FanDuel - WFBC

May 07, 2009

Manny Ramirez suspended for substance abuse: Of all the stars that had been linked to substance abuse, Manny Ramirez had not been one, until he was suspended for fifty games today for violating baseball's substance abuse policy.

posted by boredom_08 to baseball at 11:49 AM - 104 comments

I should make an addendum that ESPN has for sure said that it was performance-enhancing drugs, not some other drug violating the substance abuse policy.

posted by boredom_08 at 11:50 AM on May 07

Holy shit. There goes my "Manny's too stupid to do X, Y and Z" theory.

posted by jerseygirl at 12:05 PM on May 07

Just Manny being Manny?

posted by fadetoblack5 at 12:14 PM on May 07

That's such a bummer. I would truly rather not know this stuff.

posted by bperk at 12:14 PM on May 07

Just when you thought the Dodgers had finally put it all together.

Ugh. How dumb do you have to be to be taking these drugs in today's baseball?

posted by rcade at 12:18 PM on May 07

It was from his Dr. and was not roids. it was something dumb. Give the guy a little credit

posted by Debo270 at 12:31 PM on May 07

It sounds like this could just be an unfortunate situation, as Debo points out. However, now that the words "Manny" and "steroids" have been said in a sentence together, that's never going to go back in the box. I hope it's nothing more than the doctor mistake, I've truly enjoyed watching Manny's antics the past few years.

posted by boredom_08 at 12:43 PM on May 07

Canseco was saying Ramirez was on the list for about a month now.

posted by jerseygirl at 12:57 PM on May 07

Canseco was saying Ramirez was on the list for about a month now

I just knew that someone would bring up the name Jose Canseco. Don't you think we give this guy way too much credit? He's the male version of Selena Roberts, just keep speculating & specualting and something will eventually come up. Don't let a little thing like facts get in the way of a good story.

I will not assume that Manny is guilty or innocent until all of the facts are brought up. I just can't fathom why anyone would use perfomance enhancing-anything in 2009 when MLB is attempting to keep a close eye on just about every major leaguer playing today.

posted by BornIcon at 01:12 PM on May 07

He's a grade A douchebag, but has he been wrong yet?

posted by jerseygirl at 01:21 PM on May 07

When has Canseco been wrong, though, BornIcon?

posted by rcade at 01:21 PM on May 07

Great minds think alike. And post at the same time.

posted by rcade at 01:21 PM on May 07

Maybe he did in the past, but i would be shocked if this is really a "Performance Enhancing " drug. This may end up being like those guys on the Vikings. Something for weight or something obscure on the list. I think he will end up being guilty of not checking with the league about something he was taking, but it wont be roids or HGH..

posted by Debo270 at 01:25 PM on May 07

BornIcon doesn't enjoy your speculating and speculating, debo.

posted by jerseygirl at 01:29 PM on May 07

Sorry for lowering enjoyment levels but in a recent interview with Manny, he was asked what he thought about suspensions for PED's and Manny said if caught once, you should be banned for life. He was very serious when he said it. I dont think he is the type to do it. Sorry my thoughts are not fact based but I did believe him when he said that.

posted by Debo270 at 01:40 PM on May 07

It's not about him being right or wrong because we could all sit back and speculate about who took performing enhancing drugs and will probably be right about it. My point is that because Canseco doesn't know if a guy has indeed taken PED's or not, he's simply speculating, he has no proof.

We don't know if Manny took PED's or not but from what it sounds like, his Dr. prescribed something to Manny that may had a substance that is banned by MLB and that may be what came up with a positive result.

Like I said before, I will not speculate if Manny did or didn't use PED's for the simple fact that I'm still trying to get the taste of my foot out of my mouth.

BornIcon doesn't enjoy your speculating and speculating, debo

Felt so good that you had to say it twice?

posted by BornIcon at 01:42 PM on May 07

Jose Canseco was wrong when he said up to 85% of players used them. There has been no evidence of that. Further, since he thinks damn near everyone is using them, anyone who gets caught somehow vindicates Canseco. Plus, his book touts steroids as safe and just all around wonderful if used properly.

