I'll reserve judgment on whether this does indeed cast a dark cloud over the game or represent a watershed moment a few months into next season when we see what effect, if any, this has on the attendance and TV numbers. In a way, this coming out now, a good three solid months before the season starts, is about as good an outcome as MLB could have hoped for. I have a hard time thinking this is going to be first and foremost in the viewing/paying public's mind come opening day, but I'm sure we can count on those in the media with a vested interested (in selling papers, books, filling air time in the dead period of sports, etc.) to try to see to it that it stays a story. I consider myself a pretty big baseball fan and maybe this is the biggest scandal since the Black Sox scandal (other than, of course, the introduction of the DH), but I just don't see the game as all that tainted. There are so many variables in winning a baseball game that the effect of steroids in terms of winning and losing is next to impossible to measure and may well be negligible. (I personally don't care all that much about individual records, so the whole tainted record book thing doesn't really bother me all that much.) Talk to me once they establish that Joe Carter had Devon White shoot him up with steroids immediately before his game-winning home run in the 1993 World Series. I hope MLB takes some proactive steps in combating the problem in the future, from stiffer penalties to a different testing regime, or whatever. But I hope that whatever is done from this point is forward looking and that this report marks the end of the "naming names" of past users.
Maybe I'm a positive thinker, but I don't believe that this report/investigation will ruin the sport. It is what it is. I was fortunate enough to witness 5 HR's hit by Mcgwire in '98. And as I look back, I find that I don't care what he was on, Busch Stadium was ELECTRIC, and that was amazing. I'm sure all baseball fans that get those chills when you see something like that. Which makes you a fan of the spectacle, not baseball. By your reasoning, you would be OK with your kids taking performance enhancing drugs just as long as you can get that ELECTRIC chill when you watch them play. ethics Pronunciation [eth-iks] plural noun 1. (used with a singular or plural verb) a system of moral principles: the ethics of a culture. 2. the rules of conduct recognized in respect to a particular class of human actions or a particular group, culture, etc.: medical ethics; Christian ethics. 3. moral principles, as of an individual: His ethics forbade betrayal of a confidence. honor Pronunciation: [-ner] -noun 1: good name or public esteem : reputation 2: a person of superior standing 3: one whose worth brings respect or fame : credit (an honor to the profession) 4: a keen sense of ethical conduct : integrity (wouldn't do it as a matter of honor)
By your reasoning, you would be OK with your kids taking performance enhancing drugs just as long as you can get that ELECTRIC chill when you watch them play. Which, frankly, is probably a majority position. You'll note that baseball attendance has been steadily increasing in the past few years despite the whole steroid thing and despite the media constantly obsessing over whether or not the sport will 'survive' the 'steroid era'.
Which makes you a fan of the spectacle, not baseball. By your reasoning, you would be OK with your kids taking performance enhancing drugs just as long as you can get that ELECTRIC chill when you watch them play. And by your reasoning, someone who watches porn would enjoy watching their daughter doing it.
I don't think it clears a player not to be mentioned in this report. But I haven't read it yet. i doesn't clear anyone really. aside from the BALCO boys, those names were given up by only two men. and i doubt they were the exclusive suppliers of PEDs to major league baseball. they were just the only ones to get caught. and this is why i don't like that names were published in this report. if you can't name everyone, don't name anyone.
I'm sure we can count on those in the media with a vested interested (in selling papers, books, filling air time in the dead period of sports, etc.) to try to see to it that it stays a story. It won't be someone from ESPN. I've had it on as background noise while cleaning today and have been amazed at the station's take: ESPN legal analyst: Not a big deal, not meaningful, Bud Selig just told us the new policy is working Sean Salisbury (!!!): "Was it worth it?" Buster Olney: not worth it because it's a lot of money for what amounts to a black eye and defames a lot of innocent players Honestly stunned by ESPN's party line on this. I realize I don't air MLB games nor do I make money off of baseball in any way so perhaps I have a skewed perspective, but I think something that's front-page news for every paper in the US is a story that matters.
