March 18, 2008

Union to examine why Bonds has no offers : The lack of offers to Barry Bonds will be examined by the baseball players' association as part of its annual review of the free-agent market. Less than two weeks before opening day, the 43-year-old home run king remains unsigned.

read story | posted by Tinman to Baseball at 4:21 PM CDT (60 comments total)

The question will be how much of a pay cut Bonds is willing to take in order to play. The fact is, he is a terrific hitter; steriods may have helped him hit a few more HRs, but his hand eye coordination and ability to lay off bad pitches, both vital attributes entirely unrelated to roids, were (and may still be) the best in the game.

posted by Chargdres at 4:39 PM CDT on March 18

Donald Fehr said his staff will examine possible collusion against Bonds and others.
Don't see Fehr point in this matter. No team is going to sign player with the baggage Bonds has accumulated with the steroids allegations and indictment for perjury. Going be hard case to prove on collusion in this manner.

Bonds has some good years ahead of him as a designated hitter and believe he would benefit some team. However for his agent it's going to be a hard sell.

posted by giveuptheghost at 4:48 PM CDT on March 18

Maybe Roger and Barry will be saved by this study.

posted by danjel at 5:02 PM CDT on March 18

Maybe Roger and Barry will be saved by this study.

My impression is that HGHs were taken to speed recovery time from injury, not necessarily for performance enhancement. Are there any studies on that?

posted by Howard_T at 5:11 PM CDT on March 18

St. Louis manager Tony La Russa had interest in Bonds but Cardinals management decided against opening talks.

Whew!

This story has been in and out of the newspapers here for a while now. If Tony was GM, chances are, Bonds would be hitting behind Pujols in the lineup. Fearsome twosome, for sure. But personally, I'm glad that the Cardinals organization decided to ix nay that idea.

Good Luck to Barry finding a home, just not in St. Louis.

posted by BoKnows at 5:49 PM CDT on March 18

No team is going to sign player with the baggage Bonds has accumulated with the steroids allegations and indictment for perjury.

But teams don't seem to have a problem with signing/keeping players that actually failed steroid tests, admitted use, or appeared in the legendary "Mitchell Report". 99% of those players (the batters) won't even come close to having half as good a season as Bonds would have if he were to play today.

It's fully within the powers of the MLB teams to not want to offer Bonds a contract, but it would be hypocritical for them to state that his steroid allegations are the reason why.

The perjury indictment? Players have been indicted/charged with crimes before and that has never stopped teams from signing/retaining them.

Given the previous history the league has had with collusion, I wouldn't put it past Selig and his cronies to verbally contact all of the teams in MLB to inform them about not signing Bonds.

If there isn't an email/paper trail, then I think it will be almost impossible to prove.

posted by grum@work at 6:59 PM CDT on March 18

Bonds has the best eye in baseball. A team would be crazy not to take him. Plus he puts the meat in the seats...home and on the road.

posted by Landis at 7:23 PM CDT on March 18

But teams don't seem to have a problem with signing/keeping players that actually failed steroid tests, admitted use, or appeared in the legendary "Mitchell Report". 99% of those players (the batters) won't even come close to having half as good a season as Bonds would have if he were to play today.

Good point, however believe the ball is rolling full tilt down the hill for Bonds. Also, many of the players on the Mitchell report have knowingly admitted taking roids and HGH. I personally hope he finds a home. Enjoy his hitting, but can do without the attitude witnessed over the course of years since he came up to the majors. This may be another reason why no offers are forthcoming.

posted by giveuptheghost at 7:24 PM CDT on March 18

Sorry, but for all you guys who refuse to believe roids raises your all-around stats, I will try to enlighten you. Andro and d-ball help you to train much harder and increase your strength, conditioning and fast-twitch responses abnormally. Just the increase in power raises your average by as much as 50 points due to the warning track fly balls that now go out, the "fisters" that you are now able to push over infielders heads and the way pitchers pitch around you once you've jacked a few. Now add HGH to the mix and you begin to regain the reflexes and energy of a 20 year old AND your 20/40 vision suddenly reverts to 20/20 (Some even suggest that Bonds vision during his homerun tear a few years back was actually 20/10 - enough to make out where the print on the ball is as it rotates - not read, but see). The Giants have let everyone know just how much better their clubhouse is since the "cancer" left. He is a shameful, jealous bum.

posted by eers_fan at 8:55 PM CDT on March 18

maybe it's becuase they don't want to have to pay a lot for him,being that he could be in trial half the season.

posted by rockstar2001 at 9:02 PM CDT on March 18

I can't believe that the league is colluding against him. It makes no sense, especially with some of the rivalries that exist between teams, that a competitive edge would be avoided and that teams like the Yankees and Red Sox would trust each other not to go after him.

