FanDuel - WFBC

June 15, 2006

UND to sue NCAA over it's name: Here we go again. The semi-annual fight over the use of Indian names by sports teams. I lived in Grand Forks for nearly 4 years and I didn't see anything wrong with the Fighting Sioux, but then again I'm not a Native American.

posted by commander cody to culture at 02:03 PM - 150 comments

People are way too fucking sensitive.

posted by Desert Dog at 02:23 PM on June 15

Especially if you pound on them for a few hundred years. Pussies.

posted by yerfatma at 03:01 PM on June 15

All someone has to do today is complain about something and some how it will get changed. The courts are jammed with stupid people complaining/suing about something. If the old fashioned grand-fathers and great grand-fathers of these complainers were still alive, they would probably smack their stupid kids and tell them to get some respect. The sad thing is, it will get far worse before it ever gets better.

posted by dbt302 at 03:02 PM on June 15

DD, you must mean the NCAA here, right? Also, I think the suit would be because in UND's opinion the NCAA have been selective in their penalization policy.

posted by slackerman at 03:04 PM on June 15

Sure, and the Bosnian Serbs can call their soccer team "The Fightin' Muslims". The only thing stupider than these racist nicknames is the emotional attachment people place on them.

posted by rumple at 03:04 PM on June 15

I don't even think I need to look it up -- Stenehjem is running for re-election, isn't he? Just political b.s. so he can get in good with his constituency. I don't see anything particularily offensive with the Fighting Sioux, but, then again, if there was a local college with the nickname of The Latino Sensations and the logo was a smiling mustachioed guy with a bottle of tequila waving a sombrero and dancing around a cactus, I might have to write a letter to someone.

posted by forrestv at 03:06 PM on June 15

This suit is based on the NCAA process not on the merits. UND isn't arguing that the name is not offensive, just that the way the NCAA made the decision was flawed. I agree. The NCAA rushed into this decision. Fighting Sioux is not anymore offensive than the Seminoles, but politics intervened in the process.

posted by bperk at 03:14 PM on June 15

No, slackerman, I mean everybody in general. I'm a deputy in So. California and everybody uses the race card every chance they get. It's ridiculous. "The only reason you stopped me is because I'm black" or "Mexican" or whatever. I was raised to respect people regardless of their race, religion, sexual preference, political affiliation, hair-do, etc... I treat everyone with respect and dignity regardless. Today's society doesn't want to take responsibility for their own action. It's always someone elses fault. And I know racism still exists. There are a lot bigger fish to fry than worrying about nicknames. Spend the money to put up more youth centers or homeless shelters. Call me white boy, cracker, pig or anything else that floats your boat, I don't care. If you need to fight for something, fight for true injustices taking place. Sorry for the preaching.

posted by Desert Dog at 03:35 PM on June 15

And you would think that if you were pounded on for 100 years you could develop a sharper stick. Am I the only one who misses the Frito Bandito? Go ILLINI AND BIG Desert Dog!

posted by volfire at 03:40 PM on June 15

An NCAA executive committee "decided, more or less by fiat, decided that some institutions were going to be subject to this rule, and some institutions, for reasons that are not understandable, were exempted," Stenehjem said. How did I know this shit would be on here today? Look, I went to school there and everything, but all they had to do was bring the tribes on board and they could have gotten around it like Florida State, Central Michigan, etc. They did not do that though and they fucked themselves. I don't even think one tribe signed off on that shit or supported it. (in one of the articles it mentions that an official from Standing Rock backed the use of the nickname, but I haven't heard that before...) The Ralph Engelstad era did them no favors either (other than the sweet hockey arena). The Board of Education in ND based its decisions purely on what a jerkoff millionaire with a crush on Hitler wanted them to do. He wants the nickname, they want the nickname. Then they are surprised when the tribes tell them to go fuck themselves. Its not a real huge surprise that the Board of Higher Education backed the lawsuit unanimously, that kind of shit is much more important to them than any real education issues. As a kind of extra fuck you to everybody that opposed Engelstad, the arena has Indian head logos everywhere on the floor, the walls, etc. So he brought that shit on himself (even though he is now fucking dead when all of this is happening). The courts are jammed with stupid people complaining/suing about something. You mean like the fucking attorney general of ND? Because that is who is going to be filing the lawsuit. I'm sure that this is the most pressing law enforcement issue in ND and that they couldn't get private counsel to handle it, right? Basically it boils down to this: "or won appeals after local tribes came to their defense" No one is really coming to their defense or backing them on it would be my guess. That lack of support was something they should have thought about when they were doing all that bullshit. When you basically tell the tribes "you are being honored whether you think so or not and we won't ever stop" then what do you expect? Personally, I always hated Engelstad but did not necessarily mind the logo. They could have gotten a Sioux artist to design it and that might have helped, rather than a Chippewa one . That would mean actually understanding the difference between the two and I'm not sure they could handle that. I understand that they are saying the process was not on the level, and maybe that is correct, as far as their suit goes. Who would know more about using a flawed process to reach a decision than the ND Board of Higher Education, after all. I have always felt that the most offensive one was Chief Illiniwek because its a fucking mascot. At least UND does not have some shit like that going on. (now I've gone on too long and shouldn't write anything for about a month).

posted by chris2sy at 03:50 PM on June 15

A couple of things: We've discussed this kind of issue before. It never goes over well. I treat everyone with respect and dignity regardless.
Then changing the name of a few sports teams isn't such a big deal is it? Today's society doesn't want to take responsibility for their own action.
Absolutely true. Which is why pretending that using the image or name of a native people who were all but scattered from the earth isn't offensive to said party, is a bit disrespectful considering the circumstances. And you would think that if you were pounded on for 100 years you could develop a sharper stick
Sticks don't do much for smallpox.

posted by lilnemo at 03:59 PM on June 15

OK, am I missing something here? When they originally named the team the Fighting Sioux, it was because the Backward Savages was too long, right? Seriously, they chose the name because the Sioux were known as fierce and noble warriors! It's a good thing, a sign of respect. I know that the American Indians got shafted time and again, but it's sad if they're too bitter to recognize a compliment because it's offered by predominantly white men. I know that the NCAA made this decision, but decisions like this are almost always in response to complaints from activists. It's not just race related either. It's the whole PC world we live in. Remember the Washington Bullets? Now they're the Wizards because Bullets was deemed "too violent". Jeez! There are certainly things in this world that are offensive and need to have a fuss made over them, but don't cry util you're hurt.

posted by ctal1999 at 04:09 PM on June 15

ctal1999 I would you say you are totally qualified to make that statement of you are really a Sioux, other than that I can't imagine how you could determine what they may or may not find offensive. Too put this into perspective who well do you think a team called the NC States Jigs would go over? If you wouldn't expect the same reaction from the African-American community then I have bridge in Brooklyn I think you might like to buy.

posted by HATER 187 at 04:16 PM on June 15

Nicely put, ctal1999. lilnemo needs to read this. But he's probably out somewhere hugging a tree. (Just kidding nemo)

posted by Desert Dog at 04:16 PM on June 15

When they originally named the team the Fighting Sioux Actually the team name used to be the University of North Dakota Flickertails which apparently is a ground squirrel but sounded a little bit to weak for them I suppose. Or they felt that there were too many rodent names, with the University of Minnesota being the Golden Gophers and all. So, in about 1930 they went and changed it to University of North Dakota Fighting Sioux. Although the name "Flickertails" was discarded faster than used shitpaper, good luck trying to get them to change anything now.

posted by chris2sy at 04:22 PM on June 15

Then as an Irishman, I think the Fightin'Irish" should go . It makes us all sound like drunks. Fightin Flickertails, now thats got some ass to it! How could you not go out and win every game with a name like the Fightin Flikertails?

posted by volfire at 04:47 PM on June 15

Can't use Flickertails. The PJTF (People for the Just Treatment of Flickertails) have already said they'll protest if that name is ever used again. Seems throughout the years, these adorable little creatures were used as target practice on the ranges all over the Midwest. They were massacred by the handful. So Flickertails just won't fly nowadays.