Oh, and he also said Roger Clemens never cheated on his wife.

posted by bperk at 01:43 PM on May 07

Debo, I believed Palmiero at the Congressional hearings. So. Yeah there's that.

posted by jerseygirl at 01:44 PM on May 07

Well maybe i will be proven wrong again, but for some reason i believe the guy. If i am wrong i will gladly insert foot in mouth.

posted by Debo270 at 01:48 PM on May 07

It's hard to believe any of them anymore.

posted by jerseygirl at 01:49 PM on May 07

You actually believe Magnum PI when he did that, JG? What about when Big Mac was sweating like Patrick Ewing in the 4th quarter and kept repeating, "I don't want to talk about the past?"

If i am wrong i will gladly insert foot in mouth.

Careful Debo, you might get just what you asked for. Just remember to wash them first, I wish someone would have told me that.

posted by BornIcon at 01:51 PM on May 07

Holy shit. There goes my "Manny's too stupid to do X, Y and Z" theory.

And I wonder how his doctor feels, being thrown under the bus like that.

Does he really expect me to believe a professional sports doc is dumb enough to prescribe a banned substance? Fucking moron.

posted by smithnyiu at 01:52 PM on May 07

It seems to me that there should be someone on each ballclub who can check as whether or not a prescribed medication is OK for a player to take. It seems that the ballplayers are not "smart" enough to figure it out.

posted by reeserl at 01:55 PM on May 07

Does he really expect me to believe a professional sports doc is dumb enough to prescribe a banned substance? Fucking moron.

Do we even know if it was a "professional sports doc" or just a common doctor? There is a difference I believe.

posted by BornIcon at 01:55 PM on May 07

It's just Manny being a cheater.

posted by tommytrump at 02:01 PM on May 07

We don't know if Manny took PED's or not but from what it sounds like, his Dr. prescribed something to Manny that may had a substance that is banned by MLB and that may be what came up with a positive result.


Wasn't that Ben Johnson's first excuse ?

posted by tommytrump at 02:11 PM on May 07

Wasn't that Ben Johnson's first excuse ?

Yeah but he's from Canada so that doesn't count.

/I kid

posted by BornIcon at 02:13 PM on May 07

It seems to me that there should be someone on each ballclub who can check as whether or not a prescribed medication is OK for a player to take

NFL teams have a guys who "knows" what is and isnt on the list. I think the trainers would know. I think Manny is guilty of not asking the right people about something on the list and jsut trusting the D.r that gave it to him.

posted by Debo270 at 02:15 PM on May 07

It seems to me that there should be someone on each ballclub who can check as whether or not a prescribed medication is OK for a player to take. It seems that the ballplayers are not "smart" enough to figure it out.

There are, reeserl: team doctors. The players are not expected to determine what's in their medications and supplements. All they need to do is pick up a freaking phone and ask about it. In Manny's case, that was a $7 million phone call, which is why I'm not inclined to believe his excuse.

posted by cl at 02:22 PM on May 07

Notice there's no mention of an appeal by Manny or the players union.

Gregory (Scotland Yard detective): "Is there any other point to which you would wish to draw my attention?" Holmes: "To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time." Gregory: "The dog did nothing in the night-time." Holmes: "That was the curious incident."

posted by irunfromclones at 02:23 PM on May 07

Everyone may not trust the team doctor to vet their personal health issues with him/her. I think it is too early to conclude that he won't appeal. I don't see why he would bother to appeal though. Regardless of the circumstances, Manny is responsible for ensuring that nothing he takes is on the banned list. So, I'm not inclined to disbelieve his story just because he doesn't appeal. Manny in his statement says that he has taken and passed about 15 drug tests over the past five years (read: I'm not really a doper).

posted by bperk at 02:48 PM on May 07

Notice there's no mention of an appeal by Manny or the players union.

Manny waived his right to challenge the suspension.

posted by goddam at 03:02 PM on May 07

Faith continues to erode until the last remnants of faith are washed away with the rain of mistrust.

I can't say that the news of anyone caught cheating in baseball by taking a banned substance comes as much of a surprise. At one point I held the belief that they were innocent until proven guilty.

