And you would think that if you were pounded on for 100 years you could develop a sharper stick. Am I the only one who misses the Frito Bandito? Go ILLINI AND BIG Desert Dog!
An NCAA executive committee "decided, more or less by fiat, decided that some institutions were going to be subject to this rule, and some institutions, for reasons that are not understandable, were exempted," Stenehjem said. How did I know this shit would be on here today? Look, I went to school there and everything, but all they had to do was bring the tribes on board and they could have gotten around it like Florida State, Central Michigan, etc. They did not do that though and they fucked themselves. I don't even think one tribe signed off on that shit or supported it. (in one of the articles it mentions that an official from Standing Rock backed the use of the nickname, but I haven't heard that before...) The Ralph Engelstad era did them no favors either (other than the sweet hockey arena). The Board of Education in ND based its decisions purely on what a jerkoff millionaire with a crush on Hitler wanted them to do. He wants the nickname, they want the nickname. Then they are surprised when the tribes tell them to go fuck themselves. Its not a real huge surprise that the Board of Higher Education backed the lawsuit unanimously, that kind of shit is much more important to them than any real education issues. As a kind of extra fuck you to everybody that opposed Engelstad, the arena has Indian head logos everywhere on the floor, the walls, etc. So he brought that shit on himself (even though he is now fucking dead when all of this is happening). The courts are jammed with stupid people complaining/suing about something. You mean like the fucking attorney general of ND? Because that is who is going to be filing the lawsuit. I'm sure that this is the most pressing law enforcement issue in ND and that they couldn't get private counsel to handle it, right? Basically it boils down to this: "or won appeals after local tribes came to their defense" No one is really coming to their defense or backing them on it would be my guess. That lack of support was something they should have thought about when they were doing all that bullshit. When you basically tell the tribes "you are being honored whether you think so or not and we won't ever stop" then what do you expect? Personally, I always hated Engelstad but did not necessarily mind the logo. They could have gotten a Sioux artist to design it and that might have helped, rather than a Chippewa one . That would mean actually understanding the difference between the two and I'm not sure they could handle that. I understand that they are saying the process was not on the level, and maybe that is correct, as far as their suit goes. Who would know more about using a flawed process to reach a decision than the ND Board of Higher Education, after all. I have always felt that the most offensive one was Chief Illiniwek because its a fucking mascot. At least UND does not have some shit like that going on. (now I've gone on too long and shouldn't write anything for about a month).
A couple of things: We've discussed this kind of issue before. It never goes over well. I treat everyone with respect and dignity regardless.Then changing the name of a few sports teams isn't such a big deal is it? Today's society doesn't want to take responsibility for their own action.Absolutely true. Which is why pretending that using the image or name of a native people who were all but scattered from the earth isn't offensive to said party, is a bit disrespectful considering the circumstances. And you would think that if you were pounded on for 100 years you could develop a sharper stickSticks don't do much for smallpox.
OK, am I missing something here? When they originally named the team the Fighting Sioux, it was because the Backward Savages was too long, right? Seriously, they chose the name because the Sioux were known as fierce and noble warriors! It's a good thing, a sign of respect. I know that the American Indians got shafted time and again, but it's sad if they're too bitter to recognize a compliment because it's offered by predominantly white men. I know that the NCAA made this decision, but decisions like this are almost always in response to complaints from activists. It's not just race related either. It's the whole PC world we live in. Remember the Washington Bullets? Now they're the Wizards because Bullets was deemed "too violent". Jeez! There are certainly things in this world that are offensive and need to have a fuss made over them, but don't cry util you're hurt.
ctal1999 I would you say you are totally qualified to make that statement of you are really a Sioux, other than that I can't imagine how you could determine what they may or may not find offensive. Too put this into perspective who well do you think a team called the NC States Jigs would go over? If you wouldn't expect the same reaction from the African-American community then I have bridge in Brooklyn I think you might like to buy.
Nicely put, ctal1999. lilnemo needs to read this. But he's probably out somewhere hugging a tree. (Just kidding nemo)
When they originally named the team the Fighting Sioux Actually the team name used to be the University of North Dakota Flickertails which apparently is a ground squirrel but sounded a little bit to weak for them I suppose. Or they felt that there were too many rodent names, with the University of Minnesota being the Golden Gophers and all. So, in about 1930 they went and changed it to University of North Dakota Fighting Sioux. Although the name "Flickertails" was discarded faster than used shitpaper, good luck trying to get them to change anything now.
Then as an Irishman, I think the Fightin'Irish" should go . It makes us all sound like drunks. Fightin Flickertails, now thats got some ass to it! How could you not go out and win every game with a name like the Fightin Flikertails?
Can't use Flickertails. The PJTF (People for the Just Treatment of Flickertails) have already said they'll protest if that name is ever used again. Seems throughout the years, these adorable little creatures were used as target practice on the ranges all over the Midwest. They were massacred by the handful. So Flickertails just won't fly nowadays.
