Tigers Win 3-1 in World Series Game 2:
posted by Joey Michaels to baseball at 10:41 PM - 134 comments
The series is now tied. However, did Kenny Rogers cheat and get away with one? What WAS that on his hand anyway? Clump of dirt? Pine tar? Hmmmm.......
posted by NerfballPro at 10:47 PM on October 22
Jones needs to do a much better job of taking into consideration the age and heart conditions of the older Tiger fans (like me) before he screws around like that in the 9th inning! Beyond that I picked Rogers as the MVP for this series and it looks like he may prove me right after all. I haven't seen intensity like that from a Tiger since Mark The Bird.
posted by commander cody at 10:49 PM on October 22
Rogers said on ESPN News that it was dirt and he cleaned it off without anyone having to tell him about it.
posted by commander cody at 10:51 PM on October 22
Wait, shouldn't the thread title be Sign the petition to canonize Kenny Rogers?
posted by DrJohnEvans at 11:03 PM on October 22
I'll sign. He's earning it this year. His past has been checkered with problems in the post season and the word on him was always that he couldn't win "the big one", yet won 3 big ones in the past few weeks. he knows this may be the last chance he ever gets and I admire his resolve to do it and do it right. Of course the fact that I'm a Tiger fan has nothing to do with it. :-)
posted by commander cody at 11:06 PM on October 22
*gulp* I am a Tigers' fan. And an umpire. That being said, ot doesn't WHAT KR had on his hand, if the umpires saw it, he sjould have been ejected. The rules prohibit any foreign substance on a pitcher's hand other than rosin from a bav provided for the purpose of drying the hand). But, if the Card's hitters or LaRussa didn't say anything till afgter the first, and it was gone by the second what could they do? Go Tigers, it looks to be shaping up as a great series.
posted by elovrich at 11:27 PM on October 22
If the tigers can win the ws with jones as their closer they'll definitely earn it.
posted by justgary at 11:27 PM on October 22
If it's indeed dirt that was on his hand like Rogers said it was, that wouldn't warrant an ejection. Dirt is considered to be the playing surface, not a foreign substance. If anyone who slid hard into second base got their uniforms dirty, they'd have to be ejected as well.
posted by NerfballPro at 11:35 PM on October 22
The Cards were whinning about the substance on Kenny Rogers hand. O.K. he wiped it off. I bet the Cards wished he left it on, because he SMOKED them for the next 8 innings.
posted by Jedi Master at 11:35 PM on October 22
I haven't seen intensity like that from a Tiger since Mark The Bird. Well, maybe that Jack Morris fellow.
posted by tommytrump at 11:44 PM on October 22
The Tigers needed that intensity. I spoke to a friend who's rooting for the Cards the other night when they won Game 1, and he said if the Cards had won Game 2, the series doesn't leave St. Louis. At any rate, this is turning into a better Series than anyone thought before Saturday night.
posted by NerfballPro at 11:51 PM on October 22
Jack was great, no doubt about that, but I still think Kenny Rogers is more like the Bird because of the pumping of the fists, talking to the other players and most importantly talking to himself and the ball. That doesn't mean I think any less of Morris, he was one of the greats of Tiger history, just that I think his intensity was more of the quiet type.
posted by commander cody at 11:52 PM on October 22
First series in two years to not be a sweep. For that much, I am satisfied.
posted by igottheblues at 12:49 AM on October 23
I agree with nerfballpro. This has the makings of a classic series. It's not there yet of course, but it's looking good so far.
posted by commander cody at 01:04 AM on October 23
The "substance" on Rogers hand was not exactly dirt
posted by boxscore jr. at 01:24 AM on October 23
The substance thing is now a moot point anyway (even though I brought it up in an eariler post in this thread). LaRussa needed to challenge it before the top of the first inning ended. IF, and I'm saying *if* here, he did have something illegal on his hand, you can bet he's gonna go to greater lengths to hide it because he knows he's now under a microscope. Now the window of opportunity is closed to possibly get the 2006 playoffs' most dominant pitcher out of the Series. LaRussa's gonna be kicking his own behind if the Cards lose three more games this coming week.
posted by NerfballPro at 01:49 AM on October 23
Kenny Rogers doesn't need any "substance" to get guys out. He showed it in last night's game and in the Oakland and Yankee games. And memo to Todd Jones: Us Tiger fans do not need ninth-inning heart attacks.
posted by roberts at 05:32 AM on October 23
Did a guy on boxscore's link really say the Rogers picture must be true because he found it on Fark?
posted by Mr Bismarck at 06:07 AM on October 23
posted by SummersEve at 07:03 AM on October 23
I wouldn't know where to find it, but Fox or Sportscenter (can't remember which) showed KR from each of the three series with a dark smudge mark in the same location. All 3 games- exact same smudge mark location? Wish I could find those images again.
posted by jmd82 at 07:35 AM on October 23
JMD82, I saw the same series of clips on ESPN (not sure if it was SC or not). There was definitely pine tar on his hand in the same spot for each game. And I am saying it was pine tar. There is no doubt about it. I don't really understand how nobody saw this until now. Usually LaRussa would go nuts if he suspected something about the opposing pitcher. I think Rogers got away with one. But I don't care, because he did pitch like a maniac after the pine tar was washed away, so it's not like he is a bad pitcher without the stuff.
posted by sublime4390116 at 08:14 AM on October 23
I thought for a second it might be residue from New-Skin, a liquid bandage substance that can leave an orangey residue in some cases. But that would've had to be a pretty big cut and would have affected his game more than a little bit, especially in his throwing hand. At any rate, I can't imagine he'd be so f'n stupid to use something purposefully when he knows he'll be televised and millions of people will be watching his every move. He's not a rookie; he knows better than that.
