FanDuel - WFBC

October 06, 2006

Sports Illustrated's All-Time All-Star Team:
Their choices for 25 players (seven starting pitchers, two relievers, two catchers, seven infielders and seven outfielders), one manager and two coaches in building an team from the history of baseball. I'm sure that no one will have a problem with their selections...

posted by grum@work to baseball at 11:25 PM - 66 comments

My All-Time All-Star All-Snubbed team (players not on S.I.'s list): C: Carlton Fisk, Mike Piazza (Not a great fielding duo, but think of the hitting!) 1B/DH: Albert Pujols, Jimmie Foxx (It might be too early to list Pujols as an all-time great (< 1000 games), but i think he's that good right now.) 2B: Joe Morgan, Eddie Collins (I have no idea how Morgan didn't make S.I.'s list.) SS: Cal Ripken Jr., Derek Jeter (They've got the skills AND the fans would love my team more.) 3B: George Brett (Pujols can back him up if necessary.) OF: Barry Bonds, Rickey Henderson, Ken Griffey Jr, Frank Robinson, Mel Ott (Power, speed, Gold Gloves...these 5 run the gamut as a set.) UT: Robin Yount (It's almost criminal to list him as a utility player.) SP: Pedro Martinez, Tom Seaver, Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux, Bob Gibson (I think 4 of these guys are better than a couple of the S.I. selections.) RP: Pete Alexander, Bob Feller (I'd set up a 7 man rotation if it was feasible, but these guys in the pen would be lights out if needed.) Setup: Hoyt Wilhelm (Imagine facing his knuckler after all the heat and pinpoint accuracy you saw before him...) Closer: Trevor Hoffman (If I have to stick to modern tradition, this isn't a bad choice for the role.)

posted by grum@work at 12:02 AM on October 07

Grum, i like your picks as much as S.I.'s. Lots of room for debate here. I didn't see Kaline,Nolan Ryan,Jeter and many others. And yes, i agree George Brett should have been in there.

posted by texasred at 05:51 AM on October 07

There should be 2 lists, one for the leagues with 8 teams each, with musial, berra, dimaggio, spahn, and one for the watered down version we see today.

posted by stickman at 07:28 AM on October 07

watered down version we see today. Clemens, Martinez, Yount, Bonds, Henderson, Griffey Jr., Robinson, Brett, Ripken, Jeter, Morgan, Pujols, Fisk, Piazza, Seaver, Johnson, Maddux, Rivera, Rodriguez, Schmidt and Bench all came from the "watered down" version. Considering that a large portion of history of the 8-team league involved segregation, and also considering that athletes have been getting faster, strong and better with each successive generation, I would propose that the time of Ruth, Gehrig and Cobb was the "watered down" version.

posted by grum@work at 10:07 AM on October 07

What about Ozzie Smith!! You can't forget the wizard. I don't really understand the gripe about Spahn. He is the most winning lefty of all time. A win is a win no matter how he got it.

posted by kidrayter2005 at 10:07 AM on October 07

SI's list is good, however A-Rod for SS? I think that there were much better SS's than A-Rod over the years. How about Robin Yount, Ozzie Smith, or Ernie Banks?

posted by usroute17 at 10:08 AM on October 07

Oh yeah, how could I have forgotten Mr. Cub himself at SS.

posted by kidrayter2005 at 10:28 AM on October 07

The most glaring omission, in my opinion, is Bonds (and I realize that is explained in the article, but it doesn't make it any better).

posted by holden at 10:28 AM on October 07

And Thom Brennaman may be disappointed to see that Jeff Kent is not included as the 2B.

posted by holden at 10:33 AM on October 07

I guess Martinez and Gibson stand out to me the most. I'm in no way a qualified historian, so it's hard to relate to those turn of the century players. Despite what people say about his character and "clutchiness" A-Rod has to have what it takes to be on the list, right? These lists are tough because you have to put an end to it at some point.

posted by YukonGold at 10:39 AM on October 07

roberto clemente and frank thomas?