No offense taken DD. ;) I'm glad this discussion has remained civil. So far. It's a good thing, a sign of respect. Okay, indulge me for a moment. Lets imagine that you live in a peaceful town out in the middle of the wilderness. Its pretty uninhabitable by most folks estimation, but over time your family has done well by themselves. And they've been living this way for centuries. Now lets say that an entirely new group of people moves in across the way. They seem amiable enough, and your beliefs are such that you're a pretty gregarious lot, so you trade some goods. Sure the neighbor folks try to get over on you now and then, and they seem to be passing around some kinda bug, but that ain't so bad is it? Surely not. Except they come over and kick you out of the house, and tell you to move in down the block. Then they kill Grandma and Grandpa. Then they rape your wife, maybe some of the kids. They stick you on a patch of land far from home with some nebulous promises and say good luck. Fast forward 100 years or so and now they're printing a cartoon of you, your ceremonial wear (although it looks more like someone elses), and the name of your family on t-shirts, foam fingers, bumper stickers, etc at a nice, tidy profit. For school spirit. Can you honestly say you wouldn't be offended? I know that the American Indians got shafted time and again, but it's sad if they're too bitter to recognize a compliment because it's offered by predominantly white men. I don't know if shafted, bitter, or compliment adequately articulate what you are describing. I don't think shafted quite encompasses near genocide. I don't think bitter approaches the depth of feeling that years of persecution engenders. I don't think that its a compliment when the best someone can say about you're people after offering up broken promise after broken promise is that you're a fighter. Then as an Irishman, I think the Fightin'Irish" should go... Good. Every cause needs to start somewhere. How could you not go out and win every game with a name like the Fightin Flikertails? A better question might be how could the name on your jersey affect how hard you try to win?
Well, I think that Volfire is right! As I am part Irish then I find Offense in the Fightin Irish. As what about the the people of Troy! IF they wehere alive today I bet they would find offense if a school used Trojans as a nick name. Hence USC Trojans needs to go too.
Dammit, lilnemo. I don't have a comeback for that. Nicely done. All I'm saying is that the money being used in the legal process of all of this could be used on people who need help like the elderly, homeless, etc...
All I'm saying is that the money being used in the legal process of all of this could be used on people who need help like the elderly, homeless, etc... True, but... Following a 90-minute, closed meeting with Attorney General Wayne Stenehjem, the board voted 8-0 Thursday to authorize the lawsuit. Its motion specifies that the lawsuit be financed by privately raised funds rather than taxpayer money. So, the people who are trying to use the name "Fighting Sioux" are the ones who are suing with "privately raised funds". Not those who are offended by it. They could just as easily use a non-derogatory name and do as you suggest with the funds, but they don't want to. Does that make sense?
I dont see the problem in using the names when refering to the tribal names..the line is crossed when using insulting names such as the Washington "Redskins" or that ridiculous mascot used by the Clevland Indians with his oversized teeth, humongous nose, and that stupid stereotypical ear to ear smile.
lilnemo is right. Volfire, UncleBuck, give us, the people of SpoFi, your real name and a representative photo portrait of your face, and we'll make a team mascot out of you that turns you personally into a goofy caricature and your face into a foam mascot for the next century. Oh, won't that be funny! Showing up at county fairs, opponents' games where he gets laughed at and pelted with fruit, for a hundred years or more. Anything you actually accomplish in your life will never get the press that this goofball cartoon character gets. Any attempt at relevance you may ever try in your life (or the lives of any of your descendents; your children, your grandchildren, maybe much further down your family line) will be obliterated in the face of the fact that your name and likeness are a fucking cartoon character that exists solely to be mocked and belittled. Did you read that entire paragraph? Okay. How is that different from this discussion? Hm?
I dont see the problem in using the names when refering to the tribal names Only if you ask and receive permission from the appropriate authority. I believe the Seminole nation has given this to the team in Florida. Just because you stole someone's land doesn't mean you can keep stealing. There are important cultural rights at stake, even if you don't think the particular name is derogatory. And on that topic, when the dominant culture starts up with the line "I don't find that name insulting" you know they just don't get it.
lilnemo is not only right, he rocks. He swayed me on the Washington Insensitives awhile back, and he's done gone and did it agin. Awesome stuff.
two thoughts come to mind. One, the term "fighting Sioux" is not derogatory, so I don't see the disrespect. Second, I grew up in a southern Minnesota town, yes I'm a proud Golden Gopher alumni! In the 1860's the town had numerous villagers killed, raped, etc. by the neighboring Sioux. It was after the Sioux uprising that the Indians were put on reservations. I know, that sounds horrible. Of course, the alternative would have been to treat them like they always treated their enemies...kill every last one of them. In this world, time and time again, the societies that were not able to advance out of the stone age were defeated. That is the way it works, and I'm not interested in listening to any whining about it. Civilizations that are not the strongest do not survive. Tired of all the politically correct crap. Now if we could only do something about the Golden Gopher name! Lastly, lilnemo and chicobangs, spare me...one the indians were not living in some peaceful village...they were almost constantly warring with one another. and two, the Fighting Sioux mascot is a very complementary tribute to the Sioux, it is not something that people laugh at. Besides, my heritage is on a sport team's logo...I'm proud of my Norwegian ancestry and love the Viking's logo...see, I even use it in my screen name!