Now that has changed. I suspect them all. And that makes me sad.

posted by THX-1138 at 03:04 PM on May 07

I've always liked Manny, but the blame-the-doctor story is a bit ridiculous. Do people really believe that athletes in Ramirez's position are taking drugs without checking with anybody to see that they are not banned by baseball? I don't know how much Ramirez's agent earned on his current contract, but it has to be enough to be able to get the guy on the phone and ask, "My doctor wants to prescribe me with [drugnamehere]. Is that OK with the league?" Ramirez also could have called the league.

posted by rcade at 03:17 PM on May 07

The suspension will cost Ramirez $7.7 million, or roughly 31% of his $25-million salary.

Holy mackerel that's a huge penalty.

posted by rcade at 03:20 PM on May 07

Do people really believe that athletes in Ramirez's position are taking drugs without checking with anybody to see that they are not banned by baseball?

I don't believe that most athletes would take a drug without checking with anybody to see if that drug was banned by baseball.

I do believe that Manny Ramirez would.

On the plus side, at least this time he has a legitimate excuse for being healthy but not playing.

posted by Joey Michaels at 03:25 PM on May 07

Manny in his statement says that he has taken and passed about 15 drug tests over the past five years (read: I'm not really a doper).

Not to diss you bperk, but it doesn't matter to me how many drug tests Manny passed, its the one he failed that counts.

posted by irunfromclones at 03:27 PM on May 07

ESPN is reporting that the banned substance is called HCG (human chorionic gonadotropin.) Used more commonly as a masking agent for steroids.

posted by Newbie Walker at 03:40 PM on May 07

Do people really believe that athletes in Ramirez's position are taking drugs without checking with anybody to see that they are not banned by baseball?

I don't believe that most athletes would take a drug without checking with anybody to see if that drug was banned by baseball.

I don't think most athletes with half a brain would, but I have met a lot of very stupid people over the years (including some athletes). I wouldn't be all that surprised that some of the less thinking athletes would make such a dumb mistake. In fact, people doing really stupid things rarely surprises me. (Disclaimer: I am making no claims about Manny's intelligence. I don't know the guy.)

posted by bperk at 03:40 PM on May 07

HCG "is prescribed to stimulate female fertility and testosterone production in men and to treat delayed puberty in boys," according to Newsday. If Manny hasn't reached puberty yet, no wonder he sought medical treatment.

posted by rcade at 03:48 PM on May 07

Jose Canseco was wrong when he said up to 85% of players used them. There has been no evidence of that.

Just because that hasn't been proven yet, that doesn't make him wrong.

Further, since he thinks damn near everyone is using them, anyone who gets caught somehow vindicates Canseco.

Exactly.

I'm finding myself at a bit of an internal struggle over this matter. On the one hand, I am disappointed at the number of players getting busted for using steroids or drugs, but on the other hand, each time a new name comes out, I find myself caring less and less.

posted by bender at 03:52 PM on May 07

Who really doubted that this would happen? Say all you want about him being one of the greatest hitters ever, but his antics through the years have made him appear classless and clueless. Sorry Manny, a HOF'er you ain't.

If Manny hasn't reached puberty yet, no wonder he sought medical treatment.

Perhaps it explains his other childish tendencies, too.

posted by mjkredliner at 04:07 PM on May 07

However, at least according to Wikipedia, HCG has another typical use:

In the male, hCG injections are used to stimulate the leydig cells to synthesize testosterone. The intratesticular testosterone is necessary for spermatogenesis from the sertoli cells. Typical uses for hCG in men include hypogonadism and fertility treatment.
So, it is conceivably possible that Manny has been having, er, fertility problems.

posted by Joey Michaels at 04:20 PM on May 07

I've always liked Manny, but the blame-the-doctor story is a bit ridiculous. Do people really believe that athletes in Ramirez's position are taking drugs without checking with anybody to see that they are not banned by baseball? I don't know how much Ramirez's agent earned on his current contract, but it has to be enough to be able to get the guy on the phone and ask, "My doctor wants to prescribe me with [drugnamehere]. Is that OK with the league?" Ramirez also could have called the league.

If the fertility-treatment angle is indeed the correct one (not saying it is), then yes, I really do believe someone might hide that from just about everyone, including his own team doctors.

posted by dfleming at 04:35 PM on May 07

So, it is conceivably possible that Manny has been having, er, fertility problems.