posted by 15yroldkid at 10:48 AM on October 07

Here is SI's list in a more easy-to-digest order: John McGraw, MANAGER Joe McCarthy, COACH Casey Stengel, COACH Warren Spahn, PITCHER Lefty Grove, PITCHER Roger Clemens, PITCHER Cy Young, PITCHER Sandy Koufax, PITCHER Christy Mathewson, PITCHER Walter Johnson, PITCHER Dennis Eckersley, PITCHER Mariano Rivera, PITCHER Yogi Berra, CATCHER Johnny Bench, CATCHER Lou Gehrig, FIRST BASEMAN Stan Musial, FIRST BASE Rogers Hornsby, SECOND BASE Jackie Robinson, SECOND BASE Honus Wagner, SHORTSTOP Alex Rodriguez, SHORTSTOP Mike Schmidt, THIRD BASE Hank Aaron, OUTFIELD Joe DiMaggio, OUTFIELD Ted Williams, OUTFIELD Ty Cobb, OUTFIELD Babe Ruth, OUTFIELD Willie Mays, OUTFIELD Mickey Mantle, OUTFIELD

posted by BullpenPro at 10:52 AM on October 07

Really hard to take issue with the list. I keep thinking of omissions, but they frankly don't stand up that well against these guys. I would probably slot Maddux for Spahn because I'd be afraid not to. And if I wanted my team to actually win anything I'd replace A-Rod with Jeter (that's just how I roll). Good job, SI.

posted by BullpenPro at 11:02 AM on October 07

You guys are all over this list. Just one more, though: Brooks Robinson belongs in the 3B discussion.

posted by chicobangs at 11:06 AM on October 07

The only one I can contest is Jonny Bench. I was a catcher from the age of 6 to about 21 when the military in Germany stopped Baseball. I think Bench tossed sand in our face. He was a great catcher and had a good stick. No hall-of-fame, no S.I. list.

posted by Psycho at 01:16 PM on October 07

I think the point of this is that there are too many great players for too many reasons to make a "best of all time" list that's perfect.

posted by dfleming at 01:39 PM on October 07

Yogi Berra ahead of Mickey Cochrane? Seems as though a poll of sportswriters in 1970 rated Black Mike the best of all time and berra had retired.

posted by petem at 01:50 PM on October 07

He is the most winning lefty of all time. A win is a win no matter how he got it. Except that all wins are not the same. A pitcher can throw 6 innings of 8 hit, 5 run ball and get a win, while another can throw 9 innings of 0 hit, 0 run ball and not get a win. roberto clemente and frank thomas? I had Frank Thomas in my 1B list above, but I decided that he's more "DH" than 1B and wanted to go with Pujols (who could play 3B, OF and 1B). In reality, that's more of me being blinded by the recent greatness of Pujols and position flexibility than any knock against Thomas. Clemente is a great humanitarian, a great glove, and he reached a significant milestone (3000 hits), but he really doesn't qualify as one of the all-time greats in the OF. What about Ozzie Smith!! You can't forget the wizard. I thought about listing him as a defensive replacement for my SS list, but decided that I couldn't overlook Jeter and Ripken. I think Bench tossed sand in our face. He was a great catcher and had a good stick. No hall-of-fame, no S.I. list. I'm a little confused. Are you saying that Bench isn't in the Hall of Fame? Brooks Robinson belongs in the 3B discussion. There is just no way I could put Brooks ahead of Schmidt or Brett, and that's not even bringing up Eddie Matthews or Wade Boggs. Again, like the Wizard of Oz, I'd have no problem putting on my roster as a 2nd stringer if there weren't better players at better positions. Yogi Berra ahead of Mickey Cochrane? If you randomly drew 2 catchers from a hat that contained Berra, Cochrane, Bench, Piazza, Campanella, Fisk and I.Rodriguez, I'm pretty sure you'd have a large contingent that agreed with you, and a larger contingent that would disagree with you.

posted by grum@work at 02:54 PM on October 07

Outside of A Rod I totally agree with SI's list. Rodriguez has the numbers but he's a loser.

posted by sickleguy at 03:18 PM on October 07

Rodriguez has the numbers but he's a loser. "Oh, he's great, but the teams he plays for don't win championships, so it's entirely his fault." I guess you think Ted Williams, Ernie Banks and Jeff Bagwell are "losers" as well.

posted by grum@work at 03:51 PM on October 07

I'd bet 100 people would come up with 100 differet lineups on this. Arguements can be made for dozens of players.

posted by louisville_slugger at 04:04 PM on October 07

This is another post that reinforces my personal "Why I Love Baseball" arguments. One thing that stood out in the article is that a barstool is as valuable a tool as a calculator for comparing players. Too bad they don't have (insert name of malt beverage here) on tap at SpoFi. The list is OK with me. Of course I could come up with a few personal favorites, but it would add little to the discussion. The only thing I have to say to Tom Verducci is , to paraphrase a politician, "I saw Warren Spahn pitch, and Randy Johnson is no Warren Spahn."