I dont know why being the group that has the most influential thing in life, sports, riddled with teams with Native American references is a bad thing. Pro Sports are full of teams that are Native-related and thats not a bad thing by any means. I would be glad that my heritage has anything to do with pro sports.
In case you're not sure: the Fighting Irish example comes up every time we have this discussion. It doesn't get any cleverer. On a positive note, it hasn't become any more irrelevant.
Oh dear. That is the way it works Sorry, Mr Viking. That is most definitely not the way it works. Judging the 'success of a civilisation' (and what a culturally loaded term that is) by how many 'others' it kills/eliminates/takes over would put a few pretty disgusting empires/states/dictatorships right on top of the league table. And you want to join them?
One, the term "fighting Sioux" is not derogatory, so I don't see the disrespect. dviking, unless you're Sioux yourself, that's not for you to say. Oh, and my offer stands. You say this is no big deal? Put your money where your mouth is.
lilnemo, you and I aren't as far apart on this as you might think. The American Indians were treated HORRIBLY by our ancestors! Has enough been done since then to rectify that? No. Not just no, but Hell no! Still, the choice of that name is meant as a recognition that the Sioux are worthy of respect. Many of our ancestors may not have gotten that, but the point is that the people who selected this name, and many similar ones, DID get it. I don't understand why that should be any more offensive than if a German soccer (sorry, football) team decided on the name the Fighting Rangers after the U.S. Special Forces troops that were such amazing fighters and essential to the success of D-Day and beyond. The Germans of the 1930's and 1940's did some pretty horrific things, too. That doesn't mean that I can't appreciate an homage to our valiant troops by the Germans of today. I know that the U.S. didn't suffer as directly from the Axis powers as the Europeans did, but I think most Brits would appreciate it if the name was the Spitfires or the French if the name was the Lafayettes or something similar. Of course, the Germans lost WWII, so let's look at it from their point of view. What if the Brits named a team the Blitzkrieg? The Germans developed that strategy and used it to pummel the rest of Europe, especially London, but from a strictly military point of view, it was brilliant. Do you really think that the Germans in general would be up in arms over it? Why would anyone choose to see that as an insult? All I'm saying is that if former opponents have chosen to recognize, and even honor, your strengths, it's progress and should be seen as such.
In the 1860's the town had numerous villagers killed, raped, etc. by the neighboring Sioux. Yes. But this was after white settlers and gold prospecters overran Sioux hunting grounds and killed most of the buffalo they depended on for their survival. Not that this condones the attack but it does put it in perspective. Then again you don't see any "Fightin' Whiteys" intramural squads on the res either. It was after the Sioux uprising that the Indians were put on reservations. I know, that sounds horrible. Of course, the alternative would have been to treat them like they always treated their enemies...kill every last one of them. From the Wikipedia: When he first saw the proud Sioux... who as Diah observed, were rovers... their intelligence, superior morals, stature and manner of living...[were such] that here, in the Sioux nation, aboriginal life was most attractive." Not quite the blood thirsty savages you describe. If anything, your view of the Sioux is exactly why the name shouldn't be in use.
All I'm saying is that if former opponents have chosen to recognize, and even honor, your strengths, it's progress and should be seen as such. Okay. Even if the name is a neutral tribe name, or a non-caricatured logo, considering the history, doesn't that come across as a pretty hollow tribute? Yes. We know we slaughtered your ancestors and took your land, but doesn't this foam finger that we're making $5 on make you feel better?
When an NFL team re-establishes in LA, they can be called the Los Angeles Fightin' Whiteys. They could make a goofey caricature of me personally and make my face into a foam mascot. SWEET! But if they were called the Proud Sioux instead of the Fighting Sioux, would everyone's panties not be in a bunch?
Thats up to the NCAA and the Sioux.
I was always under the impression that to use a Native American- themed nickname for a sports team was to invoke/ honor the pride, honor, and warrior skills exhibited by Native Americans. Perhaps we should re-visit the use of these names. Do these tribes still exhibit these traits? Perhaps the modern tribes are right in wanting the removal of these names. It may not be an accurate portrayal of the people, indeed!
