Let's face the fact that we DO know, which is that one coach (not the entire NFL) admitted that he was doing this illegal taping since he became coach in 2000. I believe this is all about him, not the Patriots. The team is full of talent and team players. I like the players and the way they band together. But, this isn't about them, it is about their coach. Now, in the SB victories over the Rams, Panthers, and Eagles, they were all very close games. In fact, one might argue that any of those could have gone to either team. But, any advantage no matter how small we might consider it, it still an advantage in an otherwise equal playing field. Any advantage could give you the necessary 3 pts. you would need to sneak out a victory. If anyone could give me a really good and rational explanation of "WHY" the tapes were destroyed, I might be a bit more able to let this go. There is no valid explanation I could have thought of. I know they say they reserve the right to go back and revisit this issue, but why would they destroy the evidence that Belichick admitted to? He confessed he did it. You would keep the proof and lock it up - not throw it away. Goodell cannot really explain other than to say "yep, he cheated so let's burn those tapes so they can't be used to help another team"?
My impression of the major characters in our little drama, and perhaps their motivation so far: Arlen Spector: Playing to the grandstands in an effort to get some notice. With the presidential primaries in full swing and the Mitchell Report in the news, with the Super Bowl about to be played, he saw an opportunity to gain major headlines. His rationale for believing that the Patriots taped the Rams in 2001 is that an underdog beat a heavily favored team. Did he watch the same game I did on February 3 of this year? By his reasoning, the NY Giants should be under a cloud of suspicion of how they cheated. We're all pretty sure that didn't happen. He should look long and hard at the Bozo act during the Waxman hearings of this week. Roger Goodell: If there's one thing this guy ain't, that's stupid. He came down pretty hard on The Hood, but some think not hard enough. He knows that you could probably infer everything from unfair competitive advantage to child porn from the tapes and notes. He also knows that if he lets it happen, every team in the league will be under suspicion. Thus, he has the tapes and notes destroyed, sending the message to anyone else with such things lying around that the same thing ought to be done with any similar evidence. Bill Belichick: There's an edge to be had here. The thing is that the league has said it's illegal. I'll do it, and invoke the old "plausible deniability" play. I'll just say that I thought I could tape things as long as I didn't use them in the game I was taping. this play was stopped for a 5-yard loss, and was flagged for illegal procedure to boot. Matt Walsh: There's a book deal in this somewhere. If I can keep the wolves away long enough, I can come up with a way to quit booking tee times and selling Titleists for the rest of my life. I have a confidentiality agreement with the Patriots. Maybe I can say they're going to come after me, and I can work a stall in the guise of an indemnification agreement. Then I can get my book deal before they find out I really don't have a lot more to add to all this. What people don't understand is that if the league really wanted me to talk, they'd tell Bob Kraft to lay off me or suffer some severe consequences. If the Senate subpoenas me, a confidentiality agreement is out the window, because as long as I don't hang myself, I'm compelled to testify by force of law.
That's what I'd like to know: what are the possible reasons for a Goodell coverup? Is it really that hard to guess? Instead of a bunch of people saying "It was only 1 half of the very first game of the year!" (which is an argument I've heard believe it or not) you could be looking at YEARS of games where outcomes were affected by this, including 3 SUPER BOWLS! Three freakin' superbowls which could have been won as a direct result of cheating. That is a HUGE black eye for the sport, right up there with the Sox scandal, like it or not. The integrity of the game would be in question. The modern-day dynasty (the Steelers of the 70s, the 49ers of the eighties, the Cowboys of the 90s, and the Pats of the NOW) may very well owe 3 of it's championships that qualify them as that dynasty to cheating. As someone mentioned earlier...if they lost 1 or 2 of those..would we be looking at them more like the Bills? So no way Goodall wants or needs this info to come out. He'll burn every scrap presented to him if he knows he can get away with hit.