posted by Howard_T at 05:03 PM on October 07

Someone want to propose a "worst ever" list?

posted by ajaffe at 07:33 PM on October 07

To any of the folks who are eager to Spahn off of this list: Remove him and replace him with the current pitcher (clemens, martinez, maddux or whoever) who has won 20 games every year since 1994

posted by kyrilmitch_76 at 08:18 PM on October 07

Remove him and replace him with the current pitcher (clemens, martinez, maddux or whoever) who has won 20 games every year since 1994 Why? Spahn didn't win 20 games a year for 13 straight seasons? His longest span of 20 win seasons is 6, from 1956-1961. It should be pointed out that during that span, he was as high as 30% better than an average pitcher (ERA+) once, and was actually BELOW AVERAGE (ERA+: 98) in 1960 when he won 21 games. In comparison, Greg Maddux had a 7 year span (1992-1998) where he was at worst 62% better than the average pitcher and got as high as 173% better than the average pitcher (ERA+). If you are hung up on wins, then I'll just point out that during Maddux's 7 year run, he had a .706 winning percentage, while Spahn (during his 6 year 20+ win seasons) had a .640 winning percentage. Also, Maddux has a career winning percentage of .621 over 21 seasons. Spahn's winning percentage is .597 over 21 seasons. So yes, I'd have absolutely no problem taking Spahn off the top pitchers list and replacing him with Greg Maddux (who may be the 3rd best pitcher on my snubbed list). Hey, Spahn's a great pitcher and is in the hall of fame, but he's not as good as Greg Maddux (either 1-, 3-, 5- or even 7-year peaks, or full career).

posted by grum@work at 09:23 PM on October 07

Someone want to propose a "worst ever" list? The list would be filled with either: a) a bunch of players who played less than 20 games in MLB b) a bunch of players who never made it to the majors If you set minimums (plate appearances, innings pitched), or standards (made at least one all-star team, won an award) then you could start trying to compile a list. First player I'd consider nominating? Neifi Perez has somehow racked up over 5000 plate appearances of horrific batting and managed to do that while getting just one Gold Glove. In this day and age, you better be Ozzie Smith's better fielding twin to make up for that limp-noodle bat... How about former MVP winners? Zoilo Versalles managed to win one in 1965 with a classic flash-in-the-pan season (of only OPS+ 116) over Yaz and Oliva, but was brutal before and after that season. How about Cy Young winners? That's tougher, but I might include Steve Stone, just because his one season of fluke "greatness" rests solely on his win total (and he was a below .500 winning percentage without that season, and a below average pitcher (ERA+) even with that season).

posted by grum@work at 09:42 PM on October 07

Except that all wins are not the same. A pitcher can throw 6 innings of 8 hit, 5 run ball and get a win, while another can throw 9 innings of 0 hit, 0 run ball and not get a win. But it is still a win though! You can give up ten runs and still get a win! You can give up no earned runs and pitch a perfect game but your team lose. A win is a win, doesn't matter if you are a bad pitcher on a good team(Randy Johnson this year) or an excellent pitcher on a bad team(Roger Clemens this year) if you get the win you got the win. Wins are what matter and if you get wins I want you.

posted by kidrayter2005 at 10:12 PM on October 07

(I have no idea how Morgan didn't make S.I.'s list.) If Morgan's there, then Ryno definitely needs to be there. Their numbers are similar, with a nod to Ryno. The biggest difference is Morgan played on those good Reds and Phillies teams. Worst Cy Young winners?? How about Esteban Loiaza

posted by t money at 10:53 PM on October 07

If Morgan's there, then Ryno definitely needs to be there. Their numbers are similar, with a nod to Ryno. The biggest difference is Morgan played on those good Reds and Phillies teams. Worst Cy Young winners?? How about Esteban Loiaza There are three things wrong with these statements: 1) Sandberg and Morgan's numbers are not similar. - Morgan drew more walks than strikeouts every single year of his career, except his 2nd cup of coffee in 1964 (6BB, 7K). Sandberg struck out more often than he walked in every season of his career. - In an average season, Morgan stole 16 more bases than Sandberg, and did it at a higher percentage. - Morgan led his league 4 times in OBP, once in slugging, and twice in OPS. Sandberg never led in those categories. 2) Ryno is not better than Morgan, except in Gold Gloves. Almost every single article/book/expert that ranks 2B will list Morgan ahead of Sandberg. 3) Esteban Loaiza didn't win the Cy Young award. His only time appearing in the voting was when he finished 2nd behind Roy Halladay in 2003.

