FanDuel - WFBC

August 01, 2005

Palmiero busted?: USA Today and WFAN in New York are reporting that Rafael Palmeiro has been suspended for a drug policy violation. USA Today also reports that it was immediately appealed.
mlb.com just made an announcement of their own. Wow.

posted by YukonGold to baseball at 11:42 AM - 97 comments

There goes his shot at the Hall of Fame. It seemed like some writers were looking for a good excuse not to vote for a 3,000 hit, 500 home run guy. Now they've got it. Raffy's a cheat.

posted by rocketman at 11:49 AM on August 01

Do we know what the drug is? Haven't the steroid punishments been way longer than 10 days? [usatoday says he violated the steroid policy, mlb.com only that he violated the 'drug' policy, at this point.]

posted by tieguy at 11:52 AM on August 01

I just heard about this on local sports talk, and their point was that this will take away from some good baseball stories as everyone torpedoes Raffy's HOF hope (deservedly so). I mean, how about the baby Braves back in first place. Again. (Thanks Jeff Francouer!) All that said, Palmeiro must be the stupidest guy on the planet. TEstify angrily before congress. Check. Get 500 homeruns. Check. Get 3000 hits. Check. Get busted for steroids weeks later. Check. Did he think he wasn't going to get scrutinized?

posted by trox at 11:54 AM on August 01

Think the O's FO knew in advance? Think that's why they were pushing for Nevin? I heard something last week that a "big name" was going to be outed shortly...

posted by jerseygirl at 12:01 PM on August 01

Tieguy - I think the 10 days is exactly the tipoff that it is a steroids violation, and not any other drug. All the other players (Sanchex, Rincon, etc) got 10 day suspensions. And I think MLB's policy for first time offenders who get caught with other stuff is rather soft....a fine and counseling or something like that.

posted by mbd1 at 12:02 PM on August 01

Palmeiro was probaly on Steroids the whole time. He testified in court- probaly just to save his own ass. He is a guy who probaly is trying to get a few extras years on his already bloated career. I will lose all respect for him if he is a steroid user.

posted by redsoxrgay at 12:05 PM on August 01

So he passes the Keltner Test only to be downed by the urine test... Well, he fooled me. I thought he was clean. But, it would explain the soft reaction from him to the steroid accusations, as opposed to the type of reaction I had expected from him. Now what do you think about that moron Jose Canseco and his shitty book? Some truth was in all that bullshit?

posted by chris2sy at 12:13 PM on August 01

To quote Bob Costas, "He's also the MLB spokesman for Viagra, so I guess it's safe to say he's getting good wood on everything these days."

posted by LostInDaJungle at 12:14 PM on August 01

Not naming the banned substance is part of the collective bargening agreement that allows the testing. The press call it steroid testing when offically its an policy covering perdormace enhancing drugs. We'll never know they exact substance unless its leaked to the press. Dont get hung up on the labels. Fact is, he failed a drug test that was checking for a list of banned drugs that HE KNEW ABOUT...... At least we know now why he needed the Viagra.

posted by daddisamm at 12:21 PM on August 01

Does this now make Palmeiro a perjurer in Congress, and if so, what is the punishment?

posted by werty at 12:22 PM on August 01

If anyone needs performance enhancing drugs, it is the NL West.

posted by jasonspaceman at 12:28 PM on August 01

Bizarre. I don't think this torpedos Palmeiro's Hall of Fame chances completely -- the suspension will be long in the past by the time he comes up for a vote -- but it pushes him firmly into the cheater category. Anyone venture a theory as to how Palmeiro could have unintentionally introduced steroids into his body, as he claimed today? Did the local Krispy Kreme in Baltimore offer performance enhancing donuts?

posted by rcade at 12:28 PM on August 01

My understanding is that there are a number of banned substances (including steroid precursors) that are components of readily-available supplements that players take. So that may explain how he could have "unintentionally" introduced steroids into his body -- if he meant to use "unintentionally" as "unknowingly." That seems to be the standard defense to drug policy violations this year -- claim that you didn't know something you were taking including banned substances.

