FanDuel - WFBC

July 11, 2005

Another player goes down by MLB's testing program.: Now the third major leaguer to go down from the testing program, but the players are saying its just a mistake.....Should the MLB up it to a 50 game ban for one positive test?

posted by gregy606 to baseball at 01:40 PM - 51 comments

I think if they are going to make it 50 games, then the fans have a right to know if its just some substance they possibly took in a protien shake, or if the player is using a substance like the cream, or clear. Even though it doesn't sound right, I want to know how badly these guys are cheating, whether they're making themselves into musclebound freaks (like Bonds or Giambi) or whether these guys are MAYBE accidentally putting the wrong things in them.

posted by gregy606 at 01:52 PM on July 11

MLB better do something or the Government will.

posted by dbt302 at 01:53 PM on July 11

what the fuck? his suspension can run concurrently with his DL stint?

posted by goddam at 02:05 PM on July 11

Yea thats a bunch of bullshit.... Its just another way selig has made it just a little easier to cheat.

posted by gregy606 at 02:10 PM on July 11

Not only can DL time and suspension time coincide, the all-star break also counts as suspension time.

posted by cl at 02:29 PM on July 11

What can you say, Bud Selig is a hardass disciplinarian.

posted by jerseygirl at 02:33 PM on July 11

I am so sick and tired of these guys cheating their way through. I don't care why they think they are doing it. Fact is, kids see this shit and think it's ok to do themselves. How stupid are these people anyway? They know they are going to be tested and continue to use it anyway. Maybe there should be a new requirement to being a professional sports star which states your IQ needs to be higher than a rocks to participate. I myself think and believe in the one strike rule : Get caught once, and your ass is out. If you get caught doing drugs at a "real" job, you get fired. So why is it so easy to make this mistake and get away with it? Kids are seeing this shit!!!

posted by melcarek69 at 02:37 PM on July 11

You know, the more I think about it, the less I care about steroids. 20 years ago, wrestling went from being 90% pre-scripted acting to 100% pre-scripted acting, and the fakeness and artificial nature of the whole charade stopped being an issue. Everyone was able to enjoy pro wrestling without any guilt, and the sport mushroomed in popularity. (The WWE claims to have steroid testing now, but, yeah, whatever.) Maybe baseball is on that road. Neither side in this debate seems terribly interested in actually creating a workable solution to this "problem," and I'm getting the distinct impression that everyone concerned is enjoying the spotlight, no matter how negative or how much they may protest otherwise. If the owners, the players or the friggin' government (and I'm so glad the government has time on their hands for stuff like this) really wanted this to go away, they'd close a door to a boardroom and bang out a policy. That happens all the time for other issues. I just don't think anyone involved has an interest in "solving" the steroid "problem." Also: I don't care about "the children." If they're learning from pro athletes more than they're learning from their parents, that's not Bud Selig's problem, or Barry Bonds' or Tom Delay's or anyone else's.

posted by chicobangs at 02:58 PM on July 11

People we all know this will keep happening, Even if the League or the government step there will always be people thinking they can beat the system. But as you see most of the people who are getting busted are fairly young players trying to get that extra edge. All these people blaming Players or sports athletes in general for there kids using the Juice are idiots. The drive for people to be the best in what they do will use them. Yeah we all know the side effects of this stuff but they don't care, if it means a free ride in college or that million dollar contract in the pros. So blaming it on the players is ubsurd. Yeah i hate them using it but at least they are getting caught now though.

posted by Astroheat442 at 03:26 PM on July 11

If you think that the sport is'nt taking it on the chin,get a Becketts Baseball Card Price book. Since Balco came about the price of baseball cards have dropped arouind 20%...Bonds rookie card has dropped even further.. I personally hav'nt bought one this year as I fear it'll continue to decline. Prior to Balco my collection was worth $50k, in this market its down to the point that I can't sell them... Thank you Barry.. Selig is a joke and personally I hope the government takes over testing and punishment totally and will consiter jail time for mulitiple infractions... The last I heard it was a felony..

posted by maclmn at 03:49 PM on July 11

What I don't understand is why this guy would want to appeal. My understanding is that he won't have to server the suspension until after the appeal runs its course but, by then, his DL stint and all star game will be over... Better to pay the 10-day suspension now, which won't cost him anything, and then forget about it. Am I missing something here?