posted by evixir at 08:48 AM on October 23
I agree. For Rogers to start using an illegal substance at this point, he would have to: 1) be an aging 40+ pitcher who is doubting his stuff 2) be the sort of person who would be overly concerned about creating a legacy of total and utter failure in the post-season 3) have the sort of temperament that might cause him to overreact under certain tense circumstances to the extent that he might to do something illegal Whoops. For those that are arguing that, hey, Rogers wiped off the "dirt" and still pitched a great game, don't kid yourselves. If a pitcher heads into a game determined to work the ball over, chances are he's bringing several different solutions out to the mound. The minute he thinks they're catching onto one trick, he'll go to another. He said himself that on a cold night like last night the ball is hard and difficult to grip. Check his credit card statement for a recent trip to Home Depot. I turned the game on in the fifth, and when I saw the score the first thing I thought of was that there is no way in the world that Kenny Freakin' Rogers was tossing up zeros in three consecutive games after July (let alone in October) without doing something very, very bad. And I know he didn't sell his soul for it, because he had already done that to get an $8 million contract. It wasn't until later that I heard about the substance on his hand. No surprise whatsoever.
posted by BullpenPro at 09:25 AM on October 23
As a lifetime resident of St. Louis (at least up 'til now) natually I want St. Louis to win. But I predicted "Tigers" in 6, (Glad I never used my real name) Kenny Rogers should be given the benefit of doubt. He pitched a GREAT game all the way thru.Whatever the "smudge"was he kicked our collective butts before and after it was removed. My hat is off to him. Love his passion on the mound. As far as picking him for MVP. Wait until the series is over. No need to canonize him already.
posted by skeet0311 at 09:27 AM on October 23
Eddie Harris: Crisco, Bardol, Vagisil. Any one of them will give you another two to three inches drop on your curve ball. Of course if the umps are watching me real close I'll rub a little jalapeńo up my nose, get it runnin', and if I need to load the ball up I just ... wipe my nose. Rick Vaughn: You put snot on the ball? Eddie Harris: I haven't got an arm like you, kid. I have to put anything on it I can find. Someday you will too.
posted by SummersEve at 09:30 AM on October 23
The "substance" on Rogers hand was not exactly dirt. I hope that it really was poop. That would make a much better story.
posted by bperk at 09:59 AM on October 23
Cheating while chasing home run record: Bad Cheating while playing in World Series: Meh, it was dirt.
posted by tron7 at 10:03 AM on October 23
There was definitely pine tar on his hand in the same spot for each game. And I am saying it was pine tar. There is no doubt about it. So, obviously you applied the pine tar to Rogers' hand, or you have a sworn affadavit from Rogers that it was pine tar. Good work! Are you employed by these guys?
posted by The_Black_Hand at 10:06 AM on October 23
I hope that it really was poop. That would make a much better story. "Why'd you cheat like that Kenny? Why? You're my hero. And you pitch something dirty. Like poop. Poop pitcher. I hate you Kenny Rogers, I hate you."
posted by BullpenPro at 10:10 AM on October 23
posted by sickleguy at 10:14 AM on October 23
Jones needs to do a much better job of taking into consideration the age and heart conditions of the older Tiger fans (like me) before he screws around like that in the 9th inning! They don't call him "Roller Coaster" for nothing. And I say again *jedi mind trick* there is nothing on Kenny Rogers' hand. I repeat, nothing on Rogers' hand! Good thing he pitched so well after that incident, or all hell would have broke loose.
posted by wingnut4life at 10:28 AM on October 23
posted by jerseygirl at 10:45 AM on October 23
Well, TBH, I didn't apply the pine tar, as you have pointed out. But, seeing as you seem to have an opinion but haven't shared it with us, what do you think is on his hand? If it isn't pine tar, then what, pray tell, is it?
posted by sublime4390116 at 10:50 AM on October 23
Besides better grip, what else can different types of gels or liquids do to enhance pitching the ball? I don't really know anything about pitching, so can someone help me out?
posted by bkdet at 11:09 AM on October 23
Yeah, TBH, the onus is obviously on you to prove beyond all doubt that it wasn't pine tar. I expect DNA samples and molecular analyses in your report. I'm kind of looking forward to Game 5, in which he'll be under much more scrutiny. If he ends up with a line of 4.1 IP/6 ER/9 H/4 BB, things could get very interesting for his storied postseason legacy. bkdet, anything that affects the standard shape of the ball—even the smallest patch of pine tar—will affect its flight, giving the pitch more movement. For an older pitcher whose fastball isn't lights-out anymore and has to rely on his breaking pitches more, this can be a huge benefit, giving him an extra foot or two of movement on his curve ball.
posted by DrJohnEvans at 11:16 AM on October 23
At any rate, I can't imagine he'd be so f'n stupid to use something purposefully when he knows he'll be televised and millions of people will be watching his every move. He's not a rookie; he knows better than that. Which game would you be more willing to cheat in: 1) World Series game where victory = historical immortality. 2) Regular season game, where victory is only one of about 90 your team needs. 3) Spring training game where nobody gives a damn. Besides better grip, what else can different types of gels or liquids do to enhance pitching the ball? I don't really know anything about pitching, so can someone help me out? It's all about airflow. If you can alter the airflow on a ball as it spins, it will dip or drop much differently than a regular pitched ball. These dramatic changes in the path of the ball make it very difficult for a batter to make solid contact.
posted by grum@work at 11:18 AM on October 23
Steve Palermo, one of baseball's umpire supervisors, said plate ump Alfonso Marquez noticed the dirt and asked Rogers to clean up. Palermo brushed off thoughts of any nefarious plot. "Dirt is not a foreign substance," Palermo said. "That's what we play on. That's the playing surface." If Palermo and Marquez say its dirt, and we all know umpires are never wrong ... never, than it's dirt. As a life-long Tigers fan I'd hate to see this mar the entire series but alas I know that if they pull off the victory, St. Louis fans will never accept it. I guess its a good thing that I don't live in Missouri. The best part of the night other than the Tigers winning were the postgame interviews. It had the air of a bad political sex scandal. Nobody had the right story, but definitely nobody was guilty. Its enough to take your mind off of the endless stream of political ads that bookend the TV coverage.
posted by gradys_kitchen at 11:34 AM on October 23
The onus of proof is really on Kenny Rogers. If he pitches in game 5 or 6 like he did last night with nothing on his hand, then there is no reason for me to believe that he would need anything to help him pitch. I just can't imagine a scenario where that stuff is something OTHER than pine tar. Except for poop, which would be great, but I don't think so.