It won't be someone from ESPN. I've had it on as background noise If you're looking for background noise, might I suggest some less annoying substitutes: 1. Vacuum Cleaner 2. Blow dryer 3. Smoke Detector Alarm
This isn't just a baseball issue, almost all sports are involved. The recent stripping of Marions Jones' Olympic medals is just one more example. Lets face it all the games have changed forever. Every advancement in drugs, fitness training, nutrition, orthopedic surgery, genetics, etc. serves to enhance the performance of athletes as time moves forward. Every generation of athlete has an advantage over those before them. Not just in setting new performance records but in longevity which affects the lifetime marks. Just knowing the or record or mark to be surpassed, is an advantage in and of itself. Lets face maybe Bary Bonds or Emmet Smith would have retired earlier if it wasn't for the fact that they knew how much longer to hang on to reach the all time mark. How many greats of the past careers ended too early because orthroscopic surgery was not around. Should every record have an asterisk? Shouldn't we just get over it all and realize there is no comparisson across generations, and this generation of baseball is what it is and the accomplishments are in the context of what is happening now. Obviously Bonds may have hit drug aided homers, but then again he hit them against drug aided pitchers. I think there is a really good argument for all sports to just move forward and try to define new rules for competittion in the modern age. We just can't go back. Those who long for the good old days when a defensive end only weighed 240 pounds are doomed. It's history. You will see bigger, faster, taller and stronger athletes as time goes on. Either by way of chemicals or genetic engineering. The genie is out of the bottle. The money is too big, and we as fans need more and more. We are just going to have to learn to live with this new reality of life. Don't be surprised when athletes are bred like race horses.
but I think something that's front-page news for every paper in the US is a story that matters Or its something the media thinks should be a story "that matters"
And by your reasoning, someone who watches porn would enjoy watching their daughter doing it. Would you mind coming back when your thinking is a little less twisted and you can keep your comments in context?
Every advancement in drugs, fitness training, nutrition, orthopedic surgery, genetics, etc. serves to enhance the performance of athletes as time moves forward. I think that we, as a society, have an obligation to monitor and if necessary ban PEDs or other "advancements" that can cause brain cancer, roid rage, and (my favorite) shrunken testicles among other things. A libertarian might say that anyone can do whatever they want with their body. But, as soon as one athlete uses PEDS, it puts pressure on other athletes to keep up as well as putting pressure on younger athletes to start using so that they can one day hope to compete in the majors.
No Hall of Fame for any of them!! JMHO Their reward, chosen by themselves, is the lengthened career and a pile of $$$$ We (the writers who vote) do not have to add to that by voting for Hall of Fame for any of them.... unless unmistakenly named... which is highly unlikely given the situation.
I think that we, as a society, have an obligation to monitor and if necessary ban PEDs or other "advancements" that can cause brain cancer, rage, and (my favorite) shrunken testicles among other things. Does HGH cause those things? I'm not so sure it does. Do steroids, properly adminstered by a medical professional, automatically cause those effects? I honestly don't know. Maybe, 30 years from now some of this stuff - HGH - will be viewed as a benefit for humankind. I just think that the "PED era" of sports is really just starting. Baseball is trying to cover its butt with this and I truly believe that the American public doesn't want to know what the numbers are in the NFL. From what I understand, there isn't a reliable test for HGH out there right now. So, outside of catching dummies who pay with personal checks, how is this helping to clean up the sport?
Clemens is a macho SOB. he was my hero. He let me down. He was the only big name not leaked that needed to be leaked. Mitchell dealth with him good and disgraced him. He tarred and feathered, then hanged, drawn, and quartered by Mitchell, all of which he deserves for cheating to get the rings. They should take them from him, and all the others in the Report. It was disgusting how Olney and all those on ESPN defended these cheaters. They hsoul;d get spat at, especially Oney when he said 22 should be in the hof. Rose desrrves it more. 22 does not at all, or bonds or big mac.
Which makes you a fan of the spectacle, not baseball. By your reasoning, you would be OK with your kids taking performance enhancing drugs just as long as you can get that ELECTRIC chill when you watch them play. A fan's relationship to Mark McGwire isn't anything like a parent's relationship to a kid. If someone wants to fondly remember McGwire's cheat-assisted achievements, you can disagree with that without suggesting that the person would 'roid up their kids for thrills. I run from your analogy.
