The Red Sox imploded before Ortiz's heart condition and Lester's swollen lymph nodes. If they imploded following Ortiz's heart condition, then enjoying their implosion would be mean-spirited. And, sure they have had lots of injuries, but injuries are a part of sports. Some teams win in spite of the injuries. The Marlins are freakin' winning after selling off half the team last year. The Red Sox have a chance of winning every time they go out there, the same as everyone else. They just aren't getting it done. All the other stuff is just excuses. So, I guess you can count me as one of the fans that could care less if the other team has injuries, so it long as it results in a "W" for my team.
Her point is to turn this into a line of reasoning wherein no one can bash the Yankees ever again. Like that would ever happen! The Yankees will always be bashed, the Red Sox will always be bashed, and nothing anyone will ever say will change that. Say what you want about Red Sox/Yankees threads, and all the "Do we need another one" questions, but there's no subject that stirs up this much emotion, currently, in sports. With all that said, I consider myself a Yankee fan, but a baseball fan first and foremost. I appreciate Papi, Manny, Schilling, etc., but I honestly think the team the Sox put on the field this year, outside of those three and a few others (Varitek, Papelbon, to name a few) was inferior. It was in no way even close to the caliber of the team that won the Series a few years back. I remember thinking that the first day of the season, how their lineup was not really imposing at all, outside of the 3 and 4 hitter. You can't send off guys like Damon and Millar, for example, and think you can replace them with just anyone. They were "Heart and Soul" type guys in lineups, much like Brosius and O'Neil were when the Yanks were having their greatest success. Sure, Damon could have stayed with the team, but the Sox should have taken the steps to ensure he did stay. You don't just replace what Damon brings to the table with Coco Crisp! Every Sox fan knew the team would struggle to compete if Manny and Ortiz weren't 100 percent, because they drive that entire team. The Yankees were fortunate this season the players they plugged in when Matsui, Sheffield, and Cano went down all played extremely well, rallying around each other when things were tough, especially with all the criticism involving A-Rod and Randy Johnson. This past hockey season, following the Buffalo Sabres, changed my perspective on injuries. I was bitter after the Carolina series because I felt Buffalo would have won if they hadn't been missing four defensemen. But when I finally was willing to look at it realistically, I came to grips with the fact injuries ARE sports. Every successful team is either very lucky when it comes to avoiding devastating injuries throughout a season or they have guys who step up and help the team continue winning.
Fatty - you just made me like Red Sox fans more. Wicked. Bring it. BPP - I don't know if I could agree more or write it down better. (Actually, the answer to both those questions is no.) How did this, of all FPPs, manage to generate a great baseball culture conversation? In closing: Yankees suck, Knicks suck, Jets suck. Krypton sucks.
I appreciate Papi, Manny, Schilling, etc., but I honestly think the team the Sox put on the field this year, outside of those three and a few others (Varitek, Papelbon, to name a few) was inferior. This is also very true. I liked the Beckett deal when it went down, but from day one it was possible that this team didn't have much depth and had suspect pitching.
Hate away. We're a region of elitist pricks, we have sleeper cells in your towns waiting to show up and drown out your cheers in your home ballpark and we are just plain mean. I can't recommend us either. On top of all that, we've been in the playoffs like 6 out of the last 7 years or something. It's gross and unseemly and other fans should get a turn. That was beautiful.
The Marlins are freakin' winning after selling off half the team last year. And with Hanley Ramirez and Anibal Sanchez from the Beckett deal. Which burns. I can cope with giving up Freddy Sanchez for nothing because I think he's a B level player, but those two worry me. dyams, I agree with what you said. This looked like a rebuilding year, felt like a rebuilding year (ok, not exactly rebuilding when you're in first for a long time) and it wound up one. The only thing different is the Sox didn't feel comfortable calling it that.
Of course it's easy to hate success. Humans have been doing it for centuries. Not to get religion into the picture, but aren't there a lot of Old Testament stories that center on jealousy? (I say that strictly as an historical comment, not a promotion of religion) When the Red Sox, or any other regional team show themselves to be anything less than perfect, the Boston media, the Globe and the Herald in particular, are all over it. It's nothing new. Just look at how the Boston print media treated Ted Williams. So go ahead and feel good, Kaufman. All it means is that you really suffer from envy. If you were to talk about an NFL team that made the playoffs on a nearly annual basis, got to the Super Bowl with some regularity, and finally won one, you would be talking about a highly successful organization. I know the rules are different, salary cap structure and collective bargaining agreements being the chief differentiators, but I didn't hear too many people trashing the Cowboys when they followed championships with down years. Yes, some gloated, but was it not because we envied them?