posted by holden at 12:34 PM on August 01

rcade is right. Whether he makes the Hall will depend on which way the wind is blowing on this issue 5 years after he retires. It could be a non-issue by then for one reason or another (steroids are brought within the laws of the game, so many people get caught the point becomes moot, the testing agency gets investigated and the results are called into question, I'm sure there are other possibilities). Honestly? I'd still vote him in, even after this.

posted by chicobangs at 12:40 PM on August 01

First things first -- where does the line start for apologies to Jose Canseco? Because that brotha got dumped on unmercifully, and yet here's Raffie picking up a suspension for the same thing he said Jose was lying about. I don't care if it was horse tranquilizers or St. Joseph's children's aspirin, it's pretty simple -- you have to be smarter than the goddamned bottle. These guys have personal trainers and medical advisors falling out of their asses, and yet no one can figure out what's in the stuff they're ingesting, rubbing or sniffing? It's not an acceptable excuse. As for the Nevin trade, mebbe so, Jgirl. Although signing Phil Nevin to fill a lack of power is like picking up Spud Webb because you need rebounds.

posted by wfrazerjr at 12:44 PM on August 01

Viagra... Nuff said.

posted by jeremyweber at 12:46 PM on August 01

Sounds like this has been in the works for some time. According to Buster Olney on Espn, the appeal had already been heard by a third party and was turned down.

posted by daddisamm at 12:49 PM on August 01

10 days for a liar, a cheat, a perjurer. Hope the voters remember...

posted by the red terror at 12:53 PM on August 01

Just heard on ESPN radio that his positive test went to "arbitration" first, which means that MLB has known about this for some time, maybe months. If it does turn out to be steroids, I feel better knowing that the sport is policing itself, to flag a future HOF prospect. The downside is Canseco now has more credibility, if that's possible.

posted by smithnyiu at 12:58 PM on August 01

daddisamm beat me to it...

posted by smithnyiu at 12:59 PM on August 01

Here's an article about perjury before Congress. Short answer is that yes it is punishable as a criminal offense. Unless he was tested prior to his testimony before Congress, however, I don't know how it could ever be proved that he committed perjury (i.e., that he had taken steroids at the time he testified). And even if the test results were pre-hearings, you would have to parse his testimony to see how he qualified his statements (e.g., use of "knowingly," "intentionally") to determine if he technically committed perjury.

posted by holden at 01:09 PM on August 01

You knew Canseco was right. You knew it. He may be a world-class dick, as well as a junkie looking for a quick buck, but he was right. And Viagra has nothing to do with this. Neither does any other product he endorsed, or any other legal pharmaceuticals he was associated with. Every athlete takes a ton of pills (including Viagra) for all kinds of reasons that aren't steroids. One has nothing to do with the other.

posted by chicobangs at 01:09 PM on August 01

If it does turn out to be steroids, I feel better knowing that the sport is policing itself, to flag a future HOF prospect. Except, then that sounds like they gave him special treatment too. Are they giving anyone else the pre-announcement secret hearing, etc.? Is that what they did or am I misunderstanding that part?

posted by chris2sy at 01:13 PM on August 01

Except, then that sounds like they gave him special treatment too. Are they giving anyone else the pre-announcement secret hearing, etc.? Is that what they did or am I misunderstanding that part? Damn good point. And it sounds like it might have been a gamble by MLB, which would be more damaging: the positive test announcement, or the leak that it was covered up.

posted by smithnyiu at 01:21 PM on August 01

Sexual side effects are indeed common with steroids use. Thats the conection with Viagra.

posted by daddisamm at 01:23 PM on August 01

I think there was a little more "special treatment". I think that MLB wanted to make sure that they had things right.