His rationale for believing that the Patriots taped the Rams in 2001 is that an underdog beat a heavily favored team. Did he watch the same game I did on February 3 of this year? Sorry, but his rationale for believing the Patriots taped the Rams in 2001 is that the man who actually did the taping at the time has privately told people he did and publicly hinted to everyone that he did. This becomes all the more believable given the coach himself has admitted to doing similar this year.
I might be confused though. I always had thought that Roger Clemens had played a few games early in his career for the Boston Red Sox. Maybe I misremebered that. Yes, from 1984-1986. He also pitched for Toronto in '97-'98, Yankees in '99-'03, the Rastros in '04-'06, and (again) Yankees in '07. It's three seasons vs. ten seasons, so I think the "involved in professional sports franchises from the New England region of the United States of America" is a bit tenuous.
I don't know at this point whether or not those tapes ever even gave the Pats an advantage. That is the problem with Goodell's actions. We are left assuming that they must have given an unfair advantage, which is unfortunate. If making the tapes is against the rules, then whether or not they produced an advantage is irrelevant. You punish the crime, not the result. If Belichick broke the rules to get these tapes and they weren't even useful, then shame on him for being stupid.
Is it really that hard to guess? I can guess; I was more interested in hearing other people's guesses. I have to say that I don't consider your guess a very compelling one. I don't see any reason why Goodell would not throw NE under the bus...if it was an isolated thing. Makes him look like the squeaky clean avenger coming down hard on the renegade coach/organization, no? If, OTOH, a closer look does reveal more widespread practices of that sort, that the NFL has winked-and-nodded at for years...well, that reflects directly on the NFL. And that's something that the NFL might want to cover up.
He came down pretty hard on The Hood, but some think not hard enough. He knows that you could probably infer everything from unfair competitive advantage to child porn from the tapes and notes. All I can say is what have you got in your pipe? Child porn? You must be kidding....
No idea, but that's kind of an unfair standard to hold other commenters to. It's not as though we're going to be able to produce anything. which makes it a WEAK argument. It's that users perception of which he has know real knowledge one way or the other that can confirm/deny it. It's like telling your mom "but everybody else does it!" because you know your mom has no clue what Johnny's mom lets him do.
Arlen Spector: Playing to the grandstands in an effort to get some notice. Howard, check my link above. It might be that Specter isn't playing to the grandstands but trying to help Comcast strong-arm the NFL.
lbb: And you know, BB worked for the New York Jets right before coming to New England. And Clemens, of course, pitched for New York. It only stands to reason that there is a message about New York in all of this. Also, BB worked under Parcels, who then went to Texas, where Clemens was pitching. Egads! Texas is just as dirty as New York and Boston!
I don't see any reason why Goodell would not throw NE under the bus...if it was an isolated thing. An isolated thing that would nullify roughly 7 years of NFL history? Think the NFL wants to hear people saying "asterisks!" everytime the Pats are mentioned? Or when Tom Brady is being introduced into the HOF people asking "would you be in here if you went 0-4 in your Superbowls?". Like I said, it really questions the integrity of the last 6 or 7 years given as the team in question won 3 championships during that span. If Belichick broke the rules to get these tapes and they weren't even useful, then shame on him for being stupid. That to me is the clear answer to anyone who question whether there was any real competitive advantage. The fact that the man was doing it and risking getting caught, pretty much implies he was getting some benefit out of it. And it certainly wasn't to "catalog" a team like the Packers who he wasn't even going to play again the following year and who would probably have a different coaching staff and personel by the time he did.
One reason the tapes were destroyed might be to prevent them from being compared to the actual game film. For example- if the Pats had tape of the Rams pre game run through and knew the first 15 plays or had film of the goaline situations, and you could compare those tapes to the actual game film, you could then demonstrate how the Pats knew what was coming and show that by comparing the game film to what was known in advance by the Pats. If the Rams did in the game what the Pats had illegal film of and those plays were stuffed, well that would be pretty damning to the integrity of the game and everything accomplished by the Pats since the practice of illegal taping began. Bellichek a genius or cheater? It is starting to look like he is a genius at cheating.