posted by Desert Dog at 04:54 PM on June 15

No offense taken DD. ;) I'm glad this discussion has remained civil. So far. It's a good thing, a sign of respect. Okay, indulge me for a moment. Lets imagine that you live in a peaceful town out in the middle of the wilderness. Its pretty uninhabitable by most folks estimation, but over time your family has done well by themselves. And they've been living this way for centuries. Now lets say that an entirely new group of people moves in across the way. They seem amiable enough, and your beliefs are such that you're a pretty gregarious lot, so you trade some goods. Sure the neighbor folks try to get over on you now and then, and they seem to be passing around some kinda bug, but that ain't so bad is it? Surely not. Except they come over and kick you out of the house, and tell you to move in down the block. Then they kill Grandma and Grandpa. Then they rape your wife, maybe some of the kids. They stick you on a patch of land far from home with some nebulous promises and say good luck. Fast forward 100 years or so and now they're printing a cartoon of you, your ceremonial wear (although it looks more like someone elses), and the name of your family on t-shirts, foam fingers, bumper stickers, etc at a nice, tidy profit. For school spirit. Can you honestly say you wouldn't be offended? I know that the American Indians got shafted time and again, but it's sad if they're too bitter to recognize a compliment because it's offered by predominantly white men. I don't know if shafted, bitter, or compliment adequately articulate what you are describing. I don't think shafted quite encompasses near genocide. I don't think bitter approaches the depth of feeling that years of persecution engenders. I don't think that its a compliment when the best someone can say about you're people after offering up broken promise after broken promise is that you're a fighter. Then as an Irishman, I think the Fightin'Irish" should go... Good. Every cause needs to start somewhere. How could you not go out and win every game with a name like the Fightin Flikertails? A better question might be how could the name on your jersey affect how hard you try to win?

posted by lilnemo at 04:58 PM on June 15

Well, I think that Volfire is right! As I am part Irish then I find Offense in the Fightin Irish. As what about the the people of Troy! IF they wehere alive today I bet they would find offense if a school used Trojans as a nick name. Hence USC Trojans needs to go too.

posted by UncleBuck at 05:02 PM on June 15

Dammit, lilnemo. I don't have a comeback for that. Nicely done. All I'm saying is that the money being used in the legal process of all of this could be used on people who need help like the elderly, homeless, etc...

posted by Desert Dog at 05:11 PM on June 15

All I'm saying is that the money being used in the legal process of all of this could be used on people who need help like the elderly, homeless, etc... True, but... Following a 90-minute, closed meeting with Attorney General Wayne Stenehjem, the board voted 8-0 Thursday to authorize the lawsuit. Its motion specifies that the lawsuit be financed by privately raised funds rather than taxpayer money. So, the people who are trying to use the name "Fighting Sioux" are the ones who are suing with "privately raised funds". Not those who are offended by it. They could just as easily use a non-derogatory name and do as you suggest with the funds, but they don't want to. Does that make sense?

posted by lilnemo at 05:19 PM on June 15

I dont see the problem in using the names when refering to the tribal names..the line is crossed when using insulting names such as the Washington "Redskins" or that ridiculous mascot used by the Clevland Indians with his oversized teeth, humongous nose, and that stupid stereotypical ear to ear smile.

posted by NoAirplay at 05:23 PM on June 15

lilnemo is right. Volfire, UncleBuck, give us, the people of SpoFi, your real name and a representative photo portrait of your face, and we'll make a team mascot out of you that turns you personally into a goofy caricature and your face into a foam mascot for the next century. Oh, won't that be funny! Showing up at county fairs, opponents' games where he gets laughed at and pelted with fruit, for a hundred years or more. Anything you actually accomplish in your life will never get the press that this goofball cartoon character gets. Any attempt at relevance you may ever try in your life (or the lives of any of your descendents; your children, your grandchildren, maybe much further down your family line) will be obliterated in the face of the fact that your name and likeness are a fucking cartoon character that exists solely to be mocked and belittled. Did you read that entire paragraph? Okay. How is that different from this discussion? Hm?

posted by chicobangs at 05:25 PM on June 15

I dont see the problem in using the names when refering to the tribal names Only if you ask and receive permission from the appropriate authority. I believe the Seminole nation has given this to the team in Florida. Just because you stole someone's land doesn't mean you can keep stealing. There are important cultural rights at stake, even if you don't think the particular name is derogatory. And on that topic, when the dominant culture starts up with the line "I don't find that name insulting" you know they just don't get it.

posted by owlhouse at 05:32 PM on June 15

lilnemo is not only right, he rocks. He swayed me on the Washington Insensitives awhile back, and he's done gone and did it agin. Awesome stuff.

posted by garfield at 05:41 PM on June 15

two thoughts come to mind. One, the term "fighting Sioux" is not derogatory, so I don't see the disrespect. Second, I grew up in a southern Minnesota town, yes I'm a proud Golden Gopher alumni! In the 1860's the town had numerous villagers killed, raped, etc. by the neighboring Sioux. It was after the Sioux uprising that the Indians were put on reservations. I know, that sounds horrible. Of course, the alternative would have been to treat them like they always treated their enemies...kill every last one of them. In this world, time and time again, the societies that were not able to advance out of the stone age were defeated. That is the way it works, and I'm not interested in listening to any whining about it. Civilizations that are not the strongest do not survive. Tired of all the politically correct crap. Now if we could only do something about the Golden Gopher name! Lastly, lilnemo and chicobangs, spare me...one the indians were not living in some peaceful village...they were almost constantly warring with one another. and two, the Fighting Sioux mascot is a very complementary tribute to the Sioux, it is not something that people laugh at. Besides, my heritage is on a sport team's logo...I'm proud of my Norwegian ancestry and love the Viking's logo...see, I even use it in my screen name!

posted by dviking at 05:41 PM on June 15

I dont know why being the group that has the most influential thing in life, sports, riddled with teams with Native American references is a bad thing. Pro Sports are full of teams that are Native-related and thats not a bad thing by any means. I would be glad that my heritage has anything to do with pro sports.

posted by Clevelander32 at 05:44 PM on June 15

In case you're not sure: the Fighting Irish example comes up every time we have this discussion. It doesn't get any cleverer. On a positive note, it hasn't become any more irrelevant.

posted by yerfatma at 05:45 PM on June 15

Oh dear. That is the way it works Sorry, Mr Viking. That is most definitely not the way it works. Judging the 'success of a civilisation' (and what a culturally loaded term that is) by how many 'others' it kills/eliminates/takes over would put a few pretty disgusting empires/states/dictatorships right on top of the league table. And you want to join them?

posted by owlhouse at 05:48 PM on June 15

One, the term "fighting Sioux" is not derogatory, so I don't see the disrespect. dviking, unless you're Sioux yourself, that's not for you to say. Oh, and my offer stands. You say this is no big deal? Put your money where your mouth is.

posted by chicobangs at 05:54 PM on June 15

lilnemo, you and I aren't as far apart on this as you might think. The American Indians were treated HORRIBLY by our ancestors! Has enough been done since then to rectify that? No. Not just no, but Hell no! Still, the choice of that name is meant as a recognition that the Sioux are worthy of respect. Many of our ancestors may not have gotten that, but the point is that the people who selected this name, and many similar ones, DID get it. I don't understand why that should be any more offensive than if a German soccer (sorry, football) team decided on the name the Fighting Rangers after the U.S. Special Forces troops that were such amazing fighters and essential to the success of D-Day and beyond. The Germans of the 1930's and 1940's did some pretty horrific things, too. That doesn't mean that I can't appreciate an homage to our valiant troops by the Germans of today. I know that the U.S. didn't suffer as directly from the Axis powers as the Europeans did, but I think most Brits would appreciate it if the name was the Spitfires or the French if the name was the Lafayettes or something similar. Of course, the Germans lost WWII, so let's look at it from their point of view. What if the Brits named a team the Blitzkrieg? The Germans developed that strategy and used it to pummel the rest of Europe, especially London, but from a strictly military point of view, it was brilliant. Do you really think that the Germans in general would be up in arms over it? Why would anyone choose to see that as an insult? All I'm saying is that if former opponents have chosen to recognize, and even honor, your strengths, it's progress and should be seen as such.

