FanDuel - WFBC

May 28, 2006

715: Barry Bonds stands alone at No. 715. He hit the milestone home run with a two-run shot to center field Sunday, moving past Babe Ruth into sole possession of second place on the career list behind Hank Aaron.

posted by redsoxrgay to baseball at 05:14 PM - 105 comments

Doesn't matter, doesn't count and it never will. As far as I'm concerned Bond's numbers stopped when he started the 'roids. Even if they figure out a way to slip his numbers into the record book with an * or not, they'll never ever count in mine. Ruth is still the number 2 HR hitter of all time.

posted by commander cody at 05:24 PM on May 28

Good point. I was dissapointed when I read this article. Its too bad that this record will have a * or any doubt to its legitacy. Ruth deserves the number 2 spot on the list, but Bonds with or without the steroids, is a hell of a baseball player.

posted by redsoxrgay at 05:43 PM on May 28

Bonds hit 715? Yaaawwwwnnn.

posted by ctal1999 at 06:01 PM on May 28

.

posted by scully at 06:28 PM on May 28

I get that people are angry over the steroids era. Still Bonds is the best ballplayer I have ever seen. At least 7% of MLB players tested positive when the testing was anonymous, yet no one during that time has come even close to having the legacy that he has. I think after some time after we have gained some perspective on this steroid era, people will be able to appreciate Bonds being in a discussion of the best players ever.

posted by bperk at 06:31 PM on May 28

Is Barry Bonds announcing he will never pass Hank Aaron: "Hank Aaron, to me, is the home run king and I won't disrespect that ever." The surest way he won't disrespect Aaron is to never hit #755.

posted by ?! at 06:37 PM on May 28

i definitely agree with you, commander. no matter if he hits 755 or not, i don't think i'll ever see him as a player as good or better than babe ruth or hank aaron.

posted by crembrulee25 at 07:11 PM on May 28

I'm glad this is over. Finally, now the next big news from Bonds is either his retirement or incarceration.

posted by sgtcookzane at 07:53 PM on May 28

Better than Ruth? No. Better than Aaron? A big, fat YES!!!! Bonds is No. 3 on my list of all-time players. 1. Willie Mays, 2. Babe Ruth, 3. Barry Bonds...and don't get started about steroids. Most of that generation used them and Bonds is the only one doing what he did, so if it were the steroids alone there would be others challenging these marks, wouldn't you think? Bonds is the best player of the past 30 years, without a doubt.

posted by donnnnychris at 07:59 PM on May 28

I will not hate on Barry, especially on this day. 715 is a significant achievement, even if Barry's freebasing nitroglycerin between at-bats. And we're all too close to his personality and accomplishments (and there are too many allegations about him still unresolved) right now to place him properly in baseball history. But to say that he doesn't belong in the history of the sport somewhere is willingly short-sighted. Congratulations to Barry on a major accomplishment. (Oh, and being a "fucking steroid user" is better than being a "steroid user that's not getting any action." So, he's got that going for him.)

posted by chicobangs at 08:20 PM on May 28

Who gives a SHIT for #2 Just wait to see if he hits 755 (Wich he wont even if he continues to use steroids) Don't like the #2 ranking? Fine. Consider this: Barry Bonds is #1 among left-handed batters. OR Barry Bonds has the most career home runs by any one player who doesn't hold the franchise career record for any team.

posted by grum@work at 08:20 PM on May 28

Tell me how many of Bonds' homers are due to steroids. We don't know if the answer is even one. We also don't know, considering how hobbled Bonds is now, whether steoroids may in fact have ultimately hurt his career, since the extra muscle mass may have helped to wreck his knee. Spare me the moral posturing about Bonds and steroids. Nobody even talks about Giambi (and Sheffields) and steroids any more, now that Bonds is the whipping boy. If the Yankees win the World series on a Giambi homer, will that be "tainted" too?

posted by Mr. Mack at 08:37 PM on May 28

If the Yankees win the World series on a Giambi homer, will that be "tainted" too? Yes

posted by commander cody at 08:48 PM on May 28

1986: 6'1", 185 lbs. 2006: 6'2", 230 lbs. Sure, lots of 35 year olds have growth spurts. Smells like taint.

posted by Frank Grimes at 08:56 PM on May 28

The other day I posted a link (that Gary took down...booo) in which Rev. Pat Robertson claimed to have leg-pressed 2000lbs because of his miracle, age-defying protein drink (available for a price on his website). Maybe that's what Bonds is on? Either way it doesn't matter to me if Bonds hits another 715. In my book Aaron will still be number one, Ruth number two and Bonds a great big fat (albeit well muscled) zero. Ya can't get your virginity back and as far as this record is concerned Bond's is gone, gone, gone.

posted by commander cody at 09:00 PM on May 28

who cares...why are we even talking about someone moving into second place....do we talk about the guy who finishes second in the presidential race? let us know when you're going to unfairly break the record, til then.....shaddup barry.

posted by tommytrump at 10:04 PM on May 28

Growth spurt?! That's dumb... jesus! We all should know that those figures regarding player height and weight are horribly inaccurate. Pedro Martinez was for a long time listed as a six-footer simply because that's what pitchers were 'supposed to be'- this is true of a lot of pitchers who are 5'9" or 5'10". Even if those two measurements of height over 20 years were scientifically precise, they tell us nothing: people can vary in height over the course of a single day due to compression of the spine- hell, maybe Barry started doing yoga (Randy Johnson did, and he's 6'10"! :) ), and that elongated spine accounts for the 1" difference... :P More likely it's just an error when the original card was made, and/or the ESPN listing was made. Among all the cockamamie anti-Bonds posts, that one is particularly nuts. Oh, and as for the weights- 45 pounds in 20 years is nothing- that's a couple of pounds a year, hardly anything to write home about and basically expected as men age: they get beefier than their slender, younger selves, both in fat and muscle. This is so dumb. Barry Bonds is the greatest living player, and possibly the greatest player in the history of the game. Steroids, schmeroids. When we can insert black players into Ruth's era, or have Ichiro batting against Walter Johnson, or have Hank Aaron put down the damn bottle of uppers and greenies he kept in his locker room... then we'll talk. Now I understand why the long-timers don't post much anymore, and why I read sportsfilter less and less- the quality of comments is just going downhill into silly anti-Bonds-bot territory.