posted by grum@work at 12:21 AM on October 08

But it is still a win though! You can give up ten runs and still get a win! You can give up no earned runs and pitch a perfect game but your team lose. A win is a win, doesn't matter if you are a bad pitcher on a good team(Randy Johnson this year) or an excellent pitcher on a bad team(Roger Clemens this year) if you get the win you got the win. Wins are what matter and if you get wins I want you. Is this some sort of "grumbait" thing? Wins do matter, but they are a factor of the entire team, not just the pitcher. Pitching wins are almost useless in judging ability, since you cannot get a win unless your offence scores runs for you. It doesn't reflect the skill of the pitcher. There was a relief pitcher a few years ago who got out of an inning without throwing a single pitch. He picked off the guy at first for the 3rd out, but his team still trailed. The bottom half of that inning, his team rallied to score some runs and take the lead. He was replaced by another pitcher before coming back to the mound, and his team won. Therefore, according to the scoring rules, he was awarded the win. Here is a test: Pitcher A: 212 IP, 2.76 ERA, 142 ERA+, 270K, 87BB, 1.139 WHIP Pitcher B: 237IP, 3.68 ERA, 117 ERA+, 174K, 106BB, 1.386 WHIP Which pitcher would you like to have had pitch for you? Obviously, Pitcher A is the better pitcher. Better ERA, more K, better K/BB ratio, better WHIP. In every single possible way (except innings pitched), Pitcher A is the better pitcher. But according to your logic, you'd rather have Pitcher B, because in real life he ended up with 10 more wins than Pitcher A. Therefore, he must have been the better pitcher. (I'll leave it up to everyone to figure out which pitchers I'm referencing above.)

posted by grum@work at 12:38 AM on October 08

SI came up with a good list, with some exceptions and omissions. I don't know enough about some of the older choices. The team would be better if you substituted: Joe Morgan for Jackie Robinson Frank Robinson and Roberto Clemente for DiMaggio and Aaron I'd want Bob Gibson over most of the starters chosen. Alex Rodguez gets a lot of unfair heat, but how can SI put him on a 25 man roster of the all-time best. Casey Stengel had a lot af talent to work with, but he knew how to handle it. Let McGraw be his bench coach.

posted by dwhdog at 04:02 AM on October 08

Is this the best homerun hitters leauge or the best all around? Grum I guess that you never seen Roberto play! He and Willie Mays were the best "All around outfielders" that I ever saw. Even thought I love Hank Arron and agree that he should be on the team, with the game on the line and the winning runners on base, I take Roberto's arm in right field any day! It seems that Hank had to play left field in every allstar game that he Willie and Roberto ever were voted to play in! Wonder why?

posted by steelerchooks at 05:27 AM on October 08

Grum, not exactaly grum bait. I just didn't want the entire thread to be one sided about wins. Sort of a devils advocate kinda thing.

posted by kidrayter2005 at 09:05 AM on October 08

Grum I guess that you never seen Roberto play! He and Willie Mays were the best "All around outfielders" that I ever saw. Even thought I love Hank Arron and agree that he should be on the team, with the game on the line and the winning runners on base, I take Roberto's arm in right field any day! It seems that Hank had to play left field in every allstar game that he Willie and Roberto ever were voted to play in! Wonder why? Because Clemente was a better fielder than Aaron (who wasn't a slouch as he did win 3 Gold Gloves himself). But under no circumstances does Clemente's glove make up the gaping chasm in hitting skill that Aaron has over Clemente. It's not just the home runs. Aaron also drew more walks and struck out less in a season. It's also hard to argue Clemente was better than Aaron when you consider Aaron received MVP votes for 19 consecutive seasons. with the game on the line and the winning runners on base, I take Roberto's arm in right field any day! You do that, and I'll play Aaron throughout the entire game to make sure I have lead that doesn't require a defensive replacement like Clemente.

posted by grum@work at 10:47 AM on October 08

I have never seen an outfielder better than Roberto. This coming from a Cub fan. Right field at Wrigley is a tough field to play. Roberto made it look easy. Picking an all-time team over the decades is pretty tough. A better way to initiate conversation would be to pick a team for each decade and then argue over which decade was the best.