posted by sublime4390116 at 11:38 AM on October 23
An extra foot or two of movement? Heh. I will agree, if he gets bombed in Game 6, it'll look pretty suspicious, but he was better after he cleaned off whatever shit it was on his hand. If Orel Hershiser can throw 59 straight scoreless innings, then Kenny can go 23 scoreless innings,and, in fact, has done it before. Go get 'em, Gambler.
posted by mjkredliner at 11:40 AM on October 23
The whole thing is much ado about nothing. A tempest in a teapot. Too many sportswriters with too much time on their hands searching for a reason as to why Rogers is pitching so well and ignoring the obvious, he just is. Through hard work, determination, discipline and just plain desire, he is pitching better in the post season then he has before. That's the real story, not what may or may not have been dirt on his hand.
posted by commander cody at 11:41 AM on October 23
The whole thing is much ado about nothing. Says the Tiger fan. A guy possibly cheats in the World Series and we should just ignore it? Espn showed clips of three straight games with what looks exactly like pine tar on the same spot in his hand. It doesn't seem like a mistake when it happens three games in a row in the same spot. Through hard work, determination, discipline and just plain desire, he is pitching better in the post season then he has before. That's the real story, And Bonds is a great hitter even without steroids.
posted by tron7 at 11:54 AM on October 23
And Bonds is a great hitter even without steroids. Sure as hell was.
posted by mjkredliner at 12:01 PM on October 23
Good grief...... Give me a break with this pine tar BS. If you've ever been in a MLB Dugout (I have) you know that stuff is all over the place. Ever see the helmets these guys wear or their uniforms during or after the game. Its hard not to get this stuff on you. Some of you guys should know better than to buy into these manufactured controversies. What a incredible amount of negitive energy being spent to discredit Kenny Roger's fantastic playoff performance! Way to many of you trust the crap you hear out of the mouth of Fox Sports and ESPN "experts" and to then compare it to the Bonds situation. Shame on you!
posted by skydivedad at 12:02 PM on October 23
I'm willing to believe it was pinetar mixed with dirt. It makes sense. Just two things bother me. One, if they have clips of the same type mark in the same exact spot for three straight games (I haven't seen it), that's weird. And two, rogers seemed to almost be trying to avoid the question during an interview after the game. He might have come off better in other interviews, or have his story down now, but right after the game he didn't come off well, and that was with me thinking it was nothing.
posted by justgary at 12:10 PM on October 23
Sorry you disagree tron7, but I still stand by my statement. Far too many people are looking for there to be something wrong with Rogers performance and if you look hard enough eventually you'll think you've found something, thought there's nothing there. I still say the real story is Rogers determination and intensity and to me that's a good enough story in and of itself, without there having to be some sort of nefarious reason for his success.
posted by commander cody at 12:12 PM on October 23
Sidebar: I was flipping through my Mechanical Turk HITs today and one of them was Rank Your Top 3 Substances on Kenny Rogers hand.
posted by jerseygirl at 12:17 PM on October 23
If you've ever been in a MLB Dugout (I have) you know that stuff is all over the place. Ever see the helmets these guys wear or their uniforms during or after the game. Its hard not to get this stuff on you. Some of you guys should know better than to buy into these manufactured controversies. What a incredible amount of negitive energy being spent to discredit Kenny Roger's fantastic playoff performance! Spit is also found all over a MLB dugout, but you still can't have it on your hands when you are pitching. Thumbtacks, emery boards and sandpaper are also found in MLB dugouts, but you can't bring those out with you to the mound when you are pitching. It's also silly to think that Rogers didn't know he had something on his hand. He looks at it before every single pitch he throws. The rules are very clear that you cannot have any foreign substance (other than regular dirt or rosin) on your hand when you are pitching. You cannot doctor the ball in any way before throwing it. The fact that he had the same mark on the same hand for three consecutive games makes it very suspicious. We aren't talking about "Someone SAW it on his hands." or "I HEARD that it was on his hand.", there is photographic proof out there that it WAS on his hands for more than one instance. I still say the real story is Rogers determination and intensity and to me that's a good enough story in and of itself, without there having to be some sort of nefarious reason for his success. And I still say the real story is Bonds' amazing eye-hand coordination and pitch reading skills, but that doesn't mean anyone is going to believe that either.
posted by grum@work at 12:17 PM on October 23
If Detroit wins this series, Don Denkinger will no longer be the most hated umpire in St. Louis; Steve Palermo will.
posted by NerfballPro at 12:21 PM on October 23
If Detroit wins this series, Don Denkinger will no longer be the most hated umpire in St. Louis; Steve Palermo will. And it'll all be forgotten in a week. Two at the outside.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 12:26 PM on October 23
If you've been around pine tar you'd know you can't get it on you're hand and not realize it. Look, it's illegal to have it on your hand, regardless of if you do it intentionally or if it's giving you an advantage. I don't have a dog in this fight, but to say this is a load of hooey sparked by a bunch of sports writers is a bit silly when the picture shows there's something on his hand. From MLB's official rule book: 3.02 No player shall intentionally discolor or damage the ball by rubbing it with soil, rosin, paraffin, licorice, sand-paper, emery-paper or other foreign substance. PENALTY: The umpire shall demand the ball and remove the offender from the game. In addition, the offender shall be suspended automatically for 10 games. For rules in regard to a pitcher defacing the ball, see Rules 8.02(a)(2) through (6). Under rule 8.02: (little unclear on the exact heading because there are like 10 letters and numbers under this rule) (b) Have on his person, or in his possession, any foreign substance. For such infraction of this section (b) the penalty shall be immediate ejection from the game. In addition, the pitcher shall be suspended automatically for 10 games. Damn that media. Up to their old tricks again.
posted by SummersEve at 12:28 PM on October 23
Whatever Rogers had on his hand, I can't believe that in 3 games, no Major League manager was sharp enough to challenge it. It costs nothing if you are wrong, and always put the seed in the pitcher's mind that you are watching. As a plate umpire, I had a Junior Varsity coach throw a nutty at me just because the opposing pitcher had a flesh-colored band aid on his non-pitching elbow. (I let the pitcher continue as is because not one of the hitters had said anything, and we were well into the second time through the batting order.) The whole idea is to take any advantage you can within the rules, and try to pre-empt the opponent from gaining anything outside the rules.