That being said, I think someone should just offer him a league minimum contract and have that be the end of this discussion. The worst thing that would happen is he'd agree to it and you'd have to deal with the headaches.

posted by dfleming at 9:25 PM CDT on March 18

Bonds has the best eye in baseball. A team would be crazy not to take him. Plus he puts the meat in the seats...home and on the road.

This may be true Landis but so far, nobody here has stated they want him on their favorite team. Why is that? I am a Cubs fan; I don't want him to play for the Cubs. I am guessing his negatives outweigh his positives which is why no team has gone after him.

posted by danjel at 9:44 PM CDT on March 18

Maybe it's because he's an arrogant asshole who has outlived his usefulness now he's 'roided his way to the HR record?

posted by Drood at 10:20 PM CDT on March 18

This may be true Landis but so far, nobody here has stated they want him on their favorite team.

Fine, I'll step up.

I would LOVE to have Barry Bonds playing left field/dh for my favourite team (Toronto Blue Jays). Having him and Frank Thomas on the same team would be f*cking fantastic, and would provide an opportunity for both of them to possibly make it through the season through rest and rotation at DH.

The Giants have let everyone know just how much better their clubhouse is since the "cancer" left.

We'll see how great their clubhouse is when they win a grand total of 64 games this season. I'm sure it'll be all gumdrops and lollipops. Nothing makes a happy clubhouse like a 9 game losing streak... every month.

Some even suggest that Bonds vision during his homerun tear a few years back was actually 20/10 - enough to make out where the print on the ball is as it rotates - not read, but see

Those people are just idiots. The ball is coming in much too fast for anyone to "see" print on it. It's a blur, both in rotation (except by Wakefield) and horizontal plane. I'm sure these are the same people who thought Ted Williams would be able to watch the ball all the way until it hit his bat. This was scientifically proven to be an impossibility.

Maybe it's because he's an arrogant asshole who has outlived his usefulness

I don't think players have outlived their usefulness if they post the highest OPS in the league.

posted by grum@work at 10:25 PM CDT on March 18

Seems obvious that it is a combination of factors.
1) He may be tied up with legal proceedings for months.
2) He's an ass...fairly well documented
3) His fielding has diminished, so it's mainly a DH spot he'd fit in.
4) He's an ass
5) His ability/production is going to go down...older...off the drugs
6) He's an ass
7) His old salary was way too high...he and his agent are probably not open to the lower salary just yet.
8) He's an ass
9) He doesn't have the drawing power he used to...record has been established( or has it?), all the steroid news is wearing people down.

posted by dviking at 10:51 PM CDT on March 18

I guess I can't change the way anyone thinks out there, but I can give my feelings. As far as Bonds and all the other drug users in baseball go, I never liked the idea, especially since their inflated numbers keep some deserving players from the past out of the Hall of Fame. It really hit home, however, when Clemens name came up. I'm a lifelong Red Sox fan. When Roger first came on the scene when I was 17, I'd never seen anything like him before. He was a genuine phenom. He was every young New Englanders hero. When he left, I was crushed. Business is business though and I had to move on. It never even occured to me that Roger was on the juice. How could the greatest pitcher in Red Sox history, possibly baseball history, be a cheater. I can't look at him the same way anymore. I'm still heartbroken, just like a lot of Bond's fans I'm sure. There's more to this game to me than just stats, It's a piece of my heart and my soul. I've played, watched and breathed baseball all my life. Maybe a lot of you out there don't mind that our great american pastime is cheapened by the likes of Bonds or Clemens or any of the other fools out there looking for a giant payday, but I do. Collusion? I hope so!

