Lots of Attention. Little Success.: Michelle Wie. Danica Patrick. Lots of ink. No wins.
posted by BlueCarp to general at 12:49 PM - 75 comments
Michelle Wie. 16 years old. Hawt LPGA Tour pro. Gregg Doyel CBS Sportsline.com columnist. Which one is more successful?
posted by sfts2 at 12:59 PM on August 10
Bullshit. How, can anyone who has a shred of perspective, claim that either of these two has had "little" success? I'm not usually one for subtlety but I can't help but have the impression that this writer is a grating, slow-witted moron.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 12:59 PM on August 10
This thread has bad news written all over it.
posted by jerseygirl at 01:01 PM on August 10
.... Sometimes, JG, when you write stuff like that, before the thread has gone crazy, it's like you're inviting it. You're egging people on.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 01:11 PM on August 10
Fantastic Post! I may not agree completely with him, but damned if he didn't put into words well what's been on lot of peoples minds. And ya have to admit that Wie does sort of have that well-handled robot look about her most of the time. Hell even I feel sorry for her.
posted by commander cody at 01:20 PM on August 10
Thanks, BlueCarp. I always enjoy when you drop by to grind your axe. Sure you don't really contribute to other threads, but you more than make up for it with your broad-bashing. It's like having our own Dave Sim.
posted by yerfatma at 01:20 PM on August 10
Yeah you're right. I guess we haven't seen it enough already (These are all just "Wie" in the last 3 months, once already by BlueCarp that was deleted.)
posted by jerseygirl at 01:23 PM on August 10
It's like having our own Dave Sim. But what we all want to know is if Steve Niles is calling him too.
posted by lilnemo at 01:25 PM on August 10
It's like having our own Dave Sim. No one south of the border is going to understand that one. I'd much rather talk comics than Wie or Patrick at this point.
posted by HATER 187 at 01:25 PM on August 10
No one south of the border is going to understand that one. Dude.
posted by lilnemo at 01:26 PM on August 10
Well - he's right. They haven't won anything yet and the comparison to Kournikova is pretty apt. I know little to nothing about IRL racing - so it seems to me that what Patrick has done is pretty impressive. To achieve the highest echelon and compete against the men (you know actually COMPETE) makes me feel like she's doing something right. However, the attention given her is out of proportion to her finishes. For now, she's still a novelty act and will continue to garner attention. But Wie, I have always felt and continue to feel that she does not belong on the men's tour. She is still yet to win a major Women's event and has somehow managed to play men's events without having to go through the rigor of Q-school. That's what makes her situation criticizeable (sp?) - that she is not required to qualify for the tour but plays on sponsor's exemptions.
posted by vito90 at 01:28 PM on August 10
Dude. Even I have been known to be wrong, from time to time.
posted by HATER 187 at 01:28 PM on August 10
Danica is a big girl (I say with a straight face...ok a grin) and she can take care of herself. But Wie has Judy Garland written all over her. Burnt out in her 20's, pill-popping drunk in her 30's and dead in her 40's. There's a difference between being managed and being handled. She's being handled like a commodity. Of course before she ends up in therapy she'll have made enough money to afford it, so I guess some can say that defines "success".
posted by commander cody at 01:35 PM on August 10
Inane speculation. I don't think any of us know Wie's opinion of how she is being "handled", it is easy for us on the outside to say it is wrong, but we may be completely wrong. She may be perfectly happy with what she is doing. Although it is obvious that she lacks the game to win on the men's tour, she is at least as capable as the washed-up journeymen that routinely take exemptions for the type of "small beans" tournaments she is invited too, and any golfer knows, the only way to get better is to compete against those better than you, so, I say, let her play.
posted by mjkredliner at 01:56 PM on August 10
damned if he didn't put into words well what's been on lot of peoples minds. A lot of people are morons. Dunno about you, but I'm not breaking into a sprint to sit in the "a lot of people" section.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 01:56 PM on August 10
But Wie has Judy Garland written all over her. Burnt out in her 20's, pill-popping drunk in her 30's and dead in her 40's. I can see it in her swing. Screams "future drug addict." Let's discuss the real point you bring up, since it will make this topic even more divisive: if Michelle Wie starts winning regularly, do you see her becoming a Gay Icon?
posted by yerfatma at 02:23 PM on August 10
She doesn't accessorize worth shit, yerfatma.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 02:25 PM on August 10
I guess Dan Marino was just a hack too, eh? After all, he never won a Super Bowl. What a loser he was! Lame thread.