posted by Howard_T at 12:35 PM on October 23
I haven't seen intensity like that from a Tiger since Mark The Bird. I'm not a Kenny Rogers fan but I am impressed by his current pitching streak. We'll never know if it is/was natural or enhanced just like we'll never know if Joe Montana was throwing the ball away that Jack Clark caught. Comparing Kenny to Fidrych is an insult to Kenny or to any other pitcher for that matter. Fidrych was not intense he was a circus act. I saw him at least once in Anaheim and he was just crazy--his antics did nothing to help his team, he was a distraction. His 5-year record of 29-19, with 19 of the wins coming in his first year attest to his lack of impact as anything other than a flash-in-the-pan freakshow. Kenny deserves better.
posted by Termite at 12:36 PM on October 23
No player shall intentionally discolor I think the key word is intentionally and the umpires ruled that there was nothing intentional going on. Still a tempest in a teapot to me.
posted by commander cody at 12:38 PM on October 23
Hey, while we're all photoshopping , why not go all out? So, obviously you applied the pine tar to Rogers' hand, or you have a sworn affadavit from Rogers that it was pine tar. Black_Hand said it best.
posted by smithnyiu at 12:41 PM on October 23
Besides better grip, what else can different types of gels or liquids do to enhance pitching the ball? It's all about airflow. I think it's a little about balance too. Dabbing a dense substance like pine tar or vaseline onto a sphere is bound to upset the balance of the ball and make its flight more unpredictable to the batter. Putt a golf ball to a cup. Now putt an egg to a cup. See how different (and unpredictable) the path of the egg? ( Now clean up. What in the world possessed you to hit an egg with a golf club in the house?) I agree that Rogers' next game will be VERY telling. I am totally curious to know if sandpaper is as effective overall as pine tar. How very telling that will be. The only thing that's going to make me sicker than I am right now is when history whitewashes this story into "The World Series in which the crafty veteran Kenny Rogers put a little 'something extra' into his pitches and erased his past post-season failures with one of the greatest performances of all-time, leading the Tigers to the championship." The Gaylording of Kenny Rogers. Pure nausea.
posted by BullpenPro at 12:42 PM on October 23
Hey I just saw a picture that supposedly show it was shit on KR hand, I guess that’s "proof” too? Still haven't seen this photographic proof from 3 strait appearances showing some substance on the same part of the hand as was seen last night. Can it really be proof at this point? I am sure some folks in St. Louis are handy with the old Photoshop! Now I have read & heard lots of stories today, that most MLB pitchers use some type of doctoring method usually pine tar. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't what he had on his hand last night. An undeniable FACT is he went on to pitch 7 more innings of shut out ball. He would have to be a LUNITIC to continue doctoring the ball AFTER it was brought to light. I feel that the media is just itching to find someway to discredit this years Tigers. Hell I can hardly believe "The Detroit Tigers take the field in the 102nd World Series" myself! Maybe that’s what KR brought to The Motor City, the ability to teach all the young kids to doctor the ball. Not Gold Glove pitcher fielding or veteran leadership. No doubt in my mind IF the umpire thought he was violating he would have been inspected & tossed. From the umpires perspective it is usually pretty easy to see the ball's movement & unusually movement at that.
posted by directpressure at 12:49 PM on October 23
Still haven't seen this photographic proof from 3 strait appearances showing some substance on the same part of the hand as was seen last night. It was on Sportsecenter or Baseball Tonight last night, so it's probably on again right now, or in an hour, or any time before 4 Eastern. Well, if there's no strong-man competitions to broadcast.
posted by tron7 at 12:57 PM on October 23
Yes. The media got together in a secret meeting at Area 51 and voted unanimously on act 408b, also known as "Let's screw the Tigers." Then they had crackers and marmalade served by Lee harvey Oswald while listening to a live Elvis Presley and Jim Morrison duet while Jimmy Hoffa danced the lambada with Amelia Fucking Earhart.
posted by SummersEve at 12:58 PM on October 23
Was Janis Joplin busy?
posted by commander cody at 12:59 PM on October 23
I had her in there, but I thought "duet" sounded better.
posted by SummersEve at 01:01 PM on October 23
posted by commander cody at 01:02 PM on October 23
To me, it sounds like a slow news day! A big story is needed to fill the void.
posted by daddisamm at 01:05 PM on October 23
3.02: No player shall intentionally discolor or damage the ball by rubbing it with soil, rosin, paraffin, licorice, sand-paper, emery-paper or other foreign substance. It's all true. My licorice addiction got me banned from pitching in Little League, and sent me back to right field.
posted by DrJohnEvans at 01:07 PM on October 23
Well, if there's no strong-man competitions to broadcast. Don't forget the 5 minute ESPN Terrell Owens update (Previously 3 minute, but people complained)
posted by smithnyiu at 01:08 PM on October 23
Pfffft. I think they're all cheating. I wouldn't be surprised if Kenny is doctoroing the ball; certainly not anymore surprised to discover that steroids, corked bats, stolen signs, not-sharing-weather-information, greasing bunt lines, wetting the infield and blah, blah, blah all happen on a regular basis. It's baseball. Everybody cheats - it's a long and storied tradition. Games still manage to get played and somehow life continues to grind on and WS championships go undisputed. This is all very par for the course, IMHO. Basically a mountain out of a mole hill, but not in the way some others have described it.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 01:09 PM on October 23
I like the strong man competitions, but I still miss Australian rules football.
posted by commander cody at 01:11 PM on October 23
To me, it sounds like a slow news day! A big story is needed to fill the void. He possibly cheated in the World Series! How can it get more newsworthy then that? What does he have to do kill someone(or have Maddux do it for him) before it's newsworthy? On preview: Good point Weedy, make mine read "He possibly got caught cheating".
posted by tron7 at 01:15 PM on October 23
I would like to have seen Rogers go George Brett on the umps.
posted by Bill Lumbergh at 01:25 PM on October 23
One, if they have clips of the same type mark in the same exact spot for three straight games (I haven't seen it), that's weird. Still haven't seen this photographic proof from 3 strait appearances showing some substance on the same part of the hand as was seen last night They show them on the video here. Just press play on the picture of Kenny. Also from the video, I wonder if Kenny knew he had a band-aid on his shoulder.