posted by caffdman at 11:11 PM CDT on March 18

The guy could probably be a big assest to any team at the plate, if his health cooperates. That goes without saying. The majority of decision makers around the league probably can't stand the guy, period, whether they've met him or not. Barry has to be bright enough to realize this persona he has worked on for years may have finally caught up to him. There will be problems in any clubhouse, with or without Bonds, but I doubt any team can really ignore the impact his attitude, sense of entitlement, etc., would have on young players. I wish I could remember the story I read regarding this, but it told of how the clubhouse was controlled by Bonds' presence, and not in a good way. Everyone else pretty much walked around on pins-and-needles, worried about Barry and how he'd react to anything they'd say or do. Who really wants to willingly bring that to their team? But in the end, Barry brought this on himself.

posted by dyams at 7:13 AM CDT on March 19

Well, I personally would love to see Barry in New York playing for my Mets. With Moises Alou out for about 2 months, Los Mets could use a bat like Bonds'.

He is a shameful, jealous bum.

Bum you say? Then maybe it would've be a sight to see if Barry wasn't such a bum for his entire career. Maybe he could've been the home run king....oh, wait a minute! Isn't Bonds the only member of the 400-400 AND 500-500 (homers & steals) club? Hold up, isn't he also just 65 hits of 3,000? Geez!! You're right, he is bum!!

posted by BornIcon at 8:16 AM CDT on March 19

If there's a team avoiding him for any reason other than the potential headaches and distraction of having him in the dugout for 162 games, I'd like to know about it. Maybe some NL teams don't have a place for him, but most every AL team could hide him at DH or LF.

posted by yerfatma at 8:40 AM CDT on March 19

Steroid allegations aside, what's the union going to do--make a team sign Barry?

posted by jm_mosier at 8:49 AM CDT on March 19

Steroid allegations aside, what's the union going to do--make a team sign Barry?

If they could somehow prove collusion, Barry could sue the MLB and the union would get involved. It's not a contract but it would be bad for the owners.

posted by dfleming at 8:53 AM CDT on March 19

I'd be lying if I said I had never imagined Bonds in the DH spot for the Yankees, swinging at the Stadiums right-field bleachers.

posted by dyams at 9:30 AM CDT on March 19

I don't really have any comment toward Bond's himself other than he is a jerk to live with on a team... Very demanding, but then again, there are other premadonna's that did the same thing...

I do have to say that some of the comments posted crack me up though... Some good reading...

posted by bruce2ww at 9:36 AM CDT on March 19

Yes I agree, his pumpkinhead has swelled to gigantic proportions, but he would put fans in the seats of any stadium he walked into. I feel his defense has diminished over the years, I also feel he would be a favorable DH for most American League clubs.....yet, it doesn't hide his past in any event.

posted by 4ArmShiver at 10:12 AM CDT on March 19

I sincerely doubt that a desperate team will avoid him later on in the season. At this point, there are a lot of people with a lot of hope. A losing streak will likely get Bonds a job if he wants one.

posted by dfleming at 10:55 AM CDT on March 19

Yes I agree, his pumpkinhead has swelled to gigantic proportions, but he would put fans in the seats of any stadium he walked into.

We talking about Roger Clemens now?

posted by BornIcon at 11:15 AM CDT on March 19

I would LOVE to have Barry Bonds playing left field/dh for my favourite team

Seconded. Put him in between Braun and Fielder in the lineup. Scary. What would be scarier though would be the defense the Brewers would then get to trot out there.

posted by tron7 at 11:15 AM CDT on March 19

If they could somehow prove collusion, Barry could sue the MLB and the union would get involved.

Realistically, isn't this something of a long-shot? Just how do you prove that?

