February 25, 2008

I'm gonna go back to watching my radio now.

posted by BoKnows at 4:13 PM CDT on February 25

Meh. Frankly, Kornheiser's lone reason for existence in my consciousness is that he's a slightly larger burr in Joe Theismann's ass than he is in mine. This is just another over the top, unjustified, humorless, hypocritical rant, which is pretty much in line with Tony's MO.

posted by Ufez Jones at 4:36 PM CDT on February 25

Personally, I take great pride in the apparent fact that I annoy Tony K. almost as much as he annoys me. I've often caught a snippet of PTI and proceeded to wish for a large chunk of frozen feces to fall out of a plane, land on Tony's head, and render him no longer able to spew his vitriolic, hockey hating rhetoric.

posted by tahoemoj at 4:54 PM CDT on February 25

He has a face for telegraph . . . and a mind for infants

posted by B-2 Spirit at 5:00 PM CDT on February 25

I have never seen American Idol in it's entirety. Maybe a total of 15 minutes. i've seen more Simon on my kids' Shrek II DVD.

Who's Tony Kornheiser?

posted by THX-1138 at 5:10 PM CDT on February 25

He's someone you'd have to have a TV, radio, book or newspaper to know about.

posted by yerfatma at 5:20 PM CDT on February 25

I was joking, yerfatma.

And I was exaggerating about how much American Idol I've seen. It's closer to 12 minutes total.

posted by THX-1138 at 5:49 PM CDT on February 25

Like him or not, this just seems like baiting.

If you're saying I'm baiting you're wrong. I find sports personalities worried about bloggers pretty funny. This comes after Stephen A. Smith's comments:

And when you look at the internet business, what’s dangerous about it is that people who are clearly unqualified get to disseminate their piece to the masses. I respect the journalism industry, and the fact of the matter is ...someone with no training should not be allowed to have any kind of format whatsoever to disseminate to the masses to the level which they can. They are not trained. Not experts. More important are the level of ethics and integrity that comes along with the quote-unqoute profession hasn’t been firmly established and entrenched in the minds of those who’ve been given that license.

It was a crazy rant that was not sports-related

Sure it's sports related (related being the key word), and no one's forcing you to read it.

posted by justgary at 6:06 PM CDT on February 25

I find sports personalities worried about bloggers pretty funny.

To be frank, it's a larger issue than that. It's career-newspaper guys worried about their careers. Both Tony K and Stephen A. (neither of whom I give half a glass of water about) were J-School kiddos that paid their dues long before the word "internet" or "weblog" existed.

There's a huge crisis for dead-paper reporters at the moment. They've built their careers doing, they thought (and I can't blame them), the right thing to establish a solid life-plan. But the effing internet had to happen and all the sudden they're no longer a commodity. Internet advertising is all the sudden more lucrative than print. Henceforth, they're no longer so special, and now, they either have to assimilate to TV, radio or the web, and it kind of pisses 'em off. So it goes.

To be frank, I see the web as separating the wheat from the chaff. Those that had cushy jobs writing columns for the local market that wouldn't be read by anyone outside of 100 miles are now forced to nut up and come up with something better. The rest? Well, I guess it sucks for them that they have to deal with it, but you know what? They have to.

posted by Ufez Jones at 6:34 PM CDT on February 25

Did I miss the part where he says he hates Spofi?

He hates bloggers. Sportsfilter is a blog. Honestly, I can't believe I'm defending this or that you're complaining about it.

So when Kornheiser says he hates bloggers, I'm guessing he's referring to the moronic, ill informed blogger whose post consists of "Your team sucks. My team rules." or various references to mother jokes and dead donkey dicks that I often run across in these blogs. Do we really think that these bloggers would be missed?

No, that's not what he's said in the past (this isn't his first rant on the topic) and not what he's saying here.

Those that had cushy jobs writing columns for the local market that wouldn't be read by anyone outside of 100 miles are now forced to nut up and come up with something better.

I would hope so, but it seems that the loudest columnists, much like the loudest bloggers, generally come out on top.

posted by justgary at 7:00 PM CDT on February 25

Furthermore, dismissing my opinion with "no one's forcing you to read it" is just being obtuse.

No it's not. It's how the site works. If your opinion is that this post shouldn't be here, which you've already stated, take it to the locker room.

posted by justgary at 7:07 PM CDT on February 25

Sportsfilter is NOT a blog. It's a website. Do not go attaching that bullshit name
tag to a site that existed long before the fucking asinine "blog" nonsense.