posted by scully at 02:30 PM on August 10
if Michelle Wie starts winning regularly, do you see her becoming a Gay Icon? Only if she dies tragically at a tragically young age...alone and lonely. Then she's guaranteed to be. ;-)
posted by commander cody at 02:42 PM on August 10
Oh and it would help if she could sing......
posted by commander cody at 02:43 PM on August 10
A lot of people are morons l_b_b, but I guess I should have been more specific. What I was referring to was more of what he said about Wie not possibly being as cold-hearted as she seemed. That it must be coming from her handlers. I still say she'll burn out young. As for Danica, like I said she can take care of herself. Cos she's a big girl. An adult. Very grown up. Smooth skin....beautiful eyes....nice curves.....ahem! Anyway, you get my drift.
posted by commander cody at 02:50 PM on August 10
Hot women, excessive hype. Anyways, they do not deserve the money they make.
posted by Joe88 at 03:01 PM on August 10
posted by jerseygirl at 03:04 PM on August 10
What kind of comics?
posted by SummersEve at 03:09 PM on August 10
I don't think it is fair to dump on the amount of ink Wii is getting until it is released. That controller looks wicked.
posted by gspm at 03:25 PM on August 10
gspm, that comment was almost worth this trolling thread. Almost.
posted by chicobangs at 03:40 PM on August 10
A lot of people are morons l_b_b, but I guess I should have been more specific. You know, upon review I think I could have phrased that a whole lot better. What I meant to say l_b_b is that I was agreeing with you, not that I thought you were one...a moron...that is....just that....some are...but not you...damn..... sorry if it came out wrong.
posted by commander cody at 03:50 PM on August 10
Anyways, they do not deserve the money they make. I'm not sure I understand. The money they earn in their respective sports is based on how they finish each individual tournament/race. If they finish poorly, they don't make as much money. The money they earn in their respective advertising ventures is based on the number of people who recognize them (Q rating) and how much the advertisers feel they add to the brands they hock. In each case, they do "deserve" the money they make.
posted by grum@work at 04:00 PM on August 10
commander c: sorry if it came out wrong. It didn't -- I got you the first time. Joe88: Anyways, they do not deserve the money they make. Interesting you should say that.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 04:15 PM on August 10
commander cody: "She's (Wie) being handled like a commodity." Oh MY God!!! You're right! They said almost exactly the same things about the promotion of a teenaged (and even preteen) Tiger by his handlers (especially his dad), and we all know how terribly that went awry! grum@work: "In each case, they do 'deserve' the money they make." Damned straight! They earn their share of every purse, and if their initial endorsements don't pay off for the advertisers, they won't see any more offers. No performance, no moolah.
posted by ctal1999 at 04:20 PM on August 10
Sports is primarily entertainment. None of them "deserve" the money they make as much as say, a teacher or an emt, or an architect or a cook. But they "deserve" the money as much as any other entertainer like Cher, or David Copperfield or whatever. And if they get more money because they're hot or interesting, who gives a goddamn? What world do you live in? Let me clue you in: pro sports doesn't work like a card room where the hustler makes his money by taking the wagers of the other players and his take is directly correlated with how much he wins. It's more like American Idol. It's entertainment and people like a back story. People like to see when a national group, ethnic group, woman or man does something new because it's interesting. It's more interesting to them than the same sort of person pushing the limits of what other people have been doing. And guess what: no one except for other people with your same mental deficiencies thinks you're hot shit because you live in a post-identity-politics world where you don't see race, nationality, sex & you only care about the race time and the mechanics of their swing. No one wants you to come over and educate their daughter if she puts up a poster of a woman athlete instead of the man who's 5 seconds faster. Get over yourself.
posted by wood at 04:29 PM on August 10
catl1999. Hey I might be wrong and even hope I am. She might turn out as successful as Tiger, but I still say the odds are she'll end up a basket case. She has that vacant child star look about her and for every Tiger there's a Gary Coleman out there. We shall see.
posted by commander cody at 05:24 PM on August 10
New Spofi rule: all teachers are good teachers and no good teacher ever has a bad day. Thus, all teachers deserve all the money they make. It really speaks to one's interest in being part of a community when you drop a bomb of a post and don't come back to defend it.
posted by yerfatma at 05:29 PM on August 10
I'll be the first to admit that Gary Coleman's done better than I probably ever will.
posted by SummersEve at 05:48 PM on August 10
No offense to him or anyone, but I sure wouldn't trade lives with him.
