Petty is a dinosaur. That doesn't make him evil, just WAY out of touch with the times. As far as whether he's correct or not, I'd have to say no. Some of you have pointed out that women haven't had much luck being competitive, but CB900 is right. It's because most racing teams in open wheel and NASCAR are VERY hard to break into. If you're not a member of one of the ruling families, you'd better have plenty of your own money or an amazing amount of talent and luck. Most of the women who've been given an opportunity have been involved with a lower tier team that didn't have competitive pit crews, testing facilities, etc. The NHRA has been more friendly to letting women in. Shirley Muldowney got a chance in dragsters in the late 70's and started tearing up the tracks. There've been women sprinkled through their ranks ever since, but over the last few years it's exploded. If you doubt that women can run with the big dogs, take a look at the current NHRA points standings.
Well, it appears I struck a nerve, or three. First, I would like to say that many more inflammatory things have been said here than what I have said, and, secondly, the personal attacks on myself are quite funny. lbb, you accuse me of "moving the goalposts". I re-iterated what I thought was a reasonable analogy about the Tiger Woods foundation providing opportunities for children, and women of means doing the same for girls, and women, 3 different times. My position is unwavering. In no way did I attempt to quantify what "enough" was, to do so would be largely impossible. But if you are insulted by my suggestion that you be part of the solution, then, I suggest, you are part of what you see as a problem. To compare the attitude of Hitler, and of slave owners, (founding fathers included) and the consequences of those attitudes, to Richard Petty's attitude is, I repeat, absurd. As unfair as women have had it in this country, and the world in general, it does not compare to the injustices served upon the slaves of this country or the jews under the persecution of the third reich, male OR female. Better to work for 3/4 pay than to work as slaves, or be executed for your religous beliefs. And, that is fallacy, as well. By my own observations, if a woman does the same job as a man, she gets equal pay. If she chooses to work as a carpenter, or a roughneck, instead of a clerk, then she is payed the same as men in that field. Was this always the case? Of course not. Is this to suggest that discrimination does not exist? No, but it goes to show that, if a woman is willing to endure the same physical hardships that many "typically male" occupations require, then she is payed accordingly. I don't see that the checks Danica is cashing are less than the men are receiving for same finishes, either. By the way, a yahoo search for "definition of fenugi" only resulted in my being directed to posts by you calling other people the same name in other discussion groups. I found that odd..... bperk there is a huge difference between a sport lacking diversity because there is a lack of diverse interest and a sport that has tons of diverse interest blah, blah, blah everett discrimination is discrimination is discrimination Do you think motor sports have a fair and proportionate number of blacks representing them? Do you think that of the millions of toy race cars sold every year, that not one is purchased by a black child who might be a pretty fair driver if given the chance? Of course the same could be said of little girls. The point that I am making is that neither I, nor the people who read this publication and others, do not think so. Racing, unfortunately, as has been pointed out, is a sport (or, contest, if you will) that requires lots of money and inroads to facilities, car builders, etc. etc. etc. My suggestion for the rectification of the discrimination against females in this field (certainly not the end all to beat all, but a suggestion, nonetheless) was met with disdain. I will not offer one for the discrimination for blacks since I feel it would meet a similar fate. Instead, I will quote Richard Petty, from the link, speaking of Janet Guthrie: "She said, "I'm here, I'm going to do it" and she was able to get it done. You have to admire her for that."
If Richard Petty wants to start weeding out people who don't belong in NASCAR, he should start with his son Kyle. He hasn't won a race in 11 years or even been in the top 5 since 1997.