posted by ctal1999 at 06:06 PM on June 15

In the 1860's the town had numerous villagers killed, raped, etc. by the neighboring Sioux. Yes. But this was after white settlers and gold prospecters overran Sioux hunting grounds and killed most of the buffalo they depended on for their survival. Not that this condones the attack but it does put it in perspective. Then again you don't see any "Fightin' Whiteys" intramural squads on the res either. It was after the Sioux uprising that the Indians were put on reservations. I know, that sounds horrible. Of course, the alternative would have been to treat them like they always treated their enemies...kill every last one of them. From the Wikipedia: When he first saw the proud Sioux... who as Diah observed, were rovers... their intelligence, superior morals, stature and manner of living...[were such] that here, in the Sioux nation, aboriginal life was most attractive." Not quite the blood thirsty savages you describe. If anything, your view of the Sioux is exactly why the name shouldn't be in use.

posted by lilnemo at 06:22 PM on June 15

All I'm saying is that if former opponents have chosen to recognize, and even honor, your strengths, it's progress and should be seen as such. Okay. Even if the name is a neutral tribe name, or a non-caricatured logo, considering the history, doesn't that come across as a pretty hollow tribute? Yes. We know we slaughtered your ancestors and took your land, but doesn't this foam finger that we're making $5 on make you feel better?

posted by lilnemo at 06:31 PM on June 15

When an NFL team re-establishes in LA, they can be called the Los Angeles Fightin' Whiteys. They could make a goofey caricature of me personally and make my face into a foam mascot. SWEET! But if they were called the Proud Sioux instead of the Fighting Sioux, would everyone's panties not be in a bunch?

posted by Desert Dog at 06:32 PM on June 15

Thats up to the NCAA and the Sioux.

posted by lilnemo at 06:37 PM on June 15

I was always under the impression that to use a Native American- themed nickname for a sports team was to invoke/ honor the pride, honor, and warrior skills exhibited by Native Americans. Perhaps we should re-visit the use of these names. Do these tribes still exhibit these traits? Perhaps the modern tribes are right in wanting the removal of these names. It may not be an accurate portrayal of the people, indeed!

posted by IRUNNIKE87 at 06:40 PM on June 15

Second, I grew up in a southern Minnesota town, yes I'm a proud Golden Gopher alumni! In the 1860's the town had numerous villagers killed, raped, etc. by the neighboring Sioux. It was after the Sioux uprising that the Indians were put on reservations. I know, that sounds horrible. Of course, the alternative would have been to treat them like they always treated their enemies...kill every last one of them. In this world, time and time again, the societies that were not able to advance out of the stone age were defeated. I know its OT, but that is a pretty strange way of putting events like the mass hanging at Mankato, where 38 Sioux were hanged at once. Nothing like conducting nearly 400 trials in 6 weeks right? Many were guilty and many were not. Besides, if you read a book like Over the Earth I Come you get the sense that the Sioux and the white settlers were really the victims of incompetence by the U.S. government. With its attention on the civil war type situations going down, it purchased the land from the Sioux, moved the white folks in, and then did not pay for it (I'm just going from memory here) on time because of being focused on the events of the civil war. The Sioux get starved out and are told to eat the grass by the less friendly of the white traders, like Andrew Myrick. That is how atrocities happen on both sides, shit like that adding up to an explosive situation. Also, you would be mistaken to generalize regarding the Sioux Indians all participating in a war on farmers and settlers. Many saw no honor in that, staying out of it, and others actually saved the lives of white settlers. the Fighting Sioux mascot is a very complementary tribute to the Sioux, it is not something that people laugh at You mean like when the NDSU Bison fans were their Sioux suck shirts, or even the ones (which I haven't seen in awhile) that have a depiction of an Indian sucking a bison's cock? Who would be offended by something like that?

posted by chris2sy at 06:44 PM on June 15

What if the Brits named a team the Blitzkrieg? Do you really think that the Germans in general would be up in arms over it? Considering how touchy a subject WWII and the Holocaust are to present day Germans, yes. I think they would.

posted by lilnemo at 06:44 PM on June 15

I was always under the impression that to use a Native American- themed nickname for a sports team was to invoke/ honor the pride, honor, and warrior skills exhibited by Native Americans. Perhaps we should re-visit the use of these names. Do these tribes still exhibit these traits? Perhaps the modern tribes are right in wanting the removal of these names. It may not be an accurate portrayal of the people, indeed! On behalf of the Cherokee Western and Eastern Nations, fuck you IRUNNIKE87.

posted by irunfromclones at 06:56 PM on June 15

nemo, I agree that some of the representations could be in better taste and more accurate. I'd also like to see some of that cash go to the tribe in question (and maybe some scholarships for the kids, too), but the protesters aren't saying "Can you make your mascot more accurate?", or "Can we help you design a new logo that reflects our history better?". It could be, if you'll pardon the term, a team effort that would benefit everyone, but the activists refuse to see any possible good. It's bitterness, as I said before, and I guess it's understandable to a point, but seeing an opportunity to stick it to the white man rather than one to expand public knowledge of their history and to obtain a better future for the tribe (again, cash from memorablia sales, scholarships, etc.) is sad. As far as the Germans objecting to the use of a reference to the Blitz, I'd be really surprised, but the Holocaust is a whole different story because anti-Semitism is rearing its ugly head all across Europe again. That's a wound that is still raw.

posted by ctal1999 at 07:03 PM on June 15

btw, AMEN clones! nike87 took a cheap shot. Nice return!

posted by ctal1999 at 07:06 PM on June 15

1) If you want to put my face on your ass, then that's your problem , I won't sue, my wife won't even let me put it on her ass. 2) CHICO AND NEMO : get a life! This is the year 2006, we are not liv iving 100 years in the past or in the last century. Bringing up crap that is 100 years or even 50 years old holds no meaning unless your of that age. Not even in our court system, let it go.And as long as were on the lines of political correctness who gives a fuck what the Germans think. Not that I'M prejudiced because of my heritage mind you but, is this as simple as the world is going to get? Personally a British soccer team called the Blitzkrieg would be awsome. And I really don't think it would offend the Germans at all. They"ed probrably get a good laugh out of it! It's only in the US where we are still playing games, centuries old. The rest of the world has moved on, we have'nt. The brits, French , Italians don't give a rats ass what the Germans think or say, and that war is only over 50 years old. LET IT DIE and be at rest!

posted by volfire at 07:10 PM on June 15

Myabe they should be called the "Gambling Casino Moguls", although that would probably offend Steve Wynn and his buddies. By the way, Desert Dog, I am hispanic and live in SoCal. And I believe if you pulled me over, it was because I did something wrong or you have probable cause, so please don't despair. Thank you for putting your life on the line every day to defend us.

posted by joecab at 07:11 PM on June 15

Stick it to the white man rather than expand public knowledge of our history. There are literally thousands of books, articles, movies, web sites and museums about the truth of the Native Americans, but you persist in believing the myths and nonsense created by Hollywood. Sad if they're too bitter to recognize a compliment because it's offered by predominantly white men. No, we are angry because the white men still think they know better than we what is good for us, or what a compliment means. You would be surprised to know how many of the nations still consider themselves at war with the United States, since we signed only treaties, and never formally surrendered. There are hundreds of active court cases brought by the nations every year to fight even more treaty violations by the government.

posted by irunfromclones at 07:16 PM on June 15

Few nations care about the money. Even now, if these schools went to the councils or elders and spoke to them like they were men (and women) and not children, many of the nations might give their permission.

posted by irunfromclones at 07:21 PM on June 15

CHICO AND NEMO : get a life! Ever try attacking the issue and not the other person? Bringing up crap that is 100 years or even 50 years old holds no meaning unless your of that age. Guess this means we should put the bibles down and send the Pope home. Our work here is done. And I really don't think it would offend the Germans at all. They"ed probrably get a good laugh out of it! It's only in the US where we are still playing games, centuries old. The rest of the world has moved on, we have'nt. The brits, French , Italians don't give a rats ass what the Germans think or say, and that war is only over 50 years old. Never said they would be offended, I said its possible. Their are large portions of Germany that up until a few years ago refused to so much as speak about the Holocaust much less laugh about it. I understand what your point is. I don't mind when close friends joke about my/their nationalities/race/religion what have you. But I don't pretend to think its okay to make this value judgement for other people. Why you insist on doing so is beyond me.

posted by lilnemo at 07:25 PM on June 15

Bringing up crap that is 100 years or even 50 years old holds no meaning unless your of that age. Somewhere George Santayana is crying. Know what I like about these mascot threads? Not a damn thing.