Second, I grew up in a southern Minnesota town, yes I'm a proud Golden Gopher alumni! In the 1860's the town had numerous villagers killed, raped, etc. by the neighboring Sioux. It was after the Sioux uprising that the Indians were put on reservations. I know, that sounds horrible. Of course, the alternative would have been to treat them like they always treated their enemies...kill every last one of them. In this world, time and time again, the societies that were not able to advance out of the stone age were defeated. I know its OT, but that is a pretty strange way of putting events like the mass hanging at Mankato, where 38 Sioux were hanged at once. Nothing like conducting nearly 400 trials in 6 weeks right? Many were guilty and many were not. Besides, if you read a book like Over the Earth I Come you get the sense that the Sioux and the white settlers were really the victims of incompetence by the U.S. government. With its attention on the civil war type situations going down, it purchased the land from the Sioux, moved the white folks in, and then did not pay for it (I'm just going from memory here) on time because of being focused on the events of the civil war. The Sioux get starved out and are told to eat the grass by the less friendly of the white traders, like Andrew Myrick. That is how atrocities happen on both sides, shit like that adding up to an explosive situation. Also, you would be mistaken to generalize regarding the Sioux Indians all participating in a war on farmers and settlers. Many saw no honor in that, staying out of it, and others actually saved the lives of white settlers. the Fighting Sioux mascot is a very complementary tribute to the Sioux, it is not something that people laugh at You mean like when the NDSU Bison fans were their Sioux suck shirts, or even the ones (which I haven't seen in awhile) that have a depiction of an Indian sucking a bison's cock? Who would be offended by something like that?
What if the Brits named a team the Blitzkrieg? Do you really think that the Germans in general would be up in arms over it? Considering how touchy a subject WWII and the Holocaust are to present day Germans, yes. I think they would.
I was always under the impression that to use a Native American- themed nickname for a sports team was to invoke/ honor the pride, honor, and warrior skills exhibited by Native Americans. Perhaps we should re-visit the use of these names. Do these tribes still exhibit these traits? Perhaps the modern tribes are right in wanting the removal of these names. It may not be an accurate portrayal of the people, indeed! On behalf of the Cherokee Western and Eastern Nations, fuck you IRUNNIKE87.
nemo, I agree that some of the representations could be in better taste and more accurate. I'd also like to see some of that cash go to the tribe in question (and maybe some scholarships for the kids, too), but the protesters aren't saying "Can you make your mascot more accurate?", or "Can we help you design a new logo that reflects our history better?". It could be, if you'll pardon the term, a team effort that would benefit everyone, but the activists refuse to see any possible good. It's bitterness, as I said before, and I guess it's understandable to a point, but seeing an opportunity to stick it to the white man rather than one to expand public knowledge of their history and to obtain a better future for the tribe (again, cash from memorablia sales, scholarships, etc.) is sad. As far as the Germans objecting to the use of a reference to the Blitz, I'd be really surprised, but the Holocaust is a whole different story because anti-Semitism is rearing its ugly head all across Europe again. That's a wound that is still raw.
btw, AMEN clones! nike87 took a cheap shot. Nice return!
1) If you want to put my face on your ass, then that's your problem , I won't sue, my wife won't even let me put it on her ass. 2) CHICO AND NEMO : get a life! This is the year 2006, we are not liv iving 100 years in the past or in the last century. Bringing up crap that is 100 years or even 50 years old holds no meaning unless your of that age. Not even in our court system, let it go.And as long as were on the lines of political correctness who gives a fuck what the Germans think. Not that I'M prejudiced because of my heritage mind you but, is this as simple as the world is going to get? Personally a British soccer team called the Blitzkrieg would be awsome. And I really don't think it would offend the Germans at all. They"ed probrably get a good laugh out of it! It's only in the US where we are still playing games, centuries old. The rest of the world has moved on, we have'nt. The brits, French , Italians don't give a rats ass what the Germans think or say, and that war is only over 50 years old. LET IT DIE and be at rest!
Myabe they should be called the "Gambling Casino Moguls", although that would probably offend Steve Wynn and his buddies. By the way, Desert Dog, I am hispanic and live in SoCal. And I believe if you pulled me over, it was because I did something wrong or you have probable cause, so please don't despair. Thank you for putting your life on the line every day to defend us.
Stick it to the white man rather than expand public knowledge of our history. There are literally thousands of books, articles, movies, web sites and museums about the truth of the Native Americans, but you persist in believing the myths and nonsense created by Hollywood. Sad if they're too bitter to recognize a compliment because it's offered by predominantly white men. No, we are angry because the white men still think they know better than we what is good for us, or what a compliment means. You would be surprised to know how many of the nations still consider themselves at war with the United States, since we signed only treaties, and never formally surrendered. There are hundreds of active court cases brought by the nations every year to fight even more treaty violations by the government.
Few nations care about the money. Even now, if these schools went to the councils or elders and spoke to them like they were men (and women) and not children, many of the nations might give their permission.
CHICO AND NEMO : get a life! Ever try attacking the issue and not the other person? Bringing up crap that is 100 years or even 50 years old holds no meaning unless your of that age. Guess this means we should put the bibles down and send the Pope home. Our work here is done. And I really don't think it would offend the Germans at all. They"ed probrably get a good laugh out of it! It's only in the US where we are still playing games, centuries old. The rest of the world has moved on, we have'nt. The brits, French , Italians don't give a rats ass what the Germans think or say, and that war is only over 50 years old. Never said they would be offended, I said its possible. Their are large portions of Germany that up until a few years ago refused to so much as speak about the Holocaust much less laugh about it. I understand what your point is. I don't mind when close friends joke about my/their nationalities/race/religion what have you. But I don't pretend to think its okay to make this value judgement for other people. Why you insist on doing so is beyond me.