posted by gloglu at 03:50 PM on July 11

melcarek69, I have to quibble with one point: Yeah, if you get caught using drugs at a "real" job, your ass is fired, but you're not banned from the entire INDUSTRY...

posted by Venice CA at 03:54 PM on July 11

The baseball card business is not the baseball business. Cards were grossly inflated in value for decades before the bottom began to fall out of the market. The rise and fall of Balco and baseball cards are only tangentially related. I wouldn't tie them too closely.

posted by chicobangs at 04:09 PM on July 11

Your right, you don't get banned from the entire industry. But the history is recorded in records. If a team in another country wants to take a chance on a person who needs to cheat to be good, then I am sure Japan, Mexico Domincan Republic or the lil ole bush league can take a chance on them. They are also the "industry". As far as the kids chicobangs, these people you mentioned should care. After all, once again it is us the fans who make their jobs possible. Kids are every bit a part of that mix. A kid from birth to adulthood look to adults for direction. While I am more into believing Firemen and Servicemen are true heroes in this world, kids find hero worship in any place they can find it, including and most of all pro sports. It is an adults resposibility to show something that compares to smarts with the choices We all make. But being a father myself, this is an opinion. I've also been in the medical field in the past and have seen what all this crap can do to anyone. I am sorry you don't see it that way.

posted by melcarek69 at 04:20 PM on July 11

This suspension cant be overturned or held up by appeal. Jaun Rincon tried that. The appeal is to clear their name after the fact which aint gonna happen. The Dude right now is on the DL but with the Suspension he doesnt get paid, which in the end is a big factor of the punishment. Rincon's appeal went nowhere and niether will this one.---

posted by daddisamm at 04:33 PM on July 11

I would tie them somewhat closely, Chico. I own a sports collectible store and just about every baseball buyer I have has at least cut their spending (and some have completely quit and gone in other directions). Nearly every one of them has expressed disgust with the steroids situation. The market has been grossly inflated for some time, but the steroids issue is not what has killed the demand for 1990 Donruss boxes -- printing them at the same rate as Charmin did. New stuff is suffering because of the distrust of the players today and the records they set.

posted by wfrazerjr at 05:09 PM on July 11

I own a sports collectible store and just about every baseball buyer I have has at least cut their spending (and some have completely quit and gone in other directions). Nearly every one of them has expressed disgust with the steroids situation. Did the same thing happen when Pete Rose was thrown out of baseball? Or when all those MLB players got caught up in that cocaine scandal in the 1980s? Those all happened BEFORE the big card boom of the 1990s. New stuff is suffering because of the distrust of the players today and the records they set. I also think the new stuff is suffering because everyone has realized how inflated the current market was in the first place, and they realize it's not worth getting into any more. If everyone is collecting the same thing, it makes it very hard to sell them to someone... When the really rare cards (pre-1970) start selling for 1/2 the price they were before, that's when you've got a problem.

posted by grum@work at 07:57 PM on July 11

wfrazerjr: What percentage of your customers are kids? I'm just curious if kids still buy baseball cards, or is it a rare event?

posted by grum@work at 07:58 PM on July 11

Lets face it. Bud has no clue how to run MLB. The entire Kenny Rogers situation is proof of that. Not to mention the Government raking him over the coals. Get him out of there and elect someone with balls.

posted by dbt302 at 09:40 PM on July 11

I'd say wfrazerjr is right, if bonds wasnt caught up in this scandal, barry bonds cards would be skyrocketing in price considering most people expect him to break the home run record. Dont forget MLB had to abandon a giant campaign to plug bonds surpassing the record. And all of this clearly has a trickle down effect with the numerous other player suspected of using steriods, making any stats not credible. Cards from the 1970's aren't going to see this hit because the players from that era are not being accused of anything near so substancial as current players are.

posted by gregy606 at 12:21 AM on July 12

Sad too see an Indians player use such poor judgement, but i think a lot of these latin guys just don't know what they're taking.

posted by TheTribe at 01:46 AM on July 12

I always thought Bob Costas would make a great commish.

posted by geekyguy at 03:55 AM on July 12

I always though Bob Costas would make a good punching bag.

posted by Samsonov14 at 04:46 AM on July 12

I always thought Bob Costas would make a good Munchkin.

posted by grum@work at 07:02 AM on July 12

I always thought Bob Costas was a Munchkin. He lives under the stadium in a house made of apples.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 08:15 AM on July 12