posted by hincandenza at 10:07 PM on May 28

I think people are giving to much credit to the steroids and not enough to Bond's for being a talented ball player. After all ya can be built like King Kong, if ya can't hit a curve ball or a fastball how many HR's are you going to hit. That said, Barry Bonds is a world class asshole, and people would be pissed about him passing the Babe steroids or not. Lets face it, MLB has turned a blind eye to this problem for years. It was not until thay were made to deal with the problem that MLB admitted there was a problem. Barry Bonds is not the only one who was doing it, just the one we hate the most. I have read the MLB rule book and no where in it does it say a player can't be an asshole. So until the rules are changed this asshole will be in the record book.

posted by CB900 at 10:11 PM on May 28

Thank God he finally hit 715. I'm tired of seeing every damn at bat on ESPN and hearing about it. The only thing he has done is become the # 1 all time left handed home run hitter.

posted by dbt302 at 10:31 PM on May 28

1986: 6'1", 185 lbs. 2006: 6'2", 230 lbs. Sure, lots of 35 year olds have growth spurts. Smells like taint Yeah cause we all know athletes and teams always tell the truth about how tall and heavy players are. Sure and Bettis hasnt gained an ounce over 255 since forever. Plus you could be almost an inch taller in the morning as apposed to the night. Most peoples bodies tend to lose composure through out the day. I am from Pittsburgh and have plenty of reasons not to like Bonds. How do we know for sure Ruth wasnt using some type of enhancer. Wealthy powerfull guy like that I am sure there were lots of things he did we will never know about. There was very limited media back then... Now a days an athlete cant fart with out a story written about it... Was it beans or broccoli, cabbage or spinach was it organic.

posted by PGHTOS at 10:47 PM on May 28

Barry would have been probably top 3 - 5 HR hitter of all time if he hadn't juiced. He would easily have been the top player of his generation. His egomaniacal pursuit of the record while denying his obvious involvement with BALCO and ripping on Babe Ruth is offensive. Is he the only one juicing? Absolutely not, but he is in position to break a monumental record and it's a shame that he had to cheat to do it.

posted by Frank Grimes at 11:06 PM on May 28

When we can insert black players into Ruth's era, or have Ichiro batting against Walter Johnson, or have Hank Aaron put down the damn bottle of uppers and greenies he kept in his locker room... then we'll talk. Man, I am tired of people saying that. "Let' see how good Ruth would have been if black players would have played during his era." I read somewhere that Ruth regularly played exhibiton games against the best of the Negro Leagues. Guess what? He batted over .400. Sounds to me like he still would have dominated. Dumbasses! Oh, also a lot of negro players are overrated due to the fact that a lot of them were FARMERS AND HAD OTHER LOW INCOME JOBS! The professional players played it as their job! The negro players either didn't get paid or very, very little. So, obviously they had to get their source of income elsewhere. So my point is a lot of them weren't very good and their stats were blown up because they were facing weak competition. Sorry for the excessive rambling but damn somebody had to finally say it!

posted by the Judge at 11:08 PM on May 28

So, that Albert Pujols. Heck of a ballplayer.

posted by uglatto at 11:12 PM on May 28

Now I understand why the long-timers don't post much anymore, and why I read sportsfilter less and less- the quality of comments is just going downhill into silly anti-Bonds-bot territory. Hal, your excellent post is self-contridictory. Keep posting, man, and you'll overcome the bullshit. Please. And I'm serious, excellent post.

posted by NoMich at 11:12 PM on May 28

"When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour."

posted by everett at 11:15 PM on May 28

everett, are you talking about talking about Slayer Day? If you prefer, you can always listen to the Marshall Tucker Band instead.

posted by NoMich at 11:31 PM on May 28

"When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour." lol

posted by commander cody at 11:32 PM on May 28

I read somewhere that Ruth regularly played exhibiton games against the best of the Negro Leagues. Guess what? He batted over .400. Really? That's pretty interesting. Obviously not as interesting as the fact that Spotswood Poles (Negro League player) batted .610 in those same documented exhibition games against white major league players. Nobody is saying that Ruth wasn't great, but he did play in a segregated (and some suggest diminished) league. Oh, also a lot of negro players are overrated due to the fact that a lot of them were FARMERS AND HAD OTHER LOW INCOME JOBS! The professional players played it as their job! The negro players either didn't get paid or very, very little. So, obviously they had to get their source of income elsewhere. So my point is a lot of them weren't very good and their stats were blown up because they were facing weak competition. Sorry for the excessive rambling but damn somebody had to finally say it! Say what, exactly? I'm not sure I understand your point. You are saying the players in the Negro leagues were worse because they didn't get paid as much? Talent is not derived from money. Besides, most white major league players weren't paid enough to make a living, so they often took jobs in the winter. Many of the Negro league players would simply keep playing in the Cuban winter leagues. The Negro leagues were populated with an equal ratio of fantastic players to scrubs as the segregated MLB. Josh Gibson, Oscar Charleston, Buck Leonard, Buck O'Neill, Roy Campanella, Pop Lloyd, Smokey Joe Williams, Satchel Paige, and Cool Papa Bell were all considered stars, and in some cases (Gibson, Charleston) were considered (by some MLB scouts at the time) among the greatest players in the history of the game, black or white.

posted by grum@work at 12:11 AM on May 29

Amen Grum, No matter what you think about Bonds's non-record, to diminish the talents that existed in the Negro Leagues is a fool's errand.

posted by uglatto at 12:19 AM on May 29

If you are a fan of baseball, and not just there for the beer, then you have to put an asterisk on any of Bond's records. With all of the attention being paid to Bonds about the records and the steroids scandal, more people than just the team PR guy is going to record this guys size: 1986: 6'1", 185 lbs. 2006: 6'2", 230 lbs. For me the last straw was the Giants equipment manager stating that Bonds' hat size had also significantly increased, and we all know it ain't because of his huge afro.