posted by daddisamm at 01:31 PM on August 01

In the words of Freddie Blassie, "I knew it, I knew it, I knew it!" I said the same thing when Sammy Sosa's bat shattered and they found cork inside (although I thought Sosa's bat was corked before I was up on steroids knowledge). And I'll be up front: Despite being a lifelong Giants fan, I have no choice but to believe Barry Bonds was juiced at least during his record-breaking 2000 season, but not before. It is my unfounded, speculative belief that Bonds, after watching McGwire and Sosa get all the attention in 1998, said "OK, if they're gonna cheat, I can cheat even better because I'm a better hitter than both of them." I hope that after his knee is completely healed, he can return and break the Aaron record while passing every test. But looking at the seasons Sosa, Bret Boone, Adrian Beltre, and Luis Gonzalez are having this year (if you know what I mean and I think you do), I don't know if that's a reasonable expectation.

posted by L.N. Smithee at 01:46 PM on August 01

So when does Giambi get nailed? I thought the new drug policy allowed violators a time frame to dispute before the infraction was publicized.

posted by garfield at 01:55 PM on August 01

What about the fact that he WAS one of the players, who were subpoenaed, not volunteered, to testify. Is MLB trying to CYA at this point. He just made all this look like B.S.. MLB went beyond making the point it can and will take care of itself. Now one of the poster boy's ,is guilty as charged. That looks real good. And despite the legal argument, when under oath , if somebody asks if you did , and you reply(under oath) that you didn't, then get caught, it's perjury!

posted by volfire at 02:10 PM on August 01

This is a story of an aging baseball player trying to save his hof chances by lying to congress saying "i have never taken steroids,period " He thought he would get his 3,000 hit , retire and never get caught fooling all . NOPE , not only have you been caught but you lied to congress . Now not only is your HOF chances in jeopardy but you can go to prison . Dont let the cell door hit ya on the ass on the way out .

posted by evil empire at 02:17 PM on August 01

L.N. Smithee -- I agree with you emphatically on the Adrian Beltre point, but all of those other folks are having the types of years within the range of what might reasonably be expected based on age and trends from the past few years.

posted by holden at 02:23 PM on August 01

Yeah right, that why the Cub's dumped him, To many "slumps". I agree with wfrazerjr, These guys have no excuse as far as the "I didn't know" thing is involved. Not to mention the oversight that should be coming down from the ball club. This isn't like I got the wrong vitamin, of baby aspirin. And as a side note if there are substances out there that are GNC available, and borderline, then I think the league should point that out in stead of all the guessing games. If I were a player and got busted for something other than direct steroid abuse, I would want my club, fans , and the country to know just what It was I got busted for.

posted by volfire at 02:38 PM on August 01

Can we _please_ not rehash the witch hunt here, pointing fingers at every player performing below expectations?

posted by cl at 02:55 PM on August 01

how about performing freakishly good the last month or so?

posted by garfield at 02:59 PM on August 01

So when does Giambi get nailed? Are you hinting that we should be reading more into Giambi's recent power outburst? If so, that's the unfortunate side of this. All of those implicated previously now become guilty again.

posted by YukonGold at 03:00 PM on August 01

Isn't that why someone make the bold statement that they did or did'nt? If you leave doubt, it comes back to haunt you? Or why the apology for nothing?

posted by volfire at 03:04 PM on August 01

How bout Bret Boone who has fallen off the face of the world? ;-) Also....... Just heard Jose on ESPN Radio. He cliams that there is no way Rafi would be juicing after the scene at Congress. Jose says that Raffi's failed tested is either and "imprint" from earlier Steroid use OR "MLB is framing Raffie" He wouldnt throw Raffie under the bus.

posted by daddisamm at 03:07 PM on August 01

Typo - "He Claims"

posted by daddisamm at 03:08 PM on August 01

No he's just in a "Surreal Life". I think that says it all.

posted by volfire at 03:12 PM on August 01

All of those implicated previously now become guilty again. Lie down with dogs ... I think suggesting Giambi might be back on the juice is a bit farfetched, though. The man was apparently pretty damned sick last season on top of fighting off withdrawing. He may just finally have his natural strength back. I certainly hope so. on preview ... I don't know much about the science of this stuff, but an imprint? I'd be more likely to buy the "unintended" story, although it's still a stinky load of horseshit.