lbb, you accuse me of "moving the goalposts". I re-iterated what I thought was a reasonable analogy about the Tiger Woods foundation providing opportunities for children, and women of means doing the same for girls, and women, 3 different times. My position is unwavering. It sure is, even in the face of counter-arguments; you ignored it when I pointed out that men in general, and certainly Tiger Woods, have a lot more means than women in general. How many billionaire women can you name? In no way did I attempt to quantify what "enough" was, to do so would be largely impossible. I stand corrected; you didn't move the goalposts, you simply refused to say what they were. You said that women should "do more" without saying what that would look like. It gives you an easy out to ignore whatever women have done for ourselves, and to dismiss any future efforts as "not enough". But if you are insulted by my suggestion that you be part of the solution, then, I suggest, you are part of what you see as a problem. Is that so, son? And how about if I'm insulted because I already am part of the solution? What have you done in your life to advance women's opportunities in sports? Your whole "be part of the solution" sounds to me like a classic copout, a way to justify your failure to walk your talk. To compare the attitude of Hitler, and of slave owners, (founding fathers included) and the consequences of those attitudes, to Richard Petty's attitude is, I repeat, absurd. You really do have a reading comprehension problem, don't you? Read this, carefully: He didn't compare women not racing in NASCAR to the holocaust or slavery. He compared attitudes towards them, and made the point that both contain arguments in favor of a second-class status. Now...whose attitudes am I talking about there? Hint: it's not Hitler's or the founding fathers'. Better to work for 3/4 pay than to work as slaves, or be executed for your religous beliefs. And, that is fallacy, as well. By my own observations, if a woman does the same job as a man, she gets equal pay. If she chooses to work as a carpenter, or a roughneck, instead of a clerk, then she is payed the same as men in that field. Go educate yourself; do a websearch on "pink-collar job". By the way, a yahoo search for "definition of fenugi" only resulted in my being directed to posts by you calling other people the same name in other discussion groups. I found that odd..... I don't; that's what you get for using Yahoo for a search tool. Since this term evidently originated well before your time...fenugi. Fuckin' New Guy.
By some reasoning, women didn't do "enough" to pass the 19th Amendment -- hell, not a single one voted for it! Funniest comment of the day. I'm glad you're back, LBB.
I don't; that's what you get for using Yahoo for a search tool. Since this term evidently originated well before your time...fenugi. Fuckin' New Guy. posted by lil_brown_bat at 7:56 AM CDT on May 27 I've seen you use the term "fenugi" several times and never knew what it meant. Now that I do, I'm amazed at the usage. Here's a post about attitudes, and you infer that a person doesn't know what he's talking about - BECAUSE HE'S A NEW MEMBER TO THIS SITE! Give me a break. Also, please, please, please stop with the moving goal-post analogy. The only thing I know about moving goal-posts was moving them from the front of the end-zone to the back of the end-zone for safety reasons.
lbb: Admittedly, I have done little to advance womens opportunity in sport. I offer my services as a little league umpire (girls play now, too!) and as an official for soccer matches (boys and girls), and have been part of drives to recycle used golf equipment to be used by children of both gender. I do not percieve the lack of women in motor sports as discriminatory, I see it rather as a lack of opportunity and interest. You educate yourself: read of the sacrifices, financial and otherwise, that Kasey Kahne and others have gone through to get where they are on the Nascar circuit. Granted, many of the race car drivers on the various pro circuits were born and bred in racing families, but there are others who found a way to pursue and achieve their goal. If women can not band together on what they percieve as discrimination, then I feel that they will wait a long time before the doors that they feel are closed to them are opened. As for women having less means than men in general, this is true, but there are still a significant number of women in this country who are wealthy, and they became wealthy by overcoming the same barriers set before them as every other woman. I apologize for coming across as saying that you were not a part of the solution, I had no basis for that, and from your comments, here and previously, I can tell that you are sincere (and well educated) in your beliefs.
mjk: I think that you have said it the best. I guess what it really comes down to, however, is the fact that one man doesn't think that women belong in Nascar. Personally, If you think that you have what it takes to drive those cars, then Gods speed to you, I can tell you from racing the local dirt tracks, It is much harder than it looks. The physical requirements to drive the car is out of most womens physical realm. Now don't take that as being discimatory, I'm just stating a fact. There are some women that can drive the wheels off a race. I have witnessed it. For the most part it is just a male dominated sport. I think that women will trickle into the sport eventually and have some success. I don't however, think that there will ever be an overwhelming female presence in Nascar.
After having read this whole thread, I personally have concluded that Petty is an asshole and mjkredliner makes a pretty compelling, consistent arguement.
I've seen you use the term "fenugi" several times and never knew what it meant. Now that I do, I'm amazed at the usage. Here's a post about attitudes, and you infer that a person doesn't know what he's talking about - BECAUSE HE'S A NEW MEMBER TO THIS SITE! Give me a break drevl, read for context, okay? The individual in question, who was commenting about how SpoFi had gone to hell in a bucket, has been a member for less than a month. Still all mad at me?