posted by yerfatma at 07:25 PM on June 15

CLONES) if we left you alone what and where would you be? Would your arguments be stronger if NFL teams had no Indian head on their helmet? If you think America has forgoten your treaties and rights now, some 100 years later, what will become of you if you are not in our minds at all? Is that what you wish to erase all memory of you? Your books , articles and history will mean nothing if no one reads them. And for movies, no one is going to make a movies about someone or something that is not going to hold someones interest. It will be left to the Museums to keep your heritage alive, along with the cavemans.

posted by volfire at 07:29 PM on June 15

This is the year 2006, we are not liv iving 100 years in the past or in the last century. Bringing up crap that is 100 years or even 50 years old holds no meaning unless your of that age. Santayana is rolling in his grave... On preview: what yerfatma said.

posted by Venicemenace at 07:31 PM on June 15

I am not trying to put my VALUES on anyone or make that judgement for others. I had ,nor my ancestors, anything with the treaties and or actions, against the Indian Nations. Nor did I own ar have anything to do with slavery. Why am I now responsible? And if you write argumentitive commentary, are you not trying to pass on your values to others as well? Where and what is the difference?

posted by volfire at 07:41 PM on June 15

I think that there are other and better ways to be remembered than by insulting caricatures of your people used by sports teams. I tend to get rather heated on this subject, but only with the truly ignorant. Some of you have more than an inkling of the issue here, (di-gi-ne-li) and some of you are past any hope. I shed tears for some of these posts- for two very different reasons.

posted by irunfromclones at 07:48 PM on June 15

I am not trying to put my VALUES on anyone or make that judgement for others. I don't agree. You are devaluing the importance of history and suggesting that we should all forget about things that happened in the past and "get over it". And if we don't, we need to "get a life". I had ,nor my ancestors, anything with the treaties and or actions, against the Indian Nations. That's really, really, REALLY not the point. The point is, Native Americans had their entire society destroyed by European settlers, some of whose descendents now use their heritage as a team mascot, much like many other schools use ANIMALS. Then these schools are up in arms when people are offended. irunfromclones is pretty much 100% right in his comments on this thread. Nor did I own ar have anything to do with slavery. Why am I now responsible? What are you talking about?!?! And if you write argumentitive commentary, are you not trying to pass on your values to others as well? Where and what is the difference? I think in your case, "write" is pretty loosely applied.

posted by Venicemenace at 07:53 PM on June 15

"di-ge-ni-li" Is that a Jerry Remy reference??

posted by Venicemenace at 07:57 PM on June 15

Manifest Destiny. Sorry. The natives weren't able to hold off the european influx, and the whites weren't the only ones committing atrocities. This has been going on as long as civilizations have existed. If you are so thin skinned that a teams nickname upsets you, (even one that suggests you are warriors) then I suggest you bear arms with the battle cry of "Down with Andrew Jackson" and dress in buckskin regalia that has a cartoon likeness of Old Hickory on your headgear. ctal The Backward Savages: hilarious. By the way, I am 1/4 Omaha Indian, and proud of it. Still missMarlin Perkins' show, ha ha.

posted by mjkredliner at 08:07 PM on June 15

I gotta say, I put my 2 cents worth in this thread. While I may agree or disagree with the posts here, many of you make valid points which I never considered. Who woulda thunk it, SportsFilter is entertaining AND educational. Thanks, ya'll. Peace.

posted by Desert Dog at 08:14 PM on June 15

I posted this and then went off to my doctors for an appointment. I come back and man are things crazy! I'm sort of sorry I posted it in the first place!

posted by commander cody at 08:15 PM on June 15

Oh and to the couple of people who pointed it out, you are right. UND is not suing over the name, but rather over the NCAA's seemingly arbitrary enforcment of it.....my bad.

posted by commander cody at 08:20 PM on June 15

clones, I'm on your side (for the most part), and I have the feeling that if we sat down and had a cup of coffee, we'd get along pretty well. My point about the money is that I know that there are still a lot of reservations where life is very hard and opportunities are limited. So many people think that every member of every tribe is rolling in casino money, but of course, that's crap! There are a lot of communities that could benefit immensely from an in flow of cash, and they deserve it. I also realize that the nations are constantly fighting the U.S. government in court, and the money wouldn't hurt there either. I'm pretty sure you're right about what would happen if the schools would send representatives to the tribal councils, too. Where you're wrong, at least about me, is that I don't think I know better than you do. I just know things from my own point of view, and I don't understand yours, but I'd like to. Why is it an insult for white men to recognize the nobility and strength of your ancestors? I can only speak for myself, but I sincerely feel that way. I want to see the future of all the nations continue to improve. There have been some very ugly portions of our history, but I want to see things get better. It just seems like you can't accept that many of us have come to realize that all of your people deserve better than they've gotten and that they and their history and culture are worthy of respect. It's certain that not everyone agrees (just look at some of the other posts!), and some who do agree could express it much better and with more understanding, but I can't understand why anyone would think that when ND chose the name, that they could have done so if they thought that the Sioux were anything but a remarkable people...and if they thought that, where's the insult?

posted by ctal1999 at 08:25 PM on June 15

CC, it was a good post. Don't be sorry. This kind of issue comes up once or twice a year, and it's good to talk about it. Some folks are hopeless, but some will get their minds expanded.

posted by ctal1999 at 08:32 PM on June 15

I guess my problem is the inconsistency of the NCAA policy. Florida State gets a bye, not because their mascot is not offensive ever (because it surely is), but because the Seminole Tribe of Florida endorsed it, for whatever reason (likely financial). The Tribe for this particular group gets to decide for everyone else what is and is not offensive (contrast that with Jesse Jackson making money from an offensive team name thereby making the team name no longer offensive). It makes it confusing when there is not a universal stance to Native American nicknames. They are bad, unless the Tribe is making money off the deal. The NCAA jumped into this heated issue without being clear as to the facts, and then have had to backtrack on a case-by-case basis.

posted by bperk at 08:38 PM on June 15

Tell me the truth this time Is the Man in the Mask or the Indian An enemy or a friend of mine? Yerfatma will get the reference, with the title of the song being appropriate for the thread

posted by owlhouse at 09:04 PM on June 15

There's no saving us. And they said Oh Little Slanted Eyes can't you forgive and forget And he said, Oh Mr Friendly Ghost Can you catch water in a net?

posted by yerfatma at 09:11 PM on June 15

One of them's off her food and the other one's off his head And both of them are off down the boozer Where they drink a toast To the one he hates most And she says there are no winners only losers And if there are no losers Then what is this he thinks As he watches her complete a lap of honour...

posted by owlhouse at 09:31 PM on June 15

Momma said stupid is as stupid does.

posted by Desert Dog at 09:43 PM on June 15

How come I haven't heard anyone object to the name of this:

posted by MrFrisby at 10:01 PM on June 15

Why is it an insult for white men to recognize the nobility and strength of your ancestors? Let me get this straight: you're denying these people their right to react honestly to someone else using their name, history and likeness for commercial purposes? They're not allowed their own opinion? Seriously? That's kind of condescending and rude, don't you think?

posted by chicobangs at 10:15 PM on June 15

Chico...seriously, did you even read the rest of the post? I asked the question because I don't understand WHY some American Indians feel that way. It doesn't make sense to me and I would legitimately like to understand where they're coming from.

posted by ctal1999 at 10:27 PM on June 15

ctal, I should have pulled a half-dozen more quotes out of this thread, all of which pointed at my question. I was just being lazy, and I didn't mean to call you out personally. My point was that one of the reasons this conversation keeps coming up is that that's not always an answerable question. I don't feel comfortable with any side of this discussion, and it's because I hear too many people speaking on other people's behalf. That's not my only problem with this discussion, but I already feel like I'm trolling.

posted by chicobangs at 10:54 PM on June 15

As a American of Spanish heritage, I now want to be known as a Southwest European transplanted Hispanic-American. And I feel that the United States and it's Anglo-Saxon citizentry should pay restitution to my people for the lands they took away from us as well. I also want the NFL Cleveland team to change its' name. I think they are throwing my race a red herring when they say the team was named after its founder. No more Cleveland Browns. It is an insult to Hispanics. After all, you wouldn't call them the Cleveland Caucasians, would you?