posted by irunfromclones at 01:13 AM on May 29

Congratulations Barry, I'm a fan, have been a fan and will remain a fan. It would be fascinating to see how well Ruth would fare against today's well-trained, stronger and far more focused pitchers than back in his day. Or how well Bonds would play against pitchers who pitched entire games until they had literally nothing in the tank? Or wasn't intentionally walked half the time? Comparing Ruth and Bonds is stupid. They are both fantastic players who played in completely different eras.

posted by fenriq at 02:10 AM on May 29

Giants equipment manager Yeah!! cause I bet there is no way if a Bonds hating reporter slipped the guy a grand or two, he couldnt find something to talk about... there is not one ounce of proof that steriods make ur head grow? what exercise is that u do for the cranium?

posted by PGHTOS at 02:47 AM on May 29

why are we even talking about someone moving into second place Ruth is often discussed as if he cured cancer, and he has been #2 for a while now. Bonds gets 2nd place and now all of a sudden it's no big deal. Grum, your points are so well made, I feel bad for those who even attempt to disagree with you. Chico, I couldn't agree more.

posted by Bishop at 05:42 AM on May 29

Grum, your points are so well made, I feel bad for those who even attempt to disagree with you. Grum always makes great points bishop because he deals in facts and doesn't gets so emotionallly involved that he starts spouting rhetoric. It almost seems like you use topics to bring up your own issues, regardless if they've been mentioned in the thread. This is the second time you've brought up the 'klan' that I've had to delete. It's not good for sportsfilter, it's not good for discussion, and it's not going to happen here. So please, stop.

posted by justgary at 05:53 AM on May 29

Spotswood Poles?!?!?

posted by ajaffe at 07:40 AM on May 29

Spotswood Poles?!?!? Reading up on the Negro Leagues in Bill James Historical Abstract leads one to realize that not only were some fantastic players denied a chance to be appreciated by the general baseball public, but some fantastic names and nicknames were also missed.

posted by grum@work at 07:51 AM on May 29

It is a shame there was such a big deal over 2nd place in the record book.

posted by blademan6946 at 08:11 AM on May 29

Congratu;ations to Barry and the Giants! In the WEST Barry is loved! Talk to the players and see what they say. Please read the posts that are above. The effect Barry has on all of you is amazing. From the Klan to the Negro League, unreal! Have a nice day!

posted by BrownDuck at 10:36 AM on May 29

It is a shame there was such a big deal over 2nd place in the record book. This is the first time in 85 years that Babe Ruth hasn't been in the two top of home run hitters. That helps make this bigger than most other second-best records in baseball.

posted by rcade at 10:53 AM on May 29

Barry Bonds is a product of the steroid generation, with the addition of one of the best swings to ever play the game. Couple the two, you get 73 HR's in one season, and an increase in an ability that should have declined long ago. Without the steriods, Barry Bonds gets no where near 715. However, unless Bonds is found guily of perjury (if he's even tried) his record will, sadly, have no asterick. Personally, I think his lousy personality is enough to earn him one. I am a product of the bay area, and I have no love for Barry Bonds. He is as narcissistic and selfish a person can be. It's a shame he had to be the one to pass Ruth. Go Pujols!!! Please stay healthy and catch that bastard.

posted by kmblives at 10:58 AM on May 29

Of course this is a big deal. 2nd place nothin' - it's a huge accomplishment. It's historically and comtemporarily relevant (given the steriods snafu). I think that's just a cop-out position to take. Personally, I think Barry is obviously a 'roider, jerk and staggeringly less useful player than in years passed. Also, the greatest hitter I've ever had the priviledge to watch. I think a little credit where credit is due is, uh, due.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 11:01 AM on May 29

Yeah big deal Bonds did it with roids. The Babe did it with hot dogs and beer, just think if the Babe and Hank had used roids Bonds wouldn't even be an issue.

posted by Waynek591 at 11:11 AM on May 29

The Babe did it with hot dogs and beer, just think if the Babe and Hank had used roids Bonds wouldn't even be an issue. That's just silly. From 1986 to 1998 (the time period where no one accuses Bonds of using PEDs), Bonds had already won 8 Gold Gloves (3rd most in history by an outfielder), 3 MVP, 7 Silver Sluggers, 8 All-Star appearances and had been in the top 10 in the NL in AVG (2 times), OBP (10 times), SLG (10 times), OPS (10 times), Runs (12 times), RBI (8 times), hits (1 times), doubles (5 times), triples (3 times), HR (9 times) and stolen bases (9 times) and was the only player in history to hit 400 HR and steal 400 bases in a career. Before there were any accusations, Bonds had already created a Hall of Fame career and cemented his legacy as one of the greatest players of all time. To suggest otherwise is to be completely and utterly ignorant of the facts at hand. However, unless Bonds is found guily of perjury (if he's even tried) his record will, sadly, have no asterick. Personally, I think his lousy personality is enough to earn him one. Just like Ty Cobb? Or Ted Williams? Or Cap Anson?

posted by grum@work at 11:36 AM on May 29

He'll get no asterisk, unfortunately. Because you can't ascertain which homers were legit and which he cheated to get you can't expunge numbers from the record book. But there is a judgement day, that is subjective, even for so-called "no-brainers", and that day is five years after his retirement when he becomes eligible for the Hall. I hope the voters do not vote him in on the first try, because I believe that will be the asterisk on his career that has longevity and meaning. It denotes a question mark, plain and simple, that we just don't know what to believe with him. And because it's the writers that vote, it also serves to comment that Bonds is regarded, at least among the media, as an unabashed, unmitigated, absolute fucking cocksucker.

posted by vito90 at 12:40 PM on May 29

unabashed, unmitigated, absolute fucking cocksucker I hear he's pretty good, yes. How was it for you?

posted by qbert72 at 12:48 PM on May 29

Hey vito90, do you think he might have a reason for hating the media? Do you live in the Bay Area and follow him or do you read about him in the papers being reported by the hated reporters?