posted by wfrazerjr at 03:17 PM on August 01

is a bit farfetched i know. but his face looks like it did a couple years ago; ragin'

posted by garfield at 03:27 PM on August 01

THE NAMED DRUG IS.......ANDROSTENE AND IT IS WAS SOLD IN G.N.C BUT NOT NOW.

posted by tuffy_earl at 03:33 PM on August 01

I'd still like some comments on the previous comments on this from wfrazerjr, and myself. These guy's are managed by more people than a circus. If I'm the guy that made the statement " I didn't ever", I would want people to know what it was I was guilty of, OR lack there of. Pretty much accepting the 10 days and not saying anything leads me to belive in direct steroid abuse. I think MLB needs to let us know what's on the list. If it's stuff from GNC and were protecting the kids and general public, Would you want to know? I have 3 sons in different levels of games, I'd like to know if I'm buying him something from GNC , that close enough to call a Steroid.

posted by volfire at 03:35 PM on August 01

Was'nt that what Mcguire was taking?

posted by volfire at 03:36 PM on August 01

how about performing freakishly good the last month or so? Hey, you might be onto something... Rudy York must have juiced when he hit 18 homers in August 1937. And Chuck Klein, he probably juiced when he got 61 hits in July 1930. Don Drysdale? His 5 shutouts in May 1968 just had to have been from the steroids, don't you think? Oh, an Hack Wilson's 53 RBI in August 1930, that don't just happen without needles in the butt. And let's not forget Joltin' Joe DiMaggio's 56 games in 1941. And you know what? You won't hear many people with balls enough to say it, but Vin Scully has got to be juiced. For 55 years he's been at it. Most people start to slow down with age, but not Vin. And hey, far be it from me, but I wouldn't be surprised if some others like Harry Kalas and the late Harry Caray were doing it too. Say, I wonder why he died...

posted by cl at 03:42 PM on August 01

just bringing up a relevant rumor. guess i struck a nerve.

posted by garfield at 03:48 PM on August 01

Giambi would have to be a total moron if he was again taking 'roids . After being scrutinized and giving a backhanded admittance of using , he would be under one king sized microscope especially this season . Supposedly Don Mattingly has fixed his swing this season after refusing being sent to the minors to get straightened out . Now after alot of work he has his swing back . Plus last season he had a tumor removed which could most likely have been a direct result from juicing up . So the thought of him using again would be rediculous .

posted by evil empire at 03:50 PM on August 01

Andro is not itself a steroid, but it can be converted in the body into testosterone. It is found in nutritional supplements. There is always the very real danger in any nutritional supplement that it contains items that are not on the label because they are not strictly regulated by the FDA. The standard for proving perjury doesn't change with this new information. There would still have to be proof that he knowingly used steroids before he testified.

posted by bperk at 03:56 PM on August 01

chris2sy wrote: Now what do you think about that moron Jose Canseco and his shitty book? Some truth was in all that bullshit? Some. I have a hard time believing his claim that of all his teammates, only Roger Clemens was faithful to his wife. But the charges of juicing himself and other teammates are too explicit to be totally fictional. I know I wouldn't want to admit being in bathroom stalls dropping trou with other guys unless I was sure they wouldn't dare sue me. What burns me up about Canseco is his selfishness. He talks himself into circles every time he opens his mouth, saying in one part of an interview that he's breaking the code of silence not because he wants (or desperately needs) money, but because he wants the truth to be known. Then he'll turn right around and say something like he thinks that steroids can be responsibly used, and thinks MLB should learn to live with them. To me, looking at Canseco fairly leads one to only one conclusion: He didn't turn out to be the player he wanted to be, but teammates like McGwire and Palmeiro did. When he went down in flames, he wanted to take others with him.

posted by L.N. Smithee at 03:56 PM on August 01

Andro is not itself a steroid, but it can be converted in the body into testosterone. And hence one of the problems with drug testing. Some test (I dunno about baseball) test for serum levels of certain hormones in the body, including testosterone and other precursors with the problem being that some people have naturally occuring freakishly high levels of stuff. This is also a problem is cycling where they test for stuff that thins out the blood which occurs naturally in the body.