posted by joecab at 11:20 PM on June 15

Most sports teams' names are meant to connote fierceness/toughness/nobility..Lions, Wildcats, Bears, etc...but I can understand why some members of indigenous nations find the names, logos, and mascots offensive. People attending games/pep rallies/whatever may not intend to be insulting. However--imagine if you were a member of an indigenous nation and you saw non-native peoples wearing headdresses and gear; and doing "Indian" chants and beating on drums--all of which have religious/spiritual significance. Wouldn't you find that a bit insulting? I do--and I'm a caucosoid (1/8 Cherokee--but not on the tribal roll.) It wouldn't bother me one iota if team names that some consider offensive were changed; I'm sure most people would still support their favorite college/pro sports teams regardless of the team names/logos/mascots changing or not. (I'm an SDSU fan and a Canucks fan--if those teams' names/logos/mascots were to be changed because enough people found them offensive, then I'd still follow and support SDSU sports and Vancouver hockey.)

posted by curtangle at 11:29 PM on June 15

Thanks for the clarification, chico. There have been some pretty putrid posts on this one, but I certainly didn't want anyone to see one of mine that way.

posted by ctal1999 at 11:54 PM on June 15

I am Blackfoot and to be perfectly honest I dont give a shit about any nickname. I have enough problems trying to raise two young boys who dont understand why they are treated so differently. I am a redskins fan for crying out loud ...who !@#$ cares it is all about these b.s. activists that is all it is they dont give a crap about native americans they just want to line their pockets and use us some more to their own benefit. Pound on me another 100 years asshole and see where it gets you probably a f...in cowboys fan

posted by skins fan at 12:16 AM on June 16

Ugh, me thinkum heap big pile of shit over nothing. "Indian" is a misnomer, anyway. Colombus thought he was in the West Indies, for cryin' out loud, so are they even referring to native Americans? Anyway, I sure haven't heard anyone from Bombay complaining about the Cleveland ballclub. And what could a tribe complain about being called Braves, or Warriors, or fighting whatevers? (I just hope the ladies squads at these schools aren't called the squaws, I'm sure we'd have heard about THAT by now). If it is a big deal, I say, keep the name, and change the mascot to some guy in a green leprechaun suit and call it good. Most Irishmen I know would consider it a compliment to be called those names. Political Correctness is what is getting out of hand, in my opinion. The local AA Texas League team is called the Rockhounds, and the mascot is the goofiest looking dog you've ever seen, yet I do not know of a single, solitary geologist that is offended by this. Ok, Ok, I am making light of this matter, but I really think, after visiting several reservations, that there are more pressing issues that we can take care of for these people, little things like education, health care, and job training. Maybe my priorities are wrong..... joecab, thanx for the laugh.

posted by mjkredliner at 12:20 AM on June 16

Laughed MAO skins fan!

posted by mjkredliner at 12:25 AM on June 16

The Star Tribune article included this paragraph: At the suggestion of a Dakota spiritual elder who visited the campus, UND changed plans to paint a Sioux logo on an athletic court floor, Kupchella said, and stopped calling its concession-stand hot dogs "Siouxper dogs." That's right, in the middle of this controversy over the use of the name for the team itself they thought it was a smart idea to market the hot dogs at the games as "Siouxper Dogs" and the bottled water as "HsiouxO". These guys are not fucking geniuses. Someone a little smarter could have reached out to the tribes sooner, gotten them on board, squashed this shit at that point, and avoided the shitstorm. Instead things end up where they are today.

posted by chris2sy at 12:42 AM on June 16

I WEAR WHITE SOX...THAT NICKNAME HAS GOT TO GO! PEOPLE ARE WAY TOO SENSATIVE!

posted by FtheRedSux at 02:34 AM on June 16

The stench of idiocy in this thread has finally gotten to the point that it makes my eyes water just being in here. If only it were as easy to identify dumbasses in the real world as it is in here, life would be pretty simple. He said, as a proud graduate of Choctawhatchee High School...the Big Green Indians. Sigh.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 06:26 AM on June 16

And that turns out to be my 1,000th post. All this time, I'd been saving it for someone special, and it ends up wasted on the rocks of this particular boondoggle. I feel so nonplussed.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 06:37 AM on June 16

mjkredliner: Ugh, me thinkum heap big pile of shit over nothing. ...and isn't it amazing how easy it is to come to that conclusion and dismiss the whole issue when it's not your ox that's being gored? TBH: The stench of idiocy in this thread has finally gotten to the point that it makes my eyes water just being in here. It would possibly be a whole lot less stupid if one, just one of the dumbasses could answer the question of how a tribe is "honored" by some drunk white fratboy putting on a bunch of costume-store feathers and paint and making an ass of himself in public. However, as much as they have to say about the issue, they're consistently silent on that point.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 08:07 AM on June 16

It all boils down to WINS, if ND was winiing in most of their teams were in the top 5 in the Nation no-one would have a problem. The Seminols are alway nationally ranked in Football FSU's biggest sport, so no-one has a problem, if they were always dead last or at the bottom, the name would change over night.

posted by vetteman at 08:10 AM on June 16

If they were the Fighting Jews this wouldn't even be up for discussion. I love how it's "ancient history" when members of a Native American group expect not to be caricatured and trivialized, but it's "tradition" to keep using names like the Redskins. The NCAA has the right to decide the rules under which teams may compete in its events. If UND doesn't want to follow those rules, the school should persuade other NCAA members to overturn the rule or find some other intercollegiate athletic group more to their liking. It's wrong for the state to clog the courts because they don't like the rule.

posted by rcade at 08:28 AM on June 16

This issue does nothing but make me sick. Some of you are so horribly and woefully misinformed its embarassing. Bottom line - if it's "not a big deal" that these team have these disgusting racist names then why is it a big deal that they change them? It's a fucking school team name - it is not honouring anyone. Least of all the people that are grossly misrepresented by your ignorant asses. Forget it. I change my mind. I'm with you guys now - all you strong, virile men who know how people really should feel about this. And if I ever get rich enough, I'm making a huge donation to your school provided they change the team name to the "Fighting Jesuses". Mostly because I think it honours Jesus, and I'm pretty sure he could kick a lot of ass (in a spiritual sense). I mean, sure I'm not a Christian, but that obviously has nothing to do with anything. I'm not a Jew so I, nor my ancestors, persecuted him, right? And hell, the mascot could be a bearded, robed dude hucking a cross - instead of the end of the cross being wood though, it could be a spear and have a little blood dripping off of it - because we would smite our enemies on the football field! We could sell fried fish in the stands! And fake beards (but only come playoff time)! And all those goofy sensitive Christians can go fuck themselves if they can't take a compliment.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 08:37 AM on June 16

Wow. My friday is complete, nothing says weekend like urine stained pants. I'd start watching college ball just cheer on the fight Jesuses.

posted by HATER 187 at 08:58 AM on June 16

Here's the Fighting Jesuses mascot Jesuses, Jesusses or Jesi?

posted by SummersEve at 09:12 AM on June 16

Thanks for the support Hater. I'll have your promo package in the mail soon. It will contain a big foam cross that says "we're number one", a copy of the team newsletter "The Gospel of Holy Touchdowns" (this month's issue has a great recipe for the "Cup of Salvation" - it's the official cocktail of the Fighting Jesuses - but, remember, we do not condone underage drinking of any sort) and a handy guide to our traditional battle hymns and group celebrations - including how to particpate in The Big Communion - which is the official fan touchdown celebration. You start pretending to pray and then rise to your feet as one, point towards heaven and throw bread in the direction of the opposition. Welcome aboard, and we remind our fans to conduct themselves with the utmost class - we're representing God himself here, people.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 09:17 AM on June 16

Ahh but lbb, it is my ox being gored. My grandad attended Haskell School for Indians, and his father attended Carlisle, and both suffered indignities far greater than those incurred by the naming of a team "Indian". My grandpa thinks much like our esteemed guest to this column, skins fan, in that many of the people who are making a big deal about this are disingenuis and/or have ulterior motives, and that there are other more important things to worry about, and I am inclined to agree. (Touchdown Jesus is old hat, too :)

posted by mjkredliner at 09:24 AM on June 16

WON'T ANYONE THINK OF THE OXEN?

posted by yerfatma at 09:55 AM on June 16

Fighting Sioux .... hmm, maybe the Sioux would like it better as the Hammering Honkies!