posted by commander cody at 05:49 PM on August 10
Hot women, excessive hype. Anyways, they do not deserve the money they make There's an underlying issue here that's not being addressed in the link or in the thread. The issue is why this happens in the first place. That is, why is it that female athletes have to participate in men's sports to get either (a) some form of recognition or (b) sponsor-driven sideshow like media coverage? The question should therefore be why the mainstream media ignores the athletic performances of women in their own sports. How much coverage does women's sport by itself get on TV and in the press? If half the population is female, why aren't the media covering what should be a goldmine of sponsorship, endorsements and massive coverage of women's sporting events?
posted by owlhouse at 06:10 PM on August 10
If half the population is female, why aren't the media covering what should be a goldmine of sponsorship, endorsements and massive coverage of women's sporting events? Who says they aren't? Didn't the Women's World Cup (with infamous sports bra moment) have big ratings? Don't Nike/Reebok/Adidas sponsor female athletes in female-only leagues/tours/sports? The LPGA has a TV contract. The WNBA is on NBC in the summer. Female athletes get big coverage at the Olympics. Women's tennis is as popular (if not more so, in some cases) than men's tennis. It's there. It might not be as big as men's athletics, but given the fact that it started WELL after they guys, women's sports and the media coverage is coming along fine.
posted by grum@work at 06:22 PM on August 10
I didn't want to, but I'm gonna. Sorry everybody... For the gazillionth-and-oneth time: It's the PGA not the MPGA. It's IRL, not the MIRL. The women like Patrick and Wie don't "have to participate" in men's sports. They can. And get used to it, because I bet there are more where they came from. It's not a knock on women's sports at all, it's natural progression. And you know what? Danica Patrick probably had to be a good percentage better than the other male drivers her age to even be taken seriously because of small mindedness. She put in her time and deserves to be where she is. Just as much as most and more than Marco Andretti. So now someone go ahead and run out the tired ol' "why can't men play women's sports" line.
posted by SummersEve at 06:40 PM on August 10
It's there. It might not be as big as men's athletics, but given the fact that it started WELL after they guys, women's sports and the media coverage is coming along fine. Of course, it's not universally that women's competition started well after the guys in all sports. What's more true is that in some sports, in some parts of the world, the elite competition wasn't there, and the path that would have led to elite competition wasn't there...but in others, it was. Basketball in the USA was a case of a late start; alpine skiing (or a number of other sports where the road to elite competition didn't go through schools) was a different matter. Women's elite ski racing competition has been around for a long time, and yet today, even in Europe, women don't get as many of the prestige venues as men do.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 07:05 PM on August 10
It's there. It might not be as big as men's athletics, but given the fact that it started WELL after they guys, women's sports and the media coverage is coming along fine. Sorry grum, but I disagree. America has a few things going for it, as you mention (and I am also a huge supporter of the idea of Title IX). However I only wish we had the same down here. On Radio National (our NPR) this morning it was noted that Australia, one of the world's leading sports nations, has around 3,000 male professional athletes currently playing in team sports. And ZERO female professional athletes in team sports*. You would be hard pressed to find coverage of any female sports in our newspapers, and there is minimal TV, and then only by the public broadcasters. And it's not getting any better. * Not counting the Lauren Jacksons, Cheryl Salisburys etc who end up in the US leagues by default. On preview: what LBB said.
posted by owlhouse at 07:06 PM on August 10
owlhouse, that's really sad. I was under the impression that women's hoops had a lot of respect in Australia. God knows you produce enough great players.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 07:17 PM on August 10
posted by qbert72 at 07:40 PM on August 10
Yes, it is sad. Women's team sports have great participation (especially netball!), but this drops off through the teenage years, and there are no career paths for elite athletes. I love taking my daughter to our women's national basketball league (Lauren even turns up for the Canberra Capitals), but it's strictly amateur and has a very short season.
posted by owlhouse at 07:41 PM on August 10
That is too bad. Around here women athletes get pretty big ups. And from what I can tell, all well deserved.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 08:13 PM on August 10
The fact is that women participating in so-called men's sports brings publicity, not only to the so-called men's sport but to the women's version of that sport. How much publicity did IRL racing get (other than the Indy 500) before Danica came along? How much publicity did the LPGA get before Annika and Wie attempted to tee it up on the men's tour? Of course, I may be wrong. Maybe they got a lot of publicity; it's just that I never noticed until these women started making headlines and drawing my attention. I don't remember the last time I watched an IRL race (other than Indy) before Danica, but now I will check it out just to see how she is doing. And I don't think I watched an LPGA event since the 70s until Annika and Wie came along and piqued my interest, so that now I will stop at least briefly when changing channels to see not only how they are doing but also others who I would not have ever even heard of without the publicity that they have brought. If nothing else, these women share something in common with Billie Jean King, who brought all kinds of publicity to the female side of her sport by supposedly whipping an old man at the "men's game."