posted by BrownDuck at 01:18 PM on May 29

And because it's the writers that vote, it also serves to comment that Bonds is regarded, at least among the media, as an unabashed, unmitigated, absolute fucking cocksucker. Or, to some, the easiest article to write when they've got nothing else in their little pinheads. Seriously, most of the baseball writers should get on their knees and thank Bonds for giving them years of stuff to write about without having to do any real "reporting" or "research". For example: the LA-Z-Boy chair. How many different articles were there about how "spoiled" Bonds was because of his big comfy chair? And how many of those writers have updated their commentary to reflect that there are multiple players in multiple lockerrooms with big, comfy chairs?

posted by grum@work at 02:18 PM on May 29

Hey Grum, Bonds Homerun totals from 1986 to 1998 were 16, 25, 24, 19, 33, 25, 34, 46, 37, 33, 42, 40, and 37. Those are very respectable numbers, definately HOF numbers. But how can you not be suspicious when a man near 40 hits 49 homers in 2000, 73 in 2001, 46 in 2002, and 45 in 2003 and 2004? Either Bonds has some magicial secret, or dramatically changed his workout regimen, or he used steroids. I, and many people alike think that Bonds used steroids as a "boost" to hit homeruns. If you think a man edging 40 can hit 73 homeruns without doing anything drastically different, maybe you should rethink your position.

posted by redsoxrgay at 02:37 PM on May 29

although he hit 715, his career will always be tainted. and me myself think well sometimes people get what they dont deserve

posted by galmazan at 02:52 PM on May 29

But how can you not be suspicious when a man near 40 hits 49 homers in 2000, 73 in 2001, 46 in 2002, and 45 in 2003 and 2004? Either Bonds has some magicial secret, or dramatically changed his workout regimen, or he used steroids. Well, as I've shown before, dramatic increases in HR ability by a player in his post-prime years is not unheard of, nor unusual. I also showed before that his 73HR season isn't even CLOSE to being the biggest "freak" season in MLB history (in terms of HRs). But naturally, I'm suspicious of any increase like that. For example, Albert Pujols is on pace for 80HR, and his career average is only 40HR/season. I wonder what he's done to "boost" his homeruns... Nevertheless, that's beside the point I made, which is Bonds was a easy first ballot HOF player before the 1999 season ever started. Even if you were to take the record book and remove all of his 1999-2006 stats from it, he'd still be a HOF player.

posted by grum@work at 03:19 PM on May 29

Grum you will not be able to win this one, people just can"t seperate there dislike of Barry Bonds and the records he has set. If it was not the steroids people would find another reason why his records are not as good. Barry Bonds was not a well liked man before the whole steroid thing came along. Bonds was not the first player to use steroids and was by no means the only player to use em. This does not excuse him for it, but the real blame lays with MLB who turned a blind eye.

posted by CB900 at 03:56 PM on May 29

a lot of negro players are overrated due to the fact that a lot of them were FARMERS AND HAD OTHER LOW INCOME JOBS! I just wanted to see that again. Makes me smile. It's going to be my excuse when people ask if I'm watching the Olympics. "No, because a lot of them work at Home Depot or have LOW INCOME JOBS!!!"

posted by yerfatma at 05:00 PM on May 29

If it was not the steroids people would find another reason why his records are not as good. Barry Bonds was not a well liked man before the whole steroid thing came along. Bonds was not the first player to use steroids and was by no means the only player to use em. This does not excuse him for it, but the real blame lays with MLB who turned a blind eye. Nope, for me it's just the 'roids. I don't care if he's an asshole since a lot of ballplayers are and were. I don't care that his name is Bonds or that he's black. Any player that uses 'roids, if he sets any records or not, needs to be kicked out of the game and banned from the Hall, even if they only used them for part of their career. Yes MLB turned a blind eye to the problem for years, but that doesn't change the fact that these guys knew they were cheating at the time they did it. That's inexcusable on any level. There needs to be a hardcore through investigation by an outside agency and every player found to have used 'roids needs to have every bit of their "contribution" to baseball erased.

posted by commander cody at 06:04 PM on May 29

My favorite player of all time was and will always be Jim Ed Rice. He had a great career, was one of the finest and most feared hitters of his generation. He hit just south of 400 HR's and 1400 rbi's in an era when noone hit 50 a year (except for George Foster barely cracking the mark one year). He also loathed the media and treated them with disdain at every opportunity. Guess what? Because of that hatred he didn't get into the HOF and now is ineligible until his name comes up in the veterans committee. He, like Barry, will reap what they sew.

posted by vito90 at 06:05 PM on May 29

Opps...thorough...this bloog neds a speel chequer.

posted by commander cody at 06:07 PM on May 29

Oh, also a lot of negro players are overrated due to the fact that a lot of them were FARMERS AND HAD OTHER LOW INCOME JOBS! The professional players played it as their job! The negro players either didn't get paid or very, very little. So, obviously they had to get their source of income elsewhere. So my point is a lot of them weren't very good and their stats were blown up because they were facing weak competition. Sorry for the excessive rambling but damn somebody had to finally say it! Somebody had to finally say it? That the African American players in the past were not as good as the white players? I make an obvious crack about some of these thought patterns being racially motivated (see above comment) and I get a stern talking to by admin about cracking a damn joke. Then Grum is left to deal with someone who's point of view is based on Whites being better athletes than African Americans in the past. Gary feel free to email if you want to address me directly. Don't censor my post because you took the crack personally, or you felt like someone else may have taken it personally. Then it seems as if admin is saying it's ok to discuss your beliefs that Whites were superior athletes in the past, but you can't joke about that being a racist viewpoint. Also you state that I mentioned the k**n, but you remove the context in which I mentioned it. I think if you put my comment back in my post and just delete the word k**n, the readers would see for themselves that you have over reacted. Censoring my comment and then letting me have it is just ridiculous. Grum always makes great points bishop because he deals in facts and doesn't gets so emotionallly involved that he starts spouting rhetoric I crack a damn joke, and I'm emotionally involved? Come on Gary, you're killing me. Doesn't matter, doesn't count and it never will. As far as I'm concerned Bond's numbers stopped when he started the 'roids. Even if they figure out a way to slip his numbers into the record book with an * or not, they'll never ever count in mine. Ruth is still the number 2 HR hitter of all time This is emotionally involved, but you agree with this, so it stays. I'll make you a deal, put my comment back, take a vote to see if my comment is more "emotionally involved" than the previous one. If my comment gets more votes, I'll stop posting to your website.