Bringing up crap that is 100 years or even 50 years old holds no meaning unless your of that age. Somewhere George Santayana is crying. Know what I like about these mascot threads? Not a damn thing.
CLONES) if we left you alone what and where would you be? Would your arguments be stronger if NFL teams had no Indian head on their helmet? If you think America has forgoten your treaties and rights now, some 100 years later, what will become of you if you are not in our minds at all? Is that what you wish to erase all memory of you? Your books , articles and history will mean nothing if no one reads them. And for movies, no one is going to make a movies about someone or something that is not going to hold someones interest. It will be left to the Museums to keep your heritage alive, along with the cavemans.
This is the year 2006, we are not liv iving 100 years in the past or in the last century. Bringing up crap that is 100 years or even 50 years old holds no meaning unless your of that age. Santayana is rolling in his grave... On preview: what yerfatma said.
I am not trying to put my VALUES on anyone or make that judgement for others. I had ,nor my ancestors, anything with the treaties and or actions, against the Indian Nations. Nor did I own ar have anything to do with slavery. Why am I now responsible? And if you write argumentitive commentary, are you not trying to pass on your values to others as well? Where and what is the difference?
I think that there are other and better ways to be remembered than by insulting caricatures of your people used by sports teams. I tend to get rather heated on this subject, but only with the truly ignorant. Some of you have more than an inkling of the issue here, (di-gi-ne-li) and some of you are past any hope. I shed tears for some of these posts- for two very different reasons.
I am not trying to put my VALUES on anyone or make that judgement for others. I don't agree. You are devaluing the importance of history and suggesting that we should all forget about things that happened in the past and "get over it". And if we don't, we need to "get a life". I had ,nor my ancestors, anything with the treaties and or actions, against the Indian Nations. That's really, really, REALLY not the point. The point is, Native Americans had their entire society destroyed by European settlers, some of whose descendents now use their heritage as a team mascot, much like many other schools use ANIMALS. Then these schools are up in arms when people are offended. irunfromclones is pretty much 100% right in his comments on this thread. Nor did I own ar have anything to do with slavery. Why am I now responsible? What are you talking about?!?! And if you write argumentitive commentary, are you not trying to pass on your values to others as well? Where and what is the difference? I think in your case, "write" is pretty loosely applied.
"di-ge-ni-li" Is that a Jerry Remy reference??
Manifest Destiny. Sorry. The natives weren't able to hold off the european influx, and the whites weren't the only ones committing atrocities. This has been going on as long as civilizations have existed. If you are so thin skinned that a teams nickname upsets you, (even one that suggests you are warriors) then I suggest you bear arms with the battle cry of "Down with Andrew Jackson" and dress in buckskin regalia that has a cartoon likeness of Old Hickory on your headgear. ctal The Backward Savages: hilarious. By the way, I am 1/4 Omaha Indian, and proud of it. Still missMarlin Perkins' show, ha ha.
I gotta say, I put my 2 cents worth in this thread. While I may agree or disagree with the posts here, many of you make valid points which I never considered. Who woulda thunk it, SportsFilter is entertaining AND educational. Thanks, ya'll. Peace.
I posted this and then went off to my doctors for an appointment. I come back and man are things crazy! I'm sort of sorry I posted it in the first place!
Oh and to the couple of people who pointed it out, you are right. UND is not suing over the name, but rather over the NCAA's seemingly arbitrary enforcment of it.....my bad.
clones, I'm on your side (for the most part), and I have the feeling that if we sat down and had a cup of coffee, we'd get along pretty well. My point about the money is that I know that there are still a lot of reservations where life is very hard and opportunities are limited. So many people think that every member of every tribe is rolling in casino money, but of course, that's crap! There are a lot of communities that could benefit immensely from an in flow of cash, and they deserve it. I also realize that the nations are constantly fighting the U.S. government in court, and the money wouldn't hurt there either. I'm pretty sure you're right about what would happen if the schools would send representatives to the tribal councils, too. Where you're wrong, at least about me, is that I don't think I know better than you do. I just know things from my own point of view, and I don't understand yours, but I'd like to. Why is it an insult for white men to recognize the nobility and strength of your ancestors? I can only speak for myself, but I sincerely feel that way. I want to see the future of all the nations continue to improve. There have been some very ugly portions of our history, but I want to see things get better. It just seems like you can't accept that many of us have come to realize that all of your people deserve better than they've gotten and that they and their history and culture are worthy of respect. It's certain that not everyone agrees (just look at some of the other posts!), and some who do agree could express it much better and with more understanding, but I can't understand why anyone would think that when ND chose the name, that they could have done so if they thought that the Sioux were anything but a remarkable people...and if they thought that, where's the insult?
CC, it was a good post. Don't be sorry. This kind of issue comes up once or twice a year, and it's good to talk about it. Some folks are hopeless, but some will get their minds expanded.