posted by tselson at 01:31 PM on October 23
He possibly cheated in the World Series! How can it get more newsworthy then that? What does he have to do kill someone(or have Maddux do it for him) before it's newsworthy? Perhaps...do something that every other pitcher isn't doing, every time he thinks he can get away with it?
posted by lil_brown_bat at 01:54 PM on October 23
George Brett votes to legalize pine tar.
posted by BullpenPro at 01:55 PM on October 23
when I saw the score the first thing I thought of was that there is no way in the world that Kenny Freakin' Rogers was tossing up zeros in three consecutive games after July (let alone in October) without doing something very, very bad. Yeah, right.
posted by ledzep77 at 02:02 PM on October 23
Believe me I don't condone cheating. And if Kenny Rogers was, that's too bad. But let's face it, he had whatever substance it was on his hand for one inning. He gave up one hit in that inning. And for seven more innings without any substance on his hand, he gave up exactly one more hit. Quite frankly I think it would have been much more damning if the Cardinals would have all of a sudden started hitting the white off the ball. Oh well, if the Tigers end up winning the World Series, Cardinals fans have their excuse as to why they lost four games to the Tigers: Kenny Rogers had a foreign substance on his hand for one inning of only one of those losses.
posted by Greenmiles at 02:05 PM on October 23
What Greenmiles said.
posted by commander cody at 02:08 PM on October 23
Submitted as Exhibit Next -- a shot of Rogers pitching in the ALDS. Maybe it wasn't pine tar after all. When asked later, he said he had no idea he had toilet paper on his shoe. But he knew about the seat cover. That was for luck.
posted by BullpenPro at 02:13 PM on October 23
Perhaps...do something that every other pitcher isn't doing, every time he thinks he can get away with it? I'm not real clear on what you're saying here. Is it, everyone's doing it so it's not a big deal?
posted by tron7 at 02:17 PM on October 23
NEWS FLASH.... Anthony Reyes accused of rubbing balls with Preparation H
posted by ledzep77 at 02:23 PM on October 23
OK I watched the video. They do have 3 separate times you can "see” something on his hand. Last night & 1 other time same spot, once on the index finger. I am not familiar with rosin (I know what it is & what it is supposed too do) but is it possible that the use of rosin & dirt could be the cause? If not let me know, as I said I don't know rosin very well! This could be a cause/effect, which falls completely with in the rules. Or he could have been dabbing the pine tar on his hand. It wouldn't be the first time an athlete tried to gain a competitive advantage. I just hope the league doesn’t suspend him too long. Oh, wait the Ump didn’t throw him out of the game for violating the rules.............
posted by directpressure at 02:32 PM on October 23
I seriously doubt that a Major league Umpire after talking to/or looking at KR's hand would say "Now this is your first warning, if you dont clean that off your out" Im sure that if there was anything on the hand other than dirt he would be sent packing rather quickly. Im suprised that this hasnt been brought up but all players have warm-up routines (jumping jacks, streches, push-ups ect.) and its been raining in Michigan for 2 weeks straight now. If there were times his hands were in the turf like during a push up or strech, Im sure there would be some dirt transfer and residue there. The rosin/dirt could be the culprit.
posted by 1trusparty at 02:36 PM on October 23
But he knew about the seat cover. That was for luck. Can't blame him for that. I've never been to Comerica, but in the old Tiger Stadium going to the bathroom could be an adventure in itself. Though in their defense they did a better job of keeping them clean then at the Silverdome! Yuck!
posted by commander cody at 03:01 PM on October 23
He possibly cheated in the World Series! How can it get more newsworthy then that? What does he have to do kill someone(or have Maddux do it for him) before it's newsworthy? Maddux uses a mixture of the blood of freshly slain whores and manatee intestines to doctor the ball.
posted by holden at 03:35 PM on October 23
Can't blame him for that. I've never been to Comerica, but in the old Tiger Stadium going to the bathroom could be an adventure in itself. Though in their defense they did a better job of keeping them clean then at the Silverdome! Yuck! Nothing can top the fine bathrooms at the Joe.
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 03:40 PM on October 23
They do have 3 separate times you can "see” something on his hand. Last night & 1 other time same spot, once on the index finger. I am not familiar with rosin (I know what it is & what it is supposed too do) but is it possible that the use of rosin & dirt could be the cause? If not let me know, as I said I don't know rosin very well! And he would be the only pitcher in the playoffs to which this happened? You'd think other pitchers might have the same problem since they are using the same rosin bag and the same mound. It wouldn't be the first time an athlete tried to gain a competitive advantage. I just hope the league doesn’t suspend him too long. Yes. Cheating is perfectly acceptable if we just define it as "competitive advantage". Corked bat? Competitive advantage! Steroids? Competitive advantage! Attempting to slap a ball out of a fielder's glove? Competitive advantage! Blocking a runner from advancing a base? Competitive advantage!
posted by grum@work at 03:57 PM on October 23
Any theories as to why LaRussa didn't make a big deal out of this?
posted by bperk at 04:31 PM on October 23
Several at the bottom of this page.
posted by mjkredliner at 04:40 PM on October 23
Good question, bperk. I think that once LaRussa asked the Umpire to check it out and the Umpire asked Rogers to clean-up that there was nothing further he, LaRussa, could do. I think what we saw was that the Umpire approached Rogers after the inning was over as he was headed into the dugout. Brown stain removed--end of discussion. When Joe Buck asked LaRussa durnig the game about the incident LaRussa replied that it was not something that he was going to discuss during the game. This might indicate that LaRussa is going to talk to the League Office which we should hear about soon. This is unusual behavior by the umpire and I think it is out of "spec." I've seen both Don Sutton and Brendan Donelley undressed by the umpire on the mound at Angel Stadium. I'm sure that askng them to clean-up would have been better for the Angels.
posted by Termite at 04:54 PM on October 23
leland is larussa's friend they talk . Leland knows whos cheating on the cards
posted by joy at 05:00 PM on October 23
Maybe the Cardinals didn't do anything about it because apparently everybody does it, especially in the cold. Todd Jones even wrote about how much he likes pine tar: I pitched in Denver for two years, and at a mile above sea level, I used pine tar every time I pitched at home ... It's funny; pine tar is no big deal to players. Everybody uses pine tar. Catchers put in on their shinguards. Infielders put it in the pockets of their gloves so the ball will stick in there. It's almost a basic part of the game. So maybe LaRussa just told the umps he didn't want to make a big deal about it. Just a guess as I read more about it.