posted by Bishop at 07:14 PM on May 29

How about you skip all the other stuff, and just stop posting?

posted by everett at 07:28 PM on May 29

There needs to be a through investigation by an outside agency and every player found to have used roids needs to have every bit of there "contribution" to baseball erased. On what ground are you giong to do this? Not only was there no rules about performance drugs, its just been the last two years that thay even test for steroids. How can ya make a rule retroactive? By useing steroids the players broke the law, and by not doing anything about it MLB was party to a crime. Your never going to make that stick, so how can ya take it out on one player.

posted by CB900 at 07:46 PM on May 29

But I don't want to take it out on one player, CB. I want to take it out on them all. As I've said in other threads my personal hero in baseball (and probably all sports) is Al Kaline. Still if it could be proved that he used a performance enhancing drug of any kind just to try to build up his stats, even though they weren't illegal when he played and even if he only did it for one season, I'd be the first person in line to have him thrown out of the Hall and baseball altogether. I'd sign any petition to have all of his stats wiped out of all record books to the point of where it would be nearly impossibile to tell he'd ever swung a bat as a pro. For me it would mean he knowingly cheated and through that cheating he dishonored the game, himself and (worst of all) all of my childhood memories of watching him play. Cheating is cheating is cheating and cheating is something that you know in your heart is wrong when you're doing it, not just what's allowed. To me that's unforgivable.

posted by commander cody at 07:58 PM on May 29

Calm down. All this bull$hit keeps baseball in the headlines. Any publicity, good OR bad, is welcome. It gives all who don't have anything else going on in their lives something to blab about. Bla, bla, bla. Bonds is laughing all the way to the bank. While the working people are dragging their a$$e$ to work in the morning, Bonds is lying in bed watching cartoons.

posted by joromu at 08:31 PM on May 29

Cody I used to work for a MLB team and before that I played the game. Not as a pro but just as someone who loved the game. I agree with you that steroids have tainted the game, but I blame MLB and the team owners as much if not more than the players. As soon as MLB became aware of the problem thay needed to be proactive and ban the shit. I mean what good was anonymous testing do, why did MLB fight so hard to keep things the way thay were. If you want to through everyone involved out of the game, lets start with Bud.

posted by CB900 at 08:35 PM on May 29

Well CB we can certainly agree that MLB either fell down on the job or ignored the problem on purpose. Either way it's a damn shame that the young people of today following their ball playing heroes have to wonder which ones of them are real heroes and which ones are out and out cheats. Personally I think the last 10 years of baseball will have a giant asterisk over it I think it's the fault of MLB and the cheating players that have ruined it for honest fans and honest players. A pox on both their houses.

posted by commander cody at 08:43 PM on May 29

Well said, and amen.

posted by CB900 at 08:46 PM on May 29

god, i love grums posts. you must have an assload of time on your hands to figure out/ find all those stats. good job on at least trying to keep the Bonds haters in check.

posted by SavyMcSaverson at 08:50 PM on May 29

I make an obvious crack about some of these thought patterns being racially motivated (see above comment) and I get a stern talking to by admin about cracking a damn joke. There's no stern talking. I'm simply asking you not to go there. If you think a comment is ignorant, there are ways of saying it without comparing a member to the klan. Don't censor my post because you took the crack personally, or you felt like someone else may have taken it personally. I didn't take it personally. No one asked me to take it down. Then it seems as if admin is saying it's ok to discuss your beliefs that Whites were superior athletes in the past, but you can't joke about that being a racist viewpoint Though I disagree with the comment, you're misrepresenting what they said. They were saying that white players were better because they were paid more and baseball was their job, while the african american players were not paid well, so baseball was like a second job. You then compare them to the klan. This is emotionally involved, but you agree with this, so it stays. I'll make you a deal, put my comment back, take a vote to see if my comment is more "emotionally involved" than the previous one. If my comment gets more votes, I'll stop posting to your website. I don't agree with that comment. If you go back to my comments about bonds, you'd know that. Bishop, post here or not, that's your choice. I delete very little content. When I do, as I said before, it's because: It's not good for sportsfilter, it's not good for discussion, and it's not going to happen here. You can email me if you want to discuss it, but there's really nothing to discuss. That comment would have been deleted a year ago, today, and tomorrow. This is not a free speech subject. It's what works best for the website. That's my only concern. (I should have emailed you after deleting your comment instead of making a comment here, however. For some reason I thought you hadn't given an email address)

posted by justgary at 09:55 PM on May 29

Still if it could be proved that he used a performance enhancing drug of any kind just to try to build up his stats, even though they weren't illegal when he played and even if he only did it for one season, I'd be the first person in line to have him thrown out of the Hall and baseball altogether. So you'd toss out about 50% of the players in the hall that played in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s? Greenies are now considered an illegal drug and they were used by a large number of players in those eras (like Mays). I guess you'd toss anyone that used a corked bat (whether it was illegal or not back then)? In that case, say sayonara to Babe Ruth. Doctored a baseball or used a spitball? That's going to be a lot of pitcher plaques being tossed into the trashbin of history. Mr. Perry, it was nice knowing ya. How about players that dabbled in cocaine, marijuana, or other illegal drugs? Good bye, Paul Molitor... Once you start, you can't stop! you must have an assload of time on your hands to figure out/ find all those stats Nah. It's pretty simple if you have a good knowledge of SQL, a copy of Microsoft Access, and download this database.

posted by grum@work at 10:08 PM on May 29

Yep, I guess I'd toss most of the ones you mentioned. Any player who cheats just to build up their stats deserves to be tossed from baseball. Works for me.

posted by commander cody at 10:50 PM on May 29

Look cheating is easy to define. My grandpapa used to say that "If you know in your heart that what you're doing is wrong at the time that you're doing it, then it's cheating and if you know in your heart that it's wrong and you do it anyway, then you were raised by shitty parents." It's easy to make excuses or rationalzations for what is or was allowed or what should or should not be called cheating, but 'roids are cheating and any player who used them during any part of their career should be banned from baseball. Period.