How did this, of all FPPs, manage to generate a great baseball culture conversation? No doubt! I avoided this thread, for the exact reason holden listed in the first comment. Boy, was I wrong. BPP and YFM just put up two of my favorite ever posts. An outsiders' opinion... I don't really don't have a rooting interest in the NYY/BOS rivalry, I enjoy the games as much as anyother division leader rivalry, but the build-up nauseates me. And I have to admit I'm one of those window-peekers BPP referenced. I listened to The DKM's "Nellie" and got goosebumps, I thoroughly enjoyed the bloody sock. But then I learned all the hangers-on, the folks that only liked them because they were the loveable loser, were even more annoying after they won. So maybe deep down, theres a little feeling of satisfaction that Boston's won't be in the playoffs, but to be honest I'd much rather enjoy the Tigers or the we-don't-want-it-you-take-it N-L Wildcard race, or the damn-you-Girardi-why-are-you-
winning Marlins. This Kaufman character really irritates me for some reason. Maybe it's just that sketch they have of him, with the 90s goatee and the chest hair. Or maybe it's anyone who calls themselves King.
For the record, I've started rethinking my pick of an EPL team and am in search of a group that can give me the Sox feeling about 40 years from now after a lot of misery.
I just spent a minute thinking "Who the fuck is Nellie?" Tessie. Too funny. Tessie, Nellie, whatever!
Holy cow, I'm a dumbass. Yes, Tessie. Her friends call her Nellie? Maybe? Oh my, I'm so embarrassed. Where the hell did Nellie come from?
WOW!!!
Where the hell did Nellie come from? Keith Jackson
I'm having a hard time even watching the Sox play these days. It makes me so sad to see my team falling apart before my eyes. These guys are basically still kids, and they're having to deal with heart problems and cancer--what the fuck?
That reads beautifully, yet I have no idea what it means. You should know by now that that describes just about everything I write. Except for the "beautiful" part. Are you saying sox fans have to take 'slings and arrows' from other fans? That's not hard, and is occasionally fun. Losing in 03, that was hard. Reading this rant/article? Not so hard. Yes, that's what I'm saying. I didn't say it had to be hard. The bandwagon fans are turning on the Red Sox because they're not welcome. That's where the article is coming from. You don't have to hate it, and you don't have to like it. It is what it is. New core of boston fans? I had no idea we had a new core. You're absolutely right. I was wrong to say "new." I should have just said "this core." It just seems new because it isn't wrapped in fluff anymore. Which is a good thing.
Shaughnessy's column today says that the Wells trade is an implied writeoff of '06. Thoughts? (and before someone decides to take my head off, yeah, I know about Shaughnessy, and no, I'm not gloating. It's just that he said it, and my question is, is he right that the Wells move was part of a conscious write-off strategy.)
And, sure they have had lots of injuries, but injuries are a part of sports. Some teams win in spite of the injuries. You're right. They're part of the game, which is why when discussing a teams fate team health definitely shouldn't be ignored. To say 'every team has injuries, some overcome them' sounds great and makes little sense. There is a point where injuries simply become too great. So when the season ends and sports illustrated does their season recap injuries will be a big part of the sox season. Because, as you said, it's part of the game. Discussing a very big part of the game isn't the same as making excuses. but I honestly think the team the Sox put on the field this year, outside of those three and a few others (Varitek, Papelbon, to name a few) was inferior. But that was the beauty of it. The sox had a lead over the yankees all the way to the allstar game (with bad pitching), and yankee fans just couldn't understand it. I constantly read yankee fans gripe that the sox lineup was inferior to their lineup, so it must be luck. How could they possibly be in first? I really don't think fans who put lineups side by side and are bewildered when the more talented team (on face value) loses understand baseball. It just doesn't work that way. All it takes is one well pitched game (even by 75 year old david wells) and an allstar lineup can look very ordinary. Would they have been able to hold it? Come back after the 5 game loss? Who knows. But it would have been interesting. A little more pitching and they definitely had a chance. The Yankees were fortunate this season the players they plugged in when Matsui, Sheffield, and Cano went down all played extremely well, No they weren't. The yankees simply had enough talent to overcome their own share of injuries. Here you go. The bandwagon fans are turning on the Red Sox because they're not welcome. That's where the article is coming from. I guess I just have a different definition of a bandwagon fan. Kaufman just seems like someone who watched a great story from the outside, and after, wishes the star of the story would just go away. The fans who, now that the sox appear to be out of it, are selling their tickets and throwing their sox hats in the closet, are imho bandwagon fans.
