FanDuel - WFBC

December 29, 2007

Patriots are perfect 16-0: with a comeback win against the New York Giants, overcoming a 12 point third-quarter deficit. Tom Brady's 50 touchdown passes in a season breaks Peyton Manning's record; Randy Moss' 23 touchdown catches in a season breaks Jerry Rice's record.

posted by kirkaracha to football at 10:42 PM - 167 comments

Bummer.

posted by budman13 at 11:22 PM on December 29

The game was exciting. Neither team backed down. I wish both teams luck in the playoffs, it would be neat to see them meet again in Arizona.

posted by Cave_Man at 11:44 PM on December 29

The Giants made the Patriots work for it, and the Giants could have won the game, but they made too many mistakes (blitzing and the interception) in the second half.

posted by kirkaracha at 11:49 PM on December 29

i have two things to say about this game. 1. i hope that even the people who dont like the patriots, can put aside that fact to appreciate what we are all witnessing. this is not much short of a miracle. the people of my generation who are too young to have lived through the '72 dolphins may never see anything like this again. i am a 49ers fan (yes there are still a few of us around) but this is a great thing. 2nd, for all the talking heads on tv who think the eagles and ravens, and now the giants have found a blueprint for how to beat the pats, think again. the thing that makes this team so great is not that they dominate everyone, its that they dont have to. they can blow out anyone. but if its a close game, they have the poise, and presision to win those games too. and thats the only thing any of those teams have found. i dont know if they will go 19-0. and if they dont, i do think the season will be a failure, but if they do, i hope we can all take a minute and celebrate the amazing achivement we are all seeing this season.

posted by elijahin at 11:59 PM on December 29

The Giants have found a way to beat the Pats, as did the Ravens and the Eagles. But to make it work, you have to be able to implement your plan for four quarters, and that's where the Pats will get you. If they can't whup you straight-up, then they'll wear you down, or worse comes to worst, they'll just plain outlast you. The fact that no one's been able to figure out how to beat the Pats for four quarters is a testament to how well coached they are. They adapt, the tools on the field are smart and fast and varied, and Tom Brady knows the field as well as anyone does. Twice tonight, he threw under pressure to spots on the field and hit open receivers right in the numbers without looking at where he was throwing the ball. (Try that, Eli. Oh wait, you do sometimes, don't you.) I do hate the Patriots, but they are doing something pretty remarkable here.

posted by chicobangs at 01:46 AM on December 30

The Giants have found a way to beat the Pats, as did the Ravens and the Eagles. As I stated in previous threads, Baltimore did make it work. Baltimore beat themselves. The Pats got a freebie and their fans will take it and call it "perfect". Ugly. 16-0*. Again manhandled by a wild card team, good luck against Indy, you're going to need it.

posted by Footballcrew at 03:05 AM on December 30

Footballcrew, Don't you think it's significant that the Pats are the only team in the NFL that managed to not beat themselves this year? You don't play the game to be flawless. You don't play to have a perfect QB rating or have no penalties or interceptions or hold the opponents to 0 yards per game or have every play go yard. If I may quote a coach who himself won only four times this season, You Play To Win The Game. And the Pats? Like it or not, by hook or by crook, by streetfight or attrition, they Won. Every. Game. Asterisk on them all you want. I'm not saying they're a lock to run the table by any stretch, but they did beat Indy once already this year, so you have to admit, it's highly possible they could do it again, especially in Foxboro.

posted by chicobangs at 03:28 AM on December 30

The Pats got a freebie and their fans will take it and call it "perfect". It is perfect. Fact. You could tell me the sun is cold and you'd be just as wrong. And I'm not a fan of the patriots, but I'll give credit where credit is due. To go 16 and 0 is amazing and you're going to have to win games where you don't play well, where you should have lost, and you're going to need a little luck. You're also going to have to be damn good, and the patriots are.

posted by justgary at 03:31 AM on December 30

Yeah, footballcrew, you're simply embarassing yourself at this point. Pathetic. The Pats are 16-0, a feat no team had ever accomplished in history. They did so with some tight games, and with some blowouts- no different than the '72 Dolphins. They aren't 30 minute games, or 45 minutes games: they are 60 minute games, and at the end of every single 60 minute contest for the last 19 regular season games, the New England Patriots were victorious. They did so while simultaneously breaking at least 5 significant records set by 5 completely different teams in different eras (in fact, setting 4 records on one play): most wins in a season/undefeated season; most TDs in a season by a team; most TDs in a season by a QB; most TDs in a season by a receiver; most points in a season. Another QB will come along at some point and have more than 50 TDs. Another receiver will come along and have 24 TDs. Another team will come along and score 590 points or more. And yet another team may come along and go 16-0 in the regular season. But for one team to do all of those things? Yeah, it was the videotape, of course. Or Baltimore or New York "beating themselves". The Patriots weren't playing with a handicap; there's no rule on the NFL books that says they have to win every game by 20 points or more. They won, admittedly with some close-for-comfort games, but they are still "W" in the record books. You're simply being ridiculous and insane if you think it's being "manhandled" by a wildcard team to... beat them. If they were 13-3 with losses to the Ravens, Eagles, and Giants but with the same TD and points records, and we were arguing "2007 Patriots: One of the greatest teams of all time?", you might have a strong case. But seeing as they are 16-0 going into the playoffs, you pretty much are a laughaby bitter fan of one of the other 29 teams spouting a lot of useless hot air.

posted by hincandenza at 03:56 AM on December 30

How bout that friggin Eye Poke on Brandon Jacobs?!?!?!?!? What a freakin ass clown! The Pats are classy team for the most part but blinding? That aint cool...

posted by firecop at 04:14 AM on December 30

Yeah, footballcrew, you're simply embarassing yourself at this point. Pathetic. My man calm the fuck down with this BS. It's my opinion. You want me to change it for you? Look at the damn glossary you typed and I'm embarrassing myself? Calm down please, you're 16-0, you're the greatest ever. There will you sleep better at night now? Like I said, crazed soccer mob. I understand they're 16-0, I just happen to know they are not perfect (regardless of what ESPN says). Not 1 NE fan will admit to what Baltimore did to them. Holding up signs that say perfect? Please. you pretty much are a laughaby bitter fan of one of the other 29 teams spouting a lot of useless hot air. Ahh the class of New Englanders. Forget the 16-0, you got your ass whipped by a 4-11 team and only got the W because of 2 do overs. You call that perfect? Does it hurt that bad? It's a game bro, geez, do you want to kick my ass because my opinion is different? Jets twice, Dolphins twice, Bills twice. Perfect? Come on. Gimme wins against 2 teams not in the Playoffs and 1 against a wild card team. The greatest of all time? You're killing me and actually embarrassing yourself.

posted by Footballcrew at 05:16 AM on December 30

I grew up a Bills fan, and I moved to New York and became a Jets fan. I have nothing but ill will for the Pats. That said, I have a few questions. 1. "Manhandled?" "[they] got [their] ass whupped by a 4-11 team"? I'm sorry, what was the final score of that game? Who won that game? 2. Jets twice, Dolphins twice, Bills twice. Correct me if I'm wrong, but those are NFL teams in good standing, right? Refresh my memory: who won those games? (And what about the other ten games? Do you have some ready-made excuse for why those don't really count either?) 3. Who's "we" and "you?" Gary, are you playing for the Pats now? Or did you buy the team from Bob Kraft? Either way, you should have said something! Congrats! 4. Did you ever notice that the first person to tell everyone else to "calm the fuck down" is usually the only one who's wound up in the first place? Thanks for the player-hating, uh, bro. You've brightened up my night of otherwise cruddy insomnia.

posted by chicobangs at 05:32 AM on December 30

My man calm the fuck down with this BS. It's my opinion. You want me to change it for you? ... Like I said, crazed soccer mob. This is weak, Footballcrew. If you want to keep an account here, don't attack people because your opinion is challenged. Finishing 16-0 is huge. The idea that we should all pretend they lost to the Ravens is absurd. Talk about sour grapes. The Patriots, as much as I've grown to loathe them, are as dominant as a team has ever been in the NFL, and they've done it in an era when parity and free agency were supposed to make that impossible.

posted by rcade at 07:18 AM on December 30

Largest point differential per game in the Super Bowl era Here's to hoping it ends better for the Pats than the previous record holder, the 68 Colts.

posted by kokaku at 07:22 AM on December 30

It was a good game to watch, and I'm not a fan of either team. Yes it hasn't been done since 72', and it's something to be proud of. Having said that, the monkey isn't off the pats backs yet by any means. They lose any game now and it will be like they kissed their sister. If they don't run the table, what will the season be remembered for? I'll tell you, the one they lost.

posted by robi8259 at 07:51 AM on December 30

Also, records set by the Pats. (Link goes to a photo gallery but it's the only place I've seen a complete list of records) Most, surprising? The first time the Pats ran the table on the AFC East.

posted by kokaku at 07:52 AM on December 30

I hate the Patriots, but hats off to running the table. Still, it seemed to me that the calls were really going New England's way, especially in the first half (the play clock had hit zero before Brady took the snap on that early 4th-and-2 call; the defensive back foul that negated a 3rd-and-14 giants sack). Teams know how to beat the Pats -- it's just a matter of whether they can stay poised enough to do it. If the Giants had held on, I was going to make the comparison between this year's Pats and the '97 Vikings. I guess I still am -- I predict they won't go 19-0, but I'm hard-pressed to say who'll knock them off. I'd like to see Brett Favre do it.

posted by ajaffe at 08:11 AM on December 30

Congrats to the Pats and their perfect record. It's sobering to see the level they're setting and know that we've got to play them twice a year. I'll be darkly amused to see the Pats go 19-0 and still pick in the top ten in the 2008 draft.

posted by Mr Bismarck at 08:46 AM on December 30

Disclaimer: I hate the Pats. Nothing personal against them, it's just in my DNA to hate all sports teams east of Pittsburgh and north of DC. I can't believe this Pats team. I just don't see how players can be sooo calm in a hurricane of G-men blue and about eleventy-nundred rabid Giants fans screaming their lungs out for heads to be put on pikes. But there they were, late in the game and on the bench, Belichik with his dry-erase board in hand letting Brady know what to change and how to do it. No players were pointing fingers at teammates, nobody throwing a fuss, nobody crying, nobody pulling a Jorvorskie Lane. Nope, they made their tactical adjustments, executed them on the field of play and came back to win the friggin' game. I think the Pats might be the Terminator. Did anyone see the Pats performing surgery on themselves during the game? Oh well, at least Eli lost*. * - on the other hand, Philip Rivers didn't have to lose this game.