posted by SummersEve at 05:11 PM on October 23
What a bunch of mental masturbation you all have going on here. Some of you have St. Louis already losing and whining about a pitcher who may or may not have cheated. The media is making a big thing about it. LaRussa didn't even file an official protest. And I nominate Joy for stupidest post of the week: leland is larussa's friend they talk . Leland knows whos cheating on the cards That's right Joy, managers tell each other everything about everybody on their teams. I don't care if Jim is giving Tony reach arounds that isn't going to happen. Selig the meek should look into it but he won't. Ho hum.
posted by budman13 at 06:47 PM on October 23
That's right Joy, managers tell each other everything about everybody on their teams. I don't care if Jim is giving Tony reach arounds that isn't going to happen Actually, Leyland was in the St. Louis Cardinals organization as a scout before he took over the helm at Detroit. So it's quite possible that he'd have some inside information about some of the pitchers on the St. Louis roster.
posted by grum@work at 06:56 PM on October 23
leland is larussa's friend they talk . Leland knows whos cheating on the cards Marvelous insight. I'm really suspicious about that Pujols guy, it seems like he has an unfair advantage over everyone else.
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 08:24 PM on October 23
Come on....Yes, Jim was a stay at home scout. And I'm sure that he has some insight into some of the players but to say that because Jim and Tony are best buds and talk multiple times during any given day (by the way they have both said that during the series they wouldn't have personal conversations) that Jim knows who's "cheating" as if some one is cheating(no mysterious stain on a Cardinals pitchers hand) on the Cardinals is beyond the pale.
posted by budman13 at 08:26 PM on October 23
An undeniable FACT is he went on to pitch 7 more innings of shut out ball. Thats all folks!
posted by yay-yo at 08:39 PM on October 23
Maddux uses a mixture of the blood of freshly slain whores and manatee intestines to doctor the ball. Fuck the ball, I heard Maddux doctored the umpire! A combination of hypnosis and sheer hellish evil power pulsing from the mound always guaranteed the outside corner. A little Ouija board, some chicken bones and a deep understanding of voodoo will do wonders. Well, that and the daily ritual sacrifices (Do a little running, some light weight work, kill a hobo, some wind sprints and long toss).
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 09:47 PM on October 23
O.K. they notice something on Kenny Roger's hand. Tony LaRussa did not say anything. The Umpires did not do anything. The only ones making an issue are the folks at Fox Sports and Tim McCarver. And in case you sports fans don't know, Tim McCarver was a catcher for the Cardnials back in the 60's and 70's. OH And lets not forget he was the one who made the final out in the 1968 World Series. And who won that Series. The Detroit Tigers. Sounds like a bad case of Sour Grapes to me. Hey Timmy, it's been 38 yrs get yourself a women and get over it.
posted by Jedi Master at 12:34 AM on October 24
Now I have read & heard lots of stories today, that most MLB pitchers use some type of doctoring method usually pine tar. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't what he had on his hand last night. An undeniable FACT is he went on to pitch 7 more innings of shut out ball. Well said, even after his hand was washed clean he still blanked the Cards for seven more innings. Had they started to hit Rogers after the first, maybe there would be something to this, but they didn't. Unfortunately the story has to be Rogers pitches another gem.
posted by jojomfd1 at 01:20 AM on October 24
Told the wife about the controversy and then pointed Rogers out on the sports news. She says that if they ever do a movie about him they should cast George Clooney in his part since he's a dead ringer for him. Now that I look, there is a resemblance! Wonder if there'd be any pine tar on the prop list? I still think he's pitching clean though, just really really good.
posted by commander cody at 01:45 AM on October 24
cc, how could you not see the difference in the pictuers that they showed lastnight on tv, and again all over tv? You can't honestly say it was dirt. The only thing that saved him was the next seven innings.
posted by jojomfd1 at 02:04 AM on October 24
I saw it, but for me it's more a case of no harm, no foul. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
posted by commander cody at 02:07 AM on October 24
I actually applaud LaRussa (yuck, I can't believe I just typed that) for how he handled it. He said Monday: "I alerted (the plate umpire). I said I hope it gets fixed. If it doesn't get fixed, then I'll take the next step. I do think if someone is abusing (the rules) -- I don't care what the abuse is -- before it becomes a big deal or ugly, I mean, stop it." After reading up on it, I agree with commander: No harm, no foul. But, next time, Kenny, be a little more discreet, huh? Just 'cause everyone else is doing it, doesn't mean you can put it right on your pitching hand. (On edit: that isn't to say I don't think it's a big story, I just think LaRussa handled it the right way.)
posted by SummersEve at 06:43 AM on October 24
get yourself a women and get over it Impressive.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 07:52 AM on October 24
I think it is hilarious how many people are just assuming that, because the pine tar was wiped off, Rogers MUST have been pitching straight up after the first inning. I mean, if you didn't see the sandpaper/vaseline/thumb tack/emery board etc. then it couldn't have existed. Right? Peek-a-boo must be a terrifying experience for some here. I'm not saying conclusively (because I don't know either) whether he did or he didn't (strongly suspect it, yes). But I can't believe how willing some are to believe that the only stuff he could have been using was the stuff YOU saw. And if you're of the opinion that he could not have been cheating because the umpires would have been looking for it, well, got news for you: it happens. It's been known to occur that umpires even throw doctored balls back into play after inspecting them. The pitchers aren't using neon glow sticks here, and the umps aren't putting the balls under a microscope. Ask Gaylord Perry.
posted by BullpenPro at 08:07 AM on October 24
Jedi Master: Welcome to Sportsfilter. I figure you may have missed our guidelines. They're pretty cool and detail the rules of the road here. If you have any questions, feel free to email or to bring it up in the lockerroom. Also, "get yourself a women" offends both the women and everyone who loves English. We know about Tim McCarver, though, and generally agree that calling him an idiot is a grave insult to idiots across the globe. Thanks so much and again, welcome to Sportsfilter!