posted by commander cody at 10:58 PM on May 29

BTW grum, thanks for the link to the Baseball DL!! Looks like fun! Now I'll be able to make my friends crazy with BB stats!

posted by commander cody at 11:00 PM on May 29

Yep, I guess I'd toss most of the ones you mentioned. Any player who cheats just to build up their stats deserves to be tossed from baseball. Works for me. "Welcome to the Baseball Hall of Fame. The member plaques are to your right. No, you just walked past them. Come back. That's right. Al Kaline, Cool Papa Bell and Kenesaw Mountain Landis. When you are done reading them, we have lots of memorabilia from the former members of the Hall before The Great Purge of 2006 still available in our gift shop. Have a nice day!"

posted by grum@work at 11:29 PM on May 29

LOL! Works for me!

posted by commander cody at 11:31 PM on May 29

If you ain't cheaing, you ain't tryin'. Always liked that quote. Any player who cheats just to build up their stats deserves to be tossed from baseball. Works for me. What if it's not to build up their stats? What if it's to help their team win? Honestly CC, you remind me of a miss america contestant answering the question "If you had one wish..." with "world peace". It's a nice thought, but really naive. The history of baseball is a history of players looking for the edge. Stealing signs, letting the infield grass grow to help stop bunts, turning the AC off in the visiting locker room. You seem to have been a fan of baseball for a long time. Dirty play was even more prevalent in those golden times you seem to revere. When I was in little league we had a strict game time limit. Once in the playoffs we were late in the game and somehow beating a team that was far better than we were. But they were starting to come back, and our pitcher, the reason we were ahead, was about to pass his innings limit. We had no one else that could hold them. So our coach had us spend the last inning stalling. Calling time to tie our shoes, etc. And we won. And it felt great. If the other team could have artificially made the game move quicker, they would have. Don't get me wrong, you cheat and get caught, you should be punished. And sure, it's a long way from cutting the grass long to injecting crap into your body, but it's still looking to get an advantage over the opponent. Every team, every player, looks for an edge in someway. The only difference is the level to which they will stoop. Under your watch, the only players that would be left in the league would be those who got away with it. You'd have a league of best cheaters.

posted by justgary at 11:53 PM on May 29

Wait cody... you said that you would throw out any one from the HOF for using any performance enhancing drug... even if they weren't illegal at the time?????? That just seems assinine to me... What if next year they decide to get rid of caffeine because of its performance enhancing abilities? should we just raize the hall of fame and start again? How can you break a rule, if the rule is not in existence at the time you could have broken it?

posted by everett at 11:54 PM on May 29

I'll make you a deal, put my comment back, take a vote to see if my comment is more "emotionally involved" than the previous one. If my comment gets more votes, I'll stop posting to your website. We don't do deals. If you want to post here, knowing that comments are occasionally deleted, great. If you want to have public showdowns with admins about why a specific comment was deleted, no deal.

posted by rcade at 12:11 AM on May 30

Well Gary in many ways I agree with you, esp the part about it being a long way from cutting the grass long to injecting crap. Most teams do look for some sort of edge or advantage, but you have to draw the line somewhere and I tend draw it at artifical substances in the body when they are used expressly to cheat, like Bonds (or other players) injecting steroids. I guess in some ways you could sort of understand it if they do it to help the team win, but people like Bonds are doing it only to satisfy their own egos and to prop themselves up to an undeserved place in the record books. The truth is that if I found out my boyhood hero (Kaline) used greenies when he played I'd throw away my pictures of him and, given the chance, would see him thrown out of the HOF. Just one man's opinion. As for the Miss America part well I guess in some ways I have to plead guilty to that too (just don't ask me to join in the evening gown or swimsuit parts). I can honestly say I've never done anything that could be called cheating in sports, at cards or even on my taxes. I'm pathtically honest to the point where it's cost me jobs and even a relationship or two. Can't help it. I'm the type of guy who'll point it out to the waiter if he forgets to charge me for something on my check. Maybe I should stick to Curling? LOL! How can you break a rule, if the rule is not in existence at the time you could have broken it? Everett, I refer you to my earlier post where I explained my grandpapa's definition of cheating. It doesn't matter if it's against a specific rule or not. If it feels wrong, it's cheating.

posted by commander cody at 12:24 AM on May 30

We don't do deals. If you want to post here, knowing that comments are occasionally deleted, great. If you want to have public showdowns with admins about why a specific comment was deleted, no deal. I agree. Gary's deleted a couple of my posts that were in (what I thought was) a grey area, but hey it's not my blog to administer. Though I still think he should have left the one up about Rev. Pat Robertson leg-pressing 2000lbs after drinking his energy drink! I mean talk about performance enhancing drugs!

posted by commander cody at 12:27 AM on May 30

Dude... your ends don't meet... I don't know what else to say.

posted by everett at 12:30 AM on May 30

Dude... your ends don't meet... I don't know what else to say. LOL! You may be right, but as one of the greatest singers ever once said "I gotta be me".

posted by commander cody at 12:33 AM on May 30

You may be right, but as one of the greatest singers ever once said "I gotta be me". Well, at least your honest about your position cc. Elsewhere: Bonds had a chance to change, but passed

posted by justgary at 01:33 AM on May 30

Though I disagree with the comment, you're misrepresenting what they said. Kind of the same way you misrepresented me making a wisecrack as being to emotionally involved. Just for the record, I can't joke about an opinion being offered sounding like something a K**Nsman would say, however this remains. If she's lying, her food stamp card will not be able to compensate the damages done the players' reputation A comment made about the alleged victim in the Duke rape case on this thread, that at least 3 members thought to be a racist remark. How about you file that under the: It's not good for sportsfilter, it's not good for discussion, and it's not going to happen here If you're going to be consistent as your previous statement suggests, why not be consistent.