posted by GoHorns at 09:57 AM on June 16

My grandpa thinks much like our esteemed guest to this column, skins fan, in that many of the people who are making a big deal about this are disingenuis and/or have ulterior motives, and that there are other more important things to worry about, and I am inclined to agree. And your grandpa and our "esteemed guest" can both read minds, can they? Okay, out with it: in what way are the people who (in your opinion) are making a "big deal about this" in this thread disingenuous? What would their ulterior motives be? You are, of course, the sole arbiter of whether there are more important things for you to worry about...but while we're on the subject of other people's psyches, I always wonder at those who raise vehement objections to how others spend their time. If you know someone who likes to spend all weekend, every weekend, playing a sport that you're not interested in, do you shout in his/her ear about how that sport is "not important" and a waste of time?

posted by lil_brown_bat at 10:24 AM on June 16

And as long as were on the lines of political correctness... Blanketing things as PC or as racist by default are opposite sides of the same stupid, oversimplified so the world is black and white to me coin. If this issue is legit to a group of people, then IMO it deserves a look. Like others have clarified, that's what this lawsuit is about: that they didn't get a fair look via the established process. Thanks to lilnemo, owlhouse, irunfromclones and the rest of the enlightenment crew. Saved me from my bumbling, fuming keystrokes that couldn't have said it better anyway. Special thanks to Chris2sy for the local flavor and background.

posted by ninjavshippo at 11:03 AM on June 16

Mr Frisby is too funny...love the Jeep Cheerokee reference. Historical update, the hangings at Mankato were after the Indians slaughtered women and children. But, who cares, that war was two centuries ago. I have as a Vikings fan seen a logo that depicts my ancestors degraded numerous times, and never have I thought that the Packer/Bears/Lions/whatever fan doing the degration was insensitive to my Norwegian heritage. Nor do I take any offense at the Capital One credit card commericals that depict the savage Viking warriors as too dumb to get any real jobs. I'm off for the weekend, you politically correct types will have to bash someone else for a while. Now, what should we have for dinner?? I'm thinking buffalo burgers, or maybe Swedish meatballs. Can't stand those Swedes!

posted by dviking at 11:07 AM on June 16

Ok, I can see a massacre on the horizon and will now circle the wagons: lbb: I did not implicilty refer to anyone in this thread as making a big deal out of this or having having ulterior motives, but, your analogy is relevant, if somewhat vague. There is no shortage of literature about this subject on the web, this features much of the same logic and arguments as my opponents in this debate, and is otherwise quite educational. For those of you throwing terms such as idiot and dumbass around, and being made sick, you are not the fucking geniuses you think you are, and some of you have no dog in this fight. If you choose to be offended by the use of "Indian" stereotypes as mascots, then you have every right to. Me and mine choose not to be. (I made a special phone call to my grandpa, he assured me he will get over it.) Me smokum peace pipe now.

posted by mjkredliner at 11:15 AM on June 16

If it offends the majority of native americans I think some names should be changed. I'd like to see some statistical polls taken from native americans. I know some tribes have given their blessing to names such as the Seminoles. I just wonder if it is a true sentiment of the majority or if it is a few political activists that like the drama.

posted by scottyooooo at 11:20 AM on June 16

ctal1999- you and I could have a cup of coffee together anytime. I like to think that most folks aren't bigoted; they just don't have enough information or they have the wrong information. I'm not expecting everyone to major in Native American history, although at least one class should be mandatory for any college degree. Why is it an insult for white men to recognize the nobility and strength of your ancestors? It depends on the context. I have no problem if it is done with dignity and respect, and with the permission of the respective nation. What continues to puzzle me is why this is still an issue. The Cleveland Indians logo and the Washington Redskins are two great examples. Both are considered derogatory to many Native Americans, but not to most whites. We are ignored or as in this thread, further ostracized for being over-sensitive for not pleased at being honored in this fashion. How long ago would both have changed if it were the Cleveland Blacks with an Uncle Tom logo, or a name like the Washington N*ggers?

posted by irunfromclones at 11:22 AM on June 16

I never really understood how school mascots were chosen it all seems rather arbitrary to me. I grew up in New York but my pops is a Michagander who loathes pro sports but is a huge University of Michcigan fan. For years I was wondered what a hairy, Canadian, mutant had to do with football but then he told me they were named after an animal, not a comic book character. My dad just walked away from me shaking his head.

posted by HATER 187 at 11:25 AM on June 16

As an Irishman, those goddamned Notre Dame Fighting Irish offend me too. Grr. People really need to get a grip and stop being offended by stupid BS political corretness. It's not like Native Americans are the only heritage for which there are mascots in sports. Why don't we bring PETA into this too so they can stick up for those Huskies whos names are being wrongfully used in college sports.

posted by NightingalesGone at 11:47 AM on June 16

Becuase insulting an animal and a human collective are rather different, don't you think? Again, why is it ancient history when we discuss native relations, but tradition when we talk about a fucking sports team name. Have a clue. For those of you throwing terms such as idiot and dumbass around, and being made sick, you are not the fucking geniuses you think you are, and some of you have no dog in this fight. If you choose to be offended by the use of "Indian" stereotypes as mascots, then you have every right to. Me and mine choose not to be. So if you're not offended then why continue to fight against those that are offended? If it's not a big deal to you then it's okay to change the names. N'est pas? Good, glad we can finally agree.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 11:59 AM on June 16

STFU about Notre Dame. That or explain to me how it's the same. But, who cares, that war was two centuries ago. You'd be better be trolling. Or Guy Pearce's character from Memento. What's the statue of limitations on Very Bad Things in your system? A day? Two?

posted by yerfatma at 12:00 PM on June 16

Hey Weedy, Jesus may be a little too far, as they'd be representing themselves as, well..God. But let's see, could we name teams for heroic Christian figures...gosh, I don't know...tough one. How about the Saints? Oh, wait, I've seen the throngs of protesters on that one, too...or was that because the team sucked. Two more points. First, those of you who've proposed names like the Jigs or the Honkies are comparing apples and oranges. Those terms are specifically meant to be insulting. That can't be said of the Fighting Sioux (at least, not with a straight face). Second, those of you that imply that I can't have an opinion on this because I'm not a member of one of the nations are just being foolish. I'm not a woman either, but if I run across some idiot that named his softball team the Bitchy Cunts, I'm gonna tell him he's an ass hole. Or would that be wrong because I'm not female and I can't know how it feels? I've been ridiculed in the past. I know how it feels. I also know that you can find reasons to be offended by anything if you look hard enough. Are there down sides to these names? Sure. Whenever you involve millions of people, you're going to get some jerks in the mix. It just seems to me that it would make more sense for the tribes in question to approach the schools and say "It's nice that you think our forefathers are worthy of emulation, but can we help you design the logo and costume, and incorporate some other things that will more accurately reflect our history?" Some of the cartoonish stuff is pretty iffy, but why does it need to be all or nothing. Some who do have a dog in this fight, like mjk, seem to see things pretty much as I do. Those who don't may have very valid reasons to be offended. I just don't understand them and nobody has explained them yet. Objections to the cartoonish approaches don't explain the all or nothing attitude. Neither do the evils of the past, unless you insist on living in the past. The evils should not be forgotten, but would it be more helpful to simply say "No!", or would it be more helpful to work with the schools (and pro teams) to promote an accurate representation of the tribes and their heritage? I just don't see the sense of the first approach.

posted by ctal1999 at 12:14 PM on June 16

Or Guy Pearce's character from Memento [Discovering he's holding a half-empty bottle of whiskey.] Leonard: I don't... feel drunk.

posted by ninjavshippo at 12:26 PM on June 16

Two more points. First, those of you who've proposed names like the Jigs or the Honkies are comparing apples and oranges. Those terms are specifically meant to be insulting. That can't be said of the Fighting Sioux (at least, not with a straight face). ctal, if you insult someone unknowingly, would you want them to tell you so that you could stop? Or would you want them to -- let's see, what was it..."get a grip" and "stop being offended", and go right on insulting them? Second, those of you that imply that I can't have an opinion on this because I'm not a member of one of the nations are just being foolish. No one made any such implication. Are there down sides to these names? Sure. ...which is why some have suggested that naming teams after groups of humans is problematic and probably best avoided. In one of the many iterations of this debate, long before you joined SpoFi, I told the story of a high school that decided to name its sports teams the White Nights. One of the school's female athletes said, "What are we supposed to be, then -- the Damsels in Distress?" Human-group names become dated, with few exceptions. Case in point, UMass has the Minutemen...only, gosh, it seems the average Minuteman these days is actually a Minutewoman, which is a dumbass name. Why not just avoid the problem in the first place? The evils should not be forgotten, but would it be more helpful to simply say "No!", or would it be more helpful to work with the schools (and pro teams) to promote an accurate representation of the tribes and their heritage? An accurate representation, how, exactly? How many Seminoles are attending FSU?

