amaechi's going to wind up pulling a Shawn Kemp. But I don't think I can say it any more succinctly than this: I'd much prefer to shower with Jon Amaechi than Tim Hardaway.
if there's nothing brave about coming out, it must be because you believe there's no risk involved Of course, there is a risk. There is a risk in everything. People get killed or injured or discriminated against because they are gay. People also get killed or injured or discriminated against because they are not gay. Or because they are black. Or because they are white. Or because they are Hispanic. Or because they are Asian. Or because they are Middle Eastern. Or because they are Christian. Or because they are Jewish. Or because they are Muslim. Or because they are [add virtually any adjective you wish here]. As much as some would like to assume it or argue it, gays do not have a monopoly on being discriminated against. They just get more publicity for it now. People "come out" all the time. I dream of the day when "coming out" does not foster a rash of media exploitation and sensationalism leading, ultimately, to nothing at all. perhaps you want to rephrase your statement Nope. Right or wrong, stupid or not, I stand by it.
I hope its not to late for Mr. Hardaway to change his thoughts on gays. When I was young and stupid I felt the same way he does now. I had no reason to to dislike gay people, in fact I didn't know any, I was just ignorant and foolish. Now that I'm older and have met and befreinded some really cool gay guys I feel ashamed at the way I used to be. I hope someday T.H will change his thoughts to.
I happen to be a member of the last athletic club in America without private shower stalls. I am infinitely more creeped out by the withered old men and their propensity to do everything naked (shave, watch t.v., chat about real estate) than I am by the potential homosexuality of the man five feet away from me trying to get clean. Amen.
It's hate speech, and there is nothing wrong with pointing that out. Hardaway has the right to spout it. Now, as anyone who chooses to exercise their First Amendment rights, he has to live with the consequences. Remember, the First Amendment only guarantees that you can say it. It doesn't guarantee that people continue to admire you/support you/buy your stuff just because you exercised your FA rights. By the way, lil brown bat, your comment on straight bashing of course made me look it up. en.wikipedia.org Interesting, I had no idea 2% of hate crime was directed against heterosexuals.