posted by Bishop at 03:45 AM on May 30

More on 715. Statisticians are wary of giving steroids credit for the offensive explosion not only because their effects are hard to pin down, but because of other changes in the game. In his "Historical Baseball Abstract," published in 2001, Bill James, perhaps the best-known sabermetrician, listed six trends contributing to 1990s offense, of which only one the rise of strength training could even remotely be connected to steroid use. The others included changes in bat design that enhanced bat speed, changes in pitching and hitting styles that increased opposite-field home runs and, especially, a wave of new, hitter-friendly ballparks.

posted by justgary at 04:08 AM on May 30

I don't buy the cheating angle. Baseball has a rich tradition of cheating. It's one of those sports that's just begging for it: Spitters, greenies, scuffs, corks, psych-outs, 'roids, stolen signs, home-friendly infields, backdrops, air-conditioning, and more. Barry is being completely singled out for the history of injustices in the sport. Frankly, it's clear that the media has had a lot to do with it, since people seem incapable of actually applying an iota of rational thought to the big picture. Of course, everytime we have one of these FPPs we have exactly the same arguements and I haven't seen one person change their mind, yet. Hey, we're just like ESPN!

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 08:30 AM on May 30

From justgary's link about Bonds "changing": He could have become a sympathetic character, with a little more humility, a lot more grace, a smile that wasn't only reserved for "Bonds on Bonds." He had one last chance to show America a different side. But he didn't do it. Good. If he had "changed" he'd have been ripped by the media for "faking it", and lost a lot of respect from some of his fans for being a "character sellout". I'm quite fine with Bonds being himself, even if that means he doesn't pander to the media. In his "Historical Baseball Abstract," published in 2001, Bill James, perhaps the best-known sabermetrician, listed six trends contributing to 1990s offense, of which only one the rise of strength training could even remotely be connected to steroid use. I was reading that section the other night and was dumbfounded on how little mention there was about PEDs (if any). It's only been 5 years since it's been published, but it's amazing how much public (and expert) perception has been altered.

posted by grum@work at 09:41 AM on May 30

I hate cheating. I think Bonds has a crap attitude toward the game and the public. Having said that, Weedy's right. Cheating has been an integral part of baseball for as long as the game's been played. Players and managers have always tried to get an edge and the ones who are best at it tend to win. Even those that refuse to cheat know things that are done by others on the team, yet they say nothing. Could you really see even someone like Kaline or Mays saying "Excuse me blue, but I couldn't help noticing between innings that our pitcher has a little sandpaper in his glove. Just thought you should know."? Obviously, there are varying degrees, but if Bud and the powers that be learn that a particular form of cheating is catching on, and they feel that it's egregious and hurting the sport, they need to penalize it to the point that it's no longer worthwhile. Start banning people for life if they're caught corking a bat or doctoring a baseball and you'll virtually eliminate those activities, but do we really want to go to that extreme? For some offenses, maybe. The main hurdle there is getting an agreement with the players' union, but if the problem gets big enough, like steroids has, everyone eventually gets on board. Until then, we have to realize that teams are going to try to get an edge where they can, and as more people get involved, it will escalate until something is done to curb that particular form of cheating.

posted by ctal1999 at 09:56 AM on May 30

I have a couple questions that I don't believe has entered any discussions and I would like to understand why: What percentage of known steroid users are pitchers? And either way, shouldn't the possibility that pitchers are juiced have some kind of adverse effect on homerun hitting totals? I would really appreciate it if someone could answer back, because it seems to me the on going steroid discussions are very one sided...

posted by MW12 at 10:05 AM on May 30

From my very limited understanding of steroids (my only experience is a friend of friend who did the "program") he said pitchers would benefit more than hitters because of the accelerated recovery time associated with steroids.

posted by HATER 187 at 10:29 AM on May 30

What percentage of known steroid users are pitchers? From my understanding, between 33%-50% of the players testing positive for PEDs in the majors/minors have been pitchers. I think there is a website out there that is keeping track of that information. And either way, shouldn't the possibility that pitchers are juiced have some kind of adverse effect on homerun hitting totals? No, because that line of discussion doesn't involve Barry Bonds and he's the source of all evil in baseball, so therefore it is irrelevant to any discussion.

posted by grum@work at 10:43 AM on May 30

Ah! Got it. Thank you (for both).

posted by MW12 at 11:05 AM on May 30

No, because that line of discussion doesn't involve Barry Bonds and he's the source of all evil in baseball, so therefore it is irrelevant to any discussion. Nice to finally see you coming around.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 12:09 PM on May 30

Cheating has been an integral part of baseball for as long as the game's been played. Stealing signs, throwing the occasional spitball, or using a corked bat are a far cry from using performance enhancing drugs of any type. And if you want a true perspective of how most San Francisco Giants fans and writers feel about it, read this: http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/14695797.htm

posted by irunfromclones at 12:38 PM on May 30

Stealing signs, throwing the occasional spitball, or using a corked bat are a far cry from using performance enhancing drugs of any type. In what way? Many PEDs are legal and sold at GNC. What makes this brand of gaining an edge so different from a corked bat?

posted by bperk at 01:02 PM on May 30

Stealing signs, throwing the occasional spitball, or using a corked bat are a far cry from using performance enhancing drugs of any type. In your mind, anyway. So we can be sure to rehash the same opinions we always do, how do you feel about gambling? Also, justgary linked to your article previously in this discussion.

posted by qbert72 at 01:03 PM on May 30

grum: "Kenesaw Mountain Landis"??? You keep Judge Roy Bean and don't leave in Luis Aparicio? You're killing me.

posted by ?! at 01:58 PM on May 30

grum: "Kenesaw Mountain Landis"??? You keep Judge Roy Bean and don't leave in Luis Aparicio? Well, I'm pretty sure I heard that someone saw Aparicio looking at a catcher's sign one time, so he's out. Kaline gets in because of the hero worship of CC. Bell gets in because his great nickname overrides any and all negative aspects he might have. Landis gets in because he'd be all for a great purge of the Hall.

posted by grum@work at 02:24 PM on May 30

In what way? Many PEDs are legal and sold at GNC. What makes this brand of gaining an edge so different from a corked bat? I don't have a problem with a legal diet supplement if you need that in place of real talent. A corked bat? It's just lower on the scale of cheating. It really does not help your batting, but there is always some idiot who will try. Gambling? I don't care as long as you aren't gambling on your own team while still in a position to change the outcome of the game.