I also think that Barry's problems stem from the fact that he very well could be looking at a lengthy legal proceeding. I don't think it is outside the realm of possibility that it could make GM's and owners quite hesitant to invest millions of dollars on a player whose skills may be diminishing drastically, and may not even be able to participate in the season depending on the outcome of his court case. I don't think comparing this instance to other ballplayers can be done. This situation is somewhat unprecedented. I don't remember Congress getting involved in other ballplayer indictments, but grum would be much more informed than myself. In a nutshell, I think Bonds has made himself persona non grata.

posted by THX-1138 at 11:29 AM CDT on March 19

I'm from the bay Area, and I have seen and read the unfolding Bonds saga for many years. I think its a combination of things:

his arrogance with the media and in the clubhouse

the stigma of steroids and HGH

he decides the number of games that he would be willing to play in

the uncertainty of his availability due to federal criminal charges

Its been very well documented over the years that Bonds is a prima donna in the clubhouse- his perks irritate his teammates at best, and pisses them off royally at worst. More than one player moved on from the franchise rather than have to deal with the mega ego. I don't really care about his arrogance with the media, but it has certainly helped fuel the firestorm around him. He has no good will with the press. Most managers in their right minds would not weigh his batting average against the chemistry in the clubhouse, and Bonds holding the manager and GM hostage, and still want him on the team.

He did use them, he did fail at least one test, and he lied about it. He's an asterisk no matter how well he plays.

Bonds sets his own schedule and days off. refer to holding club management hostage above.

At some point, Barry is going to have to show up in court to defend himself. Until that day, there will also be numerous motions and hearings, some of which he will have to attend. The hearings, motions, or actual trial will be a huge distration for bonds and whatever team signs him. And you can bet it will happen when they need him most.

If you still think he's a great hitter and can still put butts in the seats, then why do 30 managers and owners think otherwise?

posted by irunfromclones at 12:53 PM CDT on March 19

He's very good in the field and poison in the locker room.The cohetion of the players is as important as good playing.In that field Bonds is a disrupting influence that can create discord and disrupt the understanding between players.What happens in the locker room translates to the playing in the field.I understand why no team would want that even if the culprit is a very good player.Besides, he's legal problems may handycap him during the season & with the salary he expect to draw is a risk few teams would want to take.As I said poison all around.

posted by ogomezmontes at 1:09 PM CDT on March 19

OK, get this. Anabolic steroids did not make Barry Bonds the Home Run King. Talent did. Steroids won't give you a perfect home run stroke, have nothing to do with hand eye coordination, and don't give hitters Superman abilities to lay off bad pitches. I am getting quite irritated that everyone thinks anabolic steroids do nothing but harm people.

posted by breedlover1 at 2:55 PM CDT on March 19

I am getting quite irritated that everyone thinks anabolic steroids do nothing but harm people.

Don't recall that being part of the conversation. Using steroids might not help you hit home runs, but they will help you get a court date.

Steroids--It does a body good.

posted by THX-1138 at 3:54 PM CDT on March 19

The theory behind steroids increasing your HR total is that they make you stronger so that those balls you hit will go further, turning balls that would bounce off the wall/hit the warning track into home runs.

posted by apoch at 3:58 PM CDT on March 19

How much is a 20 HR, 80 RBI, .275 DH worth now days in baseball? That is probably where he would be this year. That should be his offer. If that's what a team needs, I say go for it. However, as a DH, he would bat, go to the clubhouse read the paper, watch cartoons (ricochett rabbit perhaps), snack on gogurt or puddin pops, play some poker or hearts with the guy locked in the equipment room, and wait until it's his turn to bat. And then do it all over again. I can't see him becoming a part of any ones TEAM.

posted by scuubie at 4:32 PM CDT on March 19

I hadn't thought about Ricochet Rabbit for 35 years. Now I can't get it out of my head.

posted by owlhouse at 6:18 PM CDT on March 19

The theory behind steroids increasing your HR total is that they make you stronger

Also, they (and HGH) help the body recover from the little dings that occur in everyday life. There's more than a few Griffey, Jr. fans out there (I am one of them) who firmly believe that he'd be right there with Bonds had his body not gone south on him in his 30's. I know Bonds has had some injury problems recently, but he's been remarkably resistant to injury for a guy his age.

If he was on the juice then and now is no longer, how many games are you going to get out of him for your money? I don't see too many GM's willing to take the gamble that their multimillion dollar investment won't play 10, get hurt, and retire due to the injury. Just one possibility.

posted by tahoemoj at 6:34 PM CDT on March 19

From a study just released:

It revealed that HGH did not help athletic performance in any way. The lead author of the study, Dr. Hau Liu of Santa Clara Valley Medical Center in San Jose, California, even stated it may worsen athletic performance.