He has three sons. Two are named Manny and one is named Lucas.

posted by jerseygirl at 04:38 PM on May 07

If the fertility-treatment angle is indeed the correct one (not saying it is), then yes, I really do believe someone might hide that from just about everyone, including his own team doctors.

If you can't tell your agent you have tiny testicles and expect complete privacy, who can you tell? I would tell Arli$$ about my itchy pilonidal dimple.

posted by rcade at 04:42 PM on May 07

However, two sources said the substance Ramirez tested positive for was a gonadotropin. Major League baseball's list of banned substances includes the gonadotropins LH and HCG, which are most commonly used by women as fertility drugs. They also can be used to trigger testosterone production. Testosterone is depleted by steroid use, and low testosterone can cause erectile dysfunction. - Yahoo

posted by jerseygirl at 04:46 PM on May 07

While it may be concievable that he was trying to conceive, I'm going to go with what the doctor in the article was quoted as saying... "It's not infrequently part of the mix of the poly-drug approach to doping," said Dr. Gary Wadler, chairman of the committee that determines the banned-substances list for the World Anti-Doping Agency. "It typically is used most when people are coming off a cycle to restore to normal biophysiological feedback mechanisms."

Given that HCG was just banned last year, it explains how he had previously passed tests. The HCG helped him restore his body to normal.

As to his not fighting the suspension because he didn't want to risk missing time late in the season...that's bunk. He could easily stop playing now, file the appeal, and if denied the suspension would be retroactive to when he stopped playing. I'm just not buying it. That the union is not trying to influence this also makes me believe they know more than we do.

Release the list of the other players...test every player weekly...let's get past this issue. This slow burn is crazy.

posted by dviking at 04:52 PM on May 07

If, in fact, it was being used to treat erectile dysfunction, which is the most likely reason, both Manny and his doctor should have been smart enough to make sure it didn't violate the MLB policy. It's too late now, and it's going to cost him about $8 million in salary. Dumb all the way around, and the Dodgers and their fans end up the big losers. Thanks Manny, see you in July, and you better still have a stiff bat, brother....

posted by eccsport78 at 05:08 PM on May 07

"If, in fact, it was being used to treat erectile dysfunction, which is the most likely reason...

Why is it more likely that a young (in real-world terms) and physically healthy man is using HCG to treat erectile dysfunction, than it is that yet another baseball player is covering his steroid use?

posted by MeatSaber at 05:20 PM on May 07

He has three sons. Two are named Manny.....

Of course they are.

posted by tommytrump at 05:22 PM on May 07

Right?

posted by jerseygirl at 05:23 PM on May 07

He has three sons. Two are named Manny and one is named Lucas.

That's so crazy I assumed it was a joke. Nope.

I can't stop giggling.

posted by dusted at 05:56 PM on May 07

In rare instances, men taking HCG inhibitors (Human chorionic gonadotropin) reported a sudden decrease or loss of vision. It is not possible to determine whether these events are related directly to these medicines or to other factors. If you experience sudden decrease or loss of vision, stop taking HCG inhibitors, and call a doctor right away. If you have an erection lasting longer than 5 seconds, we did our job. Do not take HCG to mask an end cycle of HGH if you are tested for HCG, especially if HCG is a banned substance. Ask you physician if he knows if HCG is a banned substance, or trust that he knows it is a banned substance and won't prescribe HCG because it is a banned substance. If you are not a woman, what are you doing? This is for women.

posted by smithnyiu at 06:07 PM on May 07

Smith, why can't I read your post????

posted by cjets at 06:22 PM on May 07

Is that your only issue? Be honest.

posted by smithnyiu at 06:25 PM on May 07

You know, I'm wondering if we shouldn't just allow legal PE substances in all sports.

The leagues could require that players log and report what they've used. It can be added to their stats, to their baseball cards, etc.

The fastball would be faster, long home runs would be longer, and we could have folks flying around the bases like The Flash.

Why not? Let's create a generation of scientifically enhanced super athletes. As many have pointed out, HGH and the like doesn't make you better at being able to actually make contact with the ball or aim your pitches.