posted by jerseygirl at 08:39 AM on October 24
Picture this: your team signs a pitcher with some fairly high expectations. After a pretty mediocre season on a winning team, he is routinely run out to pitch critical, series turning Game 4's and without fail he puts the opposition on a merry-go-round and your team in a big, very critical hole. Then, this same pitcher lands on a team for another post-season, a team for which you have some rooting interest, and he almost single-handedly takes the team out of the playoffs with just dismal performances, including walking in the series losing run. Then this same guy becomes the self-satisfied ace of a team that routinely has no pitching, and has accolades heaped on him for fabulous first-half performances that are long forgotten (like his team) by October. And then he punches a camera man, apparently unprovoked. THEN, the guy gets his cash cow, signs for $8 mil at age 41, goes to the post-season and pitches the game of his life against the same team he nearly buried with his putricity in the post-season 10 years earlier. Picture that this is your team. Forget that maybe you hate the team and $200 million dollars and yadda yadda. Man, I really just don't have anything good to say about Kenny Rogers today. I tip my cap with appreciation for the performance to Verlander, and will to Bonderman if he closes the door today, but Rogers gets nothing but my disgust and ire. His curve ball was awesome last night, and he had Jimmy-Key-like craft. There. I said something nice. That physically hurt. BPP, we don't expect you to give Rogers the benefit of the doubt after the first inning. Those cameras were watching him from every angle for the rest of that game just waiting for him to do anything questionable, so they could make a bigger deal of it than they already did.
posted by jojomfd1 at 08:56 AM on October 24
The original story that was linked to this thread was a box score and summary of the Detroit Tigers winning game 2 of the World Series. Somehow, the thread got twisted into the "Kenny Rogers Show". The man pitched a good game and the Tigers won the game, end of story.
posted by ledzep77 at 09:15 AM on October 24
Earlier this morning ESPN reported that Cardinal hitters had suggested that the only "weird" or "unnatural" movement of the ball was the velocity with which Rodgers was pitching. He was hitting 92-93 MPH instead of his usual 85-87MPH.
posted by yay-yo at 09:22 AM on October 24
Well, TBH, I didn't apply the pine tar, as you have pointed out. But, seeing as you seem to have an opinion but haven't shared it with us, what do you think is on his hand? I do have an opinion, and it has nothing to do with what was or wasn't on Kenny Rogers' hand, because I don't know what it was, and neither do you. My opinion is this: if you don't know what the hell you're talking about, (and in this situation, you don't) you shouldn't make absolute declarations, because you could end up looking like a dumbass. Greg Maddux, Greg Maddux...don't make me say it a third time.
posted by The_Black_Hand at 09:32 AM on October 24
Hey Timmy, it's been 38 yrs get yourself a women and get over it. Betcha can't eat just one. Sorry, couldn't resist. Also, here's a link to to LaRussa's talk on Monday, which also happened to be booming out of the Busch Stadium loudspeakers as the Tigers were going through their drills. As for DirtGate PineTarGate, I'll say it also -- it wasn't dirt. Dirt doesn't discolour your hand in that manner. It was pine tar, it was cheating, it was removed and Rogers still handed my Cards their collective asses. Move on -- just make sure to have him checked if there's a Game Six.
posted by wfrazerjr at 09:38 AM on October 24
I really, really hate Kenny Rogers in a totally unnatural, I-really-should-see-somebody-about-this kind of way. That one would have made your point more succinctly, jojo (though it is certainly an exaggerated version of my real feelings). 1. Rogers success in this postseason is unprecedented in his career. 2. Rogers fits the profile, in almost caricature fashion, of the person and circumstance in which one would expect a pitcher to doctor the baseball a bit. 3. I suspected Rogers wasn't working clean before I heard about the "dirt." 4. He's been caught red-handed with something and his story is all over the place. 5. Few pitchers who are going to go the doctoring route come to the mound with only one trick. I am not hiding the fact that I dislike Kenny Rogers, but it is not my motive for suspicion. It is simply intensifying my desire to be suspicious of him. If it was a pitcher I liked and rooted for -- say, Jimmy Key, who was a very similar style of pitcher (although he was a lot better over his career) -- and he was pitching out of his mind and he got caught tar-handed, I would be equally suspicious, but highly unlikely to push the subject as much. I don't think, in this case, my personal feelings about Rogers discredits my argument. And the key to doctoring a ball is to be able to do it in plain sight without suspicion. You know, I once saw a guy pull a rabbit right out of a hat. the only "weird" or "unnatural" movement of the ball was the velocity with which Rodgers was pitching And he's on steroids. I knew it. (Okay. THAT was irresponsible.)
posted by BullpenPro at 09:39 AM on October 24
Listening to the conspiracy theororists regarding Kenny Rogers would have you believe that he was also spotted at the grassy knoll in Dallas in 1963. Apparently they have an axe to grind with their dislike of Kenny Rogers or, their favorite team is sitting at home watching the World Series like everyone else. Their only intention is to drag Kenny Rogers through the dirt, muddy his reputation and pinetar & feather him. The simple fact remains, Kenny Rogers pitched a good game and the Tigers won. I wash my hands.
posted by ledzep77 at 10:01 AM on October 24
Peek-a-boo must be a terrifying experience for some here. I must admit, these things scare the shit out of me.
posted by tselson at 10:53 AM on October 24
In Perry’s Book, a Brown Smudge Is Not a Black Mark
posted by justgary at 11:41 AM on October 24
The man pitched a good game and the Tigers won the game, end of story. The simple fact remains, Kenny Rogers pitched a good game and the Tigers won. I wash my hands. The simple fact remains, Barry Bonds hit 73 home runs and set the record. I wash my hands. The simple fact remains, Pete Rose passed Ty Cobb and set the all-time hits record. I wash my hands. Come on, everyone! Join in the fun! Let's all ignore the 800lb gorilla in the room!
posted by grum@work at 12:01 PM on October 24
Apparently they have an axe to grind with their dislike of Kenny Rogers or, their favorite team is sitting at home watching the World Series like everyone else. Well, let me tell you, the "TIGERS ARE IN THE WORLD SERIES THEREFORE THEY'RE THE ABSOLUTE GREATEST TEAM OF ALL TIME AND EACH PLAYER ON THE TWENTY-FIVE-MAN ROSTER SHOULD RECEIVE A NOBEL PEACE PRIZE" argument is wearing a little thin, too. I like the team, but come on.