I'm more of the position that this won't affect my enjoyment of the game because: 1) - I'm not surprised. I imagine most professional athletes/teams/organizations will take every advantage they can. No ones out here trying to win medals or representing nations. They're in the business of making millions. (Oooo - I'm a cynic according to Websters) 2) - I'm not wholly convinced steriods = guaranteed success or improvement in baseball. I kinda think of it like golf. It's a skill sport. That's why a Howie Clarke can roid to the tits like a Bonds and there are two distinctly different outcomes. 3) - I am not a fan of the obvious double standard wherein baseball is eviscerated for promoting poor ethics and honour, having a low standard of behaviour and, I dunno - pissing on the flag, but the NFL is completely provided a free pass. That is the essence of bullshit. (and the hallowed record book has nothing to do with the concept of ethics or honour.) 4) - I see no rational way of punishing the guilty. The whole enterprise is responsible and you really can't simply erase a few decades of the sport from the record books. 5) - PEDs have been around for a lot longer than Lenny Dykstra. I think it's pretty fallible to assume that this is such a new thing. My bet is guys were roiding up as far back as the 60s and 70s. Why? Because they were available and these are the kind of jobs where you'd use them.
Completely with Weedy on this drug issue.
I think this report might open up the Hall of Fame for a lot of players that would otherwise be shunned. Goes to show that it was not isolated situations, but widespread. If they let some in who are fingered, how do they keep the others out. And I mean those deserving of the Hall of Fame based strictly on stats, etc. I find it interesting that with Clemens' name so prominent that some of the TV spinners are saying they believe his denial because there is no proof, but they have no problem slamming other athletes who have never tested positive.
Ha Ha... Clemens* was not a surprise what is though is the number of fans who believed his wasn't juiced up. Time will tell if he ever makes it to the hall of fame. Hall of shame yes, next to bonds* and gambi*. What has bothered me is that 1) the commissioner is still the commissioner...he should pass his crown. 2) the $$ money $$ we fans now pay for team loyalty. 3) the fact that steroids are still available. I've heard that the new yankee stadium is going to be called Balco Field...sorry I can't help it.
Agreed on just about everything Weedy said.
+1 to most of what Weedy says, though I think in part the NFL gets away with it because it has no pretensions of being high and mighty and 'pure.' It is trench warfare, and people know it.
Weedy for President.
2) - I'm not wholly convinced steriods = guaranteed success or improvement in baseball That of course is the exact reason the steroids are so dangerous. If the outcome of using steroids was 100% predicable, there would not be such a concern about younger athletes using them. However, we know that some people react very differently than others, and that while some build strength, others develop severe life threathening issues. Beyond that, just because a method of cheating is not 100% successful, does not diminish the fact that one cheated. Greasing a fastball, or corking a bat does not guarantee the desired result, but it's still cheating. All that being said, I do agree with the rest of Weedy's comments.
Has anybody heard a official reply from Andy Petite?
By your reasoning, you would be OK with your kids taking performance enhancing drugs just as long as you can get that ELECTRIC chill when you watch them play. I could not respond any better than rcade, who said: A fan's relationship to Mark McGwire isn't anything like a parent's relationship to a kid. If someone wants to fondly remember McGwire's cheat-assisted achievements, you can disagree with that without suggesting that the person would 'roid up their kids for thrills. I have more admiration for my kids when they fail, then I would ever have for Mark Mcgwire or Barry Bonds or Joe Blow. And I appreciate the cut and paste from the dictionary... but ethics and honor. I too would love the idea of these two words being the #1 and #2 priority of every athelete. But, they are not. And they have not been for some time now. Maybe you should have chosen deciet and greed. All said, I will still attend baseball games, still root for my favorite teams or players, and still enjoy the ENTERTAINMENT they provide for us. And I will in no way encourage my children to believe that these athletes are some sort of perfect supreme human being. And when my children are grown, the athletes of their day will probably be accused of having some bionic arm or leg, or who knows what. But I know my kids will not be fooled. P.S. Well said Weedy.
I too would love the idea of these two words being the #1 and #2 priority of every athelete. But, they are not. And they have not been for some time now. Maybe you should have chosen deciet and greed. Tell me something: what makes athletes different than human beings as a whole? Scrutinize the actions of CEOs or government officials, or anyone who has the authority to make decisions and the opportunity to profit from it, and you'll find plenty for whom "ethics" and "honor" are not paramount. You'll also find plenty whose deceitful and greedy actions make the baseball players you rail against look like pikers. This has been said many times before, in this forum and out of it, when someone professes to feeling disappointed at athletes not measuring up as role models -- but clearly it bears saying again: you put 'em up on a pedestal, so don't be surprised when they topple off.
Weedy for President. Agreed. I move that we make him lead us to freedom. Or free NFL Network for all.