All we'd have to do it re-brand Major League Baseball a little to reflect this change of attitude. I would modestly propose they consider calling it MLB*.

posted by Joey Michaels at 06:38 PM on May 07

I don't know. Everything just turned (dodger) blue.

posted by cjets at 07:56 PM on May 07

I heard the news with a mixture of gratification and sadness. The gratification comes from now being convinced beyond any doubt that Manny is a self-serving, unethical, and greedy jerk. The sadness comes because the 2004 and 2007 World Series championships won by Boston are now tainted. We don't know how long Manny has been doing this. Was he on the original report like A-Rod, but was lucky enough not to be "outed"? I am also thankful that Theo Epstein had the foresight and nerve to get rid of him last season. He's your problem now, LA.

posted by Howard_T at 08:47 PM on May 07

While I don't want to indict everyone here, maybe we can logically assume that that the greater majority of the athletes are using some sort of enhancement. At least that way, we won't have to be "Shocked" to hear that player "X" tested positive for something...whether it be a performance enhancement or a masking agent Now it's Manny and recently A-Rod (who I really wanted to believe was doing it legit! as I personally can't stomach Barry Bonds). The point I really want to make here is this....I'd have no problem with the heroes of our youth having their records broken (Records are basically rented only!)....I do so want to believe however, it was done legitimally!

posted by R_A_Mason at 11:51 PM on May 07

In reference to the last post: if we're no longer "Shocked", then will people at least retroactively acknowledge that the media bashing of Barry Bonds was unwarranted. He at worst wasn't any different than most of the people he competed against, and still significantly outperformed them. The hatred of Barry Bonds- the previous poster said they couldn't "stomach" him- seems wholly irrational and without reasonable foundation, all the more so when you can't even point to him as the one crooked player that "sullied" the game.

I'd said this on Metafilter, but there are only two players about whom steroid use would sadden me: Pedro Martinez and Ichiro. Pedro because his accomplishments were so stunning- especially in light of these sorts of revelations- and Ichiro because his style is such a captivating throwback that to find out he'd been juicing would leave me to only ask "Then why weren't you popping 20HR a year to go along with the average?!".

posted by hincandenza at 01:10 AM on May 08

Why you gotta suck the joy out of hating Barry Bonds by making a good point?

posted by tahoemoj at 01:42 AM on May 08

Barry Bonds holds both the single-season record and career home run record in the history of the MLB. He is 3rd all-time in career runs, 4th all-time career bases, 4th in RBIs, I'd say it's pretty easy to separate Bonds from all the rest. He holds some of the most coveted offensive statistics in all of baseball. Just because he is the "best, most talented" cheater shouldn't relieve him of discredit. I'll admit that I am not surprised that Man Ram is a cheater too, but BB shouldn't get some weight lifted simply because his peers were just as stupid, and less talented.

posted by BoKnows at 02:07 AM on May 08

15 tests in 5 years? Is that a standard testing schedule for the average player with no convictions? That sounds like a lot.

posted by EnglishSpin at 02:22 AM on May 08

FIRST OF ALL I WOULD LIKE TO SAY MLB NEEDS TO GET OFF MANNY AND LET THIS GO. THIS MAY BE THE ONLY WAY TO STOP THE DODGERS 13 WINS IN A ROW AT HOME. I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW HOW A- ROD CAN PLAY ,BUT MANNY CAN'T. THIS IS STUPID A -ROD SAID HE HAS USED IN HIGH SCHOOL,WOW ! I KNOW IF MANNY WOULD HAVE BEEN JUST A AVERAGE BALL PLAYER WE WOULD NEVER HEARD OF THIS. I SURE BET THAT MLB LIKED THE MONEY MANNY WAS MAKING THEM. I THINK MLB NEEDS A GOVERMENT BAIL OUT ON THIS SUBJECT !!!!!!!!!

posted by TEXAS at 02:26 AM on May 08

ummm Tex, why all caps?

As to BB...what BoKnows said. He got all the glory while breaking those records, he gets an extra heaping of shame for doing so on the juice.

posted by dviking at 02:56 AM on May 08

Texas, easy on the caps. Also, your theories are absolutely baseless and ridiculous.

posted by jerseygirl at 06:46 AM on May 08

He at worst wasn't any different than most of the people he competed against, and still significantly outperformed them.