posted by jmd82 at 04:06 PM on August 01

So if I testify I have never shot anyone, Then go out after I testify, and someone hands a weapon to me and I Kill someone, It's cool? I just don't have to know who handed me the gun or what is was, right? And Palmeiro IS going down in flames. (turn on your local news)

posted by volfire at 04:06 PM on August 01

I look at it this way, there are people like Mark McGwire who, although was never caught, probably took steroids and will make it into the HOF. The true question is how many future HOF'ers and players already in the hall used steroids. I dont see it as a reason for him to not make it into the hall. He should almost be grandfathered in because he played in an era where it isnt fair to exclude him from the hall of fame for steroids because so many used them. You can ask how many homers would he have hit without them and I ask how many more could he have hit if he hadnt played against pitchers on steroids.

posted by rockin_the_suburbs at 04:11 PM on August 01

I think its interesting that the righthand google ads for this discussion are for legal steroids.

posted by graymatters at 04:12 PM on August 01

Volfire, you wouldn't get convicted of perjury, no.

posted by cl at 04:16 PM on August 01

So it's O.K. to cheat, because someone else did it first right? THAT'S a real hero.

posted by volfire at 04:20 PM on August 01

who in the hof have used steroids ? they havnt been around that long for someone with a hof career to have been juiced up . you figure they must have played around 15 years to have good enough stats to get in and a 5 year waiting period after they are done playing .

posted by evil empire at 04:23 PM on August 01

And I did'nt know who handed me anything, and I certainly di not know it was a gun. I would never resort to violence, period. Never.

posted by volfire at 04:23 PM on August 01

correction: i didnt necessarily mean anyone whos already in it. mostly the people who we suspect used steroids, never got caught, and will make it.

posted by rockin_the_suburbs at 04:25 PM on August 01

Such as? And If ole Rafel is the norm , maybe they will get caught.

posted by volfire at 04:27 PM on August 01

garfield - I guess I didn't immediately know if you were being serious or not. Regardless, I think the point that all those guys are gonna have that thrust back on them is inevitable

posted by YukonGold at 04:28 PM on August 01

Andro is cheating now, but it wasn't when McGwire was taking it. I really don't know how voters should view it for HOF purposes. I guess the issue is how much do you think it affects an athlete's ability to be a success hitter/ HR hitter? If you believe it gives a huge advantage, you have to discount stats of a player who get caught taking it -- even if you don't discount the player's prior stats when it was permitted.

posted by bperk at 04:35 PM on August 01

"as I look back, I don't have a specific answer to give". That's just plain ass lame. No H.O.F.!

posted by volfire at 04:45 PM on August 01

No worries, goldie. I appreciated your and the other measured responses. The 'well- i-guess-everyone-who-plays-well-cheats' argument wasn't the conversation I was trying to start. Giambi would have to be a total moron if he was again taking 'roids So would Palmeiro, no?

posted by garfield at 04:46 PM on August 01

And you know what? You won't hear many people with balls enough to say it, but Vin Scully has got to be juiced. For 55 years he's been at it. Most people start to slow down with age, but not Vin. And hey, far be it from me, but I wouldn't be surprised if some others like Harry Kalas and the late Harry Caray were doing it too. Say, I wonder why he died... Not. Funny. At. All.

posted by lilnemo at 05:13 PM on August 01

No, it's sad the way everyone looks the other way. If Vin Scully were black, he'd be just another good ball player.

posted by yerfatma at 05:24 PM on August 01

So would Palmeiro, no? Anyone would be but he needed 3000 hits before he can retire and solidify his place in the hof .... what i was saying is giambi kind of admited using and had serious health troubles most likely from it , so using again the next year would be stupid cause he will be tested regularly where as raffy may never have been tested , but by chance was and failed . busted . the fact that he had many believing his testimony to congress makes everyone a little more peeved .

posted by evil empire at 05:32 PM on August 01

I hear ya. I was just thinking of Raffy's own words. "Why would I do this in a year when I went in front of Congress and I testified and I told the truth?" he said. "Why would I do this during a season where I was going to get to 3,000 hits? It just makes no sense. I'm not a crazy person."