I guess my problem is the inconsistency of the NCAA policy. Florida State gets a bye, not because their mascot is not offensive ever (because it surely is), but because the Seminole Tribe of Florida endorsed it, for whatever reason (likely financial). The Tribe for this particular group gets to decide for everyone else what is and is not offensive (contrast that with Jesse Jackson making money from an offensive team name thereby making the team name no longer offensive). It makes it confusing when there is not a universal stance to Native American nicknames. They are bad, unless the Tribe is making money off the deal. The NCAA jumped into this heated issue without being clear as to the facts, and then have had to backtrack on a case-by-case basis.
Tell me the truth this time Is the Man in the Mask or the Indian An enemy or a friend of mine? Yerfatma will get the reference, with the title of the song being appropriate for the thread
There's no saving us. And they said Oh Little Slanted Eyes can't you forgive and forget And he said, Oh Mr Friendly Ghost Can you catch water in a net?
One of them's off her food and the other one's off his head And both of them are off down the boozer Where they drink a toast To the one he hates most And she says there are no winners only losers And if there are no losers Then what is this he thinks As he watches her complete a lap of honour...
Momma said stupid is as stupid does.
How come I haven't heard anyone object to the name of this: 
Why is it an insult for white men to recognize the nobility and strength of your ancestors? Let me get this straight: you're denying these people their right to react honestly to someone else using their name, history and likeness for commercial purposes? They're not allowed their own opinion? Seriously? That's kind of condescending and rude, don't you think?
Chico...seriously, did you even read the rest of the post? I asked the question because I don't understand WHY some American Indians feel that way. It doesn't make sense to me and I would legitimately like to understand where they're coming from.
ctal, I should have pulled a half-dozen more quotes out of this thread, all of which pointed at my question. I was just being lazy, and I didn't mean to call you out personally. My point was that one of the reasons this conversation keeps coming up is that that's not always an answerable question. I don't feel comfortable with any side of this discussion, and it's because I hear too many people speaking on other people's behalf. That's not my only problem with this discussion, but I already feel like I'm trolling.
As a American of Spanish heritage, I now want to be known as a Southwest European transplanted Hispanic-American. And I feel that the United States and it's Anglo-Saxon citizentry should pay restitution to my people for the lands they took away from us as well. I also want the NFL Cleveland team to change its' name. I think they are throwing my race a red herring when they say the team was named after its founder. No more Cleveland Browns. It is an insult to Hispanics. After all, you wouldn't call them the Cleveland Caucasians, would you?
Most sports teams' names are meant to connote fierceness/toughness/
nobility..Lions, Wildcats, Bears, etc...but I can understand why some members of indigenous nations find the names, logos, and mascots offensive. People attending games/pep rallies/whatever may not intend to be insulting. However--imagine if you were a member of an indigenous nation and you saw non-native peoples wearing headdresses and gear; and doing "Indian" chants and beating on drums--all of which have religious/spiritual significance. Wouldn't you find that a bit insulting? I do--and I'm a caucosoid (1/8 Cherokee--but not on the tribal roll.) It wouldn't bother me one iota if team names that some consider offensive were changed; I'm sure most people would still support their favorite college/pro sports teams regardless of the team names/logos/mascots changing or not. (I'm an SDSU fan and a Canucks fan--if those teams' names/logos/mascots were to be changed because enough people found them offensive, then I'd still follow and support SDSU sports and Vancouver hockey.)
Thanks for the clarification, chico. There have been some pretty putrid posts on this one, but I certainly didn't want anyone to see one of mine that way.
I am Blackfoot and to be perfectly honest I dont give a shit about any nickname. I have enough problems trying to raise two young boys who dont understand why they are treated so differently. I am a redskins fan for crying out loud ...who !@#$ cares it is all about these b.s. activists that is all it is they dont give a crap about native americans they just want to line their pockets and use us some more to their own benefit. Pound on me another 100 years asshole and see where it gets you probably a f...in cowboys fan
Ugh, me thinkum heap big pile of shit over nothing. "Indian" is a misnomer, anyway. Colombus thought he was in the West Indies, for cryin' out loud, so are they even referring to native Americans? Anyway, I sure haven't heard anyone from Bombay complaining about the Cleveland ballclub. And what could a tribe complain about being called Braves, or Warriors, or fighting whatevers? (I just hope the ladies squads at these schools aren't called the squaws, I'm sure we'd have heard about THAT by now). If it is a big deal, I say, keep the name, and change the mascot to some guy in a green leprechaun suit and call it good. Most Irishmen I know would consider it a compliment to be called those names. Political Correctness is what is getting out of hand, in my opinion. The local AA Texas League team is called the Rockhounds, and the mascot is the goofiest looking dog you've ever seen, yet I do not know of a single, solitary geologist that is offended by this. Ok, Ok, I am making light of this matter, but I really think, after visiting several reservations, that there are more pressing issues that we can take care of for these people, little things like education, health care, and job training. Maybe my priorities are wrong..... joecab, thanx for the laugh.
Laughed MAO skins fan!