So some guy I've never heard of hates me. Man, I wonder how much sleep I'll lose over THAT?!

posted by Drood at 7:51 PM CDT on February 25

Did I miss the part where he says he hates Spofi?

He hates bloggers. Sportsfilter is a blog. Honestly, I can't believe I'm defending this or that you're complaining about it.

It was not a complaint. It was a semi-rhetorical tongue in cheek comment cleverly designed to cover my ass in case I missed the part where he said "I hate sportsfilter."

Sportsfilter is one of fifty million blogs (and that's a conservative estimate from 2005). I just don't buy the fact that he hates blogs so he must hate Sportsfilter. I bet his kids blog. Do you think he hates them too?

So when Kornheiser says he hates bloggers, I'm guessing he's referring to the moronic, ill informed blogger whose post consists of "Your team sucks. My team rules."

No, that's not what he's said in the past (this isn't his first rant on the topic) and not what he's saying here.

I don't know what he said in the past. Nor do I care. And I have no desire to defend him. What I think is the bigger and more interesting issue is the point that he is making in this particular post.

Many blogs are bad. (Here's the American Idol site Kornheiser referenced in the post. Have fun with that for a while). Many bloggers are worse. Spofi clearly recognizes this and its members vigorously self police the site to keep the standards up. I would suggest that this means that we understand the dangers Kornheiser alludes to.

posted by cjets at 8:02 PM CDT on February 25

Stephen A. Smith thinks he's an expert? On what? The NBA? Wow, my hero. I honestly wish he'd resort to blogging and quit speaking on the air, although what he does can't be considered "speaking." He shouts. The arrogance of these pathetic little dweebs like Smith and Kornheiser anyways, thinking they are the only ones authorized to have opinions on sports, of all things.

posted by dyams at 8:19 PM CDT on February 25

To be frank, I see the web as separating the wheat from the chaff. Those that had cushy jobs writing columns for the local market that wouldn't be read by anyone outside of 100 miles are now forced to nut up and come up with something better. The rest? Well, I guess it sucks for them that they have to deal with it, but you know what? They have to.

I disagree with this pretty strongly. I see the vast majority of sportswriting on the Web not as a way to tell the story of a game or relate the experiences of an athlete, but rather a big dick contest to see who can be the most obnoxious, overly wordy tool on the Web.

Put the vast majority of these poseurs in an deadline environment, forced to write a Game Seven story or interview an unwilling subject, and they'd fold up like your grandmother's Murphy bed.

Those guys with the "cushy jobs" writing columns generally slogged their way through the backwaters and the weeklies to get where they were, learning the business and getting better. In other words, they became professionals.

posted by wfrazerjr at 8:33 PM CDT on February 25

The new phone books are in, the new phone books are in.

Now I'm somebody.

By the way, isn't Kornhole on with what's his name????

posted by Mickster at 10:37 PM CDT on February 25

I disagree with this pretty strongly.

Not surprising, given your (admittedly here on SpoFi) background.

I see the vast majority of sportswriting on the Web not as a way to tell the story of a game or relate the experiences of an athlete, but rather a big dick contest to see who can be the most obnoxious, overly wordy tool on the Web.

I don't disagree with that, either. But it's fair game now to substitute TV/magazine/radio/ or print.

I can only speak for what I've seen here in Dallas, but the former dead-tree rats are jumping ship like its sinking, and either becoming ass-hat PR clones, selling out to airline 'magazines' (?) or trying to start up their own websites. The daily (and arguably weekly) newspaper industry is as screwed at the moment as the Cinema industry is. They're both outmoded by technology, and they both, desperately, need to adapt.

It's not an indictment on you (or any former news-man *cough cough rcade*). It's just the way it is.

Anyhow, this has nothing to do with Korny's asshattery, which is, at best, ignorable.

posted by Ufez Jones at 10:58 PM CDT on February 25

Put the vast majority of these poseurs in an deadline environment, forced to write a Game Seven story or interview an unwilling subject, and they'd fold up like your grandmother's Murphy bed.

Those guys with the "cushy jobs" writing columns generally slogged their way through the backwaters and the weeklies to get where they were, learning the business and getting better. In other words, they became professionals.