posted by graymatters at 08:13 PM on August 10
Well said, SummersEve. "A woman has to do twice as well as a man to be thought half as good." If you were to put Danica Patrick's talent in a man, you probably would have a multiple IRL champion by now.
posted by steelergirl at 08:13 PM on August 10
I think you would probably have a man in 10th place out of 15 in the standings...
posted by mjkredliner at 08:24 PM on August 10
If you were to put Danica Patrick's talent in a man, you probably would have a multiple IRL champion by now. It will be interesting to see what happens with her in the next couple of years, moving to Andretti. In my opinion, IRL and NASCAR are really team sports. It's just that the quarterback gets all the attention.
posted by graymatters at 08:24 PM on August 10
Let's face reality.When Michelle Wie plays in a men's event, there is a huge spike in the interest in that event. This ,of course, is pleasing to the event's sponsors, the media covering the tournament,and the pros who also play in that event (they all get a greater amount of exposure.) Personally, I root for her every time. I believe she has been great for the sport of golf, and I only hope that she has the support around her to avoid burnout,the crush of extraordinarily high expectations,and physical damage to that beautiful swing.By the way, could you imagine the ratings for a Skins Game with Tiger, Phil, and Michelle all playing? It sure would be fun to watch.
posted by judgedread at 08:44 PM on August 10
If you were to put Danica Patrick's talent in a man, you probably would have a multiple IRL champion by now. Just so he doesn't look like her.
posted by commander cody at 09:00 PM on August 10
greymatters: If nothing else, these women share something in common with Billie Jean King, who brought all kinds of publicity to the female side of her sport by supposedly whipping an old man at the "men's game." Heh, as I was reading your comments I thought of BJ King. The difference is that King also played another role as she organized and worked for change. The Bobby Riggs stunt was a lot of publicity, but all the interest it generated would likely have come to nothing if BJ King and the women whom she rallied hadn't also worked to change some fundamental things about the women's tour. They broke the money barrier, feeling that when the money became more equal, other things would as well. I think history has vindicated that view. Wie and Patrick are different in that they aren't playing the organizer role, but they are similar in that they draw attention and cause people -- some, at least -- to question their "of course" assumptions.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 09:08 PM on August 10
l-b-b, I don't know how you could have said it any better.
posted by ctal1999 at 09:28 PM on August 10
BlueCarp, that's some horseshit editorializing. The column you linked to expresses the opinion that Wie and Patrick are jerks. The author states his admiration for their sporting talents, or at least admits that Wie is a very good golfer who will someday be a superstar. We all have our hobby horses around here. But if you're looking for opportunities to repeat your mantra that Michelle Wie has "never won anything," why don't you save it for the comments? A front-page post shouldn't misrepresent the content of the link.
posted by Amateur at 10:26 PM on August 10
While still deplorable, this isn't that bad by Bluecarp's standards.
posted by willthrill72 at 10:43 PM on August 10
While still deplorable, this isn't that bad by Bluecarp's standards. The epitome of damning with faint praise.
posted by lilnemo at 01:36 AM on August 11
I know nothing about Wie or golf since I could care less about either. I do see that Danica Patrick was brought into the spotlight right as Sarah Fisher was leaving it. Ironically, or not, Sarah Fisher went on to NASCAR and obscurity. Danicas' problem is she thinks she's a top driver, she's not, she's just the next token female Indy Car is using to generate interest in a sport that is mostly ignored in the U.S. Her talent is not her ability to drive a race car. I see no problem with putting a hot chick in a racing car and parading her around to generate interest. Just don't present her as a lagitimate driver unless or until she has average or above average accomplishments.
posted by Familyman at 06:10 AM on August 11
Dont get mad at men for not paying women sports any attention. If I am not mistaken women make up slightly more than half of the population, the onus should be on them to support their sisters. We shouldnt be guilted into watching an effort inferior to what our brothers are capable of accomplishing. And dont compare Dan Marino to these broads, he has won plenty of games. Neither of them has won a race/tournament. That argument was pathetic.
posted by Drallig9399 at 08:06 AM on August 11
Interestingly, my wife echoed the author before i brought the subject up, and I agreed with her. For us, the mere fact that they have vaginas isn't compelling enough to evalute them outside of their role as athletes. Granted, the Wie comarison isn't very fair, because 10 years from now Wie will have multiple LPGA titles and *probably* more PGA success, whereas Patrick seems to have hit her ceiling as far as racing ability. If this article was going to be written about Wie it this is about the only time it'll ever fly, but the greater point about how we cover female athletes is still worth debating. I'd almost prefer our next "gender-breaking" female to be more like larry bird - amazingly unattractive with poor style to boot, yet be so damn good at their sport that nobody cares. So I suppose I do have a problem "putting a hot chick in a racing car" because I want my car races to be about racing cars, and nothing else - and I could care less if it's a hot chick or a hot dude, so long as they display skill at their sport of choice.