posted by NoMich at 08:59 AM on December 30

My man calm the fuck down with this BS. It's my opinion. You want me to change it for you? Look at the damn glossary you typed and I'm embarrassing myself? Calm down please, you're 16-0, you're the greatest ever. There will you sleep better at night now? Like I said, crazed soccer mob. I understand they're 16-0, I just happen to know they are not perfect (regardless of what ESPN says). Not 1 NE fan will admit to what Baltimore did to them. Holding up signs that say perfect? Please. you pretty much are a laughaby bitter fan of one of the other 29 teams spouting a lot of useless hot air. Ahh the class of New Englanders. Forget the 16-0, you got your ass whipped by a 4-11 team and only got the W because of 2 do overs. You call that perfect? Does it hurt that bad? It's a game bro, geez, do you want to kick my ass because my opinion is different? Jets twice, Dolphins twice, Bills twice. Perfect? Come on. Gimme wins against 2 teams not in the Playoffs and 1 against a wild card team. The greatest of all time? You're killing me and actually embarrassing yourself. You're arguing a subjective view of perfection here which has no evidence. The '72 Dolphins played a ton of teams that were below .500; does that tarnish their record? How does one judge the best season of all time other than the record, given the fact that teams from different years are not playing the same teams? There is no team that plays the 16 hardest games possible (based on record). It's impossible. The number of "gimmes" as you call them is somewhat the same for every team, given a margin for error. It's designed that way. In addition to that, as was witnessed against Baltimore, the Jets and the Eagles, there is a level of parity in the NFL which makes going 16-0 very, very hard. Any team, given a week of their players stepping up, can beat another team. It takes skill, luck, determination, a little help from the officials at times and some long shots. There is NO great team who hasn't benefited from all that. If you think there is, please direct me to them. You have, to date, said nothing but negative things towards what the Patriots have done. You're a self-described martyr, acting like having a different opinion around here will get your ass kicked. It won't, but the condescending, repeating the same point over and over until you're blue in the fact style of arguing is contemptible everywhere. Yes, we know you don't respect the Patriots because they "lost" to Baltimore. We get it. Everyone gets it. Unless you have something else to donate to the discussion, we already see that point. You don't need to reiterate it. If you can't even muster up enough gumption to admit that it was a pretty brilliant season (TD records, point records, etc), perfect or not, you're a cancer on these discussions.

posted by dfleming at 09:47 AM on December 30

Not 1 NE fan will admit to what Baltimore did to them. Holding up signs that say perfect? Please. there are some teams who are simply good at winning ugly, in close games. baltimore beat themselves. ill admit that. but how many times have we seen teams make stupid mistakes and still win the game because the other team cant capitalize? it happenes every week. usually two or three times a week. how many times have we seen the pats have to come back from a deficite? it happenes. the difference is that the pats play methodical football. they dont get too excited if they are up by 21. they dont get down if they find themselves behind the 8-ball. they dimply play their game, which mostly consists of not making catastrophic mistakes, and waiting for their opponent to make mistakes. they are like a sniper. patiently waiting for the right moment to strike then doing so with lethal precision. in the case of baltimore, the ravens didnt make a mistake until late in the game, when it seemed like they had it won. that was fine with the pats, they got their chance and capitalized on it. then they got another one and capitalized on it. then the ravens fell apart. there is no formula for how to beat a team like this, unless you can play perfect football for 60 minutes. brady to moss isnt thier game. thir game is capitalizing on your mistakes. and if you figure out how to beat that, there are 11 teams right now who would like to hire you.

posted by elijahin at 09:56 AM on December 30

Congratulations to the Patriots and their fans on a truly remarkable accomplishment.

posted by Steeler_Fan at 10:23 AM on December 30

The Pats have been amazing this year. Their division may be weak, but its still challenging to beat even the lowliest of NFL squads twice in the same year. Jimmy Roberts made a good point on The Sports Reporters this morning: The Pats are getting the Tiger Woods treatment this year. People are questioning their wins when they aren't massive blowouts. Looking for any reason to point out a possible chink in the armor. That being said I think teams have established a blueprint to beat the Pats, but no team has been able to play the mistake free type of game to make it work.

posted by curlyelk at 10:36 AM on December 30

As a Vikings fan, I have to admit I'm bitter to see Randy Moss playing hard (and setting well-deserved records) for the Patriots when he dogged it with the Vikings. it seemed to me that the calls were really going New England's way What about the mystery call on the sidelines that went from a 15 yard penalty against the Patriots to a 15 yard call against the Giants?

posted by kirkaracha at 11:00 AM on December 30

Thanks steeler_fan.Some people just can't get themselves to see how good of a team N.E. really is.It doesn't matter what happened in the Baltimore game,the Indy game,or any other game where they fell behind.The bottom line is winning those close games.You can't give Brady second chances or he'll make a team pay as he did last night after Hobbs intercepted that pass.The Patriots have beaten playoff teams.Pittsburgh,Giants,Cowboys,Colts,Chargers,Jaguars,and the Browns if they make it.Pretty impressive I think.All the asterisk bull,all the"But Baltimore really won that game bullshit, just give the credit that the Patriots deserve?They've been down and almost out in a couple of games,but what seperates them from all the rest is that they have the killer instinct to win those close games coming from behind.Sure ,you've got to have a few things go your way,such as the boneheaded timeout against Baltimore and the penalties,but it's what they did to win that game.You can't give a well coached team with Brady and the talent they have on that team chances to beat you.No matter how you look at it,they're 16-0.The first team to do so in the regular season.Three more to go,and then that will be a perfect season.

posted by Ghastly1 at 11:12 AM on December 30

And now comes the "real" season. Here is where NE has to be as close to perfect as they can get. They will face 3 quality football teams in their next 3 games, assuming they do not falter along the way. As much of a Pats' fan as I am, I was not truly convinced until last night that they could not be beaten. This morning I am convinced that there is only one team that can beat the New England Patriots, and that team is The New England Patriots. In other words, if they give less than their best effort, either in preparation, attitude, or execution, they will not finish the season undefeated.

posted by Howard_T at 11:19 AM on December 30

it should also be pointed out that the pats beat the 2nd best team in the afc (indy) and the best team in the nfc (boys)all told they beat 5 playoff teams this year (6 pending the outcome of todays games) that is about a third of the season. thats still a pretty tough schedule. in regards to the close games, if they hadnt had them, people would be saying "yeah but nobody ever challenged them. could they handle the pressure of a close game?" people just dont want to accept miracles. they want to try to explain them. its really very simple" perfection is the absence of flaws. 16 wins against 0 losses is a flawless record and is therfore, by deffinition, perfect.(i hope the bold print on the period shows up)

posted by elijahin at 11:29 AM on December 30

What about the mystery call on the sidelines that went from a 15 yard penalty against the Patriots to a 15 yard call against the Giants? From what I could tell, it looked as if the announcers thought initially the penalty was for a late hit. Replays showed the hit was good and I think the flag was on Burress for saying something in the fracas that occurred at the sideline.

posted by Ricardo at 11:30 AM on December 30

My man calm the fuck down with this BS. It's my opinion. You want me to change it for you? posted by Footballcrew at 5:16 AM CST on December 30 Nobody asking to you change your opinion. Would you admit, at least, the Pats are one of the most enjoyable, hardworking, best coached and determined group of football players ever to be assembled? If you cannot admit these obvious attributes for this team, then your opinion is flawed, and is going to be cast aside with other obvious assumption in the past i.e. the world is flat and it's easy to figure out women.

posted by Nakeman at 11:37 AM on December 30

We can stop responding to him. He's done trolling, and I suspect he won't be back. I agree that it's going to get harder for the Pats now. Not only are the other teams going to be better, they're going to have to go to the run a lot more as the weather gets worse (which night be the only part of their game plan that could be considered a weakness), and if they lose now, it's a tragedy, not just a bummer.

posted by chicobangs at 12:05 PM on December 30

I have no scientific basis for this statement, but is it statistically true that the odds of a team losing the next game increase with each win? Does the skill level of a team negate or minimize this effect? I do feel like a Superbowl victory would be the crowning achievement of the year, but even if they don't win it all, this season has truly been amazing.

posted by Joey Michaels at 12:18 PM on December 30

joey, i dont know if thats true or not. in some ways id say that it might be, because each game they play, gives the next team something more to learn from. it also gives them more oppertunity to get injured. on the other hand, i think the law of independent averages may apply here. they've won 16 games in 16 different ways. nobody has really exposed a real diffinitive weakness. they are almost entirely healthy now. honestly theorys mean nothing when it comes down to it. hell this season even the "any given sunday theory" has not been in effect regarding the pats. sometimes everything you know takes a season off. i think this is one of those seasons.

posted by elijahin at 12:34 PM on December 30

They cover this pretty extensively in the play Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead. The odds of flipping heads on a coin is 1 in 2, regardless of how many times in a row you've done it before. 5 times, 10 times, 100 times in a row you've flipped heads? The next flip, it's still 1 in 2. There are 16 games' worth of tape on the many tricks of Belichick, and no one's been able to solve the Pats for four consecutive quarters yet. The Pats also have 16 games' worth of tape on the teams they're playing, so that evens out. They're not unbeatable. The question is whether the Browns, Colts or Cowboys (or whoever they wind up playing in the next month) can somehow succeed where everyone else has failed.

posted by chicobangs at 12:54 PM on December 30

Tom Brady did one thing that made me very happy tonight--no, it wasn't winning, getting the season TD record nor going undefeated--and it was something very simple: when he gave his post-game on the field quick interview with the NFL Network he did not thank any deity and his first words in response to the question were "hard work."