posted by lil_brown_bat at 12:29 PM on June 16

STFU about Notre Dame. That or explain to me how it's the same. Im not dissing Notre Dame. I'm actually a fan. And Irish. I'm just making the point that there shouldn't be some huge uproar over some stupid mascot names because they are "politically incorrect" in the eyes of those people. They aren't the only ones who have mascots in some way relating to their heritage. No one else seems to have a problem when their heritage is inserted into sports, but when it comes to Native Americans it's automatically interpreted as derogitory is what I was saying.

posted by NightingalesGone at 12:44 PM on June 16

Yes, another point that gets lost in all this is that lbb. I mean, these schools are not exactly full of the people they propose to be honoring. It's more like a team called the "Fighting Crips", or the "Negro Warriors" entirely comprised of Asian players. None of this rings hollow to you pro-Indian name guys? Dudes, no one names a team "Indians" or "Sioux", gets the mascot and emblems wrong, calls everyone Chief and Kemosabe and teches people war whoops because they're honoring the past. They're doing it because they think it sounds good and looks good. I mean really. Ouvre les yeux.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 12:45 PM on June 16

Grr. People really need to get a grip and stop being offended by stupid BS political corretness. People need to stop being offended, lest they offend you? I didn't realize the world existed for your convenience and comfort.

posted by Venicemenace at 12:51 PM on June 16

LMAO ... This is even better than yesterdays Ozzie Guillen saga!

posted by GoHorns at 01:01 PM on June 16

LMAO ... This is even better than yesterdays Ozzie Guillen saga! And the great thing is, we get to do it all over again every three months or so with a new crop of noobs.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 01:06 PM on June 16

And the great thing is, we get to do it all over again every three months or so with a new crop of noobs. No Chit lil_brown_bat. LOL

posted by GoHorns at 01:08 PM on June 16

My Cherokee ancestors caught the rope at Plymouth Rock that was thrown by my Scottish/Irish ancestors. Does this mean I should condem them all. I personally don't care what you call your pro sports team, however my personal choice would be The Overpaid Pricks. Just to set the record straight, there are no "Native" anythings we ALL took the land from someone else. Probably started with homo sapiens killing off the Neandertal. Can't anyone just let it go? There is a pot full of really important stuff to get fired up about. Hook em Horns!

posted by Txndian at 01:15 PM on June 16

Im not dissing Notre Dame. I'm actually a fan. And Irish. I'm just making the point that there shouldn't be some huge uproar over some stupid mascot names because they are "politically incorrect" in the eyes of those people. Yeah, good work. That about covers it for me. Everybody else all set? Then this session of "Circular Logic: Why It's Awesome and Did I Mention Another Great Thing is Circular Logic" is over. Be with us next time for "Being With Us Next Time".

posted by yerfatma at 01:17 PM on June 16

Are you afraid if new people? Why not start a private chat line then?

posted by volfire at 01:18 PM on June 16

Do you pop out at parties? Are you un-poop-ular?

posted by lilnemo at 01:24 PM on June 16

Next on Geraldo, we cover the unexpected and bloody Mascot Massacre of `06.

posted by irunfromclones at 01:26 PM on June 16

I'm wondering out loud if it's ever a good thing when a FPP crosses the 100 comment mark. Survey says?

posted by ninjavshippo at 01:29 PM on June 16

Short answer: Yes with an and. Long answer: No with a but.

posted by lilnemo at 01:33 PM on June 16

As a beer drinker, the name brewers offends me.

posted by scottyooooo at 01:36 PM on June 16

"ctal1999 I would say you are totally qualified to make that statement if you are really a Sioux, other than that I can't imagine how you could determine what they may or may not find offensive." - HATER 187 "...and isn't it amazing how easy it is to come to that conclusion and dismiss the whole issue when it's not YOUR ox that's being gored?"- lbb These sound an awful lot like implications that if I'm not a member of one of the nations, that I should STFU, doncha think? btw, in case you didn't bother to read my other posts, I said that I thought the tribes in question are entitled to some of the proceeds from all the memorabilia, etc., and that the schools in question should be giving scholarships to the tribal members. This pumps much needed money into the reservations, many of which sorely need it, and it increases the Sioux or Seminole or Chippewa populations on campus as a matter of course. In addition, the mascots should be dressed authentically, the game programs should talk about the mascot and impart some info about the history and heritage. If your school team is the Fighting Sioux, wouldn't it be a good idea to have History 101: The History of the Sioux Nation? These schools all have traditions and heritage of their own, and American Indian lore could easily be woven right into the fabric of it. A lot can be learned by the general public and a lot of good can be done for the nations that way. I don't see any advantages to the other approach of saying, "FU! We're taking our name and going home!" If you read through my previous posts, I think you'll see that I believe that the nations all deserve much better than they've gotten and it seems that a middle ground like I suggest could go a long way toward correcting that. The only arguments I've seen against this approach seem based in nothing but lingering animosity. I understand where the animosity originated, but keeping a death grip on it now seems to actually be holding the nations back. Since none of us are likely to just throw our hands up and walk off the continent, working together would appear to be our best option.

posted by ctal1999 at 01:51 PM on June 16

These sound an awful lot like implications that if I'm not a member of one of the nations, that I should STFU, doncha think? No. I think it sounds like you're (still) speaking on other people's behalf. Which is the real meat of the problem here, more than actual mascot hijinks, rituals or quotas. Even if you're of native descent, you don't get to speak for other people of native descent who are directly involved in these issues. Same goes for if you're Irish, or Puerto Rican, or Female, or Ugly, or a Pipefitter. Are you one of the deciders who can officially and directly respond to these issues? No? Then your opinion doesn't really count, much as you may claim to know better than these people, or claim to have their best interests at heart. They have a right to not have their voice unwillingly co-opted by a University or any other group or person, including any of us. The NCAA's rules may not be perfect, but they're there for a reason. Stop assuming you know what other people think (or worse, "should" think), and please, stop speaking for anyone other than yourself. It's demeaning, insulting and rude. That goes for everyone in this thread. Everyone.

posted by chicobangs at 02:07 PM on June 16

If your school team is the Fighting Sioux, wouldn't it be a good idea to have History 101: The History of the Sioux Nation? Hey ctal- I can see where you are coming from, but I think that you are a little extreme. They should change the name, or at least respect the current one. But a "history lesson" seems a little extreme for a college sports team name. *btw- im approx. 5% Native American

posted by redsoxrgay at 02:07 PM on June 16

I can't see that. 5% is 1/20th, but the divisor would always have to be a power of two. Sorry, we've been away from stats too long.

posted by yerfatma at 02:11 PM on June 16

These sound an awful lot like implications that if I'm not a member of one of the nations, that I should STFU, doncha think? They don't sound like that to me. To me, they simply sound like an observation that it's a lot easier to say the arrow doesn't hurt if you're not the target. btw, in case you didn't bother to read my other posts, I said that I thought the tribes in question are entitled to some of the proceeds from all the memorabilia, etc., and that the schools in question should be giving scholarships to the tribal members. This pumps much needed money into the reservations, many of which sorely need it, and it increases the Sioux or Seminole or Chippewa populations on campus as a matter of course. In addition, the mascots should be dressed authentically, the game programs should talk about the mascot and impart some info about the history and heritage. I think we're in violent agreement that an attitude of respect should guide this. We disagree some about how that would play out, that's all (I don't see any school being willing to go through the changes that you've outlined, for example; I don't know of any that have done it voluntarily, and I'm not sure how much good it would do if they were coerced by the NCAA). I don't see any advantages to the other approach of saying, "FU! We're taking our name and going home!" If you read through my previous posts, I think you'll see that I believe that the nations all deserve much better than they've gotten and it seems that a middle ground like I suggest could go a long way toward correcting that. The only arguments I've seen against this approach seem based in nothing but lingering animosity. How about a lingering skepticism that these institutions will do the right thing of their own free will? Or even if forced? I understand where the animosity originated, but keeping a death grip on it now seems to actually be holding the nations back. Holding the nations back? It's a sports mascot. How is a "respectful portrayal" sports mascot going to significantly move the nations forward? How about lack of jobs, lack of infrastructure, cultural disruption, all that good stuff?

posted by lil_brown_bat at 02:11 PM on June 16

Most of which have NOTHING to do with a "Sports mascot". How does any culture move forward with their own community, if it has to fight for recognition? Will losing the sports mascot help or hurt the bigger picture?

posted by volfire at 02:29 PM on June 16

Inaccurate portrayals do no service to anyone. I don't see how anyone can insinuate that having an incorrect characature, without any native input from the tribe/culture being represented, helps breed tolerance, understanding and education to the subject matter. My new team: "The Bad-Ass Mofo Gangstas." We'll all have our pants worn low, our hats on sideways and will be primarily white guys from Delaware. I think it's accurate and honorable. The mascot will be a proud black gentleman in his traditional ghetto dress who will communicate in a series of clever rhymes. Hell, it will remind us of how bad slavery really was. Right?