The hatred of Barry Bonds is commensurate with the achievements he accomplished, I think. The fact that the single-season and career home run records were broken on 'roids does not sit well with a lot of fans, and probably won't until somebody clean takes them back, if such a thing is possible.

Personally, I don't care which cheaters did better than the other cheaters, nor would I want to compliment them for this achievement. I just want to see them all outed so we can enjoy the post-'roid era and the players who excel in it.

posted by rcade at 07:14 AM on May 08

You know, I'm wondering if we shouldn't just allow legal PE substances in all sports. ... Why not?

Assuming you're not kidding, Lyle Alzado is a pretty good reason why not.

posted by rcade at 07:15 AM on May 08

The sadness comes because the 2004 and 2007 World Series championships won by Boston are now tainted.

Yeah and I'm sure that Red Sox fans now want to give back those World Series rings because of this. The horror!

The hatred of Barry Bonds is commensurate with the achievements he accomplished...

Not necessarily, the reason people hate Bonds, IMO, is more due to him not being media friendly. If Bonds had been more like Derek Jeter let's say and the steriod allegations were brought up the way they were, I personally don't think that Bonds would've been ousted from the game the way he was towards the end of his run with the Giants.

We are a forgiving people by nature but it just seems that when it comes to sports, we put these athletes on such a high pedestal that when they fall, we can't help but to kick them when they're down.

posted by BornIcon at 08:27 AM on May 08

The sadness comes because the 2004 and 2007 World Series championships won by Boston are now tainted.

I suppose it's just like anything else... I mean, Clemens and Pettitte were pitching for the Yankees championship teams when they were supposedly juicing.

posted by jerseygirl at 08:45 AM on May 08

I think it's funny how so many people want to believe Manny because they like him as person. I admit that I enjoy watching him play but the huge penalty and the fact that he wont contest it tells me he's dirty. On the flip side Roger Clemens' and Barry Bonds personality was such that alot of people were quick to convict them and had no trouble believing they were juicing.

Everyone hates Conseco but the fact of the matter is that like him or not he outed the cheaters (himself included) and now people are left not liking the feeling of "where have all the heros gone" so they decide it's easier to just dislike the messenger.

The time has come for MLB to decide whether it's going to be a serious sport or proffessional wrestling. People enjoy proffessional wrestling but no one takes it seriously anymore.

posted by firecop at 10:08 AM on May 08

Everyone hates Conseco but the fact of the matter is that like him or not he outed the cheaters...

FC, I respect your opinion but Canseco didn't "out the cheaters", he only outed Mark Maguire. Canseco merely speculated about other players but never had actual proof to back up his theory. He may have been right to some degree but it wasn't like any person with credibility actually goes searching for Canseco's opinion about who's on the juice. Any one of us can speculate about who took this or who took that but it wouldn't hold water anywhere.

posted by BornIcon at 10:24 AM on May 08

hincadenza, I would add Albert Pujols to that list of players I would be sad to find out were juicing. I am a bit of a homer for that one, but he's been so good for nine years now, and he's had the consistency a lot of the other juicers lack.

posted by boredom_08 at 11:24 AM on May 08

At least he didn't try and deny it. Jose Canseco seems to just like trouble. Manny didn't lie he said he was given drugs and now he is responsible for the consequences that have been given to him.

posted by billsrule09 at 11:41 AM on May 08

Any one of us can speculate about who took this or who took that but it wouldn't hold water anywhere.

We're not in baseball. We don't have the access to baseball insiders that Canseco did for 20 years. It's not like he was talking out his ass. He knew people, he heard things, and thus far he's been right on the specific players he named.

posted by rcade at 11:41 AM on May 08

What sucks about this whole subject is players like Griffey Jr won't hold the records that Bonds (or other cheaters) do. Besides Cy Young, what record in baseball doesn't have an asterisk? The cheaters get their names in lights. Sucks.

posted by smithnyiu at 11:43 AM on May 08

Manny didn't lie he said he was given drugs

Jury is still out, I'm going to say.

posted by jerseygirl at 12:53 PM on May 08

Canseco is nowhere near a baseball field now though, rcade and no one in baseball really has any type of relationship with him these days after everything that's been said & done by him just to make a few extra bucks. Sure, he played until 2001 but when he spoke about who may be on the juice, he was only giving his opinion about who may be using PED's, he never had facts to back up what he was saying. People may hear things about this person or that person but it doesn't mean that it's either true or untrue, it's just talk.