posted by billsaysthis at 01:10 PM on December 30

To be fair, I was a little harsh with Footballcrew, so he was right to be angry with me. But I don't understand the desire to crap on a celebratory thread with unsubstantiated bashing. As for Joey Michaels: One week to the next shouldn't matter, except psychologically. That might impact in the regular season (the "well, we finally lost and got that monkey off our back" relief) but in the playoffs everyone's playing for an undefeated season. However, I'm not sure if the bye week will either refresh them just in time, or hurt them. They were utterly dominant until the Colts game, a squeaker just before their bye week. They came back and pasted the Bills 56-10, but since then they haven't had a strong win except against the Steelers. Granted, the Steelers and the Colts are the two teams they're likely to face in the AFC Championship if they win their first game, and they've beaten both; the only likely playoff opponent they haven't beaten might be the Packers, should they meet in the Superbowl. Pittsburgh will as the likely #3 (barring both a loss from them today and a Chargers win) play the lesser wildcard, either Tennessee or Cleveland, and the Patriots would play the winner of that matchup. So I'm expecting a Steelers @ Patriots in the second round, at Foxboro. I also am hoping for the same outcome as the last time... :) My take on the Patriots is that they are playing at home for two games, which should help them unless we see severe weather conditions, but I think the weather will be better in Foxboro than Pittsburgh anyway, while the Colts' have too much homefield advantage- I think Manning would be more bothered by the open air winter weather than Brady. As a casual observer and football novice, it seems they do have a chink in their armor: without a healthy offensive line (which they didn't have in this Giants game) Brady can't get that extra second he needs to "see" the field like he does so well. Actually, their defensive line was getting beaten up last night by the running game, so a heavy snow fall could mean the Pats can't simply out-score the opposition. My feeling is that if the Patriots get to the Superbowl, they'll utterly paste the opposition, whoever it is: in the fairer, calmer weather the passing game will open up, and Brady will do what he did in that Buffalo game: scoring TDs on almost every possession. Then even a great running game against the Patriots won't matter...

posted by hincandenza at 01:11 PM on December 30

"What about the mystery call on the sidelines that went from a 15 yard penalty against the Patriots to a 15 yard call against the Giants? posted by kirkaracha at 11:00 AM CST on December 30" A Giants player did through a punch towards the Patriots number 31 on the sideline, although that Giants player WAS NOT number 81 who got called for the penalty (81 was standing near the guy that threw the punch at the Patriots player, but 81 never did anything but watch - if you watch the video from the back of the Giants bench, you will see a player to the left of 81 throw a punch at the Patriots player). The officials did miss calling a penalty on 31 from the Patriots for hitting the kick returner out of bounds, BUT I have seen that call NOT be made several time in Patriots game (a lot of them were on television this year) WHEN the penalty would have benefited the Patriots - so, it all evens out in the end. On the no penalty call on the OB hit, I have also seen that call NOT be made in a lot of games this year not involving the Patriots, officials seem reluctant to make the call when there is a scramble to tackle a player that almost broke a big run as was the case with the Giants kick returner.

posted by Cave_Man at 01:21 PM on December 30

Congrates to NE on a tremendous accomplishment. HOWEVER, they beat Indy when Indy was minus 9 of their 22 starters. And by the way Indy is the WORLD CHAMPS until beaten. I hope all of you keep forgetting about Indy because they are healthy now and are waiting in the wings like a shark with their mouth open. That said, I think they(NE) still is a great team and ought to be held in very high esteem. If a fan is going to make a comparision between Indy and NE I think the Ravins game is a good comparision. Indy totally dominated the Ravins and NE was lucky to get out with their proverbial lives. They are far and away the best two teams in the game today and if they meet each other along the way it will be another great game. They also have the best coaches in the NFL.

posted by sportnut at 01:35 PM on December 30

... if they lose now, it's a tragedy ... Say what? Surely you must recognize that many of us would love to see a giant-killer step up and kick Goliath's ass. They're becoming an extremely well-hated team.

posted by rcade at 01:42 PM on December 30

I meant a tragedy for them & their (smug little) fans, not for anyone else. I should have been more clear. And sportnut, no one's forgotten about Indy. They've been mentioned a dozen times in this thread. And honestly, they're the team with the best remaining chance to beat the Patriots this year.

posted by chicobangs at 01:45 PM on December 30

We can stop responding to him. He's done trolling, and I suspect he won't be back. WE? Did you just buy this site and tell all 15k members what to do? As far as the attacks, this post came first. Yeah, footballcrew, you're simply embarassing yourself at this point. Pathetic. you pretty much are a laughaby bitter fan of one of the other 29 teams spouting a lot of useless hot air. I responded to these attacks. Then you said, don't attack people because your opinion is challenged. Actually the opposite is happening. My opinion is different agree/disagree, like it/don't like it. Take a look back and see how many posts begin with, hey footballcrew---. Challenge my opinion all day, name calling is totally different. Troll, pathetic, a bitter fan spouting a lot of useless hot air, and even you respond with "weak". These types of personal comments useless bring about a personal response. If you re-read the thread you will discover these comments came before my "attacking" response. Careful Sportnut, you may be risking your account for mentioning the Ravens game.

posted by Footballcrew at 01:56 PM on December 30

"And sportnut, no one's forgotten about Indy. They've been mentioned a dozen times in this thread. And honestly, they're the team with the best remaining chance to beat the Patriots this year. posted by chicobangs at 1:45 PM CST on December 30" I think it is going to come down to those two teams. Both will have to be significantly off their game not to win through to the AFC championship game. The teams have the two best coaches in football, both coaches are good at making halftime adjustments. My guess is that a game between NE and Indy will boil down to how well the young Patriots offensive coordinator match up to the experienced, excellent offensive coordinator that the Colt have.

posted by Cave_Man at 01:59 PM on December 30

I responded to these attacks. Stop playing the martyr. You brought an extremely weak and poorly reasoned opinion here, but instead of backing it up with facts, you're just asserting the same dumb take over and over -- as if we didn't understand you the first time. Reread the new user guidelines and stop digging yourself a deeper hole.

posted by rcade at 02:12 PM on December 30

Chico, Do you mean to say that, by your reasoning, I should stop reading the Lotto column in my local paper just because the numbers being picked in the next drawing have nothing to do with any of the numbers picked previously? If that's the case, MR. BANGS, then Mr. Lotto wouldn't be the mogul he is. He'd be writing a crappy syndicated column appealing to weak-minded idiots... wait, never mind...

posted by ajaffe at 02:15 PM on December 30

people just dont want to accept miracles. they want to try to explain them. A Miracle? Can we lay off the hyperbole? There is no doubt that they are a great team and that this is a tremendous (if unfinished) achievement in the history of the NFL. But Miracle? A miracle is when a baby dying in a NICU ends up going home healthy. Or a six year old with Leukemia suddenly goes into remission for the rest of her life. That's a miracle. Not a football team winning all sixteen games. Also, a miracle usually presupposes some sort of divine intervention. If the Pats needed divine intervention, then that would mean that they aren't that good. Right? Anyway (as much as it pains me to say it) Congrats Pats.

posted by cjets at 02:16 PM on December 30

They join the 85 Bears and 72 Dolphins as unforgettable teams, if they win it all. However, the 1996 Chicago Bulls were the best team in pro sports history. However, that record is being scrutinized now as the Celtics roll.

posted by SFValley_Dude at 02:36 PM on December 30

Are they becoming a well hated team because of their winning,or are they being hated out of jealously?Either way, you can't look past of what they've accomplished as a team,or the personal records that Brady and Moss broke. Somewhere down the line they'll be a team to break the record,a quarterback t to throw more TD passes,and another receiver to catch more TD passes.As a Pats fan,I'm going to enjoy the ride that we're on right now.Hopefully ending with a Super Bowl victory.

posted by Ghastly1 at 02:38 PM on December 30

Surely you must recognize that many of us would love to see a giant-killer step up and kick Goliath's ass. They're becoming an extremely well-hated team. If I were to bet on a giant-killer it would be Jacksonville. Especially if the weather is bad, like it was in the Pats game against the Jets. They've got a strong running game and a tough defense. The question I have is how well they can play in the cold weather. And can they play 60 minutes? Something the Giants, Ravens, Eagles and Colts weren't able to do. Tom Brady did one thing that made me very happy tonight...when he gave his post-game on the field quick interview with the NFL Network he did not thank any deity and his first words in response to the question were "hard work." Yes. Can't say I'm a fan of him or his team. But that was complete class.

posted by cjets at 02:43 PM on December 30

YOU LEAVE MISTER LOTTO ALONE! YOU BASTARDS! (I was just quoting Tom Stoppard. Don't shoot the messenger, you old coot.) Are they becoming a well hated team because of their winning,or are they being hated out of jealously? I can't speak for anyone else, but I hate them because of long-standing divisional rivalries between teams I have followed. Oh, and I've met more than a few of their fans who are kind of douchebags. Tom Brady is a smug prettyboy, but lord, it's hard to be humble when you're perfect in every way. (The lack of aggressive evangelism is also a plus, I gotta say.) And Bill Belichick is an asshole, but he delights in being an asshole, which I kind of respect. And of course, you can't argue with their results. (Or I guess you can, but you have to ignore huge pieces of reality.)

posted by chicobangs at 02:57 PM on December 30

If I were to bet on a giant-killer it would be Jacksonville. Especially if the weather is bad, like it was in the Pats game against the Jets. They've got a strong running game and a tough defense. The question I have is how well they can play in the cold weather. The Jags showed how they could play in the cold up in Pittsburgh, where they completely steamrolled the Steelers during a snowstorm. They're the kind of team that can dominate a cold-weather playoff game, with monstrous running backs and a smashmouth attitude, but as a fan I am concerned about Brady and his receivers picking apart an underperforming secondary. I won't be making a stone cold lock if they meet in this year's playoffs.

posted by rcade at 03:13 PM on December 30

It was a helluvagame to watch I must say that. Beyond my original "Bummer" comment let me expand on that....I hate the Pats. Always have and always will. I do have one legitimate question for those who are much more knowledgable in these matters. Please explain to me that how they were caught cheating and didn't have to forfeit the game? Really, I don't understand.

posted by budman13 at 03:37 PM on December 30

For the record, I'm with chico. Life-long Dolphins fan, so multiple reasons (AFC East and '72) to hate the Pats, but man... what they've accomplished is certainly the most impressive single-season team achievement I've ever seen in sports. Asterisk it, do whatever you want, but even with all the disclaimers it trumps any other single season in NFL history- probably even '72, if only because this year's Pats offense was such an unstoppable force. That said, they won't be more than a touchdown favorite against the Colts, and a loss in that game shouldn't shock anyone- as kokaku's link pointed out, 24 teams have outscored their regular season opponents by more than 2-1, but only 10 won it all.