posted by wwarrior at 10:54 AM on October 08

Some competition for your team, grum: SP Grover Alexander SP Nolan Ryan SP Eddie Plank SP Al Spalding SP Whitey Ford SP Steve Carlton SP Chief Bender RP Rollie Fingers RP Bruce Sutter 1B Edddie Murray 1B Hank Greenberg 2B Nap Lajoie 2B Rod Carew SS Ernie Banks SS Ozzie Smith 3B Wade Boggs 3B Eddie Matthews LF Carl Yastrzemski LF Billy Williams CF Tris Speaker CF Duke Snider RF Reggie Jackson RF Roberto Clemente Leo Durocher 1B coach Earl Weaver 3B coach Sparky Anderson manager I daresay, they are chompin at the bit. Lot's of fun, great post.

posted by mjkredliner at 12:24 PM on October 08

Ha! Left out my catchers: Roy Campanella Josh Gibson I hope my coaches take it easy on the umps, I will call in Billy Martin as a consultant in that regard.

posted by mjkredliner at 01:14 PM on October 08

personally i think SI did the best job they could, i mean theres so many great players, some were bound to get overlooked. something in there that i was really happy with was they stuck to the stats. Sure Pujols is fantastic now, but what if pitchers start to figure him out in two years, what if he rips that oblique that always seems to trouble him and retires?? Si took the players who showed the best talent, but also didnt pick a lot of todays players for fear of a 'ryan leaf' type incident. It was in my opinion, a fantastic list.

posted by kdrisck at 04:11 PM on October 08

Agreed. My "team" is 4th or worst "best at their positions", but man, wouldn't you love to see 'em play? And imagine the team that could be assembled from the "dregs" of the HOF members? Hard to argue with SI's picks for the most part.

posted by mjkredliner at 04:32 PM on October 08

Like I said I guess that you never saw Clemente play. I didn't say Hank didn't belong, you said that Clemente didn't! Maybe you shouild go check on Clemente's stats. He hit safely in 14 World Series games that he played in, and was the 71 World Series MVP, not to mention 1 time MVP of the NL in the mid sixties, 4 batting titles and and 12 or 13 gold gloves! Just thought that I'd mention a few of his stats! I think that qualifies him.

posted by steelerchooks at 05:22 PM on October 08

There are three things wrong with these statements:?? #'s 1 & 2: So that means being the 'best' at your respective position is solely based on offense? The supposed shortcomings of Ryno when compared offensively are more than made up by his defensive attributes. Morgan simply does not compare if we're strictly comparing defense. Hell, there aren't too many that do. Let's face it, Morgan was the best of his time and Ryno was the best of his. If you put Joe Morgan on some of those shitty Cub teams of the 70s and 80s, he would be forced to hit all the time and some those numbers would not be where they are. Having Rose, Bench, etc. around you makes a HUGE difference in the way you approach an at-bat. I'm not saying Ryno is better or Morgan is better, but the numbers are really close and Ryno is worthy of mention along with Morgan. #3: That's a faux-pas on my part. I'd have to go with the back to back winner of Denny McClain. Same thing with my MVP pick. Wasn't shit before and certainly not after.

posted by t money at 07:00 PM on October 08

I don't think Jackie Robinson has the numbers for this list. I'd trade him for Rose.