the Wells trade is an implied writeoff of '06. Thoughts? Thought: the CHB is a genius. See the citation in my comment above; some of the Red Sox brass saw this year as a rebuilding one all along.
There's another reason for the delight in the Red Sox crash and burn. Boston is a city of haters. Nasty, bitter, unhappy people. A city with a collective chip on its shoulder that hates anyone or anything that's different. The city's motto is "Yankees Suck". Seriously, take a look at around Fanieul Hall or any T-shirt emporium and you will see 25 different varieties of Yankees Suck and NY Sucks T-shirts. Do you think Yankee fans even spend 1% of the time hating on Boston as much Boston spends hating on the Yankees. I spent several years living in Boston. I arrived as a Celtics fan. I left hating every team from the New England area with a passion. Maybe one too many articles about the punks from NY in the Globe or my car getting egged because it had NY plates. If the Sox (or any of the New England teams) played the Iranian all stars, I would have a tough time figuring out who to root for. On second thought, no I wouldn't. GO IRAN!
An addendum: I am NOT a Yankees Fan. I'm a Mets fan. And 1986 was like God defeating Satan.
I am NOT a Yankees Fan Maybe so, it's a redeeming quality, but what you are assuredly is a hater.
the Wells trade is an implied writeoff of '06. Thoughts? One of my friends pointed out, in his blog, that the Sox need pitching now, but need it even more desperately for next year. I think trading Wells is a good strategic move and I agree that it is a sign that the brass has written off '06 - not that they wouldn't be thrilled to be proven wrong.
Do you think Yankee fans even spend 1% of the time hating on Boston as much Boston spends hating on the Yankees. I could go to yankee fan sites and for the rest of the day fill this post with hateful comments on the red sox. You might have been right before 2004. Not anymore. Come join us in the present. Hell, you're exactly what you claim to hate.
Boston is a city of haters. Nasty, bitter, unhappy people. The city's motto is "Yankees Suck". Puleeze. That phrase was a defense mechanism to the Yankees and their fans always being able to point out the World Series thing. Most people are trying to distance themselves from that and pointing out T-shirt vendors in an around Faneuil Hall shows that it may be more of a tourist thing. AND YES, Yankee fans spend at least 1% of the time hating on the Red Sox, the trolls in these tthreads speak to that. Plus, your God/Satan comment doesn't fall far from the tree, despite the fact you like the team across town. There are knucklehead fans in every city, you may qualify. Previously jumping into a Clemens thread and screaming steroids would my first piece of evidence to the jury. btw, if anyone wants a clever, good-natured Red Sox shirt, this is the one. If I could print up shirts that said TESSIE SUCKS, I would. Dirty Water is where it's at.
cjets Please refrain sullying my good name.
The Phillies brass wrote off '06 (and '07) and look how well that's worked out for them. They very well may have written off this year, but let's say they didn't... Would David Wells at this stage in his career have been much help? Cjets: I was up at Yankee Stadium last month. There were a TON of anti-Red Sox t-shirts. I found it odd how many people were wearing them especially since they were playing the Angels.
As for the article... What's his point? He enjoyed being on the bandwagon in 2004, but now that they won he's off? That's point of being on a bandwagon!!! For one game, two weeks, a month you can revel in the success of a team you otherwise could care two shits about. It's also quite possible him and everyone else who road that flatcar in 2004 are all on this current bandwagon of let's laugh at that team that once made me cry...there'll be someone else who's guaranteed to win it this year and in 30 days I can jump on there. The Yankees North comment is what it is. That division has it's challenges and it's not changing, spending money is one solution it, but look at Weedy's Jays. The owned up and spent some money this off-season. Real money for really good players. It didn't work though. So what's J.P. gonna do this year? Spend more? Get more players? The AL East is like being a kid on the outside in high school. Eventually, the peer pressure is gonna get to you. In trying to play with the kids at the top of the chain, you may find yourself doing things you didn't in the past.
it was mets fans like cjet that prompted me to root for boston in 1986.