What they found was that HGH does add muscle, but in terms of aiding actual performance in athletic exercises, it did nothing. The added muscle was merely found to be cosmetic, as it did not help with strength increases either.

It also was found to lead to side effects including swelling and extreme fatigue.

posted by justgary at 7:37 PM CDT on March 19

I am getting quite irritated that everyone thinks anabolic steroids do nothing but harm people.

I love the argument that steriods have no benefit whatsoever for a player like Bonds. If there was no benefit, why did Bonds/McGwire/etc take them?

They took them because the drugs made them stronger, and helped them recover from injuries faster. So, whether it is an extra few feet on a fly ball, or an extra 40 at bats, either way, the steroids do have an effect on a player's output.

If your argument was that Bonds is a great hitter, I don't think anyone is really debating that point.

posted by dviking at 7:51 PM CDT on March 19

I love the argument that steriods have no benefit whatsoever for a player like Bonds. If there was no benefit, why did Bonds/McGwire/etc take them?

People take all kinds of drugs that do them no good. Notice all the drugs advertised on tv as "studies show drug X 'may' help".

Roger Clemens and others have taken massive amounts of B12 and doctor after doctor has claimed it does nothing for a healthy person.

I'm not saying they don't every help. I have a feeling in some cases they do. But the fact that people take them is no proof whatsoever that they actually work.

posted by justgary at 8:10 PM CDT on March 19

What they found was that HGH does add muscle, but in terms of aiding actual performance in athletic exercises, it did nothing

I saw a number of objections to this study, but the immediate one was the fact no one was really arguing HGH was great for building more muscle; it was for recovering from injury.

posted by yerfatma at 8:24 PM CDT on March 19

it was for recovering from injury.

True, but I would think the swelling and extreme fatigue also mentioned would come into play when recovering from injury.

I'm not throwing my weight behind this study and I'm sure it's one of many to come. But even flawed it goes beyond just assuming HGH is a magic pill.

posted by justgary at 8:32 PM CDT on March 19

why did Bonds/McGwire/etc take them?

McGwire takes roids? Source Please.

posted by giveuptheghost at 8:56 PM CDT on March 19

McGwire takes roids? Source Please.

Sure. He gave a waffling-type answer and speech when confronted by Congress a few years ago.

Therefore, he's a user.

It's pretty obvious, really.

posted by grum@work at 10:22 PM CDT on March 19

Sure. He gave a waffling-type answer and speech when confronted by Congress a few years ago.

Therefore, he's a user.

It's pretty obvious, really.

He waffled the wafflers.

posted by danjel at 11:39 PM CDT on March 19

Sure. He gave a waffling-type answer and speech when confronted by Congress a few years ago.

Therefore, he's a user.

It's pretty obvious, really.

Okay, so the fact that he waffled in front of Congress doesn't mean much, everyone in Washington waffles, he was obviously just playing along.

Then Jose Canseco names lists him as a user...what does he know? Of course, he has been right most of the time.
Or, perhaps it's that he admits to have used androstenedione. Which was legal at the time he supposedly used it. I never said he broke laws, just that he used steroids. His admitting it kind of makes it easy for me to believe it.

posted by dviking at 12:32 AM CDT on March 20

I don't want to hear Dodgers broadcaster Vin Scully announcing the reason Bonds isn't playing today.

posted by Newbie Walker at 1:27 AM CDT on March 20

I'm sure that study's going to be referenced everywhere, but:

The scientists note their analysis included few studies that measured performance. The tests also probably don't reflect the dose and frequency practiced by athletes illegally using the hormone. Experiments like that aren't likely to be conducted . . . There was no difference found in strength or exercise stamina between the two groups, but there were only two strength studies and eight that measured exercise . . . The review couldn't consider long-term effects, since the longest study was three months, and most were much shorter.

posted by yerfatma at 4:55 AM CDT on March 20

Mmmmmmmm, waffles!

posted by tommytrump at 8:42 AM CDT on March 20

Lego my Eggo!

posted by danjel at 9:47 AM CDT on March 20

The review couldn't consider long-term effects

True, but if someone like pettitte is telling the truth, that he used HGH a couple of random times, the lack of long term use doesn't really come into play.

posted by justgary at 11:30 AM CDT on March 20

This probably won't improve his chances for getting hired either.

posted by irunfromclones at 1:17 PM CDT on March 20

There is a leading study that I recently read that said when waffles or other breakfast pastries, toasted or otherwise were combined with juice and/or milk, could be part of a healthy, complete breakfast.