posted by bobfoot at 08:28 PM on October 08

It is interesting for discussion purposes but I cannot see how you can compare pre-Jackie Robinson players to post. In fact, I would have to say that before around 1953-1954, baseball was too white for comparison. I also think that relying on stats too heavily is a mistake. Much of the late 60's were horrible for hitters. They even lower the mound, mostly, in my opinion because of Gibson, Drysdale and Marichal. All that being said, here is my "integrated" all time team: C: Johnny Bench: Changed the game with his catching style. Great defensive. Great production for catcher. Only flaw is that he caught a lot for a lot of mediocre, at best, pitching staff. He must should some of the blame. (Has anyone considered what the early 1970's Reds would have been like with even better than average pitching. C. I-Rod. Thought the steroid scandal would ruin him. It must not have been that big a part of his game. 1st. Albert Puljos. Baring injury, he may end up being the unquestioned best at this position. 1st. Eddy Muarry. I didn't particularly like his outward attitude, but he played hard and put up some great numbers. 2nd. Joe Morgan. The best. He did a lot of things to win that won't show up in stats. I loved watching him play. 2nd. Rod Carew. He's one of those if he'd played in NY or Chicago guys. He was a great hitter. Had power when he wanted to. SS. Ozzie Smith. A-Rod, Jeter and Banks have more offense but his defense made up for it. SS. Ernie Banks. Too bad the Cubs stunk for most of his career. He was something. 3rd. Mike Schimdt. Maybe the toughest positon to pick because there are so many good ones Boggs, Robinson, Brett. Incredible offense and underrated defense but him first. 3rd. George Brett. The best hitter of his generation. OF. Barry Bonds. I don't like the guy. I hate the steroid issue. But he was by far the best hitter of his generation-particularly after Griffey destructed. A contact power hitter. I wish he could be judged on a level field but will never know. OF. Ricky Henderson. I don't like him either but he is the best leadoff hitter who ever lived. OF. Willie Mays. The best player who ever lived. I know its a cliche but had he not played so much in Candlestick, Bonds would have to go a couple more years. OF. Hank Aaron. The best under the radar player ever. OF. Roberto Clemente. It was just so much fun to watch him. He did things no one else could with flair. Great, and I mean great, hitter. OF. Carl Yaztremski. I know he was up and down. The ups were just so good. He single handily took the Sox to the Series in 67-I think that was the year. SP. Bob Gibson. He was mean, competive and really would have brushed back his grandmother. My favorite on this list. SP. Sandy Koufax. Saw him in person several times. Short career but complete domination. SP. Roger Clemens. Another guy I don't like but he would be on even if his career was 25% shorter. SP. Greg Maddux. I love the way he pitches. Sad that the Mets probably sent him on his way. SP. Tom Seaver. Great, consistent a winner. As an aside, when he first got to the majors, I thought Dwight Gooden would take Seaver's place on this list and maybe top it. What he did to this talent is one of the a personal tragedy to him and a great loss to us. RP. Mariano Rivera. Game over. RP. The Goose. More inconsistent but dominating. RP. Lee Smith. I don't understand why he isn't given his due. RP. Dennis Eckersly. He even survived grooving one to Kirk Gibson. RP. Trevor Hoffman. No, I'm not a Padre fan. He has been great for a lot of mediocre teams. I realize I'm a little 70's heavy but those are the players of my youth. It hurt to leave Mantle off but injuries made him too one-dimensional. Lou Brock should have been on this list but, to me, Henderson was better. Great topic. Can argue for hours. Sorry for the little blurb on each but, now that I'm getting older (I've seen all of those on the list play in person, most several times) I just got to going. Look forward to comments.

posted by Sloguy at 01:26 AM on October 09

mjkredliner: Your "best of the snubbed of the snubbed" is a damn fine team. Putting Boggs, Carew and Speaker into a game is going to wear out the defences by having them chase after line-drives all day. I think Jackson or Snider could easily get 200 RBI in a season hitting behind those three guys. I tried to avoid putting Negro League-only players on my roster, just because it makes it so hard to judge them fairly. That said, Gibson would have been in my catchers list (ahead of Piazza) and Oscar Charleston would have definitely been in my top 6 OF (probably ahead of Ott and Griffey Jr). So that means being the 'best' at your respective position is solely based on offense? No, it means that Morgan's offensive contributions more than made up for any perceived advantage Sandberg had with his defence. All that being said, here is my "integrated" all time team: Interesting that your integrated team has Hank Aaron, Ernie Banks and Willie Mays, since they played in the Negro Leagues after Jackie Robinson broke the colour barrier.

posted by grum@work at 12:51 PM on October 09

grum, good point about the Negro League players, and, of course, my pick of Gibson is heavily influenced by mere heresay of his abilities. But, I believe 'em. I figgered that all HOF members were eligible, and was desperately seeking a competitive advantage, HA! So, in the same vein, as much as I hate to, I am dropping the "Big Chief", and adding Satchel Paige. I like our chances!