posted by chmurray at 08:27 AM on August 11
People still call women broads without a hint of irony, huh?
posted by jerseygirl at 08:30 AM on August 11
What kind of comics? I haven't read anything consitantly since Cerebus ended. I still buy Poison Elves trades as they come out but Drew Hayes works about as slow as Joe Madureira. Steampunk was a decenet read, great art work (Chris Bachalo came a long way from his days on X-Men) People still call women broads without a hint of irony, huh? I go with skirts or dames depending on the class (or lack thereof) of the chick in question.
posted by HATER 187 at 08:47 AM on August 11
Dont get mad at men for not paying women sports any attention. I'm not mad at you; I just think that you (the subset of men who don't pay women's sports any attention) are dumb as a box of hammers. Your loss. If it oinks like a pig, and it smells like a pig...
posted by lil_brown_bat at 09:16 AM on August 11
Dont get mad at men for not paying women sports any attention. Yeah, damn right. I'd rather watch nothing but men all day long! Lots of athletic men, doing athletic men things - like running and getting sweaty, and hitting each other, then rolling around on the groud, alternating positions of dominance.... Wait.... Aw, crap.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 10:07 AM on August 11
Don't forget the man on man ass slapping, Weedy.
posted by jerseygirl at 10:26 AM on August 11
I've always thought of the word broad as a great compliment. Kate Hepburn was a broad. So is Lauren Bacall. Hell my mom is one of the great broads of all time.
posted by commander cody at 01:11 PM on August 11
Don't forget the man on man ass slapping, Weedy. There's nothing homoerotic about that at all, lbb - geez. Now, fellas lets hit the showers.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 01:43 PM on August 11
Ya know Weedy, I think you've stumbled on to a great idea! It's just what spofi needs! A shower-room! We have a locker-room and a campfire, so why not a shower-room too?
posted by commander cody at 01:50 PM on August 11
There's nothing homoerotic about us hitting the showers after the game. Now, if you suggested we also wet our whistles...
posted by forrestv at 01:51 PM on August 11
I've always thought of the word broad as a great compliment Uh-huh. It's weird how that works, huh?
posted by yerfatma at 02:17 PM on August 11
There's nothing homoerotic about that at all, lbb You got the wrong broad, Weedy.
posted by qbert72 at 02:22 PM on August 11
That distant and sometimes icy look that Wie gets and that so many have described as a reflection of her handlers is strikingly similar to the distant and sometimes icy look that Tiger Woods gets when he's concentrating on a shot. It's interesting how the same expression is perceived differently based on the sex of its wearer. Wie's pretty great; hell, if she were a sixteen year-old boy, I'd be pretty impressed. But she's a young girl playing against men, upping her game to try to beat her competition. It's nasty and churlish to piss on and on about her not winning. Most grown men on the tour don't. Holding her to a higher standard than them is stupid.
posted by Hugh Janus at 02:52 PM on August 11
While I recognize the vast majority of people responding to this thread are sane, I especially want to applaud the big strong men who are wishing failure and early death on a teenage girl on the basis of the fact that hasn't been nearly succesful enough at the start of her career. Well done, sirs! You can go to bed tonight secure in the knowledge that you've defended modern sports from the incursion of this tiny, cantankerous upstart girl! Bully for you!
posted by Joey Michaels at 06:24 PM on August 11
they get the press cause they are "HOT" chicks. Nothing more and nothing less.
posted by azdano at 07:46 PM on August 11
they get the press cause they are "HOT" chicks. Nothing more and nothing less. Really? Cuz there are some "HOT" chicks in my home town who don't get any press whatsoever. Of course, they can't drive a high-powered vehicle or shoot a sub-par round of golf. But you told me the only reason Wie/Patrick get press is because they are "HOT".... I'm so confused.
posted by grum@work at 07:50 PM on August 11
Jeez grum. If you're just going to pick his statements apart that easily, you'll ruin all his fun. He may never post again (TRAGEDY!).
posted by ctal1999 at 10:28 PM on August 11
Really? Cuz there are some "HOT" chicks in my home town who don't get any press whatsoever. Really? I could be persuaded to come on by, give them a review and print up a few things in the press for them. Just in the interest of fairness you understand.
posted by commander cody at 02:03 AM on August 12
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