posted by tieguy at 04:06 PM on December 30

"Please explain to me that how they were caught cheating and didn't have to forfeit the game? Really, I don't understand. posted by budman13 at 3:37 PM CST on December 30" The Patriot cameraman was removed within the first 5 minutes of the game with the Jets. That left 55 minutes of football that was played witout the camera person present. If the Patriots can "steal" all of the Jets signals in five minutes and use that information to win the game, heaven help the Jets. The game was won by the better team, there should be no forfeit.

posted by Cave_Man at 04:09 PM on December 30

It was a terrific game last night and the better team won. I admit I had my fingers crossed for the Giants (chico, "you leave Eli alone!" in my best chris crocker) ...becoming a well hated team because of ... Ghastly, it isn't so much hatred for the team, but the incessant gassing about them that started around week 5 of the season. You couldn't watch any game without the color guys slobbering all over themselves praising the Pats, it seemedwhat went on on the field was secondary. Like the Wolf says "Lets not start sucking each other's dicks quite yet", or something to that effect. At least that is my opinion, for what it is worth.

posted by steelergirl at 04:10 PM on December 30

If the Patriots can "steal" all of the Jets signals in five minutes and use that information to win the game, Heaven help the Jets. There. Cleaned that up for you.

posted by chicobangs at 04:45 PM on December 30

Thanks Cave Man.

posted by budman13 at 04:50 PM on December 30

someone give football crew the hug and attention he desperately craves so we can all get back to talking football in the real world. he is a hater, clinging to any hope that the pats might not be as good as their record implies. i felt the same way when troy aikman's cowboys knocked my 9ers out of the playoffs two strait in the 90's. in a few years he'll look back at this team and say "shit. i wish i had appreciated what i was seeing when it was happening, even though i do hate the team.

posted by elijahin at 04:51 PM on December 30

Nothing would be sweeter to me than to see someone, anyone knock off the Pats in the playoffs. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, I am a bonafied Patriots hater! But..., history has been made and IF they do go all the way and IF they do win the Super Bowl (against my beloved Cowboys... he,he,he) then what will history have to say about it? THE 2007 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS, GREATEST TEAM EVER

posted by canstusdis at 05:08 PM on December 30

Great season for the Patriots but I don't see 16-0 as particularly historic. Two more regular-season wins than the Dolphins team doesn't mean much in my book. In pro football, winning the Superbowl is what is remembered and is what counts. Regular-season? Pfft.

posted by aerotive at 05:43 PM on December 30

I don't see 16-0 as particularly historic What would be?

posted by yerfatma at 05:53 PM on December 30

Yeah, what would be? There have been 34 Super Bowl champions since the last undefeated season. They give one of those trophies away every friggin' year, fergodsake. If you really want to deny that you've seen something special, that's fine. You're just wrong.

posted by chicobangs at 06:06 PM on December 30

I don't see 16-0 as particularly historic What would be? 162-0. If the Red Sox lose a game next year, I am going to be pissed.

posted by jerseygirl at 06:16 PM on December 30

162-0. If the Red Sox lose a game next year, I am going to be pissed. I know this was said in jest, but man... if a Boston fan 10 years ago had set this as their bar for excellence, they'd have been laughed out of the room. Now everyone just hates them quietly, fearing it just might happen...

posted by tieguy at 06:19 PM on December 30

My. Well, this thread is reason #3 I'm glad I had to work today. Would it really be too much to ask of sports fans that they expend a little more energy on loving (or liking, or feeling a deep regard for, or what ever) their teams of choice than on hating some other team? Seems like there are an awful lot of people who have made sure to say at every opportunity how much they hate the Patriots. The NFL Network coverage has been over the top, but forgodsakes, that's not the Pats' fault, now is it? I mean, chico, you have discovered a fondness for the word "smug", haven't you? What's up with that? What's the factual basis -- or is this just a case of sour grapes?

posted by lil_brown_bat at 06:55 PM on December 30

162-0. If the Red Sox lose a game next year, I am going to be pissed. Hopefully April 1 at approximately 1 or 1:30 a.m. est (actually April 2 est) you'll be pissed after the A's beat them in their opener on the west coast. Not that I want you to be pissed, jerseygirl, but looking at the bright side, at least I'll be happy!

posted by dyams at 07:03 PM on December 30

Oh, man. LBB, the reason I've gone out of my way to mention that I'm not a Patriots fan in this thread, and especially in the argument with the main troll in this thread, is to make sure it's clear that I'm not a lifelong Pats backer or even a fan, and so the props I give them for the amazing season they're having aren't the astroturf parrotings of some brainwashed dittohead (see: Bill Simmons, Bob Ryan, Jackie Macmullan, and much of the rest of the Bristol Bandwagonocracy). I ask that you read the thread again. I (and not just I) have come to praise the New England Patriots, not to bury them. As far as the use of the word "smug," well, the shoe largely fits. It's true that for most teams living through a protracted hot streak (let alone a historical one, like the Canadiens or the Yankees), some of the fans (specifically, the most vocal ones) will develop a sense of entitlement and superiority that is specifically designed to get under the skin of the fans of the opposing teams. I guess that makes sense in a lot of ways. But that doesn't mean it doesn't grate. It's not sour grapes -- I'd have to care about the NFL more than I do for that -- but I have a hard time staying quiet when I see someone writing checks their team's future can't cash. That's all. I'm sorry if it grated on you. That was not my intention. Once again, in case there is any ambiguity on this point: Congratulations to the Patriots. They are full value for all the glory they get this season. Any qualifications I may have put on that statement above, and any opinions I have about the karmic worthiness of the players or fans of the team, are niggling in comparison, and should in no way detract from the enormity of their great accomplishment. Peace?

posted by chicobangs at 07:20 PM on December 30

lil brown bat: C'mon, tell me you don't hate the Cowboys, or the Yankees, or the Celtics, or Notre Dame, or insert your team here...________. Nobody hates Western Oklahoma A&M because nobody's heard of them and because their beloved team has never lost to them! "...a case of sour grapes?" Of course. Why would you expect anything else?

posted by canstusdis at 07:45 PM on December 30

i hate the cowboys. i hate the yankees. i hate ohio state. when i was a teenager, and the boys and 9ers went toe to toe every year (most of them won by dallas) i had sour grapes. but now i appreciate (though still through blood colored glasses) the greatness of that dynasty. i like the pats. they arent my team, but i like the way they opperate. i like that they seem to be above the petty crap that erodes the greatness of this game. yes you can bring up spygate, and maybe even have a point, but tom brady didnt put the cameras up there. neither did teddy bruschi, or rodney harrison. they remind me of the days when montana, rice and lott would walk onto an opponents field and expect to win. not to show up anyone, or taunt them, but to win. it wasnt arrogant. it was just true. the pats have the same thing. i am glad i am mature enough now to appreciate the achivement that i am seeing.

posted by elijahin at 07:59 PM on December 30

As far as the use of the word "smug," well, the shoe largely fits. It's true that for most teams living through a protracted hot streak (let alone a historical one, like the Canadiens or the Yankees), some of the fans (specifically, the most vocal ones) will develop a sense of entitlement and superiority that is specifically designed to get under the skin of the fans of the opposing teams. Oh, absolutely -- and although you didn't qualify your earlier statement to apply to "some of the fans", I'm sure you meant it that way. Here's the thing, though -- when you said "(smug little) fans", it sounded rather bitter, like you didn't like the sight of fans who are simply happy that their team won, and needed to represent happiness as smugness. Also, I'm not sure how the adjective "smug" applies to Brady. If anything, he seems rather self-deprecating. He gives credit to other players and other parts of his organization, talks more about what he has to improve on than what he's done...yeah, he gets a lot of dates. Any unmarried NFL player can probably have all the dates he wants. I don't think that makes him a bad guy, though, or deserving of the adjective "smug".

posted by lil_brown_bat at 08:14 PM on December 30

I'm glad I got to see this bit of football history made, and in an entertaining manner as well. 16-0 represents excellence and it's eternal, a record that can only be tied. Several teams have won Super Bowls. How many have had undefeated regular seasons? Nobody should gripe about the Patriots being in a weak division. If that's true then they should roll over their divisional opponents like the 49ers used to. One component that goes into building a team is to create a group that will defeat your division (and ultimately playoff) rivals. No Patriots hate here, but I'll acknowledge some Randy Moss resentment, seeing what he can achieve when he doesn't dog it.

posted by Newbie Walker at 08:44 PM on December 30

I'm not going to say it. I have told you all what is happening. Apocalyptic warnings should be heeded. Look to the east for beelzebub. Just don't look much further than Martha's Vinyard.

posted by THX-1138 at 10:04 PM on December 30

16-0 represents excellence and it's eternal Eternal? Let me tell you about the 2050 NFL regular season, my friend. 24 weeks long and the Super Bowl is played on the ultimate neutral site: The Moon. The New England Patriots (the name largely symbolic as most of New England is underwater), coached by the head of Bill Belichick, go undefeated, once again, in the regular season. But, once again, the season is marred by controversy as Belichick's head is caught using a telepath to steal the other team's plays. And once again, I (reluctantly) congratulate the Pats.

posted by cjets at 10:17 PM on December 30

"Yeah, what would be? There have been 34 Super Bowl champions since the last undefeated season. They give one of those trophies away every friggin' year, fergodsake. If you really want to deny that you've seen something special, that's fine. You're just wrong." Whoever wins the Superbowl makes history. Each one of those 34 Superbowl victories is more important than any undefeated regular season. And I didn't say the Patriots season wasn't special. I think it was. I said not historic and not much more impressive than the undefeated Dolphins team. And I'm quite right about that.

posted by aerotive at 10:40 PM on December 30

I just need a second to gloat here. I grew up in Connecticut as a Patriots fan but have lived for 17 years in Hawaii (and unashamedly jumped on that bandwagon about half way through UH's season this year). Basically, as of today, I haven't seen a football team I cheer for lose since 2006. This will probably change in 2008, so I want to get my gloating in while I can. See, I figured 2004 was going to be the greatest sports year of my life (also a Red Sox fan), so I'm trying to revel in this before the Patriots turn in the 49ers. Know what I mean? Thank you. Goodnight.