No they weren't. The yankees simply had enough talent to overcome their own share of injuries. Here you go. Since the conversation in that thread moved toward Lester's serious medical condition -- and the whole Yankee subject was off-topic to being with -- I took my rebuttal to Grum's comment to e-mail. But, since you brought it up... A vast majority of the players Grum listed under "terrible" had no role whatsoever filling in for injured players. Stinnett, Phillips and Crosby -- terrible numbers, never filled-in for an extended stretch for an injured player, aren't even on the roster anymore. Green -- terrible numbers, never filled-in for an extended stretch. Torre has a distinction between those who qualify as "backups" and those who qualify as "fill-ins." These guys are the former, not the latter. Matsui was replaced by Cabrera who, by any measure, is not terrible and has played very well. Sheffield was replaced by a rotation of players: Bernie (respectable), Thompson (good -- not given a reasonable chance for some reason), Long (terrible, discarded almost immediately), Guiel (whom Grum admitted himself was good-to-great). Now, of course, Abreu. Cano was replaced primarily by Cairo, who, despite a very bad OPS, put up 11 runs, 13 RBIs and 5 SBs in 30 games in the 8/9 slot while Cano was out. He was Juan Uribe with speed instead of power, and he played a very respectable 2B. Not great, no. Below average, certainly. But he's the only argument you can make for a dead spot in the lineup from the injuries. Yes, the Yankees seven regulars were probably good enough to lug the rest of the team through the season. The point is, they didn't have to. The long-term replacements did a pretty good job of filling in the blanks.
Bullpenpro, even if I agree with you, and thank you for explaining the yankee situation to me, I still stand by the statement you quoted. The long term replacements filled in the blanks, and did a good job. Fine. Those replacements would help very little in boston. This statement: The Yankees were fortunate this season the players they plugged in when Matsui, Sheffield, and Cano went down all played extremely well is misleading when that person is comparing it to the sox situation. You could say it's the sox problem for putting the team on two players shoulders, or you could say the sox should spend more money, but those are different topics. Basically, I'm not trying to put down the yankee replacements. They did a great job in the situation they were put in. It's just a different situation.
it was mets fans like cjet that prompted me to root for boston in 1986. Two words for you, GD, Bill Buckner. For those of you who might want to bother re-reading my original post, the point I was making was that I arrived in Boston ready to wear the green and wallow in Bird mania. What I found was a city that lives for hating NY. I could go to yankee fan sites and for the rest of the day fill this post with hateful comments on the red sox. You might have been right before 2004. Justgary, I don't visit Yankee fan sites. I'm not talking about rabid red sox or Yankee fans. Again, my point is that the ordinary bostonian HATES NY. The ordinary New Yorker could give a sh*t about Boston. Am I hater when it comes to Boston? Definitely. When you live somewhere for five years and the populace thinks your F'ing scum for being a New Yorker (let's not even get into the anti-semitic thing), you start to hate back. And for those of you brainiacs commenting, how many of you have actually lived in Boston? Try it for 6 months and then tell me what it's like.
Previously jumping into a Clemens thread and screaming steroids would my first piece of evidence to the jury. Look at the size of Clemen's head in 1986. And look at the size of his head now. Isn't that what everyone carries on about with Bonds and Giambi. I think the MLB doesn't want to go after guys like Clemens. Is that not relevant to a Clemens thread, Yukon? Is there some etiquette about posting that I've missed? Next time I'll be sure to check with you before I post.
When you live somewhere for five years and the populace thinks your F'ing scum for being a New Yorker (let's not even get into the anti-semitic thing), you start to hate back. Too long a struggle makes a stone of the heart, that sort of thing? A bit melodramatic. I think everyone's reacting to your tone, which sounds like, "I went to Boston expecting to be welcomed with open arms, but it turned out to be a big city and I wasn't a unique snowflake." On top of that, you're coming off quite the whiner (e.g., the Buckner comment). I take issue with the idea Boston is any more anti-Semitic than any other big city. The Brahmin populace is far too busy hating the Irish and Italians, who are far too busy hating the blacks. Who maybe have something against the folks in JP. Except that was 1970 and it's 2006.