Before everyone starts beating this guy over the head, do we know exactly just what "substance" was abused? What are the other substances on the list? Why don't they publish what was abused? It can't be any more or less embarrassing than anouncing the suspension. Knowing the MLB it could be vitamin C!?

posted by volfire at 09:13 AM on July 12

wfrazerjr: What percentage of your customers are kids? I'm just curious if kids still buy baseball cards, or is it a rare event? That percentage would be exactly zero. Of course, I'm in Barrie, Ontario, so the kids here gravitate toward hockey, but in the absence of the NHL this season, they've moved to -- basketball. They aren't dumb, though. Not one of them is a Raptors fan. By the way, Volfire? Great point. I don't know what he took, and I strongly suspect he may not either. I'd like to see the player gets the appeals process privately before it comes out in the press.

posted by wfrazerjr at 09:27 AM on July 12

Sad too see an Indians player use such poor judgement, but i think a lot of these latin guys just don't know what they're taking. That's an odd thing to say.

posted by dusted at 09:38 AM on July 12

That's an odd thing to say. I don't think so. Many of the latin players have a language barrier, and not enough effort has gone into clarification of what is and isn't acceptable with these players OR with sports officials in their home countries. Also, local testing that could spot potential problems isn't done in those countries because the cost is prohibitive for them. Perhaps MLB could invest a bit more on education and a bit less on hammers.

posted by Scottymac at 09:58 AM on July 12

What are the other substances on the list? Why don't they publish what was abused? It can't be any more or less embarrassing than anouncing the suspension. Knowing the MLB it could be vitamin C!? It's a banned substance, and they might not be allowed (because of the agreement with the MLBPA) to release that exact information to the public. And get used to not knowing things like this. Given today's litigious society, we might be reaching a point where a player's injury might be listed as "upper body" or "lower body" every time. Releasing medical information to the public without the player's consent is against the law in many states/provinces. If a player doesn't want people to know the results of an MRI, he can simply refuse to have it released.

posted by grum@work at 12:24 PM on July 12

And before I accidentally chopped off the last part... And the results of drug test might fall under that same category. The league can announce a player has been suspended for using a banned substance, but they probably can't reveal exactly what the substance was without his permission.

posted by grum@work at 12:25 PM on July 12

Then given that fact, how can politicians lives be brought into the limelite the way they are? If someone loses an election, why would he not be able to sue if he used an ilegal substance? Or if you did not get a job because of past drug use? What gives the MLB the right to determine what is banned and what is not? Like I said before it could be vitamin C.

posted by volfire at 12:32 PM on July 12

What are you talking about? The MLB is an employer and, as such, has the right to decide what rules people under their employ have to adhere to. While that power has limits, I'd say an athletic league has every right to control the figurative playing field.

posted by yerfatma at 12:45 PM on July 12

And it might not be Vitamin C, but it could be some kind of OTC antihistamine, or something along those lines. Much of those straightforward pharmaceuticals can and do trigger positives, either by accident or design. (And frazer, thanks for the insight. You took my erroneous guess and added some sorely-needed facts and experience.)

posted by chicobangs at 12:47 PM on July 12

straight from the bluegrass state... The point made about the kids learning more from these athletes than their parents is EXACTLY right. It is no different than blaming a violent movie for kids shooting up their school, REDICULOUS... these kids are looking for direction and if and when they go the wrong way, it's a sure bet that their parents are not a factor in their lives. The "latin" players, or any international players need to educate THEMSELVES as to what the rules are and what they are putting into their bodies. If they are smart enough to figure out that failure to comply with the rules could destroy their career, then by god they should be smart enough to figure out what the hell they are ingesting. IGNORANCE to the law is no excuse. If they wanted to understand all of the rules clearly and completely, then they should take it upon themselves to do so.

posted by playball9 at 01:24 PM on July 12

"I think if they are going to make it 50 games, then the fans have a right to know if its just some substance they possibly took in a protien shake, or if the player is using a substance like the cream, or clear. Even though it doesn't sound right, I want to know how badly these guys are cheating, whether they're making themselves into musclebound freaks (like Bonds or Giambi) or whether these guys are MAYBE accidentally putting the wrong things in them."