posted by Joey Michaels at 10:42 PM on December 30

"I'm not going to say it. I have told you all what is happening. Apocalyptic warnings should be heeded. Look to the east for beelzebub. Just don't look much further than Martha's Vinyard. posted by THX-1138 at 10:04 PM CST on December 30" Star Trek music is ringing in my ears over and over after reading your post. Mind helping a Sportsfilter Bro out by explaining what the hell you are writing about?

posted by Cave_Man at 10:47 PM on December 30

"I'm not going to say it. I have told you all what is happening. Apocalyptic warnings should be heeded. Look to the east for beelzebub. Just don't look much further than Martha's Vinyard." the signs of the appocylips have been happening for a while. we have elected and re-elected a guy to the presidency who cant pronounce nuclear. the red sox have won 2 world series. the miami heat have won a finals. jim carry has acted (and pretty well) in a couple of serious movies. the signs are there and if you are looking for beelzebub, look to the vice president.

posted by elijahin at 11:10 PM on December 30

"See, I figured 2004 was going to be the greatest sports year of my life (also a Red Sox fan), so I'm trying to revel in this before the Patriots turn in the 49ers. Know what I mean?" One has to wonder what would exist with the 49ers if Eddie DiBartolo(sp?) did not get mixed up in the casino gambling scheme that brought him down and landed the team in his sister's lap. Eddie ploughed money into the franchise to make it the best. Kraft is more conservative with his money, but the Patriots put money back into the franchise to make it what has become. Instead of hating the Patriots and the Colts (there are Colt haters also), fans of other team should hope that the ownership of their favorite team do the following; 1) Hire and retain a great coach and a great General Manager (prefably the coach and GM have worked closely toghether before being hired) that do not have Czar complexes, 2) Spend time studying the character of players that are drafted and brought in as free agents, hot shots in college may not have the goods to be come a pro in a team based system and some free agents that appear to have baggage may be competitors that have been misunderstood 3) Allow the coach to hire quality assistants and pay those assistants well enough to keep them around until a head coaching job offer comes their way.

posted by Cave_Man at 11:15 PM on December 30

I said not historic and not much more impressive than the undefeated Dolphins team. And I'm quite right about that. No you're not. It might not be impressive to you. You can shrug it off. But it the big picture, meaning outside of your personal opinion, it is most definitely a historic season. You compare it to the superbowl. If the steelers win the super bowl next year think they'll call it a historic victory? No, because it happens every year. Someone wins the super bowl. Part of history? Yes. Historic? No. An undefeated season doesn't happen every year. This was only the second. That makes it historic.

posted by justgary at 12:00 AM on December 31

the signs of the appocylips have been happening for a while. we have elected and re-elected a guy to the presidency who cant pronounce nuclear. Is that suppose to be irony?

posted by justgary at 12:03 AM on December 31

irony, stupidity, appathy, blame it on whatever you want.

posted by elijahin at 12:06 AM on December 31

justgary - The '34, and '42 Bears did it as well - but lost in the Championship game both times. And this coming from a Bears Fan . . . damn the post season . . . With regards to the Patriots - deepest congratulations on their regular season record - 3 more to go. As a Michigan Alum, I'm proud of Tom Brady's accomplishments thus far and wish him continued success.

posted by B-2 Spirit at 01:26 AM on December 31

The '34, and '42 Bears did it as well - but lost in the Championship game both times. And this coming from a Bears Fan . . . damn the post season . . . Sorry, should have stated since the super bowl era.

posted by justgary at 02:24 AM on December 31

Kornheiser put it best, "never again do I want to hear the words uttered,' long suffering Boston fans'."

posted by GoBirds at 05:16 AM on December 31

Never again do I want to hear the media telling another long-suffering-/turnaround-in-Boston sports story because they're too lazy to come up with an original idea.

posted by kokaku at 05:58 AM on December 31

Seems like there are an awful lot of people who have made sure to say at every opportunity how much they hate the Patriots. I hate the Patriots, and have ever since they cheated to win against the Fins in New England back in 1982. What's that? The Pats? Cheating?! I know, it's hard to believe. So, no, I didn't start hating the Pats this year; I've had a hate-hate relationship with them for 25 years now. LBB, you've been a sports fan long enough, and a fan, coincidentally enough, of the Yankees and the Pats at the height of their recent successes; you should have developed a thicker skin by now, but you never seem to. Stop complaining about how uncomfortable the seat is when you're sitting on top of the world.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 06:02 AM on December 31

Anyone that knows anything about football knows you go through the season and have 3 games that season, that could go either way for you. As good a talent as the Pats are, it was no different for them. You still need to get lucky sometimes to get those games under your belt. Ravens, Philly, and Giants are those games. Still need to get their monkey off their backs, and win the rest of the way or it's all for not. I wish them luck, because there is a game plan out there now to beat them. Preasure on the QB, and run the ball on them on your turns with the ball. You can't shoot it out with those guys. And mistake free football, or you shoot yourself in the foot!

posted by robi8259 at 06:16 AM on December 31

fans of other team should hope that the ownership of their favorite team do the following; 1) Hire and retain a great coach and a great General Manager (prefably the coach and GM have worked closely toghether before being hired) that do not have Czar complexes Some fans don't have that luxury.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 07:29 AM on December 31

Would it really be too much to ask of sports fans that they expend a little more energy on loving (or liking, or feeling a deep regard for, or what ever) their teams of choice than on hating some other team? Yes. Ain't nothing wrong with enjoying another team's defeat. The Patriots are on such a high pedestal now that there are only two stories left in the season, both of them memorable: They're going to go undefeated or somebody will shock the world and knock them off. That's great stuff, LBB, and it's driven in part by how obnoxious the Pats have become to those of us outside their fan base. There are times a team can be on top and still be a sympathetic favorite -- if Favre took the Packers to the bowl this year, they'd be one for sure. But that's not the Pats.

posted by rcade at 07:56 AM on December 31

Would it really be too much to ask of sports fans that they expend a little more energy on loving (or liking, or feeling a deep regard for, or what ever) their teams of choice than on hating some other team? Maybe it's the fact I'm getting older, but I really don't find myself hating any other pro teams right now. I used to hate the Giants in football, but I found myself really appreciating the solid effort they put forth Saturday night. They could have sat everyone, ala Indy, but they laid it all out there in an effort to give their best performance, and it nearly threw a wrench in the Pats perfect regular season. There's no way I can hate that. I guess the closest I'd come to "hate" is the Red Sox, but I can appreciate some of their players and what they've accomplished. And I don't know how anyone can "hate" the Patriots. It's professional football, for God's sake! I want cockiness, attitude, and for the players and head coach to want nothing more than to win everything, and by large margins. I guess the hatred most fans feel towards other teams is based mainly on jealousy and nothing else. It's usually a case where their favorite team stinks and they feel they have to hate the teams that win. I guess it's normal, but some seem to take it way too far. For me, it's hate the uniform, not the ones wearing the uniform.

posted by dyams at 08:23 AM on December 31

I think the way most people use hate isn't as awful as it sounds. You root for a team, they have a rival, and you want them to lose. That's part of sports. "The sox lost, so I hope the yankees lose. I hate them." But not in the true meaning of hate. And when it goes from enjoying the other team losing more than your own team winning, well, I don't really want to discuss sports with that person. Another annoyance is fans that are completely biased and unfair. Hate a team, but give them credit. Don't watch Papelbon pump his fist after the last out and say he's showboating and then tell me about Chamberlain's intensity when he does the same thing. Don't tell me Beckett is a jerk but Clemens is just very competitive (and it goes both ways). And I think when the hate goes over-board that's what happens. You can't discuss sports with a clear view. And in that way, you can hate a team too much (at least to have decent conversation with a fan of another team). /off topic

posted by justgary at 08:50 AM on December 31

I also have 2 things to say about this game. Actually more than 2. 1. As a huge Pats fan, I was feeling really nervous throughout most of the game. I mean, that kick-off return for a TD. Where was the Pats defense? 2. I know that it was great of Moss and Brady to break their records. Congrats. 3. Wes Welker also broke a record. Where's his congrats? He aught the most passes in franchise history. And all he gets is just congrats to Moss and Brady? 4. What the heck was up with the referees? Why the heck would that penalty to Moss be fair. All he did was dance. And that penalty on the kick return was aainst the Giants. I thought that it was against the Pats.

posted by funebune at 09:10 AM on December 31

I want to see a Pats, Packers Super Bowl - because it would be a killer story and a great way to end a particularly memorable season (certainly one of the more entertaining ones that I can remember). Also, because if the unimaginable happens and Favre wins, John Madden will spontaneously combust ("Boom! I'm dead.") and Pat Summeral will de-age 30 years and come back into the booth for another 2 decades armed with a bionic liver.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 09:17 AM on December 31

justgary: And when it goes from enjoying the other team losing more than your own team winning, well, I don't really want to discuss sports with that person. Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at. Being around people like this, regardless of their team-o-choice, makes me feel yucky. Thanks, you said it very well.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 09:22 AM on December 31

Ten years from now I will have two memories of the Pats for their "perfect" season. The first will be all the money I won as Vegas couldn't get a handle on the over/under or the point spread for the first 10 weeks! The second will come from one of the few games I watched of the Pats: vs. the Bills on a Monday night, up by more than the National Debt, and I see Tom, Randy, and the O.C. on the sidelines going over the over-head pre-snap photos. Even when the game was completely out of reach for the Bills, those three were cooking up touchdowns in a 4th quarter meeting. It was like the score didn't count. Perfect execution of the next play was/is all that matters to them.

posted by r8rh8r27 at 09:33 AM on December 31

One has to wonder what would exist with the 49ers if Eddie DiBartolo(sp?) did not get mixed up in the casino gambling scheme As I remember (and I'm often faulty), they had made a mess of the salary cap and were going to have to go through a rebuilding process regardless. fans of other team should hope that the ownership of their favorite team do the following I agree with a lot of your points here, but I think the one lesson on football success these Pats have taught me is this: draft linemen. Line play isn't the only thing that matters, but it's close. Without the offensive line, there's no Tom Brady. Without the defensive line, there's no Ty Law/ Asante Samuel. Teams that stay successful have great lines (Elway's Broncos, for example).