posted by mjkredliner at 10:22 AM on October 10

You guys are inviting an all-time segregated team (players who were never allowed to play in the majors, NOT limited to players in the Negro Leagues): Manager: Rube Foster Coach: Sol White P: Leon Day P: Bill Foster P: Bullet Joe Rogan P: Smokey Joe Williams P: Hilton Smith P: Ray Brown P: Martin Dihigo P: John Donaldson P: Jose Mendez C: Josh Gibson C: Biz Mackey 1B: Buck Leonard 2B: Sammy T. Hughes 2B: Bingo DeMoss 3B: Judy Johnson 3B: Ray Dandridge SS: John Henry Lloyd SS: Willie Wells OF: Oscar Charleston OF: Cool Papa Bell OF: Turkey Stearns OF: Pete Hill OF: Cristobal Torriente OF: Wild Bill Wright OF: Spotswood Poles Of course, I never saw any of these guys play and stats are sketchy. I'm going completely on reputation, and the stories I liked best (which explains, for example, Mule Suttles' omission).

posted by BullpenPro at 11:12 AM on October 10

The battle has been joined, the lines have been drawn! I seriously considered Smoky Joe as well. Great team, BullpenPro. How about a team of non HOF'ers?

posted by mjkredliner at 11:26 AM on October 10

How about a team of non HOF'ers? Do you mean segregated black baseball, or just overall non-HOF team? (Not everyone on my team above is in the Hall of Fame.)

posted by BullpenPro at 11:45 AM on October 10

Overall. Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe need someplace to play! I am sure that another outstanding HOF team or two could be assembled as well.

posted by mjkredliner at 12:01 PM on October 10

Can I nominate Thurmon Munson for the first ballot on the non HOF team?

posted by mjkredliner at 12:07 PM on October 10

OF: Spotswood Poles OF: Cool Papa Bell OF: Turkey Stearns Not only did segregation deny the baseball world the chance to watch some of the greatest players of all time, but they denied the general public the chance to enjoy some of the greatest (nick)names in baseball history. I am sure that another outstanding HOF team or two could be assembled as well. Well, I'm pretty sure Bert Blyleven would be one of the top pitchers (assuming the player has to be retired and eligible for the HOF). Dick Allen and Albert Belle would be top candidates to play the OF.

posted by grum@work at 12:10 PM on October 10

I am only including players who have been eligible for the HOF for at least one ballot. (Disclaimer: this is totally rapid-fire off the top of my head, and I reserve the right to edit later...) P: Bert Blyleven P: Tommy John P: Jim Kaat P: Smoky Joe Wood P: Ron Guidry P: Mike Cuellar P: Orel Hershiser P: Goose Gossage P: Kent Tekulve C: Thurman Munson C: Ted Simmons 1B: Gil Hodges 1B: Keith Hernandez 2B: Joe Gordon 2B: Bobby Thomson 3B: Bill Madlock 3B: Doug DeCinces SS: Alan Trammell SS: Vern Stephens OF: Andre Dawson OF: Jim Rice OF: Dom DiMaggio OF: Bob Meusel OF: Carl Furillo OF: Dwight Evans OF: Babe Herman On edit: Not only did segregation deny the baseball world the chance to watch some of the greatest players of all time, but they denied the general public the chance to enjoy some of the greatest (nick)names in baseball history. Obviously, it didn't deny the baseball world the chance to watch them play. It did, however, deny the baseball world the opportunity to see how they would have matched up against the best non-black ballplayers of their era.

posted by BullpenPro at 12:37 PM on October 10

Another great list, senor. But no Pete or Joe? I would like to submit the following names for honorable mention: Manager Dick Williams P Don Newcombe P Carl Mays P Luis Tiant 1B Dick Allen 2B Bobby Grich SS Dave Concepcion 3B Ron Santo OF Dale Murphy Of Fred Lynn OF Minnie Minosa I fear that Barry Larkin and Larry Walker may make this team soon as well.

posted by mjkredliner at 02:01 PM on October 10

Blyleven has to be there, too, as grum pointed out. And Belle. and my catcher is oh, uh, Bill Freehan. C'mon grum, who are we neglecting?

posted by mjkredliner at 02:09 PM on October 10

Sorry. I declared Pete and Joe ineligible for my list. Forgot manager. I'll take Billy Martin, but Williams is a good call. Ralph Houk, too. Your guys are very good calls. I'm most upset about overlooking Newcombe and Murphy. Grich was actually the first 2B I listed, but I had to bump him as I thought about it. Allen actually isn't first alternate for me at first -- Mattingly is next. Then, maybe, Allen. You didn't list any catchers. I passed over Bob Boone, Jim Sundberg, Lance Parrish, Elston Howard, and of course Moe Berg (you know, just for the danger). And I think Larkin is in the Hall. Walker will have to wait for Dawson and Rice, I think -- which is to say, maybe forever. Playing in Colorado will hurt him.