Like I said before, I'll wait until all the facts about what happened with Manny are out before I can say if he cheated the game of baseball but that's just me.

posted by BornIcon at 01:07 PM on May 08

Canseco is nowhere near a baseball field now though, rcade and no one in baseball really has any type of relationship with him these days after everything that's been said & done by him just to make a few extra bucks.

You can't possibly know that Canseco has no relationship with anyone in baseball. I spent a little time with someone in baseball recently and heard first-hand stories about steroids and specific players. It seems to me that rampant PED abuse was common knowledge within the game and Canseco's the guy who broke the code and spilled the beans, just as Jim Bouton broke the secrecy of the lockerroom in Ball Four back in the '70s.

posted by rcade at 01:51 PM on May 08

Do we now refer to him as, "Manny being Mammy?"

posted by jjzucal at 02:35 PM on May 08

Why is there such animosity toward Canseco by some? He is no different than the other juicers. I wonder if people dislike him b/c he destroys (whether by actual knowledge or implication) people's fairy tale beliefs that THEIR favorite players wouldn't cheat, it is just those OTHER guys.

We shouldn't idolize Canseco, but there is no reason to defend or "like" ARod, Bonds, and all others who cheated by taking PED's more than him. Why should any of us care if he is a "nark?" One day the game could maybe actually get cleaned up, and if that happens no one could deny his role in that process. He isn't a hero by any means, but he isn't a villian either.

posted by brainofdtrain at 02:37 PM on May 08

The sadness comes because the 2004 and 2007 World Series championships won by Boston are now tainted.

Well, I guess that's a personal decision, but I find it pretty ridiculous. I know some Yankee fans are jumping on this, and I know some Red Sox fans have always called the Yankee victory over the Sox in 2003 tainted because of Giambi, and I don't agree with either, though other than here I can't muster enough passion to argue the point.

If you just assume, as you're doing, that Manny was juicing in 2004, then you have to take each player that's juiced and assume they've done it their entire careers. That means pettitte was juicing during the Yankee championship years, etc.

Add to that it seems to be pretty much accepted that a huge number of players were juicing on every team, and you can't just pick Boston's accomplishments as tainted. You have to call every championship in the steroid era tainted. They're playing on a level field.

So put an asterisk over the entire era. Just realize you're ignoring the greenie era which lasted much longer than the steroid era.

What sucks about this whole subject is players like Griffey Jr won't hold the records that Bonds (or other cheaters) do. Besides Cy Young, what record in baseball doesn't have an asterisk? The cheaters get their names in lights. Sucks.

The same exact thought was being said about Arod not too long ago. Thank god arod, clean and natural, was going to break the home run record.

I doubt griffey has ever done steroids, but I certainly wouldn't be shocked by anything now. And anyone claiming they're positive a certain player is clean is in denial. Players with all body types (bonds, clemens, manny, etc.) have used steroids. I'm guessing that griffey has escaped any speculation because rather than do well later in his career, or even get better, he's pretty much broken down and sucked (ok, sucked is kind of harsh, but in comparison...).

posted by justgary at 02:50 PM on May 08

What sucks about this whole subject is players like Griffey Jr won't hold the records that Bonds (or other cheaters) do.

Griffey Jr. didn't hold those records to begin with. Hank Aaron and Roger Maris both held the records that Griffey Jr. would've been most likely to achieve and he's never passed either of them.

posted by dfleming at 03:17 PM on May 08

Griffey Jr. didn't hold those records to begin with.

That was my point. Had he a regular diet of PE dope he would have recovered so much quicker when injured and had even more power. He would have been the one to break these records, IMHO.

posted by smithnyiu at 03:28 PM on May 08

Do we now refer to him as, "Manny being Mammy?"