posted by yerfatma at 09:34 AM on December 31

Why the heck would that penalty to Moss be fair. They said the penalty was a result of Maroney coming up and dancing with him, clearly violating the NFL's rule about "Assemblages of Non-Whites".

posted by yerfatma at 09:36 AM on December 31

Cave-Man, Your formula for a successful team is exactly right. I just finished Tony Dungy's new book and that is exactly what he has done in Indy and that also was his formula while at Tampa. Although another coach reaped the benefits at Tampa. Just a short plug for Tony's book. It is the best book I've read in a long time and every young athlete should be required to read it. The message is much more than the road to success in athletics, it is a template to success in life.

posted by sportnut at 09:37 AM on December 31

What i love about the Patriots is their commitment to excellence. I understand why teams who are 12-0, 13-0, etc would rest their starters and get ready for the playoffs. They would drop a game or two, and that would be just fine. However, there is something i like about saying "screw conventional wisdom, we're going undefeated." I really appreciate how the Patriots have made the decision to try to reach a level of greatness that most other dominant teams don't. It makes the game interesting. Incidentally, i think that it is this bucking of "conventional wisdom" that is really at the source of why so many hate the Pats this year. Tradition says to quit laying it on people once you're way ahead. The Patriots chose not to repeatedly. Traditionally, teams don't want to risk losing a key player for the playoffs, and are willing to drop a game or two. The Patriots don't, because they want to be remembered as the greatest team of all time. I think that such lofty aspirations strike many as presumptuous. In a similar vein, i think that the dislike of many fans is used to merely mask jealousy, because we would all love to see OUR team be known as the greatest ever. When people or organizations try to reinvent the wheel or take what they do to the next level, everyone else lashes out at them. The Patriots violate our football "common sense." So, instead of embracing them, most choose to hate them. IF the Pats pull this off, and truly raise the standard of excellence, in 20 years we will all sing their praises. Right now, they simply represent a threat to a lot of what "we knew to be true" about the game, so we hate them, as we would anyone who challenges the comfortable status quo. I think that they have made this season probably the most entertaining i have ever watched. I think they're great.

posted by brainofdtrain at 10:24 AM on December 31

They said the penalty was a result of Maroney coming up and dancing with him, clearly violating the NFL's rule about "Assemblages of Non-Whites". As well it should.

posted by budman13 at 12:13 PM on December 31

As well what should?

posted by lil_brown_bat at 12:27 PM on December 31

Although I hate them, Congrats to NE and their fans, what a great season. And here's to the Steelers revenge tour. Jacksonville and NE better watch out (Please note that this opinion is bases solely on hopes and dreams).

posted by Steel_Town at 12:34 PM on December 31

As well it should Well I see budman 13 is from MO and it shows in the ignorance of the post also. Tell me "Budman" is your white sheet handy? Do they call you Grand Wizard? You are ignorant and racist. If your post was a joke than you're not funny. If your post was for real than you have no business writing racist comments.

posted by B10 at 01:27 PM on December 31

They said the penalty was a result of Maroney coming up and dancing with him, clearly violating the NFL's rule about "Assemblages of Non-Whites". You owe me a new, non-cola soaked monitor.

posted by grum@work at 01:50 PM on December 31

Yerfatma was kidding, B10. Crap. Your username sank my battleship!

posted by rcade at 01:52 PM on December 31

B10, it doesn't matter where Budman is from, that was a stupid comment on his part, even if he lived in the North Pole. You don't have to follow it up with an ignorance of your own. By the way, congrats to the Patriots.

posted by BoKnows at 01:53 PM on December 31

Well I see budman 13 is from MO and it shows in the ignorance of the post also. What in the hell does being from Missouri have to do with being a racist. Since I'm from Missouri I expect a apology straight away. Want to criticize the post-go ahead, but lets leave out geographical stereotypes for this discussion-shall we.

posted by Nakeman at 01:56 PM on December 31

Explain to me how budman13's comment was racist but yerfatma's wasn't. Not that I think either comment was appropriate, how can one be considered a joke and the other not? Oh, and congrats to the Pats regular season. I hope they lose their next game in the post season.

posted by Familyman at 02:14 PM on December 31

Congrats to the Patriots and a Happy New Year from The Lone Star State to all the Spo-fi's.

posted by texasred at 02:17 PM on December 31

You people are ruining a seriously awesome joke. Stop it right now. Really. It's starting to depress me. (I'm giving budman13 the benefit of the doubt because I smelt a little irony there. Faint whiff, really.) They said the penalty was a result of Maroney coming up and dancing with him, clearly violating the NFL's rule about "Assemblages of Non-Whites". Take that Roger Goddell! Right in your mind!

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 02:22 PM on December 31

Since I'm from Missouri I expect a apology straight away O.K., O.K., I probably shouldn't have said that. I was trying to use the "stigma" of the south to piss him off. No offense Nakeman.

posted by B10 at 02:24 PM on December 31

Explain to me how budman13's comment was racist but yerfatma's wasn't. yerfatma's comment was a joke, and if anything, anti-racist. budman13's comment was...was...was a construction of words that made absolutely no sense in relation to what he was quoting. Go back and read it again. It may (or may not) have been motivated by a racist thought, but the statement itself is simply incomprehensible.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 02:26 PM on December 31

I am tired of all the hoopla about Tom Brady...a GOOD quarter back with a GREAT supporting cast. Given the same offensive line and receivers, I can think of two or three other QB's that would look as good. So acalades to a GREAT team...with a cagey coach...who arranged on the first game of the season to create a "we're under seige - rally 'round and vindicate ME and OUR integrity" mentality that had a lot to do with them coalescing as a team early.

posted by JayLBird at 02:41 PM on December 31

I can think of two or three other QB's that would look as good I am curious who those 2 or 3 other qb's would be?

posted by B10 at 02:52 PM on December 31

JayLBird, I don't think that the Pats really needed much in the way of coalescence (?). They picked up some new guys, as every team does every season -- but the new guys were coming into an organization that has a strong sense of itself as a team. Players who have joined the Patriots in the Belichick era have spoken of joining an organization where their historical accomplishments were respected and their historical issues were considered in the past and not relevant to their new team. It seems like a good formula for creating a cohesive team from week one.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 03:14 PM on December 31

No offense Nakeman. Comment icon posted by B10 at 2:24 PM CST on December 31 Thank you and apology accepted.

posted by Nakeman at 03:24 PM on December 31

Well I see budman 13 is from MO and it shows in the ignorance of the post also. Tell me "Budman" is your white sheet handy? Do they call you Grand Wizard? You are ignorant and racist. If your post was a joke than you're not funny. If your post was for real than you have no business writing racist comments. Give me a fucking break. The comment is in reference to a comment that I found offensive and racist in itself. That particular poster loves to bring race into the equation at every chance and frankly I'm fed up with it. So I thought that I'd re-enforce his stupid comment with one even more so and sit back for all of the bullshit posts in response. I didn't have to wait long. One bad joke and another to trail it if indeed his comment was a joke. And by the by they don't let Jews into the Klan.

posted by budman13 at 03:47 PM on December 31

So I thought that I'd re-enforce his stupid comment with one even more so and sit back for all of the bullshit posts in response. You thought you were posting something witty, when instead you were posting gibberish. But do elaborate on the above: just what is your objection to yerfatma's statement? Or, better yet -- what do you believe he was trying to say?

posted by lil_brown_bat at 03:52 PM on December 31

So I thought that I'd re-enforce his stupid comment with one even more so and sit back for all of the bullshit posts in response. I didn't have to wait long. So basically you were trolling -- saying something intentionally stupid to enjoy the reaction it elicited. Is this something you're planning to do here in the future?

posted by rcade at 03:57 PM on December 31

Taking nothing away from anything lil brown bat has said, because those seem to be the facts of the case. But I'm thinking team chemistry also benefits from its own, new, shared "crisis" of which everybody is a part. Belichick couldn't lose in his little plot. They don't get caught and they all have their little secret (along with the unfair advantage that just may win one game they might not otherwise have won). They do get caught and its circle the wagons (and the emotional juice that may win them one game they might not otherwise have won). I think I have put a mental asterisk beside their perfect season, along with a footnote to give the lions share of the offensive credit to their line and receivers.

posted by JayLBird at 03:59 PM on December 31

Again, give me a fucking break. I'm tired of the passive agressive "the poor down troden minority" mentality creeping into every discussion from Bonds to Vic . I didn't find his coment amusing or witty either. My comment was not gibberish. For example (class take notes, this will be on the next test). "The little boy was punished for cutting his brothers hair". "As well as he should have been." I'm sure that they offer English classes at the learning annex, check it out.

posted by budman13 at 04:01 PM on December 31

rcade, I wan't trolling in the classic sense of the word. I was making a point. Obviously one that I didn't put a sharp enough of a point on. It did however start a conversation on the subject but one that shouldn't highjack this thread. For the highjacking I do apologize and no I don't plan on trolling in the future. Oh and before anyone jumps down my throat, I mispelled "trodden" in my last post and failed to catch it on my proof read. Finally, Missouri is in the South? It's been a long time since The Missouri compromise and Dred Scott. Puh-leeeze

posted by budman13 at 04:13 PM on December 31

budman, traditionally speaking, Southern states are referred to as what were slave states, and Northern states were Free States. I beleive that's what the previous posters were referring to. (As a Kansas man, I can attest to the Missouri/Kansas relationship in this matter.)

posted by hawkguy at 04:22 PM on December 31

I didn't find his coment amusing or witty either. I thought it was funny, myself. Hard to believe it has led to a 10-brain pileup like this. Guess I'm not the only one who got shortchanged this Christmas. Silverware? Bite me, Claus.

posted by rcade at 04:23 PM on December 31

Finally, Missouri is in the South? Last time I checked. If it's not I know a lot of people that didn't get the memo.

posted by B10 at 04:24 PM on December 31

So how about those Pats (read: Failed attempt at redirection to thread topic)!

posted by brainofdtrain at 04:35 PM on December 31

Hawkguy, I'm well aware of the MO/KAN situation and as I stated in my last post referring to the MO Compromise and it's been a looooooong time since, (you'll love this) the War of Northern Aggression. Put it to bed folks. Although I still do believe that they are fightin' injuns in Kansas City and west into Overland Park. My last trip up I saw some Chiefs at the 435 interchange. Now quickly let's have a group hug. Some one hug me...male or female, I don't care lest some one call me a homophobe. How about those Patriots.