I always had thought that Roger Clemens had played a few games early in his career for the Boston Red Sox. Maybe I misremebered that. Yes, from 1984-1986. He also pitched for Toronto in '97-'98, Yankees in '99-'03, the Rastros in '04-'06, and (again) Yankees in '07. It's three seasons vs. ten seasons, so I think the "involved in professional sports franchises from the New England region of the United States of America" is a bit tenuous. Lets not let selective memory get too involved here, this isn't a congressional hearing, you know. Just wanted to point out that Clemens was with the Sox from 84-96, closer to thirteen years than three. So thirteen seasons vs. ten makes his connection to NE a bit less tenuous, eh?
As for Goodell's actions I think Howard_T hit it spot on when he wrote: Thus, he has the tapes and notes destroyed, sending the message to anyone else with such things lying around that the same thing ought to be done with any similar evidence. I look at how NASCAR has changed over the years. There is a long standing process of teams "bending" the rules a bit to get an advantage. Each year NASCAR has to come out with new rules changes to counter what the teams come up with. Biggests example being the CoT putting all teams on a level playing field at the ground level. Now that Bill B. has admitted to tapeing since 2000 I hope the NFL comes out with new sanctions against him. If not then I loose even more respect for the league. I kinda feel sorry for the players who go thru all that practice time and film watching only to find out their coach has so little faith in their ability that he feels the need to cheat.
Furthermore, think of the marketing possibilities! All the Pats wins for the last seven seasons are erased. The standings are adjusted accordingly, with many new teams entering the playoffs. Of course, countless NFLers have to be brought out of retirement to replay the playoff games, which would be played in the offseason. Such a grueling spectacle would have to be played out during the offseason, one per year for the next seven years, so some of the players would be in their late forties towards the end... And the Bengals still wouldn't be involved, so, meh...
Also lbb, I might not be expressing myself to the best of my ability. I have been having some health probs. Um....what issue, exactly, are you taking with what I wrote? It wasn't some kind of criticism of you. posted by lil_brown_bat at 11:40 AM CST on February 15 Sorry, I did not think you were criticizing me, lbb, not at all. It is just lately getting stuff from my brain to paper (or computer screen) is difficult for me.
Sorry, I did not think you were criticizing me, lbb, not at all. It is just lately getting stuff from my brain to paper (or computer screen) is difficult for me. And I thought you placed your comment in order to avoid the wrath of her smug and condescending retorts.
Ah come on, danjel, I know Ms. Bat is a die hard Pats fan. But my opinion is the "Spygate" fiasco is getting blown WAY out of perspective. They got punished, can it be let go? I wish I could sometimes retort with her laser like precison and rapier like wit. I don't always agree with her, but she always has my respect.
They got punished, can it be let go? There are people in this country still fighting the Civil War (on one side, anyway). Although no one's died over this Patriots thing yet, I'd still give it at least two decades before some folks can move on.
Make their fans sit through eighteen rotten years of shitty teams that are the laughing stock of the NFL. Kind of like the Bengals. Make them draft studs like Klingler and Carter and Smith and Wilkinson. Hell, make them use the Cincinnati scouting team of the nineties to draft. That'll show 'em. Now if I could just remember what we were being punished for... Is having the dumbest ownership in sports a crime?
Aaaaand, inevitably: Ex-Rams player sues Pats for SB XXXVI loss
Is having the dumbest ownership in sports a crime? You've met the ownership group of the Toronto Maple Leafs? Hell, a previous owner of the Leafs spent 3 years in prison, including time at Kingston Penitentiary, a maximum security facility. On the other hand, maybe the Leaf ownership is stupid like a fox, they haven't won since 1967(or even appeared in the Stanley Cup Final), and still sell out every home game, with the most expensive ticket prices in the league.
Make their fans sit through eighteen rotten years of shitty teams that are the laughing stock of the NFL. Hi, I got to enjoy the Hugh Millen era and the ownership of Victor Kiam. Pretty sure out debts were paid in advance.