posted by garfield at 05:41 PM on August 01

If Vin Scully were black, he'd be just another good ball player. How do you know he's not? He could be black irish.

posted by lilnemo at 05:42 PM on August 01

me thinks he doth protest too much

posted by evil empire at 05:45 PM on August 01

I think it's called just plain ole stupid.

posted by volfire at 05:54 PM on August 01

Excellent summary here by Will Carroll of Baseball Prospectus regarding both medical and non-medical issues associated with this.

posted by holden at 06:11 PM on August 01

What I don't get is I've been doping all these years and it just made me...um...slower.

posted by smithnyiu at 06:14 PM on August 01

He needed the Viagra to counter the impotence caused by the steroids, LOL The real tip-off for me was how he addressed the Congressional Commitee. The anger with the finger pointing and loud voice appeared drug induced to me. Sorry bastard!

posted by mikemora at 07:50 PM on August 01

I believe the punishment for the offenders is too light. If you want to do away with illegal performance enhancing drug users, get rid of them the first time they are caught. No tolerance policy. Also, volfire, I hope if you are giving your 3 children anything from GNC, you have consulted an M.D. prior to doing so. Other than a multi-vitamin and 3 square meals a day, they would not need much else. (just playful insight, not an attack)

posted by jadaru11 at 09:18 PM on August 01

jaderu, there's illegal and there's against the rules. There are plenty of substances that are perfectly legal for anyone to take, but that are against the rules of various sports' governing bodies for a competing athlete to take. And no, that's not picking nits; it's an important distinction where drug testing for sports is concerned.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 09:19 PM on August 01

understood, however, each league can set it's own rules and govern themselves. If they want certain subatances out, so be it. Follow the rules or take your ball somewhere else

posted by jadaru11 at 09:23 PM on August 01

Just an example jadaru. But the question on the floor is if this is some B.S., substance, and I'm him why am I not defending my good name from the mountain tops. He kinda just said this is the policy and well, um, O.K.. I stand to lose alot more than just a contract negotiation. He's been around to long for this. Especially after the whole congress thing.

posted by volfire at 09:45 PM on August 01

From the very informative article that holden linked to: the Major League Policy is much narrower, banning only steroids and drugs of abuse, such as cocaine and heroin. Is it possible that he was using a "drug of abuse" instead? If not, I'd really like to revise my answer to question #15 at this time. Oy.

posted by grum@work at 11:03 PM on August 01

I've been gone all day but I am going to say this. I don't think Raffy took steroids. Let's face it. You can take Advil and be said to have taken steroids. I can't see him ruining everything he has accomplished to this point by taking steroids. Brett Boone I can see taking them. He hasn't done shit since the MLB started talking about getting tough on drug testing. He got released today from the Twins today any way. Sorry folks. Raffy is innocent on this one.

posted by dbt302 at 11:13 PM on August 01

baseball is dying. hardley any of the teams are profitable any more. the professional players make more money than the owners. its a lousy business. it wont be long. this Palmiero and Bonds thing is a joke that takes the fans for suckers. no doubt professional basketball is next.

posted by honest at 11:26 PM on August 01

grum, i think the fact that he was given a 10 day suspension means that it was steroids. i believe for other "drugs of abuse" there are different penalties.

posted by goddam at 11:35 PM on August 01

No its no possible grum if you heard donald fer made an announcement right after this all broke out saying that baseball would suspend any player found using STERIODS no matter there HOF status, or popularity, further proving that MLB's testing program works....yada yada yada basically the players union totally hung palmeiro out to dry.

posted by gregy606 at 12:39 AM on August 02

If he is on 'roids, he is a scab and a cheat. In my opinion that is much worse than what Pete Rose did...the punishment should fit the crime. There is no place for cheats in any aspect of life.

posted by jlbelt at 05:42 AM on August 02

baseball is dying. hardley any of the teams are profitable any more. the professional players make more money than the owners. Care to provide any evidence or is this simply a troll?