The Star Tribune article included this paragraph: At the suggestion of a Dakota spiritual elder who visited the campus, UND changed plans to paint a Sioux logo on an athletic court floor, Kupchella said, and stopped calling its concession-stand hot dogs "Siouxper dogs." That's right, in the middle of this controversy over the use of the name for the team itself they thought it was a smart idea to market the hot dogs at the games as "Siouxper Dogs" and the bottled water as "HsiouxO". These guys are not fucking geniuses. Someone a little smarter could have reached out to the tribes sooner, gotten them on board, squashed this shit at that point, and avoided the shitstorm. Instead things end up where they are today.
I WEAR WHITE SOX...THAT NICKNAME HAS GOT TO GO! PEOPLE ARE WAY TOO SENSATIVE!
The stench of idiocy in this thread has finally gotten to the point that it makes my eyes water just being in here. If only it were as easy to identify dumbasses in the real world as it is in here, life would be pretty simple. He said, as a proud graduate of Choctawhatchee High School...the Big Green Indians. Sigh.
And that turns out to be my 1,000th post. All this time, I'd been saving it for someone special, and it ends up wasted on the rocks of this particular boondoggle. I feel so nonplussed.
mjkredliner: Ugh, me thinkum heap big pile of shit over nothing. ...and isn't it amazing how easy it is to come to that conclusion and dismiss the whole issue when it's not your ox that's being gored? TBH: The stench of idiocy in this thread has finally gotten to the point that it makes my eyes water just being in here. It would possibly be a whole lot less stupid if one, just one of the dumbasses could answer the question of how a tribe is "honored" by some drunk white fratboy putting on a bunch of costume-store feathers and paint and making an ass of himself in public. However, as much as they have to say about the issue, they're consistently silent on that point.
It all boils down to WINS, if ND was winiing in most of their teams were in the top 5 in the Nation no-one would have a problem. The Seminols are alway nationally ranked in Football FSU's biggest sport, so no-one has a problem, if they were always dead last or at the bottom, the name would change over night.
If they were the Fighting Jews this wouldn't even be up for discussion. I love how it's "ancient history" when members of a Native American group expect not to be caricatured and trivialized, but it's "tradition" to keep using names like the Redskins. The NCAA has the right to decide the rules under which teams may compete in its events. If UND doesn't want to follow those rules, the school should persuade other NCAA members to overturn the rule or find some other intercollegiate athletic group more to their liking. It's wrong for the state to clog the courts because they don't like the rule.
This issue does nothing but make me sick. Some of you are so horribly and woefully misinformed its embarassing. Bottom line - if it's "not a big deal" that these team have these disgusting racist names then why is it a big deal that they change them? It's a fucking school team name - it is not honouring anyone. Least of all the people that are grossly misrepresented by your ignorant asses. Forget it. I change my mind. I'm with you guys now - all you strong, virile men who know how people really should feel about this. And if I ever get rich enough, I'm making a huge donation to your school provided they change the team name to the "Fighting Jesuses". Mostly because I think it honours Jesus, and I'm pretty sure he could kick a lot of ass (in a spiritual sense). I mean, sure I'm not a Christian, but that obviously has nothing to do with anything. I'm not a Jew so I, nor my ancestors, persecuted him, right? And hell, the mascot could be a bearded, robed dude hucking a cross - instead of the end of the cross being wood though, it could be a spear and have a little blood dripping off of it - because we would smite our enemies on the football field! We could sell fried fish in the stands! And fake beards (but only come playoff time)! And all those goofy sensitive Christians can go fuck themselves if they can't take a compliment.
Wow. My friday is complete, nothing says weekend like urine stained pants. I'd start watching college ball just cheer on the fight Jesuses.
Here's the Fighting Jesuses mascot Jesuses, Jesusses or Jesi?
Thanks for the support Hater. I'll have your promo package in the mail soon. It will contain a big foam cross that says "we're number one", a copy of the team newsletter "The Gospel of Holy Touchdowns" (this month's issue has a great recipe for the "Cup of Salvation" - it's the official cocktail of the Fighting Jesuses - but, remember, we do not condone underage drinking of any sort) and a handy guide to our traditional battle hymns and group celebrations - including how to particpate in The Big Communion - which is the official fan touchdown celebration. You start pretending to pray and then rise to your feet as one, point towards heaven and throw bread in the direction of the opposition. Welcome aboard, and we remind our fans to conduct themselves with the utmost class - we're representing God himself here, people.
Ahh but lbb, it is my ox being gored. My grandad attended Haskell School for Indians, and his father attended Carlisle, and both suffered indignities far greater than those incurred by the naming of a team "Indian". My grandpa thinks much like our esteemed guest to this column, skins fan, in that many of the people who are making a big deal about this are disingenuis and/or have ulterior motives, and that there are other more important things to worry about, and I am inclined to agree. (Touchdown Jesus is old hat, too :)
WON'T ANYONE THINK OF THE OXEN?
Fighting Sioux .... hmm, maybe the Sioux would like it better as the Hammering Honkies!