Is there some etiquette about posting that I've missed? Now that you mention it, be sure to check out the guidelines. They're new and will be of interest to you in regards to thinly veiled "Not discussing religion, but am bringing it up anyway" unrelated to anything of the topic rant you went on. Also, born and raised Bostonian, ovah here.
Wells trade is an implied writeoff of '06. Thoughts? I'll tell you what, lbb. In the pit of my stomach I have this weird hugely irrational, completely nonsensical, goes-against everything-I-know-as-fact feeling that somehow between now and the end of September, with a bunch of the regular vets returning in the next week (Varitek, Wakefield, Trot) and Ortiz returning tomorrow plus another weekend series with the Yankees... they're going to string some wins together. No no, stay with me. Stop laughing, dammit. No, I'm not on medication for delusions. They're going to string some wins together. Maybe gain a little ground in either the AL East or the WC... They won't get close enough, but they'll make it interesting, dare I say hopeful, for the fans and then likely hugely crash and burn. There you go. Optimism and pessimism in the very same string of thought.
Too long a struggle makes a stone of the heart, that sort of thing? A bit melodramatic. I think everyone's reacting to your tone, which sounds like, "I went to Boston expecting to be welcomed with open arms, but it turned out to be a big city and I wasn't a unique snowflake." My mistake then, yerfatma, because that was not at all the point I was trying to make. The point is (not trying to beat a dead horse) that I when I moved to Boston I was a Celtics fan. Iwanted to root for them (if you remember the Knicks back then, there was nothing to root for). And was immediately put off by the anti-NY bias. I didn't expect to be welcomed with anything, I just didn't expect to be hated simply because I'm from NY. The thread started as a discussion on why people love to see the Red Sox fall. This was just my opinion, having lived there for several years. On top of that, you're coming off quite the whiner (e.g., the Buckner comment). GD says that Met fans like me were the reason he rooted for the Red Sox in 86. What did you expect me to say? Thank you? BB is an obvious (if overused, I'll grant you) comeback. Maybe Bob Stanley would have been better.
I'll tell you what, lbb. In the pit of my stomach I have this weird hugely irrational, completely nonsensical, goes-against everything-I-know-as-fact feeling that somehow between now and the end of September, with a bunch of the regular vets returning in the next week (Varitek, Wakefield, Trot) and Ortiz returning tomorrow plus another weekend series with the Yankees... they're going to string some wins together. No no, stay with me. Stop laughing, dammit. No, I'm not on medication for delusions. I'm not laughing even a little bit. I seem to be about the only person who hasn't completely counted them out. Yes, they have one hell of a hill to climb, but more improbable things have happened in the history of baseball. I was not one of those who talked about fat ladies and next year. About writing off '06, I do think that management has pretty much consciously decided that they're going to sacrifice this year insofar as doing so will help next year. If they can pick up wins, they will; if they can get in the playoffs, they will, but not at the expense of next year. It's a courageous move because public opinion would be outraged at a blunt admission of same. They're going to string some wins together. Maybe gain a little ground in either the AL East or the WC... They won't get close enough, but they'll make it interesting, dare I say hopeful, for the fans and then likely hugely crash and burn. I'll count them out when they're mathematically eliminated. At the same time, I feel that the Yankees -- and, for that matter, anyone else who would win the east -- should almost be focusing more on central than on their east opponents now.
And was immediately put off by the anti-NY bias. I didn't expect to be welcomed with anything, I just didn't expect to be hated simply because I'm from NY. The thread started as a discussion on why people love to see the Red Sox fall. This was just my opinion, having lived there for several years. I had a different experience. I lived there for twelve years -- in the Fens, at that -- and never experienced being "hated simply because I'm from NY" (I am, upstate, and a lifelong Yankee fan). I still spend a lot of time in Boston (I work for a Boston-based company and am in Boston 3 days a week). It may have been different eras, different crowds, or it may just have been that when I lived there, I wasn't all about being from New York. I was there to live in Boston, which ddn't mean that I'd necessarily adopt every local taste, preference and prejudice, but I had no intention of living in place and being all about where I'd come from rather than where I was. I really enjoyed my time there, and it remains my favorite city. With that said, I do somewhat share your sense of having been taken aback at the quantity and quality of the hatin'. Shirts like "Yankees Suck" and "Jeter Sucks"...I saw that stuff and thought, "Damn, what is wrong with these people?" And while it's possible that that has largely moved off Yawkey Way (I haven't been there on a game day in a couple of years, and there was some suggestion a year or two ago from Red Sox management that they didn't look on such shirts with favor), I still found it...well, indicative of something...that the shirts appeared in the first place. But I don't think it's something about Boston per se. No single-team sports rivalry defines a city.