Tony, is that you???

posted by Mickster at 11:03 PM CDT on February 25

What we are not is experts, with a few possible exceptions. I have never coached, played, or done play-by-play in an NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL, or any other sports-related acronym, event. It doesnt mean i dont know sports, but my "experties goes only so far, and as much as i do sometimes think he rode the short bus to school as a kid some times, TK knows a lot more than me about sports. And he knows more than the overwhelming majority of you too.

Kornheiser has never played sports.

"Mike Golic, an ESPN colleague of Kornheiser's, who had expressed skepticism regarding his prospects as an on-air analyst because he was never an athlete "

So I'm not sure what you're getting at. As far as this idea that you have to be an athlete to understand sports, I couldn't disagree more. There are plenty of example of ex players being awful analysts with non-players being fantastic.

On topic, the part of the article that stuck out to me was the 'bloggers have no sources' comment. That's his trump card. In reality he doesn't need sources for the majority of what he does because he does exactly what most bloggers do; just give opinions off the top of his head. But the sources comment is designed to draw a line between him and the bloggers.

posted by justgary at 12:58 AM CDT on February 26

I love SpoFi. Kornheiser is a douchebag.

posted by GoBirds at 5:47 AM CDT on February 26

After reading the article, I'm very disappointed in justgary for leading me on. Dammit, here I was thinking Kornheiser actually said he hated SportsFilter specifically. Then I'd know we were doing something right. Cackle.

What makes a real sports journalist? The fact that he/she is getting paid, or has a byline? Hell, I did that -- can't say I was paid a lot, but I did it. As to whether that made me a real sports journalist, I think it has to be said that at the time, my writing had a lot less critical and knowledgeable eyes on it than when I write a column or something on SpoFi. That was operating at the lower end of "real sports journalism", very small potatoes, and I had that relative lack of criticism because I knew more about sports than, and could write rings around, anyone else in the shop. But in some ways I think the same applies to "real sports journalists" who get themselves comfortably ensconced as Kornheiser has: they're Authorities, so what they say is treated as revealed wisdom by a good chunk of those who read it. Clearly the guy is shocked and outraged that any unwashed blogger would presume to have a contrary opinion, or a negative opinion on his writing.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 7:25 AM CDT on February 26

I guess I'm going to be safe here and take the middle ground, mainly because my wings have been clipped here on SF a couple of times. I also think there was complete justification for the clipping. I am a very passionate sports fan and also tend to be one sided, and a hot head. I think there is room for both types of distributing the sports of the day. I watch PTI everyday but I also am a daily reader of SF. I get a different type of information from both types of sports reporting. One from the fan(SF)and another from the print and TV media. I make an attempt to draw an opinion after I combine the two.
Both sides are protecting their turf, and are naturally going to be prejudice. However my opinion tend to side with the media person who I has some sort of experience in regard to participating in the sport they are taking about.
Example: When a person is buying a car do they value the opinion an automotive engineer who designs the car for a living or do they put more weight in the guy that is selling oranges at the supermarket.
I think SF is a great source for overall attitudes and opinions in regard to current sporting events and stories. I also love the sophisticated sport view points expressed on SF.
Keep up the good work.

posted by sportnut at 8:12 AM CDT on February 26

Not surprising, given your (admittedly here on SpoFi) background.

I'm confused here. I used to be a sportswriter and sports editor. What does "admittedly" mean? And because I used to be an ink-stained wretch, the only way I could view this is the way I do?

I admit, there are tons and tons of mediocre sportswriters out there, flailing away at keyboards, creating clunky sentences and ham-handed columns. But those guys also attend events, interview players, etc. In other words, they are actually "working" journalists, whether good or bad -- conveying a game story to a group of readers who may not be the most literate in the world.

In contrast, most of the blogging I read is masturbatory one-upsmanship -- "Hey, look at the big words and the disses I'm throwing around!" There's little or no actual "reporting" involved -- it's more leeching off beat reporters and then trashing those same guys for not being cool enough to have a blog.

Well, to most bloggers -- fuck you right in the ear. The day you're filing on a deadline, going to the ballpark and actually doing the work is the day I'll respect you. Until them, you're not much different than guys sitting in bars talking, except the guys in the bar as self-important.

I can only speak for what I've seen here in Dallas, but the former dead-tree rats are jumping ship like its sinking, and either becoming ass-hat PR clones, selling out to airline 'magazines' (?) or trying to start up their own websites. The daily (and arguably weekly) newspaper industry is as screwed at the moment as the Cinema industry is. They're both outmoded by technology, and they both, desperately, need to adapt.