posted by gregy606 at 01:42 PM on July 12

If someone loses an election, why would he not be able to sue if he used an ilegal substance? I have no idea what point you are trying to make here. Is one politician suing another politician for using a banned substance in an election? Or is the politician suing the press because he used a banned substance in an election? The MLB is an employer and, as such, has the right to decide what rules people under their employ have to adhere to. While that power has limits, I'd say an athletic league has every right to control the figurative playing field. Addendum: they can't assign arbitrary rules to the employment of the players. They have to get agreement from the player's union for the groundwork of those rules (collective bargaining agreement). This drug testing (and how it is handled) was agreed upon by the union (including withholding information about which drug was found in the testing). volfire: if you honestly believe that the union would agree to have their players suspended for using vitamin C, then I don't know where to go from there. The union knows the list of banned substances (and I'm pretty sure the list has also been printed by the media before), so it isn't going to be something silly. I think if they are going to make it 50 games, then the fans have a right to know if its just some substance they possibly took in a protien shake, or if the player is using a substance like the cream, or clear. But that's the problem. Most P.E.D. tests aren't for the drug themselves, but for: a) elevated amounts of naturally produced substances (testosterone being one example) b) masking agents So if a player comes up "positive" for a drug test, they can almost always attempt to use the excuse "I didn't deliberately take this substance.", and there is (rarely) any way to prove him wrong (except by pointing out they have a testosterone level 17x greater than a normal person, for example). It's like testing positive for opiates. A person could (lamely) claim that it was from the 15 poppy-seed bagels they had the day before.

posted by grum@work at 04:29 PM on July 12

even good parents struggle with making sure their kids hear the right message. we are very involved in our son's life, but we still have to compete with the music and sports stars, and the kid's peers who aren't raised as well. my son really liked baseball in general and bonds in particular, but the steroids and barry's attitude the last few months has all but killed the sport for him. he has not bought a single baseball card this season, and doesn't even look at them any more. I was raised in another era when baseball was America's pastime, and not just entertainment. As kids we went to see legends of the game when all they abused was the baseball. Part of the reason for going was to watch how the managers and players used the strategy of the game play as a team. Now it's all about going to be entertained by offensive fireworks, and seeing how many beers and garlic fries you can choke down in 3 hours. It's just another excuse to party hard for most of the "fans". America's pastime has lost it's purity, it's direction, and it's integrity. It has been reduced to nothing but a lot of overpaid and over rated entertainers who have no loyalty to the game, their team, or their fans. Entertainers who will stop at nothing to keep that big paycheck. You guys can have the state of the art ballparks, pay a premium price for your tickets, drink those 8 buck beers and chew on the 10 dollar hot dogs to watch spoiled rich guys who would be happy to sell you their autograph. But don't call it baseball.

posted by irunfromclones at 06:43 PM on July 12

I was raised in another era when baseball was America's pastime, and not just entertainment. As kids we went to see legends of the game when all they abused was the baseball. Part of the reason for going was to watch how the managers and players used the strategy of the game play as a team. It's funny how people have been saying this for, hmmm, 70 years now? 1935 - "I remember when players weren't paid more than the president, didn't hit all these home runs, and sure as heck didn't drink all that alcohol after the game. And managers these days do nothing but send out these big sluggers. What happened to the good old days where it was nothing but singles, doubles and triples?" 1975 - "I remember when players weren't paid more than the movie stars, didn't hit all these home runs, and sure as heck didn't use all those amphetamines before the game. And managers these days do nothing but send out these big sluggers. What happened to the good old days when pitchers had ERAs under 2.00?" 1995 - "I remember when players weren't paid more than small nations, didn't hit all these home runs, and sure as heck didn't use all that marijuana and cocaine in the parties afterwards. And managers these days do nothing but send out the big sluggers. What happened to the gold old days when players rarely got 50 home runs?" You guys can have the state of the art ballparks, pay a premium price for your tickets, drink those 8 buck beers and chew on the 10 dollar hot dogs to watch spoiled rich guys who would be happy to sell you their autograph. But don't call it baseball. All that stuff you mentioned: not baseball. Pitching, hitting, running and throwing? That's baseball. That's barely changed (except that players do it better now than they ever have before), and it's what they are doing between the lines that I enjoy watching. If you cared less about the stuff outside the lines, you might enjoy the game more.

posted by grum@work at 07:39 PM on July 12

You forgot: 1994 - "I remember when the players used to play in the World Series at the end of the MLB season..."