posted by yerfatma at 07:08 AM on August 02

Aside: Rafael Palmeiro has bad '70s hair and a porn moustache.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 07:11 AM on August 02

Since when did all moustaches become porn?

posted by qbert72 at 08:06 AM on August 02

John Holmes, man, John Holmes.

posted by wfrazerjr at 08:53 AM on August 02

Aside: Rafael Palmeiro has bad '70s hair and a porn moustache. A woman who obviously watches porn. So cool...

posted by smithnyiu at 09:05 AM on August 02

anyone hear an intersting comment on espn yesterday . palmeiro denies the story that conseco injected him with steroids yet his first season of hitting 30 plus hr's came the first season he played on the same texas team as conseco, his 8th season in the bigs . just a coincidence ?

posted by evil empire at 09:27 AM on August 02

anyone hear an intersting comment on espn yesterday . palmeiro denies the story that conseco injected him with steroids yet his first season of hitting 30 plus hr's came the first season he played on the same texas team as conseco, his 8th season in the bigs . just a coincidence ? It also happened to coincide with him turning 28 years old. Ages 27-30 are usually the "prime" for hitters. It should also be pointed out that Palmeiro showed previous slugging potential in his age 22 (.543) and age 26 (.532) seasons, so "breaking out" at age 28 (.554) would not be unheard of...

posted by grum@work at 10:18 AM on August 02

Ironically, in this comment thread all the condemnations of steroid use are accompanied on the right-hand-side of the page by a bunch of Google-sponsored ads like "Buy Legal Steroids" and "Buy Hardcore Anabolics".....

posted by ravenous at 01:19 PM on August 02

I'd still vote for him for the HOF for 3 reasons: 1. There is no way to know when and how long he used the steroids. 2. Even if he used steroids his whole career, there is no way to know how well he would have done without them (i.e. how inflated his stats really are). 3. Even if he used steroids his whole career, he may have used them where they not illegal and/or he used them when they were not banned in MLB.

posted by Bag Man at 01:36 PM on August 02

Well, at least I can say this doesn't change my stance on Palmiero getting into the Hall.

posted by wfrazerjr at 01:50 PM on August 02

A woman who obviously watches porn. So cool... Hey, I saw Boogie Nights!

posted by lil_brown_bat at 02:46 PM on August 02

No knock, wfrazerjr, but since we're revisiting your stance, I've been meaning to point out that it's circular logic: "You know what a guy has to do? He has to be remembered as one of the greatest of all-time, if not among all players than at least among players at his position." Basically, you're saying that to qualify for the Hall of Fame, a player must be great enough to qualify for the Hall of Fame. I think arguments about who belongs in the Hall of Fame ought to be about numbers, not adjectives like "greatest," because they are given generously to players in East Coast big media markets and much more rarely in places like Kansas City, Montreal, and Arlington, Texas.

posted by rcade at 05:10 PM on August 02

If baseball is dying, why is attendance up across the board? TV ratings, both nationally and in many local markets are ups. I would have to look it up, but I believe that most teams turned a profit last year.

posted by daddisamm at 12:38 AM on August 03

Basically, you're saying that to qualify for the Hall of Fame, a player must be great enough to qualify for the Hall of Fame. Couldn't have said it better myself. I think a guy has to be awe-inspiring in at least one way to get into the Hall. Can you name me one way Rafael Palmiero is awe-inspiring (and farking up spectacularly by testing positive after being so adamant about not using steroids doesn't count)? He was a very good player for a very long time. So what? I think the "Fame" part of it has to come into play. Of course it's subjective -- if it wasn't, you'd just have a statistical threshold to determine entrance. Is that what you're advocating? You get 3,000 hits, you're in? You get 500 home runs, you're in? That has nothing to do with a player's ability to dazzle or dominate. That's about just outlasting the game of baseball, playing until you are 42-43, and it's something many more players will be able to do with this era's better training and medical care. Hey, we know he'll never die, so let's fire up the HOF campaign for this guy. He'll hit those marks around 2010.

posted by wfrazerjr at 08:48 AM on August 03

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