Although no one's died over this Patriots thing yet, I'd still give it at least two decades before some folks can move on. I'm still mad about the Patriots cocaine inspired run to the Super Bowl in the 1985 playoffs. Of course, one might argue that playing the 1985 Bears in that Super Bowl was punishment enough.
If we're comparing terrible owners I'd like to introduce William Clay Ford Sr, the genius who has kept Matt Millen employed for seven years and counting (and heads a franchise that has never won a Super Bowl).
If we're comparing terrible owners I'd like to introduce Leon Hess The Jets owner who, in 1995, introduced the new Jets head coach by saying "I'm 80 years old. I want results now!" The coach? Rich Kotite, who proceeded to go 4-28 over the next two seasons (including the 1-15 debacle in 1996.)
Matt Millen And he played so well with the Raiders. Guess that on field experience doesn't carry over to being behind a desk.
The whole thing is just a waste of taxpayers dollars.Hasn't the government got anything better to do than to butt in on the NFL?He got caught,paid his fine,the team paid theirs.Enough said.Get on with the offseason.Training camp opens in July.Season opens in Sept.Stop beating a dead horse!!
Of course, one might argue that playing the 1985 Bears in that Super Bowl was punishment enough. If that one is a 10 year-old me with a Squish the Fish mimeograph, definitely.
New England has been cheating along time, and the leauge knew about it and did nothing. I am so glad they got beat in the super bowl game, I guess they came up one tape short
Although no one's died over this Patriots thing yet, I'd still give it at least two decades before some folks can move on. That's an easy statement for a Patriots fan. Not so easy if you support any of the teams that the Patriots beat over the last 8 years. Especially if your team was involved in a super bowl or playoff game. You can put me in the camp as the "some folks" that can't just move on. Or drop it. Or forget it.
Maybe I'm way off base here but here goes anyway. MLB is granted monopoly and antitrust exemptions by congress. Because of this, the politicians have their boots (not foot) in the door prying out the steroid problems. Baseball itself was ignoring the situation and wasn't going to do anything so the presence of congress here seems fitting to me. The Pats on the other hand got busted. Fessed up. Got fined and punished. Now a senator wants to extract his pound of flesh. I don't believe the NFL has the same obligatory situatin that MLB has with congress. I never liked the Pats and probably never will. They called them dynasty. I never bought that either. Congratulations to them but winning 3 SB's by a total of 9 points is a real stretch not a dynasty. It's time to move on......
Congratulations to them but winning 3 SB's by a total of 9 points is a real stretch not a dynasty. It's time to move on...... Move on if you want. Suppose you lost some money on a bet and found out later, some alledged cheating was uncovered. Maybe you wouldn't be so dammed anxious to forget Belichick indescretion. I'm of the opinion if these allegations are true there be a substancial penalty involved and jail time because this is fraud.
Sure, you can say it's just a game, but is it really? It's a career for several thousand people, from NFL staff to players to marketers to vendors and more. This is not some issue to just blow off. Cheating can easily change the outcome of games, which cost a lot of people a lot of money. If you got cheated out of a job promotion that paid 20% more would you say "just forget about it and move on?".
That's an easy statement for a Patriots fan. It's an easy statement for anyone with the wit to see that some people will make this their casus belli for at least a couple of decades. All you need is the eyes to see other issues that have hung around that long, and it's a no-brainer. My being a Pats fan has doodly squat to do with it.
Whitedog, that is the first legitimate argument i have heard in favor of high level involvment in this situation. I still think that the government should stay out of sports, but your argument is a reasonable one.
It's an easy statement for anyone with the wit to see that some people will make this their casus belli for at least a couple of decades. That's pretty much the same thing you said before. I just can't help but to read it as: It's an easy statement for anyone (Patriots fan) with the wit to see that some people (non-Patriots fan) will make this their casus belli for at least a couple of decades. You have been a very strong supporter of the Patriots, and that's all fine and dandy. I just feel that statement would mean more if it came from someone without that strong fan connection. Plus, this isn't a story that has been lingering for 5 years. Some of the revelations (SuperBowl taping) is quite new. The Jets game scandal was in September. So this story has a grand total of 4-5 months of coverage/discussion. I don't know if this story will go on for decades. Frankly, niether do you. But let's not suggest that the people "with the wit" as you say, are the majority.