The technologies are outdated, I agree, but it's not the fault of the newspaper reporters, so why hate on them? And it's not like they couldn't go and write those same stories on the Web, except that the accepted standard on the Web is not good, concise writing and game coverage -- it's bloated asshattery.

It's not like I hate the Web. I'm reading Jay Onrait's NHL live trade deadline blog right now, and this is what's good about the web. The vast majority of the rest of it? Not so much.

*pick up paper*

posted by wfrazerjr at 10:57 AM CDT on February 26

If he hates it so much why does he read it???

You are assuming that Mr. Kornheiser knows how to read.

Mr. Kornheiser is a print journalist who has had some success with the written word. That is, he is not all bad when writing, getting the interns to do his research, and organizing his thoughts when typing them. The problem with this type of reporter, when he gets a TV job, is that he does not have the time to do more than a superficial amount of research, has only a few seconds to get his point across, and above all must be either interesting or controversial enough to drive ratings upward. What I'm trying to say is that when Mr. Kornheiser says that he hates blogs, he is really trying out the words for their shock effect. If you were able to sit down with the man and do a long, in-depth interview with him, I would bet that he would admit that blogs and sites like Sports Filter have a place. Of course, we ourselves are not immune from descent into homerism, poor grammar and spelling, and most of the evils that our English Comp teacher railed against. There are a number of really good single-author blogs out there (most associated with newspapers or other media outlets) that are worth at least a more than occasional read. Thus, I take Mr. Kornheiser's rant with a grain of salt, knowing that it is empty rhetoric designed, like a 2-year-old's scream, only to get my attention.

posted by Howard_T at 1:43 PM CDT on February 26

I don't personally like Kornheiser, but I'd agree that he, and any other "sports" personality able to land a job on the biggest sports channel in the states, knows more about sports than I do. I go to work and bang on a keyboard all day, but those guys go and deal with sports and sports issues all day. How can they not have the knowledge?

Oh, it's certainly possible. The problem, if you go down that road, is that if you compare the very best of bloggers with the worst of working sports journalists, of course the latter don't look so good. Is it a valid comparison? Of two "writers", sure; of two media, absolutely not.

There's also the distinction between what (we say) we could do, and what we are doing. My big dream is to write a book about the best sporting events in the world, and if I ever do it, I think it'll be pretty goddamn good -- but until then, my dream is worth somewhat less than the actual ink that someone else puts on actual paper.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 2:07 PM CDT on February 26

Apparently he just hates one blog, really.

posted by yerfatma at 3:54 PM CDT on February 26

I'm confused here. I used to be a sportswriter and sports editor. What does "admittedly" mean? And because I used to be an ink-stained wretch, the only way I could view this is the way I do?

Not at all. It's just, like I said, not surprising. I know you're out of the industry (at least, last I heard), but I can understand your take on it. And, honestly, I value it.

I admit, there are tons and tons of mediocre sportswriters out there, flailing away at keyboards, creating clunky sentences and ham-handed columns. But those guys also attend events, interview players, etc. In other words, they are actually "working" journalists, whether good or bad -- conveying a game story to a group of readers who may not be the most literate in the world.

In contrast, most of the blogging I read is masturbatory one-upsmanship -- "Hey, look at the big words and the disses I'm throwing around!" There's little or no actual "reporting" involved -- it's more leeching off beat reporters and then trashing those same guys for not being cool enough to have a blog.

Well, to be fair, having press-passes and locker room access helps a bit.

so why hate on them?

Have I as a whole? I don't think so. I just loathe the luddite-seeming old-guard (or secure-guard) columnists that think the internet, and yes, some bloggers, have fuck-all value to the reader. I love good writing, and great sports-writers. I still read Marc Stein religiously, and relish most anything Tim Cowlishaw or Kevin Blackistone write for the DMN, albeit online.

But it's attitudes that say If a huge dumpster landed on their mother's house, and got all the way into the basement and crushed them, nobody would care. Nobody would miss them. They provide nothing good, no service that's any good at all. or fuck you right in the ear that remind be of a certain scene from Blazing Saddles.

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, fraze. I consider you one of the (admittedly fewer and fewer still) contributors to SpoFi that I respect. You're obviously more passionate about this than I am, but I felt a bit compelled to respond.

*pick up paper*

*rechecks his .rss feeds*

posted by Ufez Jones at 8:11 PM CDT on February 26