GD says that Met fans like me were the reason he rooted for the Red Sox in 86. What did you expect me to say? Thank you? BB is an obvious (if overused, I'll grant you) comeback. Maybe Bob Stanley would have been better. if you bothered to read my profile you'd find that i'm not a "he" and i'm a yankee fan. so i really couldn't care less about buckner or stanley. i was just so put off by my 6th grade classmates who jumped on the mets bandwagon and said mean things about don mattingly that i rooted for boston. as summerseve mentioned before, there are plenty of anti-boston shirts going around here (they even have brand new boston massacre shirts this week). there's also a bunch of anti-mets shirts and there used be anti-baltimore shirts too, back when they were good. so boston doesn't have a monopoly on the hatin'. i just think it may not be as noticable in the city itself because all of new york doesn't get caught up in its sports teams like boston seems to. with 2 baseball teams, 3 hockey teams, 2 football teams, and 2 basketball teams in the tri-state area there are too many of them for that to happen. the hatred just seems to be concentrated on river ave and various places on the interweb. i just read that lester has a form of lymphoma. it sounds like it's treatable. cancer sucks when anyone gets it, let alone a 22 year old. hopefully he'll make a full recovery.
Yeah, plus Papelbon left the game last night with a shoulder issue and Schilling will miss his next start due to a lat pull. The hits just keep on coming. Like jg, I don't doubt they'll cut one or both leads to manageable distances, but it's pointless; the team is not good enough. when I moved to Boston I was a Celtics fan. Iwanted to root for them (if you remember the Knicks back then, there was nothing to root for) Uhm, that's bandwagon jumping and picking a wagon just because your local team is in the crapper . . . no wonder you caught some flack.
Next time I'll be sure to check with you before I post. No thanks, I'm all booked up with looking after a bunch of haters already.
Lester is gonna have some of the best doctors in the coutry looking after him. I only hope the media can respect that this is a difficult thing for anyone, never mind some in the public eye...which I think they will. While they have an awful reputation for how they treat athletes in the back pages, I'm sure they'll be hoping for the best with everyone else. What a strange season, to say the least.
Not to rub it in even worse.... but Papelbon was hurt pitching last night too...
Yeah thats what yerfatma said.
Lester is gonna have some of the best doctors in the coutry looking after him. Too bad the Sox tossed Bill Morgan over the side. He could have put some dead guy's lymph nodes into Lester.
Yeah- I noticed that after I posted. I was about to post my comment with an article, but didnt find one- and totally forgot about it. Like 2 hours later, I posted it- and noticed that yerfatma already mentioned it. Anyways, good luck to Lester and those injured.
Also, born and raised Bostonian, ovah here. For real? I thought you were from New Joisey. Or maybe just a big Tom Waits fan.
I didn't expect to be welcomed with anything, I just didn't expect to be hated simply because I'm from NY. If it's any consolation, I don't hate you because you're from NY. I just hate you because you're an asshole.
Or maybe just a big Tom Waits fan. There you go.
rocketman, I love you long time.
Devastating all around, but I've still got afterglow from '04. The first half of the season was great, and I appreciate it for the transitory rush it gave me. Now, I go to my happy place...Curt Schilling, throwing 125 mile per hour fastballs while his foot hangs in tatters from the shattered end of his leg, Big Papi striding to the plate with Wonderboy in his hands every time, Manny actually playing defense, running down balls and making it look easy, despite carrying 17 pounds more uniform material than anybody else on the field. Never before in baseball history... Ah, if they did sell off '06, I'm not going to blame them. My hope is that the boys are healthy, chiefly among them Ortiz and Lester, who finds himself staring down cancer at 22. Love to see both of them back next year, in or out of uniform, happy and healthy. Back to my happy place.