If anyone could give me a really good and rational explanation of "WHY" the tapes were destroyed, I might be a bit more able to let this go. There is no valid explanation I could have thought of. I know they say they reserve the right to go back and revisit this issue, but why would they destroy the evidence that Belichick admitted to? He confessed he did it. You would keep the proof and lock it up - not throw it away. Goodell cannot really explain other than to say "yep, he cheated so let's burn those tapes so they can't be used to help another team"? This is what Senator Sphincter, oops, I mean Spector would love to know too. Yerfatma is dead on with the article he linked to above about Spector's contributors. It is no more than that, otherwise he would have done something sooner. Now that there's a chance the Pats got one over on the Eagles, you better bet He'll be following up with this. For the notoriety from his constituents, if not for anything else. Move on if you want. Suppose you lost some money on a bet and found out later, some alledged cheating was uncovered. Maybe you wouldn't be so dammed anxious to forget Belichick indescretion. I'm of the opinion if these allegations are true there be a substancial penalty involved and jail time because this is fraud. Cheating can easily change the outcome of games, which cost a lot of people a lot of money. If you got cheated out of a job promotion that paid 20% more would you say "just forget about it and move on?". Gambling is also illegal, in MOST places and can carry jail time. This is not a NEW admission by BB. He told Goddell all these things when he got busted during week one! The only reason we are hearing about it now is because of this overzealous senator. Job promotions can be changed much easier than outcomes of professional sporting events. Demote the first candidate during their probationary period, promote the other candidate. Kind of a rough example.
Gambling is also illegal, in MOST places and can carry jail time So what! Gambling is illegal only if government doesn't get their share. We in St. Louis have plenty of casinos that are LEGAL here. As far as betting on football games, and getting cheated because of impropriated by one coach, doesn't diminish the fact the better was wronged. And you can bet, (pun intended) if it was the 60's and the mob lost alot of money due to the cheating. Belichick would be sleeping with the fishes. The only reason we are hearing about it now is because of this overzealous senator. The reason for the renewal of shit is beacause it no longer a isolated incident. The jerk (Belichick) has been doing illegal taping for approx. 8 years and why didn't football commissioner tell the public from the beginning it was going on this long. To cover it up, that's why, and there's no way the commisioner is going to lie to a United States Senator and be found out later and face some serious problems down the road.
An easy solution to these betting problems would be to not bet on football games.
If this is proven then Bellicheat should be banned from football for life. Then they should tape a hundred dollar bill to his forehead and leave him at the E. St. Louis Metro Link station at 3 a.m..
Does advantage have anything to do with the whole story. If they cheated ,they cheated. Having some sort of advantage should not weigh into the conversation at all. If you cheat and win you are still a cheater. If you cheat and lose you are a dumb ass cheater. What difference does it make. Because everybody was doing it, should that give the team who got caught a free pass. I still think the team that got caught is stupid. I guess this is the new attitude in our society today If you cheat and don't get caught it's ok. Why does everything have to be so complicated. To many theories, but I guess alot of theories is what makes this thread so interesting. To those who are profound please forgive my simple mind.
The Pats on the other hand got busted. Fessed up. Got fined and punished. Now a senator wants to extract his pound of flesh. Pats got fined for taping the Jets. No one said anything about the Rams and the Superbowl until a Senator "asked" about it. I dont think this is a case double jeopardy. Convicted of one crime now evidence of another crime surfaces type thing. Thats not to say that the Commish didnt know how far and wide it was when he punished the Pats, he just "forgot" to tell the public until the Congressional inquiry.
If this is proven then Bellicheat should be banned from football for life. Then they should tape a hundred dollar bill to his forehead and leave him at the E. St. Louis Metro Link station at 3 a.m.. posted by budman13 at 11:20 AM CST on February 17 I second that opinion.
Which part, the whining or the suggestion Belichick's live should be put at risk?