My grandpa thinks much like our esteemed guest to this column, skins fan, in that many of the people who are making a big deal about this are disingenuis and/or have ulterior motives, and that there are other more important things to worry about, and I am inclined to agree. And your grandpa and our "esteemed guest" can both read minds, can they? Okay, out with it: in what way are the people who (in your opinion) are making a "big deal about this" in this thread disingenuous? What would their ulterior motives be? You are, of course, the sole arbiter of whether there are more important things for you to worry about...but while we're on the subject of other people's psyches, I always wonder at those who raise vehement objections to how others spend their time. If you know someone who likes to spend all weekend, every weekend, playing a sport that you're not interested in, do you shout in his/her ear about how that sport is "not important" and a waste of time?
And as long as were on the lines of political correctness... Blanketing things as PC or as racist by default are opposite sides of the same stupid, oversimplified so the world is black and white to me coin. If this issue is legit to a group of people, then IMO it deserves a look. Like others have clarified, that's what this lawsuit is about: that they didn't get a fair look via the established process. Thanks to lilnemo, owlhouse, irunfromclones and the rest of the enlightenment crew. Saved me from my bumbling, fuming keystrokes that couldn't have said it better anyway. Special thanks to Chris2sy for the local flavor and background.
Mr Frisby is too funny...love the Jeep Cheerokee reference. Historical update, the hangings at Mankato were after the Indians slaughtered women and children. But, who cares, that war was two centuries ago. I have as a Vikings fan seen a logo that depicts my ancestors degraded numerous times, and never have I thought that the Packer/Bears/Lions/whatever fan doing the degration was insensitive to my Norwegian heritage. Nor do I take any offense at the Capital One credit card commericals that depict the savage Viking warriors as too dumb to get any real jobs. I'm off for the weekend, you politically correct types will have to bash someone else for a while. Now, what should we have for dinner?? I'm thinking buffalo burgers, or maybe Swedish meatballs. Can't stand those Swedes!
Ok, I can see a massacre on the horizon and will now circle the wagons: lbb: I did not implicilty refer to anyone in this thread as making a big deal out of this or having having ulterior motives, but, your analogy is relevant, if somewhat vague. There is no shortage of literature about this subject on the web, this features much of the same logic and arguments as my opponents in this debate, and is otherwise quite educational. For those of you throwing terms such as idiot and dumbass around, and being made sick, you are not the fucking geniuses you think you are, and some of you have no dog in this fight. If you choose to be offended by the use of "Indian" stereotypes as mascots, then you have every right to. Me and mine choose not to be. (I made a special phone call to my grandpa, he assured me he will get over it.) Me smokum peace pipe now.
If it offends the majority of native americans I think some names should be changed. I'd like to see some statistical polls taken from native americans. I know some tribes have given their blessing to names such as the Seminoles. I just wonder if it is a true sentiment of the majority or if it is a few political activists that like the drama.
ctal1999- you and I could have a cup of coffee together anytime. I like to think that most folks aren't bigoted; they just don't have enough information or they have the wrong information. I'm not expecting everyone to major in Native American history, although at least one class should be mandatory for any college degree. Why is it an insult for white men to recognize the nobility and strength of your ancestors? It depends on the context. I have no problem if it is done with dignity and respect, and with the permission of the respective nation. What continues to puzzle me is why this is still an issue. The Cleveland Indians logo and the Washington Redskins are two great examples. Both are considered derogatory to many Native Americans, but not to most whites. We are ignored or as in this thread, further ostracized for being over-sensitive for not pleased at being honored in this fashion. How long ago would both have changed if it were the Cleveland Blacks with an Uncle Tom logo, or a name like the Washington N*ggers?
I never really understood how school mascots were chosen it all seems rather arbitrary to me. I grew up in New York but my pops is a Michagander who loathes pro sports but is a huge University of Michcigan fan. For years I was wondered what a hairy, Canadian, mutant had to do with football but then he told me they were named after an animal, not a comic book character. My dad just walked away from me shaking his head.
As an Irishman, those goddamned Notre Dame Fighting Irish offend me too. Grr. People really need to get a grip and stop being offended by stupid BS political corretness. It's not like Native Americans are the only heritage for which there are mascots in sports. Why don't we bring PETA into this too so they can stick up for those Huskies whos names are being wrongfully used in college sports.
Becuase insulting an animal and a human collective are rather different, don't you think? Again, why is it ancient history when we discuss native relations, but tradition when we talk about a fucking sports team name. Have a clue. For those of you throwing terms such as idiot and dumbass around, and being made sick, you are not the fucking geniuses you think you are, and some of you have no dog in this fight. If you choose to be offended by the use of "Indian" stereotypes as mascots, then you have every right to. Me and mine choose not to be. So if you're not offended then why continue to fight against those that are offended? If it's not a big deal to you then it's okay to change the names. N'est pas? Good, glad we can finally agree.
STFU about Notre Dame. That or explain to me how it's the same. But, who cares, that war was two centuries ago. You'd be better be trolling. Or Guy Pearce's character from Memento. What's the statue of limitations on Very Bad Things in your system? A day? Two?