I do not percieve the lack of women in motor sports as discriminatory, I see it rather as a lack of opportunity and interest. But hang on, this is about Petty saying, "They don't belong." He's not interested in the least in why women aren't well represented in motor sports; he just wants 'em all out. If women can not band together on what they percieve as discrimination, then I feel that they will wait a long time before the doors that they feel are closed to them are opened. So, before you were suggesting the solution was some sugar mamas; now it's to create a mass movement? I dunno, sounds to me like we're talking about three or four different problems by now. I'm not sure who turned this into a parity argument; it sure wasn't me. I apologize for coming across as saying that you were not a part of the solution, I had no basis for that, and from your comments, here and previously, I can tell that you are sincere (and well educated) in your beliefs. Thanks, mjk -- I appreciate that.
Do you think motor sports have a fair and proportionate number of blacks representing them? What exactly are you trying to prove here???? I think that the big issue here is not the lack of women in NASCAR, but rather Petty's attitudes towards them. If Richard Petty expressed similar sentiments about black people as he did about women, no one in their right mind would defend him. I'm not saying that NASCAR needs to go out and recruit women, or black people for that matter. I'm simply saying that when a woman does get the sponsorship and the skill to make it into the ranks that Richard Petty needs to shut his damn mouth and drive his damn car.
NASCAR has in its history one of the ugliest examples of discrimination in an American sport. On Dec. 1, 1963, in Jacksonville, Wendell O. Scott became the first (and still only) black driver to win a race. He didn't get to celebrate the win. Racing officials claimed a "scoring error" and named another driver the winner, telling him hours later that he finished first.
In the early sixties there was often speculation about what exactly would happen if Wendell did win a race. How would officials handle that situation? Would the beauty queen give him the traditional winner's kiss as they used back then? Those questions were answered on the night of December 1, 1963 when Scott won his first, and only, Grand National race in Jacksonville, Florida. Scott came off of turn four on the final lap leading the race but he never saw the checkered flag. The flag instead was waved over Buck Baker's car who was in second at the end of the race. Baker was feted in victory lane, got the race trophy and the kiss from the pretty girl. Many hours later, Scott was informed by officials that they had discovered a scoring error and he was, in fact, the actual winner of the race. Scott received his winner's trophy approximately one month later, without fanfare, at a race in Savannah, Georgia. But it wasn't the original beautiful trophy that Baker had received that night in Florida. Scott's trophy was some cheap looking wood glued together without an engraved brass plate proclaiming his Grand National win.
Read the whole link to get a reminder of the ugly world people are rationalizing as a generational difference. It's too bad that Petty, who reportedly helped out the underfunded, underequipped Scott on occasion, doesn't see the entry of women into NASCAR as a chance to do the right thing at the right time.
Petty is a product of his time, of his age and of his upbringing. As such, like all of us, he has a right to his opinion, esp since it has no effect on if someone, male, female, black, white or green gets to race or not. I don't agree with his opinion, but I support his right to express it no matter how I personally feel about it.
Way to fight for the under dog there commander! I bet there are all sorts of racist discriminatory organizations around the world who would love your support.
I don't support any racists organizations (or non-racist ones for that matter), but I am a card carrying member of the ACLU and I do support everyones right to express their opinions, no matter what those opinions are. It's one of the most basic rights of our country and always the one most in danger of being stopped. Everyone has a right to think and a right to speak what they think, no matter their opinions. I follow the saying that I might not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
/golf clap Amen, commander.
I don't think any one is saying Richard Petty doesn't have a right to be a prick, simply that he is a prick... a dinosaur prick.
I don't think any one is saying Richard Petty doesn't have a right to be a prick, simply that he is a prick... a dinosaur prick. Why? Because you disagree with him? My father was only 2 years older then Petty. If he was still alive he'd be 71 in a few weeks. He was a classic redneck truck driver. Boots. Jeans. Beer belly. Country music. Even a western hat with feathers and sunglasses just like Petty. He and I disagreed on several things like school prayer, inter-racial dating, abortion, etc, but we still loved and respected each other because we agreed to disagree. We each respected the fact that the other had a right to feel like they did, to have their own opinions and we understood it, even if we didn't always agree. Of all of the things he taught me, that was the most important. Even though I disagreed with him on some things I still knew that he was an honest, hard working man that loved his family. I knew he wasn't perfect. He had flaws just as we all do. I knew that the sum of the person he was was a lot more important then my feelings about the things we disagreed about. I disagree with Petty's opinion about women in racing, but the fact that I don't care for his opinion about it doesn't make him a prick, just someone I disagree with on one issue. That's hardly enough of a reason to condemn a man's whole life over or make me respect his accomplishments any less.