posted by chris2sy at 11:31 PM on July 12

Actually, the beers are around $6 and the hotdogs about $4. Sure, it's overpriced - but no one is paying $10 for a hot dog so let's not invent reasons to dislike the MLB when so many actually exist. Come to think of it - at the Skydome you can see a game for $2 on Tuesdays. Seats aren't the best, but I doubt there's a cheaper ticket in town. Hey irunfromclones - you should hook up with one of your local minor league teams - no big stadiums, staff, amenities, clean bathrooms, clean food or any of the other annoying trappings of the big leagues. It's just baseball played by bonus babies and also-rans.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 08:54 AM on July 13

i could care less about what a major leaguer does on his personal time, unless it has a direct effect on the game. and it was a better game before it became nothing but entertainment. you can nitpick all you want about the prices i quoted, but you missed the point completely. i do go and see a lot of sacramento rivercats games, where the bathrooms are clean, the food is as good as sbc park and cheaper, the seats are great, and the players have also-ran into the starting rotation for the Oakland A's. go back to your dope weedy. hey grum, the lack of the usual super stars at the all star game should tell you something. i have seen you guys at games before- always the loudest and rudest, with no consideration for anyone else. baseball to you is just another excuse to party and be stupid.

posted by irunfromclones at 02:01 PM on July 13

Yes, I know the Sportsfilter regulars, and they are all loud and rude and see baseball simply as an excuse to party and be stupid. Every last one.

posted by DrJohnEvans at 03:12 PM on July 13

always the loudest and rudest, with no consideration for anyone else. baseball to you is just another excuse to party and be stupid Hey man, are you that guy that I screamed obscenities at then vomited on at the Metrodome during the seventh inning stretch...because I'm totally sorry. And, I really don't need an excuse to be stupid.

posted by chris2sy at 03:54 PM on July 13

hey grum, the lack of the usual super stars at the all star game should tell you something. Of the top 10 AL batters (OPS), only two (Hafner and Matsui) didn't participate. Of the top 10 NL batters (OPS), only three (Johnson [injured], Giles and Dunn) didn't participate. I saw the all-time HR leaders for catchers and second basemen. I saw MVP winners from 1999-2004. I saw both 2004 Cy Young Award winners, including the greatest pitcher of the past 20 years. I also saw stars (not yet mentioned) like both Ramirezs, Soriano, Smoltz and Mora. I also saw fantastic young pitchers like Peavy, Willis, and Oswalt. So, I'm not sure you can say there was a "lack of superstars" at the all-star game. always the loudest and rudest, with no consideration for anyone else. baseball to you is just another excuse to party and be stupid Have you ever been to a Toronto Blue Jays game? I'm guessing not if you think that's how things are at a baseball game...

posted by grum@work at 04:18 PM on July 13

Trust me i've been to the skydome and your not missing a thing...it's a hideous park they tried to make nice with a retracktable roof. I think the biggest atraction at the park was the hard rock cafe, grum is absolutely right the jays game is more like nap time in kindergarden, than an actual fun sporting event....

posted by gregy606 at 01:49 AM on July 14

I went to my first Blue Jays game last season. We sat about 12 rows behind home plate (in the scout's section!) and around the fourth inning, I politely yelled to the home-plate umpire, "Hey, open the zone a little, will ya?" I swear to God, every single person in my section, AND the umpire, turned around. Later in the game, I told my wife I thought I could hear Vernon Wells breathing in center field.

posted by wfrazerjr at 08:12 AM on July 14

Next time you're sitting behind homeplate at Skydome, could you tell the waitress that works the front row I'm in love with her? HD has pnly made me pine harder. If you will.

posted by yerfatma at 09:59 AM on July 14

Next time you're sitting behind homeplate at Skydome, could you tell the waitress that works the front row I'm in love with her? HD has pnly made me pine harder. If you will. You too? Whenever I watch the HD broadcast and my friend (on the phone) watches the regular broadcast, I ALWAYS mention how good she looks and how the HD makes her look REAL good. I was upset when she wasn't working during a game about a week ago.

posted by grum@work at 11:31 AM on July 14

She has at least 3 fans here at work. Someone should tell her to renogtiate her contract with Aramak or whomever.

posted by yerfatma at 11:52 AM on July 14

I was wondering when someone would approach her about modelling. She's stinking fantastic.

posted by wfrazerjr at 11:53 AM on July 14

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