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 02:37 PM on June 16

EXCELENT IDEA MY MAN! Don't forget to teach them how to shoot cause they are killing little kids across the country. Thug life Yo! WORD!

posted by volfire at 02:43 PM on June 16

Stop making my point. My eyes are hurting from all the rolling. On another note - this has been much better than doing any actual productive work today. Good thing considering I'm a bong-making hippie with disposable income and a fetish for throwing money at the ACLU. Am I right guys? Go freedom!

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 02:47 PM on June 16

Freedom is on the march, Weedy.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 02:59 PM on June 16

Anyone blamed Bush Yet?

posted by volfire at 03:01 PM on June 16

In fact, that's what we're calling the team: The Mystery Eskimos. Well, we're not Eskimos. Well, I don't think it refers so much to your ethnicity. And the Native Americans who do live here call themselves Inuit, chuckmeat. The deal here is we're selling this as a human interest story. The strange snowmen who play on a lake... the Mystery boys. We don't know who they are or what they are. All we know is they have poor dental health and can skate like the wind. It's a hockey game. Guys! It's just a name, you know? Nobody thinks the Dallas Cowboys are actually cowboys. If this ends up making fun of us... Scott, it won't. You think I'd let that happen? For business, who knows? You'd bite off your own jimmy if the price were right. As a mutt, I'm offended by everything. In fact, parts of me are starting to hate the other parts.

posted by MrFrisby at 03:14 PM on June 16

The mascot will be a proud black gentleman in his traditional ghetto dress who will communicate in a series of clever rhymes. Hell, it will remind us of how bad slavery really was. Right? Huggy Bear?

posted by commander cody at 03:19 PM on June 16

Only if he's available. Oh, look at that - he is.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 03:30 PM on June 16

Anyone blamed Bush Yet? How about Bush's grandfather? He helped disintern the bones of Geronimo and take them back to the Skull and Bones society at Yale.

posted by irunfromclones at 03:57 PM on June 16

You people would'nt know racism if it came up and bit you in the ass!That's the way people w/no reasonable arguement try to shut you up.By the way,there are no Blackfoot WE are Blackfeet both singularly&plural!!!

posted by mdavidsf at 04:22 PM on June 16

Anyone blamed Bush Yet? Bush made you an insensitive dingbat who can't spell? That dirty bastard! You should break out the crayons and write him a nasty letter. You really do seem to be the very definition of a troll. You wait for any thread that has the potential to be divisive in any way, and then jump in on the more ignorant, intolerant, insensitive side of the discussion, and seem to take great relish in seeing how many people you can offend with your neanderthal viewpoint(s). I hereby nominate you for bannination, as I've seen you contribute next to nothing worthwhile to this site over the past year that I've been here. You're like a three dollar bill: not worth the paper you're printed on. Kindly go piss up a rope. *btw- im approx. 5% Native American And approx. 95% ignorant.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 04:27 PM on June 16

You people would'nt know racism if it came up and bit you in the ass!That's the way people w/no reasonable arguement try to shut you up. Just so there's no confusion, biting people in the ass shuts them up?

posted by jerseygirl at 04:50 PM on June 16

I have always liked that "go piss up a rope", but my all time favorite is "take this hammer, this bucket of sand, and go pound the sand up your ass".

posted by irunfromclones at 05:01 PM on June 16

Just so there's no confusion, biting people in the ass shuts them up? Only if they're doing the biting. Even then its not so much silence, so much as muffled ass-speak.

posted by lilnemo at 05:10 PM on June 16

You people would'nt know racism if it came up and bit you in the ass!That's the way people w/no reasonable arguement try to shut you up.By the way,there are no Blackfoot WE are Blackfeet both singularly&plural!!! The why is the offical website of the Blackfoot Nation www.blackfoot.org?

posted by commander cody at 05:30 PM on June 16

Ooh burn.

posted by jerseygirl at 05:41 PM on June 16

Then why is the offical website of the Blackfoot Nation www.blackfoot.org OUTED!

posted by irunfromclones at 05:45 PM on June 16

I'll say it again jersey, you rock. Biting wit, so to speak.

posted by ctal1999 at 05:46 PM on June 16

LBB, I get your point about skepticism, and it's a good one. I thought I'd laid out several points about how the tribes and schools could work together to "get the message out" so the general public would better understand and to generate some additional cash to be used to address the problems of crumbling or nonexistent infrastructure, limited educational opportunities, etc., but if I can see where a lack of trust would make all of that moot.

posted by ctal1999 at 06:08 PM on June 16

ctal1999- but thats a good idea and a good start. I agree with you. Certainly an improvement.

posted by irunfromclones at 06:46 PM on June 16

What gets lost in all the hubaloo is that the NCAA hasn't asked UND to change its mascot or logo. It's just said it won't hold championships at places where stereotyping imagery is used. If UND doesn't like the rules, it can either cover that imagery or *ahem* take its balls and go home. Now, there are two ways this can end: 1.) UND proves the NCAA used incorrect language. Gets to keep the mascot. Does anyone think the NCAA won't try to get even later on down the line? 2.) UND loses. Not only back to square one, but also pissed off the NCAA. However the lawsuit turns out, I won't feel bad for the NCAA or UND. What sucks will be the fallout for the Native American students at UND. As always, they'll continue to face racial stereotyping and segregation because of the mascot issue. And whether they oppose, agree with, or don't care about the nickname/logo, they'll be caught in the middle.

posted by forrestv at 07:04 PM on June 16

Thanks clones. I was thinking of how I'd like to approach it if I were involved with an administration at one of these universities, but maybe I was too much in my head and not enough in reality. Oh well, we can hope things improve anyway.

posted by ctal1999 at 07:51 PM on June 16

Thanks clones. I was thinking of how I'd like to approach it if I were involved with an administration at one of these universities, but maybe I was too much in my head and not enough in reality. I'd say it's entirely possible, even probable, that the administration at some of these schools has tried to change the mascots. I'm guessing that they ran into very, very heated resistance from people who have a great emotional attachment to the existing mascots. That's something that I sort of get, but OTOH my high school doesn't even have its original name any more, much less its original sports mascot. They were the Blue Devils, now they're the Patriots, and somehow we alumni are managing to go on with our lives.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 09:06 PM on June 16

When I went to Eastern Michigan we were called the Hurons. Now it's the Eagles and I barely noticed. Of course it could be because the sports teams sucked then and still do.

posted by commander cody at 09:19 PM on June 16

tbh- I only said that to show that I wasnt making fun of ctal- I didnt mean to sound like an asshole- like I probably did. My bad.

posted by redsoxrgay at 09:32 PM on June 16

You don't want to come off as an asshole, but your screen name is "redsoxrgay"?

posted by Venicemenace at 11:08 PM on June 16

Looks like the Billy Bragg derail attempt didn't work, yerfatma. Nice try, though.

posted by owlhouse at 12:20 AM on June 17

I'll say it again jersey, you rock. Biting wit, so to speak. Not that I have anything against her but pointing out someone else's "burn" is not biting wit.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 06:34 AM on June 17

Sorry Ying Yang, but one of us misunderstood her post. The post she refers to isn't clear. It sounds like mdavidsf meant that people with no reasonable arguement try to shut you up by biting you in the ass (though I think he really meant the accusation of racism is used). She pointed out the confusion and I got a chuckle out of it, hence the "biting wit" comment.

posted by ctal1999 at 09:59 AM on June 17

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