posted by DrJohnEvans at 12:40 PM on October 24
Barry Bonds hit 73 home runs and set the record. . Pete Rose passed Ty Cobb and set the all-time hits record. TIGERS ARE IN THE WORLD SERIES THEREFORE THEY'RE THE ABSOLUTE GREATEST TEAM OF ALL TIME AND EACH PLAYER ON THE TWENTY-FIVE-MAN ROSTER SHOULD RECEIVE A NOBELPEACE PRIZE" How does either of these rants apply to the Detroit Tigers winning 1 World Series game? Did somebody forget to take their medication today? Chill!
posted by ledzep77 at 01:35 PM on October 24
Television close-ups indicated that Rogers had something on his hand in the first inning, but he washed it off before the second and pitched seven more scoreless innings. That is what stands out for me. I'm not sure what was on his hand, and I really don't want to know. However, Rogers did pitch several great innings after he washed off his hand. I understand that cheating is cheating and there should be no free passes, but I don't see him gaining much of a competitive advantage from it. EACH PLAYER ON THE TWENTY-FIVE-MAN ROSTER SHOULD RECEIVE A NOBEL PEACE PRIZE Leyland for president!
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 01:57 PM on October 24
How does either of these rants apply to the Detroit Tigers winning 1 World Series game? I think it's being applied to your apparent willingness to forgive someone for cheating because he pitched a good game after he was caught.
posted by wfrazerjr at 01:57 PM on October 24
From MLB's official rule book:3.02 No player shall intentionally discolor or damage the ball by rubbing it with soil, rosin, paraffin, licorice, sand-paper, emery-paper or other foreign substance. PENALTY: The umpire shall demand the ball and remove the offender from the game. In addition, the offender shall be suspended automatically for 10 games. For rules in regard to a pitcher defacing the ball, see Rules 8.02(a)(2) through (6). To put an end to all of the silliness: Since the umpire did not demand the ball nor remove said offender from the game, the umpire must have determined that the foreign substance was not foreign at all. The pinetar was not imported but rather (you guessed it) good ol' AMERICAN pinetar. It is good to see that not all of America's products are being outsourced
posted by ledzep77 at 02:08 PM on October 24
"TIGERS ARE IN THE WORLD SERIES THEREFORE THEY'RE THE ABSOLUTE GREATEST TEAM OF ALL TIME AND EACH PLAYER ON THE TWENTY-FIVE-MAN ROSTER SHOULD RECEIVE A NOBEL PEACE PRIZE" And a mansion and a yacht and have buildings and bridges named after them and...........
posted by ledzep77 at 02:13 PM on October 24
It is good to see that not all of America's products are being outsourced Nice try, but it's the jobs that are being outsourced, not the products. Otherwise we'd have a whopping trade surplus and everybody wins! I understand that cheating is cheating and there should be no free passes, but I don't see him gaining much of a competitive advantage from it. Well, he may have gained a similar advantage in previous games, against much more imposing offenses, helping the Tigers to make the WS in the first place. I'm just sayin'.
posted by Venicemenace at 02:22 PM on October 24
Nice try, but it's the jobs that are being outsourced, not the products. Otherwise we'd have a whopping trade surplus and everybody wins! Wow! Thanks for the economics lesson Einstein, you must be great at parties.
posted by ledzep77 at 02:32 PM on October 24
To put an end to all of the silliness: Since the umpire did not demand the ball nor remove said offender from the game, the umpire must have determined that the foreign substance was not foreign at all. It would have been pretty difficult for the umpire to demand the ball considering the question was brought up between innings. AFAIK, there was never any close examination of the substance that had been on Rogers's hand. He was asked by home-plate umpire Alfonso Marqueze to wash up, he came out clean for the top of the second and there was no further discussion, and there shouldn't have been. That doesn't mean he wasn't cheating. It simply means that he didn't get caught, and that the Cardinals didn't want to make a huge, hairy deal out of it. I consider that a mistake on LaRussa's part, but so be it. Thanks for the economics lesson Einstein, you must be great at parties. Nice. Are we going to be tools now?
posted by wfrazerjr at 02:58 PM on October 24
ledzep, Hello and welcome to SpoFi, because of your registration date, you may have missed this. Blahdy, blah blah, yadda yadda, I'll save you the welcome wagon spiel, just read the guidelines please.
posted by jerseygirl at 03:00 PM on October 24
Aww...I like the welcome wagon spiel.
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 03:37 PM on October 24
It is cute. Still I wonder that no one reacted to my wife comparing KR to George Clooney? Hmmmm....
posted by commander cody at 04:03 PM on October 24
TBH does like to pontificate on the hotness of Clooney too, but I presume you mean me. Clooney is ridiculously hot older man. Kenny Rogers, rather attractive older man but he has shit on his hand.
posted by jerseygirl at 04:06 PM on October 24
It is cute. Still I wonder that no one reacted to my wife comparing KR to George Clooney? Hmmmm.... I thought you were joking. So, I have now studied the issue and she's right. Except Rogers is like the ugly cousin to Clooney. I chose a picture that I thought showed the resemblance.
posted by bperk at 04:10 PM on October 24
Yep, I'll buy the ugly cousin part for sure.
posted by commander cody at 04:17 PM on October 24
I'm ducking the shit on hand part. ;-)
posted by commander cody at 04:18 PM on October 24
Hmm. Uh. Yeh. posted by BrownnosePro
posted by BullpenPro at 05:41 PM on October 24
So rcade and Rogers(Kenny) both resemble Clooney but don't look like each other? Odd.
posted by tron7 at 05:54 PM on October 24
Know what else is odd? 3.
posted by yerfatma at 06:39 PM on October 24
posted by commander cody at 08:15 PM on October 24
Kenny Rogers, rather attractive older man but he has shit on his hand. Ha. My better half watched rogers pitch and said "that is NOT an attractive man". Of course, that could have been the shit on his hand.
posted by justgary at 01:48 AM on October 25
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