It gave no indication to the effect it had on batting average or improved hand-eye coordination.

posted by THX-1138 at 2:48 PM CDT on March 20

Of course, he has been right most of the time.

Of course he has.

This probably won't improve his chances for getting hired either.

Interesting that an article that highlights a previous Bonds indictment being thrown out is used as evidence that his chances are worsened. The best that I can see is that the prosecutors get to the same point they were before (indictments against Bonds). Anything less (less charges) would mean he's in BETTER shape in the future.

posted by grum@work at 6:30 PM CDT on March 20

grum, are we talking about A-rod now?
I'll stick by my comment of Of course, he has been right most of the time.
(by definition "most of the time" means that he hasn't been right 100% of the time, just a majority of the time)

In reading the link that irunfromclones posted, I get the feeling that Bonds will be worse off. His lawyers got one indictment thrown out because it charged him with two or more offenses. So, now the government is going to come back with several indictments...don't see how that makes it better for Barry. Given that there will now be several indictments, the odds are better that they will get him on one of them.

posted by dviking at 7:16 PM CDT on March 20

Hold up, isn't he also just 65 hits of 3,000?

Which reminds me. If you took away every one of Hank Aaron's home runs, he still would have over 3000 hits. I'd prefer to remember him as the Home Run King.

posted by drumdance at 7:43 PM CDT on March 20

So, now the government is going to come back with several indictments...don't see how that makes it better for Barry. Given that there will now be several indictments, the odds are better that they will get him on one of them.

If it's so easy, why'd they screw up?
Or take 3 years to get them in the first place?

I've read some legal examinations of his testimony in front of the grand jury, and almost everyone says it's going to be VERY hard to get anything to stick.

Which reminds me. If you took away every one of Hank Aaron's home runs, he still would have over 3000 hits. I'd prefer to remember him as the Home Run King.

That's cool. I could still think of Ty Cobb as the hit king, but I'd be wrong.

posted by grum@work at 10:03 PM CDT on March 20

Now, if you want to discuss the incompetence of the government's lawyers, that's another subject. I have no idea how they could not know how to properly prepare the paperwork.

We'll see how it all turns out. I think they'll get something to stick, and it seems that the owners feel that way too. He's good enough to make it as a DH somewhere, but no one is taking a chance on him.

Could be that he's such a distraction, however, I think the legal issues are a bigger roadblock right now.

posted by dviking at 10:35 PM CDT on March 20

I could still think of Ty Cobb as the hit king, but I'd be wrong.

But there's nobody in the hall of fame with more hits than Cobb. I was lead by the hall to believe that an invisible spectre surpassed Cobb's 4,191, but that by systematically burying their heads in the sand, he just went away.

posted by tahoemoj at 1:03 PM CDT on March 21

But there's nobody in the hall of fame with more hits than Cobb. I was lead by the hall to believe that an invisible spectre surpassed Cobb's 4,191, but that by systematically burying their heads in the sand, he just went away.

Not true. Pete Rose appears (has appeared) in a couple of displays at the Baseball Hall of Fame. One display is for breaking the all-time hits record, and another was for the "Big Red Machine".

Rose hasn't been erased from baseball history, like some out-of-favour-and-now-dead Soviet politburo crony. He's just not allowed to be voted into the members area.

And believe me, I wish Rose just "went away", but he keeps popping up to change his story and plead his case about how THIS time, he's not lying to everyone.

posted by grum@work at 9:49 AM CDT on March 22

I'm with you on that one, grum. While in Nevada now, I claim Cincinnati as my home town and will always be a Reds fan. Pete, while a hell of a player and rep of the game in his youth, has become quite an embarrasment. He might have been able to hit and field well, but when it comes to truth and dignity, he comes up a bit short. I wasn't trying to troll for a pissing contest (although on reread, it really could be taken that way), I was just having a little fun with your original comment (which, by the way, was a great response.)

posted by tahoemoj at 2:53 PM CDT on March 22

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