posted by budman13 at 04:38 PM on December 31

Damn, I need a new job. I could have been home today watching the bowl games and reading all the new postings. Yes, the Pats have done something great, but I still hate them like I used to hate Joe Montana. Greatest quarterback ever (sorry Brett Farve); I just couldn't understand why he had to play for those damned 49ers...

posted by canstusdis at 08:18 PM on December 31

budman: My comment was not gibberish. For example (class take notes, this will be on the next test). "The little boy was punished for cutting his brothers hair". "As well as he should have been." Right, I got that part. Now, while it's very kind of you to direct me to the Learning Annex for English classes, I learned this bit in seventh grade. The phrase "The little boy" in the first sentence is the antecedent to which the pronoun "he" in the second sentence clearly refers. Now let's look at yerfatma's comment and what you wrote: They said the penalty was a result of Maroney coming up and dancing with him, clearly violating the NFL's rule about "Assemblages of Non-Whites". As well it should. So -- as I asked you way back when -- as well what should? What is the antecedent to which the pronoun "it" refers? And what is the verb that would follow? As well [noun] should [verb] -- if it's not gibberish, then fill it in for me, willya?

posted by lil_brown_bat at 09:47 PM on December 31

The word "it" would be the act of Maroney dancing with Moss. The "dance" or "it" should result in a penalty under the "assemblage of non-whites" rule in the NFL.

posted by budman13 at 12:15 AM on January 01

Hello everyone, I'm new to sports filter. I've been reading your comments for a long time and thought I'd get in on it. I am from maine and have been a sports fan forever. wishing all of you a happy new year.

posted by Mainiac at 06:30 AM on January 01

Happy New Year and welcome to SpoFi!

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 07:38 AM on January 01

Finally, Missouri is in the South? I always felt Kansas was the more interesting question.

posted by yerfatma at 08:57 AM on January 01

I saw Miami go undefeated. I saw New England go undefeated. Great accomplishments but only one team didn't cheat and film their opponents. One team deserves and asterisk the other stays flawless.

posted by BlindAlvin at 11:32 AM on January 01

Technically the Patriots failed to cheat. The tape was taken before they could even view it. They got no advantage from their failed attempt to cheat and thus it had no effect on the season (besides motivation).

posted by apoch at 11:47 AM on January 01

If we're going to go the * because they cheated route then apoch's argument is flawed. The act of filming the other team's signals is cheating. Whether or not the Pats benefited from it doesn't change that.

posted by budman13 at 12:28 PM on January 01

One team deserves and asterisk the other stays flawless. So you're ok when it benefits Joe DiMaggio, but not here, huh?

posted by yerfatma at 12:41 PM on January 01

Geez, I hate the Patriots with the intensity of a thousand burning suns but could we give the cheating thing a rest? They don't need to cheat. The game against the Giants is a perfect example of how a coach/team can see the flaws of the other team and adjust accordingly. Tom and crew are good, but it is Bill who makes them great. They will probably go 19-0 this year. Good for them, let them have their moment in the sun. Come next August the dial goes back to 0-0.

posted by steelergirl at 01:16 PM on January 01

I don't care what you if you watch the replay closely from the Patriots-Ravens game you would realize that the "game-winning" touchdown pass from Tom Brady was incomplete due to the fact that the receiver was bobbling the pass. They should be a ripe 15-1. And I stand by that. Also if we as a sports society are going to put an * on Bonds record, then that * better be following the "16-0" I don't belive in.

posted by Jman2477 at 01:19 PM on January 01

God, do we need a noob filter.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 01:22 PM on January 01

Seriously.

posted by jerseygirl at 01:57 PM on January 01

Geez, I hate the Patriots with the intensity of a thousand burning suns but could we give the cheating thing a rest? Agreed. Tom and crew are good, but it is Bill who makes them great. I go back and forth on this alot. Is it Belichick? Is it Brady? Is it the synergy between the two of them. And let's not forget the offensive line. Belichick may be a great coach but without Brady I don't know if they even win one super bowl, much less three or four.

posted by cjets at 02:07 PM on January 01

cjets, great call on the offensive line. I think they have three pro bowlers on that o-line. You can't underestimate that in my mind. My team, the chiefs, are a perfect example. Three years ago they were an offensive juggernaut. Now they are the most inept offense in the league. The central reason for that is the simultaneous retirement of Willie Roaf and Will Shields, two lineman who each have about a decade of pro bowl games under their belt. Brady, Bill, Moss, and anyone else can't do a thing without that superb line. While i wouldn't argue that you have to be able to run the football to win, you do have to control the line of scrimmage. That in my mind doesn't change at the pro level. As long as the Pats can do that, they will be tough to beat for a full 4 quarters. If the Pats go 19-0, it will be that o-line leading the way.

posted by brainofdtrain at 02:23 PM on January 01

Given the same offensive line and receivers Brady has three rings with recievers who rated a "Meh" at best. At least compared to the current bunch. And one of those against the Rams who arguably had the best set going for a while. I won't dispute that the line helps. Troy Aikman could tell you that. I don't care what you if you watch the replay closely from the Patriots-Ravens game you would realize that the "game-winning" touchdown pass from Tom Brady was incomplete due to the fact that the receiver was bobbling the pass. You're wrong. Sorry. I suffered through years of Gaffney in Houston. I've seen him bobble once or twice. He might not have had it brought into his body, but he had control the whole time.

posted by Cyrano at 02:30 PM on January 01

And since all of my Teams of Emotional Affiliation are out of it (well, not San Diego, but they're Norv Turnered so they're screwed,) I'm rooting for the Pats the same way I like to root for Triple H or Darth Vader. I want the bad guys to win.

posted by Cyrano at 02:34 PM on January 01

You know, it is guys like Gaffney that kill Pats opponents. If you are able to stop moss by doubling him, welker exposes you. If somehow you cover up both of those guys and still keep an eye on Faulk, Watson, and Stallworth (you now have about 6-7 guys in coverage to do this), then freakin Gaffney is left wide open somewhere. It's just not fair to other teams. Your only hope to put brady on his back before he checks down that far. That's just my take.

posted by brainofdtrain at 02:36 PM on January 01

Hello everyone, I'm new to sports filter. I've been reading your comments for a long time and thought I'd get in on it. I am from maine and have been a sports fan forever. wishing all of you a happy new year. Perfect timing! Maine, the other half of the Missouri Compromise. This Granite Stater welcomes you aboard, Maniac.

posted by Howard_T at 02:54 PM on January 01

thank you New Hampshire GO PIRATES! he he

posted by Mainiac at 03:47 PM on January 01

Is it Belichick? Is it Brady? cjets, I would have to say both. And also the entire team, some who do not get quite as much recognition. A true example of "team effort". But I think Bill is able to bring out the best of the players he has. A lesser coach would not have as great of results, IMO. Look at Randy Moss for example. A player who was on his way to be the next T.O. he has fit right in.

posted by steelergirl at 05:30 PM on January 01

"Silverware? Bite me, Claus. posted by rcade at 4:23 PM CST on December 31" rcade; What is wrong with silverware? Nothing like topping off a great meal by taking it down with great silverware. Someone was thinking of you while you were here on SportsFi trolling :-))

posted by Cave_Man at 06:08 PM on January 01

My team, the chiefs, are a perfect example. Three years ago they were an offensive juggernaut. Now they are the most inept offense in the league. The central reason for that is the simultaneous retirement of Willie Roaf and Will Shields, two lineman who each have about a decade of pro bowl games under their belt. I can commiserate. The Jets lowballed Pete Kendall and thought they could get through the season with a patchwork offensive line. That's a major reason why they're 4-12 And also the entire team, some who do not get quite as much recognition. A true example of "team effort". I'd agree with that. But I think Bill is able to bring out the best of the players he has. A lesser coach would not have as great of results, IMO. And I agree with that. With this caveat: Tom Brady is an exceptional quarterback. Montanaesque or maybe even Jordanesque in his ability to finish big games. Without Brady as the field general and the success he brings, does a team even buy into Belichick's philosophy, the way this team has?

posted by cjets at 06:26 PM on January 01

""game-winning" touchdown pass from Tom Brady was incomplete due to the fact that the receiver was bobbling the pass. They should be a ripe 15-1. And I stand by that. Also if we as a sports society are going to put an * on Bonds record, then that * better be following the "16-0" I don't belive in. posted by Jman2477 at 1:19 PM CST on January 1" This stuff with revising history to fit a theory is killing me. The "non touchdown" came on second down with the Patriots on something like the Baltimore 8 yard line. Plus a violation was called on a Raven defender at a point on the field away from the "non touchdown", the penalty would have caused second down to be redone with the Patriots at the Raven 4 yard line. Maybe the Patriots would not have scored a touchdown with two or three tries from the Raven 4 if the "non touchdown" had been called a non touchdown by the people that count. I won't revise history, I will let others logically figure out whether a loaded team could score against a team that was fraying at the edges, given the loaded team got two to three chances to score a TD from point blank range.

posted by Cave_Man at 06:59 PM on January 01

"Your only hope to put brady on his back before he checks down that far. That's just my take. posted by brainofdtrain at 2:36 PM CST on January 1" Brady has a tendency to look to his "hot" receiver first. Late in the Ravens game, Gaffney was the hot receiver after catching a number of balls at critical time in the game. So it made sense that Brady would check him off first (which he seemed to have done).

posted by Cave_Man at 07:10 PM on January 01

I gotcha cave man, that makes sense.