posted by irunfromclones at 02:47 PM on May 30

Kaline gets in because of the hero worship of CC. Bell gets in because his great nickname overrides any and all negative aspects he might have. Landis gets in because he'd be all for a great purge of the Hall. LOL! I don't always agree with you on some threads grum, but I sure can't fault your logic or way with words.

posted by commander cody at 04:02 PM on May 30

Of course, everytime we have one of these FPPs we have exactly the same arguements and I haven't seen one person change their mind, yet. I don't know. Of course, you're right, but I've had to rethink my position. Grum does a good job pointing out all the inconsistencies when it comes to bonds. I still think he was into steroids pretty heavy. And I don't think he's that great a guy. But it may also be he's socially inept. Sure, the media ran with the story, but bonds gave them a lot of ammo also. But I also believe this was a large, prevalent problem for a period of time, and bonds was simply the best player in that period of time to use steroids. The whole asterisk thing is stupid. I think when it comes to bonds records it should just be noted the era he lived in, which includes steroids, just as ruth played in an era without great african american players. If a fan, on a personal level, doesn't give bonds his due, that's his choice. But I don't think baseball as a whole should do the same.

posted by justgary at 05:05 PM on May 30

As an aside to those who wondered why there wasn't any fuss when Bonds passed Ruth. Where were you on June 10, 1972? That's the day Henry Aaron moved into second place for HRs lifetime. I don't think MLB executives did any more for Aaron that game than they did for Bonds when he moved into second.

posted by ?! at 06:34 PM on May 30

Calm down. All this bull$hit keeps baseball in the headlines. Any publicity, good OR bad, is welcome... posted by joromu at 8:31 PM CDT on May 29 Yeah, all that talk baseball generated from August 11, 1994 to April 25, 1995 really paid off. Nah. It's pretty simple if you have a good knowledge of SQL, a copy of Microsoft Access, and download this database. I'm mulling over how responsible this post is. Stats don't kill people. People using stats kill people. Grum may have just entered into some kind of baseball arms dealing. (Coming up: playing off the expression "baseball arms dealing," a critique of John Hart, and more, right after this.) ruth played in an era without great african american players. This gets brought up a lot when comparing eras and measuring Ruth's accomplishments. There were also only 8 American League teams during Ruth's career. While baseball's integration started in 1947, it wasn't until 1959 that every team had a black player. By 1962, MLB had added four teams. It's impossible to know what baseball's expansion growth would have been if it had never been segregated -- Ruth might have faced more good pitchers, but he might have faced more not-so-good pitchers, too. Just adding more punctuation to the argument against comparing across eras.

posted by BullpenPro at 06:39 PM on May 30

Where were you on June 10, 1972? My parents hadn't even met yet. Thus, I can bitch. Hooray!

posted by jerseygirl at 06:51 PM on May 30

Where were you on June 10, 1972? My parents hadn't even met yet. Thus, I can bitch. Hooray! Oh great! I was already feeling old because of the upcoming big five-oh, but now I feel ancient! Thanks alot jerseygirl!

posted by commander cody at 06:56 PM on May 30

Oh, also a lot of negro players are overrated due to the fact that a lot of them were FARMERS AND HAD OTHER LOW INCOME JOBS! The professional players played it as their job! The negro players either didn't get paid or very, very little. So, obviously they had to get their source of income elsewhere. So my point is a lot of them weren't very good and their stats were blown up because they were facing weak competition. Sorry for the excessive rambling but damn somebody had to finally say it! Somebody had to finally say it? That the African American players in the past were not as good as the white players? I admit, that came out wrong. I in no way meant to say that white players are better than black players. What I meant to say is that a lot of black players stats aren't as good as they seem because they were facing low caliber type players. I mean the guys in the majors at the time played it as their JOB! Some black players played in the Negro leagues, but at one time or another worked as something else. I mean if you played in the majors and somebody else was a part time player and say they worked at a store or something, don't tell me that the major league player wouldn't easily kick the other player's ass. Yeah, you know you agree. But that's not to say their weren't black players that couldn't compete with guys like Ruth! One of my favorite negro players happen to be Satchel and I know for a fact he would have had his share of pitching records if he originally pitched in the majors. But what I don't like, is everybody saying "Oh, if black players had played with Ruth and all those guys, they wouldn't be anywhere near as good!" HELLO, it's called talent, dumbasses! As you can tell, I'm really touchy when it comes to this kind of subject. And to all you Bonds lovers up there, shut the hell up! It's obvious to me you guys by trying to point out negative things about players in the past, in reality are really obsessed with Bonds cheating ass!

posted by the Judge at 08:19 PM on May 30

By the way, I found a link to a page that shows how Ruth did against some negro teams. It says a ton of interesting stuff including how Connie Mack said that if you took Wagner and Lloyd and put them in a bag, whoever you drew of the two, you couldn't lose.

posted by the Judge at 08:46 PM on May 30

What I meant to say is that a lot of black players stats aren't as good as they seem because they were facing low caliber type players. Can you give us an example of the kind of statistic to which you are referring? Some black players played in the Negro leagues, but at one time or another worked as something else. I mean if you played in the majors and somebody else was a part time player and say they worked at a store or something, don't tell me that the major league player wouldn't easily kick the other player's ass. What your point is, exactly, is fuzzy, so I will address it as well as I can: for a very long time, Major League players did have second jobs. (Early in his career, Babe Ruth worked at his father's bar in the off-season.) The Negro Leagues were, indeed, professional leagues, and the players were paid a salary. Professional baseball players today are better than 99% of all store clerks (according to Elias Sports Bureau). There are a few clerks who are better pitchers than Victor Zambrano. By the way, I found a link to a page that shows how Ruth did against some negro teams. If you could post that link, that would be cool.

posted by BullpenPro at 09:00 PM on May 30

[THIS THREAD IS CLOSED TO ORIGINAL THOUGHTS]

posted by yerfatma at 06:02 AM on May 31

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