posted by BullpenPro at 02:20 PM on October 10

Your picks were pretty damn good as well, sir. Especially Hodges, Herman, Furillo, and Cuellar. Fine players all. Gonna be close on Larkin I think, hope I'm wrong.

posted by mjkredliner at 02:39 PM on October 10

Phil Niekro Joe Niekro as pitchers? Phil anyway, or am I way off base here?

posted by Folkways at 02:54 PM on October 10

Not at all, Folkways. A fine addition. I apologize for having bogarted the thread, but, I was just having so much fun!

posted by mjkredliner at 03:03 PM on October 10

We have a lot of lists going here now. Phil is in the Hall of Fame, so he is ineligible for the Best Players Not In The Hall list or the all-time segregated team. He is eligible for the all-time integrated team or the SI team that started this whole shebang. Joe is not in the Hall, so he is eligible for three lists, plus the "Caught Cheating Red Handed" list, which would be equally interesting, to include: Sosa, Albert Belle, Graig Nettles, George Brett... I ran out, but Google found me this. And I don't see where you bogarted the thread. I think it has evolved pretty naturally. It was a very cool post, and I would be surprised if Grum was disappointed with the direction. Obviously, I'm not.

posted by BullpenPro at 03:50 PM on October 10

Rick Honeycutt (pitcher, Mariners, Rangers, Dodgers, A's, Yankees, Cardinals, 1977-97) When pitching for the Mariners against the Royals on Sept. 30, 1980, Honeycutt taped a thumbtack to his finger to cut the ball. Willie Wilson, after hitting a double, spotted the tack from second base. When the umps came out to have a look, they not only found the tack, but also a gash in Honeycutt's forehead -- he had rubbed his face absentmindedly, almost poking his eye out in the process. That has to be my favorite cheat move. Being a so-so sideline basesball fan would one of you knowligable folk enlightin me on what cutting the ball does for the pitcher? not meaning too change the direction of this thread further, im just wondering. Get post btw with loads of info and fun chat.

posted by Folkways at 05:52 PM on October 10

BullpenPro, I admire your standards about Rose and Jackson. The article you linked to contained allegations that were mostly known by myself, but there were a couple of new revelations, (Cash and Otis) and to be truthful, I would like to think they were isolated events, but I am not quite that naive. I can only shake my head at those players and wonder what they were thinking, and ask who else may have done the same things. Either Niekro would be good additions to the lists they were eligible for, though I don't see either of them as "first", or even "second teamers", and maybe, not even 3rd in Joe's case. Folkways, cutting or scuffing the ball disrupts the air flow around the ball when it is thrown, causing it to spin either differently, more, or more erratically, resulting in some of the funny looking stuff that many pitchers, (including the Niekro brothers) were famous for throwing. As it is hard to disrupt the cover more than the raised seams on the ball do without it being plainly obvious, I have oft wondered just how much efffect this actually has. To me, the ball that has less spin is much more erratic, (if you have ever noticed a golf balls flight when hit out of high rough you know what I mean) and this can be caused by using various moist substances, namely spit, or vaseline. In either case, it is against the rules of baseball, although there are several HOF'ers that allegedly threw doctored balls most of their careers. I may not be 100% correct in my explanation, but you get the picture, I hope.

posted by mjkredliner at 11:36 PM on October 10

As an aside, has anyone come across any scientific proof that corking a bat (or, filling it with super balls?) actually increases the distance that a ball may be hit with it? To me, it seems like it would be a very small increase, (on the order of 1% or less) and it seems that it obviously weakens the bat.

posted by mjkredliner at 07:06 AM on October 11

Self-referential self-reference re: corked bats.

posted by yerfatma at 08:38 AM on October 11

Wow, pretty deep in the archives. Thank you for your trouble, yerfatma.

posted by mjkredliner at 05:10 PM on October 11

I wanted to post in the old thread, too. That was one damn fine discussion. Thought it was funny that grum busted out the Grimsley ID as the teammate who crawled through the ceiling to snatch Belle's bat from the umpire's locker room. Goes from being a teammate who'll save you from the man to a teammate who squeals about you to the man.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 04:37 PM on October 12

I wish you had joined right in, TBH. (There are still several worthy players, too.)

posted by mjkredliner at 10:47 PM on October 12

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