posted by brainofdtrain at 09:17 PM on January 01

:And I agree with that. With this caveat: Tom Brady is an exceptional quarterback. Montanaesque or maybe even Jordanesque in his ability to finish big games. Without Brady as the field general and the success he brings, does a team even buy into Belichick's philosophy, the way this team has? posted by cjets at 6:26 PM CST on January 1 Please, read it again: Vince Young is an exceptional quarterback. Jordanesque in his ability to finish big games. Without Young as the field general and the success he brings, does a team even buy into Mack Brown's philosophy, the way this team has? circa Jan 2006

posted by canstusdis at 10:46 PM on January 01

Please, read it again: Vince Young is an exceptional quarterback. Jordanesque in his ability to finish big games. Without Young as the field general and the success he brings, does a team even buy into Mack Brown's philosophy, the way this team has? I'm not sure I understand the comparison. Are you saying that Belichick should be compared to Mack Brown? Does he have a philosophy beyond not letting his stepson touch a ball in play (D'oh)? Or that Brady should be compared to Vince Young? Either way, I'd disagree. The point discussed earlier is simply this: Who's most responsible for the Pats success? Belichick, Brady, the offensive line, etc. The best answer is all of the above. We're just arguing about the percentages. I've watched Brady play alot. If he's not the best QB playing (certainly the most clutch QB playing), he's second. And as good as Belichick is, without that one player, I think they go from dynasty to playoff contender.

posted by cjets at 11:26 PM on January 01

I stopped posting and this thread went to hell in a hand bag. "The main troll"? Read this pile of crap again and rework your rankings buddy.

posted by Footballcrew at 01:03 PM on January 03

Or perhaps no one else was upset by ridiculous statements while you were away. Weird to see a correlation like that.

posted by yerfatma at 01:39 PM on January 03

FOOTBALLCREW!!!! Eating sour grapes on this thread also? WOW you really need to get a life. The Patriots are not going to have an * by there name. Sorry.

posted by B10 at 02:06 PM on January 03

I stopped posting and this thread went to hell in a hand bag. Funny, I thought the stench was clearing out nicely. People were talking about football rather than alternate history.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 02:32 PM on January 03

Well, if you are the Patriots you cheat!!!! Patriots = cheaters

posted by smojo123 at 04:42 PM on January 03

My god, do we need a noob filter. (or maybe a "I'm sorry, but you had an account and you blew it, so no, you cannot simply create another one and reappear under a new alias" filter would do the job)

posted by lil_brown_bat at 04:56 PM on January 03

cjets: I was just trying to support your point using an analogy I'm familiar with.

posted by canstusdis at 09:56 PM on January 03

cjets: I was just trying to support your point using an analogy I'm familiar with. I'm still not sure that the analogy works (or maybe it's because I'm a Trojan fan) but thanks for clearing that up for me, canstusdis.

posted by cjets at 07:09 PM on January 04

I thought it was a good analogy. But after picking my brain a little, I realized that it was a very good analogy. Since everyone else has moved on to other threads, maybe we can examine it in more detail if you don't mind... 2005 Regular Season In a matchup that was anticipated all season, No. 2 Texas won the national championship with a thrilling, come-from-behind victory over top-ranked Southern California in the Rose Bowl. Texas and USC were the only Division I-A teams to finish the regular season undefeated, and held the top two spots in the BCS standings all year. Borrowed from bcsfootball.org Vince Young, as a college junior, led the University of Texas Longhorns to a BCS National Championship on January 4, 2006 in a classic thriller against the defending BCS national champion University of Southern California Trojans in the 2006 Rose Bowl. The game featured two Heisman Trophy winners as Young's opponents: both USC quarterback Matt Leinart and USC running back Reggie Bush. The game was called one of the most-anticipated games in the history of college football. In perhaps the most spectacular individual college football performance ever,Young completed 75% of his passes for 267 yards and also managed to run for more yards than Bush; he totaled 200 yards at 10 yards a carry. borrowed from wikipedia.org Rose Bowl: (2) Texas 41, (1) Southern California 38 Mack Brown's Year-By-Year Coaching Record Year Record 2007 10-3 2006 10-3 2005 13-0 2004 11-1 2003 10-3 2002 11-2 2001 11-2 2000 9-3 1999 9-5 1998 9-3 borrowed from mackbrown-texasfootball.com I see some striking similarities between these two teams, don't you? And if the analogy holds true, is Belichick a "wizard"; Coach of the Year, or is Brady exceptional? "We're just arguing about the percentages." Perhaps...

posted by canstusdis at 11:00 PM on January 04

After sleeping on this a while, I think I can start to draw some conclusions on this "coach or quarterback" thing. Q: Has there ever been a great coach that didn't have a good or great quarterback? A: Well, let's look at some Super Bowl coaches that have been to more than one Super Bowl with the same quarterback. I think that's a good place to start. coach-quarterback Vince Lombardi- Bart Starr Tom Landry- Roger Staubach Don Shula-Bob Griese Chuck Noll-Terry Bradshaw Bud Grant-Fran Tarkenton Bill Walsh-Joe Montana Joe Gibbs-Joe Theismann Dan Reeves-John Elway Marv Levy-Jim Kelly Jimmy Johnson-Troy Aikman Mike Holmgren-Brett Favre Mike Shanahan-John Elway Bill Belichick-Tom Brady (This is just a quick list. If I overlooked anyone, sorry.) Most of these men are in the Football Hall of Fame.(one would be if he knew when to quit) But does this list answer the question? Let me go back to bed and sleep on it.

posted by canstusdis at 04:56 AM on January 05

O.K., let's look at another list. Let's look at Super Bowl coaches that have been to more than one Super Bowl with more than one quarterback. Tom Landry Super Bowl V with Craig Morton, lost Super Bowl VI with Roger Staubach, won Super Bowl X with Roger Staubach, lost Super Bowl XII with Roger Staubach, won Super Bowl XIII with Roger Staubach, lost Craig Morton, interestingly, is the only quarterback in NFL history to lead two different teams to the Super Bowl (Dallas in Super Bowl V, 1970, and Denver in Super Bowl XII, 1977)He lost both games. After Staubach's retirement in 1979, Landry coached for another 9 years but was unable to lead his team back to the Super Bowl. Landry's departure (firing) came shortly after the Cowboys were sold to Jerry Jones before the 1989 season. Don Shula Colts- Super Bowl III with Earl Morrall, lost Dolphins- Super Bowl VI with Bob Griese, lost Super Bowl VII with Bob Griese, won Super Bowl VIII with Bob Griese, won Super Bowl XVII with David Woodley, lost Super Bowl XIX with Dan Marino, lost In 1972 the Dolphins were unbeaten (14-0) in the regular season. They swept the playoffs and finished 17-0. For all his success, the Dolphins' January, 1974 Super Bowl win over the Minnesota Vikings proved to be Shula's last championship. Despite consistent success in the regular season, Shula was unable to win in the post-season, failing in 12 trips to the playoffs including two more Super Bowl appearances before retiring after the 1995 season. Joe Gibbs Super Bowl XVII with Joe Theismann, won Super Bowl XVIII with Joe Theismann, lost Super Bowl XXII with Doug Williams, won Super Bowl XXVI with Mark Rypien, won Gibbs is the only NFL coach to ever win three Super Bowls with three different quarterbacks and three different starting running backs. Gibbs retired suddenly in early 1993, surprising many in the Washington Redskins organization and around the league. A notorious workaholic, he had begun to suffer some health problems, and he cited a desire to spend more time with his family. In 2004, Redskins owner Daniel Snyder successfully lured former coach Joe Gibbs away from NASCAR to return as head coach and team president. His employment came with a promise of decreased intervention in football operations from Snyder. Dick Vermeil Eagles- Super Bowl XV with Ron Jaworski, lost Rams- Super Bowl XXXIV with Kirt Warner, won Soon after retiring in 2000, Vermeil signed with the Kansas City Chiefs on January 12, 2001 despite his retirement after a Super Bowl win with the St. Louis Rams. On December 31, 2005, Vermeil announced that he would again retire at the conclusion of the 2005 season, and the next day he led the Kansas City Chiefs to a 37-3 rout over the Cincinnati Bengals. However, the Chiefs failed to make the playoffs, despite their 10-6 record. Bill Parcells Giants- Super Bowl XXI with Phil Simms, won Super Bowl XXV with Jeff Hostetler, won New England Patriots- Super Bowl XXXI with Drew Bledsoe, lost Jeff Hostetler was the back-up quarterback for Phil Simms who was injured late in the 1990 season. In 1996, Parcells left the Patriots after disagreements with owner Robert Kraft. Upon his departure, Parcells stated: "If they want you to cook the dinner, at least they ought to let you shop for some of the groceries." Although Parcells had decided to leave New England, his contract did not allow him to coach anywhere else. The New York Jets sought Parcells to take over their football operation after a 4-28 record under Rich Kotite. To circumvent Parcells' contractual obligations, the Jets hired Bill Belichick (then the #1 assistant to Parcells) as the Jets coach, and Bill Parcells was hired by the Jets in an "advisory" role. New England threatened legal action against Parcells and the Jets, but NFL Commissioner Paul Tagliabue brokered a deal between the two sides. Dan Reeves Broncos- Super Bowl XXI with John Elway, lost Super Bowl XXII with John Elway, lost Super Bowl XXIV with John Elway, lost Falcons- Super Bowl XXXIII with Chris Chandler, lost Reeves was fired from the Atlanta Falcons with three games remaining in the 2003 season. Reeves' career coaching record is 201-174-2, including an 11-9 record in the playoffs. His 201 wins are currently the most ever by a coach that did not win a Super Bowl. George Seifert Super Bowl XXIV with Joe Montana, won Super Bowl XXIX with Steve Young, won Many consider Seifert to be among the greatest NFL head coaches of all time. However, critics argue that his two Super Bowl victories and exceptional win-loss record (114-62 in the regular season and 10-5 in the postseason, all with the 49ers) resulted from inheriting Bill Walsh's 49ers team. They point to his abysmal 16-32 record as head coach of the Carolina Panthers, which included no playoff appearances and ended after the 2001 season when the team finished with a 1-15 record. (once again, I just compiled this list so if anyone is missing, please post them) Going over the list it seems to me that Don Shula stands out the most. You could draw the conclusion that he's the greatest coach of the modern era, going by only the information here, although he only won two Super Bowls.

posted by canstusdis at 04:32 PM on January 05

Many consider Seifert to be among the greatest NFL head coaches of all time. What? Who? You're kidding, right?

posted by tommytrump at 04:47 PM on January 05

tommytrump: Did you read past the "However,..."? "Many consider Seifert to be among the greatest NFL head coaches of all time." Because... "...his two Super Bowl victories and exceptional win-loss record (114-62 in the regular season and 10-5 in the postseason, all with the 49ers)..." I'm not one of the many.

posted by canstusdis at 02:10 PM on January 06

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