Pete Rose is looking better and better as a hall of fame prospect to me. Comment icon posted by Atheist at 10:16 AM CST on December 14 Other people have "cheated", thus the biggest human stain in the past 60 years of the sport suddenly becomes a better candidate for enshrinement in the hallowed halls of baseball history? You're going to have to break that one down for me into short little sentences for me to have any idea why that would be the case.
And yes, I fully agree with Weedy.
I know hindsight is 20/20 but try this on: 1. Each individual player under suspicion talks to George Mitchell privately. 2. The player would talk only about his own self. No here-say or tattle-telling.In return for the players honesty, the player would remain anonymous in any future report. 3. George Mitchell would issue report based on percentages of player use or abuse of PEDs. You got step 3 wrong. 3. George Mitchell would issue the same report, except at the end of every section about each player it would say "[player name] denies that he used/purchased performance enhancing steroids." Which, as we know, the media would fully respect and report, and not simply overlook.
The thing I hate about performance-enhancing drugs in sport is that they make it harder for the athletes who are smart enough to know they are bad news. These athletes have to watch while the cheaters prosper, and they can decide to either fall behind or join them. A hypercompetitive nature is one of the things that makes a top-flight athlete. Turning down these drugs has to be tough. But as scandalous and disappointing as the Mitchell Report is, I'll still be excited when pitchers and catchers report. This is not a scandal that makes me question the integrity of future games. It just spoils my love of major records that the 'roiders broke. I can't imagine ever caring about the career home run record or season home run record again unless someone breaks them in a clean era, if such a thing is even possible.
This has been said many times before, in this forum and out of it, when someone professes to feeling disappointed at athletes not measuring up as role models -- but clearly it bears saying again: you put 'em up on a pedestal, so don't be surprised when they topple off. Lbb, I agree completely. And I'm not railing against the motives of todays athletes. I was pointing out to irunfromclones that the words he used: ethics and honor, in no way describe said athletes. And I have no doubt that all professions have a version of this story.
So when the dust settles the greatest hitter of the steroid era will be Frank Thomas.
Yup. Him & Ken Griffey, and that could be about it.
So when the dust settles the greatest hitter of the steroid era will be Frank Thomas. Alex Rodriguez has been playing full-time MLB since 1996, which is 2 years before McGwire/Sosa went on their HR rampage. I think he qualifies as being part of the "steroid era", and his prime was right in the middle of it. ARod Thomas Griffey Ramirez Jeter I'm pretty sure all six of them will get into the HOF, and none of them have been painted with the "steroid" brush (rightly or wrongly).
Eyewitness testimony in Mitchell Report may be flawed. Of course, barely anyone is going to hear about that over the din of "Hang'em high!" Tough luck, Brian Roberts (and possibly anyone else implicated by the report based on this kind of testimony). It isn't a court of law, so it shouldn't matter to you what other people think...
I'm pretty sure all six of them will get into the HOF, and none of them have been painted with the "steroid" brush (rightly or wrongly). Yet. Jose Canseco may be a sales-obsessed pompous jackass, but he hasn't been wrong about a whole lot of this stuff, and he called out A-Rod immediately and emphatically yesterday. I wouldn't call it evidence or anything, but at this point, he's got at least as much credibility as, frex, a random clubhouse mule.
If you really think this should just be swept under the rug because it's just the ravings of a couple of disgruntled workers, then you're watching way too much ESPN. I wasn't saying that at all, if you go back and read what I wrote I think it is now more than ever the time for the players and management to do something about this. I just also think it was a railroad job by the commissioners office to do it this way. It could have been handled a whole lot better. Without a bunch of players names being drug through the mud by the press. Think about it. If Selig had wanted, this all could have been done with sealed results. Only shared with the players and their respective teams, and the players association. Followed by a big sit down to figure out what will be done to change the way MLB handles things. Instead now you have up to 80 players that can't enjoy their off season any more, are pissed off as hell at the league, and most likely won't budge on a drug policy because most of the stuff in the Mitchell report is old info anyways. You know that will be the attitude too, it is hard to blame them sometimes. Canseco has been calling out A-Rod's name and roids before the end of this investigation. That does not make him right. When did they play together for him to see this?
If Selig had wanted, this all could have been done with sealed results. Only shared with the players and their respective teams, and the players association. Ah, yes, because that would