Silliness...
I agree with you Cody Silliness...All this over one coment that in itself is a bit silly (out dated and seemingly predudical). Silliness Indeed
Just for the record, these are the first two bullets of the ACLU mission statement. Does it say that second part on the back of your card there cody? Your First Amendment rights-freedom of speech, association and assembly. Freedom of the press, and freedom of religion supported by the strict separation of church and state. Your right to equal protection under the law - equal treatment regardless of race, sex, religion or national origin.
Certainly the ACLU stands for equal treatment under the law. But as your own post indicates, it's first mission is the ultimate protection of the Bill of Rights and the first right mentioned in the Bill of Rights is the freedom of speech. Freedom of speech comes from the freedom to think and to express your thoughts. Without this basic freedom none of the others are possibile. Therefore, in example, even though I hate everything organizations such as say the KKK or Nazis stands for, I respect their right to peacefully express their point of view. As I said before I disagree with Petty's opinion, but I respect and defend his right to express it, mostly because it's just that, an opinion. It carries no weight other then that. If Petty were in a position to stop women from racing then that would be another matter. That would be a discrimatory action, not opinion and he should be stopped. But that's clearly not the case here. He just said that he didn't think women should race, not that he was going to attempt to stop them.
drevl, read for context, okay? The individual in question, who was commenting about how SpoFi had gone to hell in a bucket, has been a member for less than a month. Still all mad at me? posted by lil_brown_bat at 5:56 PM CDT on May 27 lbb, if that's the case then you have a point. However, you seem to be directing this comment to someone named "lightman" and I can't seem to find any comments in this post by anyone named "lightman". Am I missing something?
I don't think really think you're missing anything drevl. There was a comment from someone called "lightman", but it's gone now. Perhaps Gary zapped it? It really wasn't a part of the disscussion as much as just a nasty statement that I can't recall right off hand. That's probably what's causing the confusion.
He just said that he didn't think women should race, not that he was going to attempt to stop them. Words have consequences, Cody. He's making it harder for women to be accepted in auto racing as they've been accepted as combat pilots, shuttle pilots, and many other more physically arduous jobs in the world. When people speak up in favor of prejudice, they embolden others to do the same.
I don't think really think you're missing anything drevl. There was a comment from someone called "lightman", but it's gone now. Perhaps Gary zapped it? It really wasn't a part of the disscussion as much as just a nasty statement that I can't recall right off hand. That's probably what's causing the confusion. Aaaaaah, dawn breaks on Marble Head. Thanks for catching this, CC. Yes, I was indeed responding to lightman, and I guess that comment is gone now; in fact, there are several other responses to comments from lightman in this thread, and I guess all those comments are gone now too.
Commander Cody, I don't think our POVs are necessarily that far off. Where we may disagree is on whether one's upbringing should play a major role in how others receive one's comments. I am willing to accept that Petty was raised to have a barefoot-and-pregnant opinion towards women;however, as I said previously, then was then and now it's now. He has a right to hold to that opinion and to express it, and I have a right to regard him as ignorant and foolish because of it -- many others, raised in the same times, have managed to move on and to grasp the reality that this is no longer how society looks at women. Furthermore, I'm getting the sense that a lot of folks, perhaps yourself included, feel that Petty's comments should be treated with quite a bit of indulgence because of this "product of upbringing" thing. You can feel free to indulge him as you choose, but I don't feel the same compulsion and I don't see why I should. This whole barrage of "you have to understand where he comes from" is really both pointless and insulting. I do understand just fine. I also understand the distinction between an explanation and an excuse. So if you ever meet Richard Petty and he expresses these views to you, you feel free to slap him on the back and say, "Attaway, Pops!" And I'll feel free to tell him to grow up and get over his messed-up childhood already.
Actually, it is more than Petty's words that might be keeping women racers down. He does have a little affiliation with the sport as a team executive. If some woman wanted a legal issue, she could always apply for a driver position with Petty Enterprises, then let the legal feathers fly. I'd love to see Danica approach Petty Racing about forming a new team, or about taking Kyle's car. After all, it's not like he's using it for anything.