Winner, winner! Chicken dinner!

posted by THX-1138 at 03:29 PM on May 08

Well, I guess that's a personal decision, but I find it pretty ridiculous.

Agreed. Howard, at the end of the day, they beat other teams with juicers on them. And there's always the possibility he turned to PEDs after his power dipped in '07.

posted by yerfatma at 05:12 PM on May 08

Jose Canseco held a press conference yesterday to give his take on the Ramirez suspension. Almost nobody attended.

posted by rcade at 06:07 PM on May 08

Note about the Canseco press conference: He actually said that the media was on overkill about steroids. There's something delightfully ironic about him saying that. Can't quite place what, though.

posted by boredom_08 at 08:43 PM on May 08

That was my point. Had he a regular diet of PE dope he would have recovered so much quicker when injured and had even more power. He would have been the one to break these records, IMHO.

Who's to say that he wasn't? The stuff that A-Rod was using was legal until 2004. Who's to say that any player wasn't using it before that?

posted by dfleming at 08:47 PM on May 08

BI, Ok He may not have outted all the cheaters but he outted himself and McGuire and started the whole spiral. I doubt many people other than the whatshisname who kept a needle with DNA from Roger Clemens' ass will have actual "evidence" that these other players are juicing. Another sad note is going to go to the first person who "isnt" actually using them but gets accused in this witch hunt. I'm sorry but it wouold be difficult to refute for any player at this point.


On another note I saw a great special about steroids on 20/20 last night and these doctors were saying that there is NO evidence that steroids cause any more health problems than any other drug and argued that it should be legalized and prescribed by doctors who could monitor the side affects. They argued that only a very small percentage of people taking steroids get the "roid rage" and the the pro wrestler who killed his family and himslef showed no evidence that he had enough steroids currently in his system to even be affected by that side affect. They stated that steroids COULD NOT have caused Lyle Alzedo's brain tumor and that Advil had as many serious side affects as most anabolic steroids.

DISCLAIMER: I am not defending or advocating the use of steroids nor do I know enough about medicine to render an opinion on whether those doctors are right or wrong. I saw the special, thought about this thread and decided to throw it into the discussion :)

I will also look for the strory and post the link here if I find it.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020

On this page is the actual clip you can watch, look for the buldging guy bench pressing and click that link.

posted by firecop at 10:25 AM on May 09

Sorry was not around a computer yesterday. i was at the DR, getting my foot removed from my mouth. I guess I am just a sucker. There really is no one you can trust in baseball anymore.

posted by Debo270 at 12:01 PM on May 09

firecop, I watched that video, and I'm not sure that claiming any drug is as safe as any other drug is really a compelling argument, the argument is whether or not the drug is safe. One doctor saying they are safe really doesn't sway me much when the main "character" in the video says that he had his breasts removed because he was doing steroids. If they cause men to have to have a body part removed I find it impossible to side with the argument that the drugs are safe.

I had lunch yesterday with a friend that used to be a professional trainer/body builder. She used to be a heavy steroid user, but quit them when she saw all the issues associated with them starting to happen to her. The rage, and various physical changes became too much for her to be able to condone continued use. I need more than one doctor in a ABC 20/20 interview to convince me that steroids are totally safe, or anywhere near as safe as Advil.

posted by dviking at 01:44 PM on May 09

STEROIDS! - "We don't give a shit if they are safe!"

(This PSA brought to you by professional athletes from all around the world)

posted by BoKnows at 02:55 PM on May 09

Dviking,

DISCLAIMER: I am not defending or advocating the use of steroids nor do I know enough about medicine to render an opinion on whether those doctors are right or wrong. I saw the special, thought about this thread and decided to throw it into the discussion :)

"technically" men have breasts and there ares diseases out there that cause them to become enlarged and pronounced much like a steroid may do. I'm not saying they are "good for you" but if you take ibubrofen every day and you get stomach cancer there is a problem in both areas.

I for one think men who take viagra despite the fact that you could get a boner for two days that requires scalpels and needles to enter your junk is more of a risk than I am willing to take.

Again I'm not saying the doctor is right I'm just adding it to the debate that there are very valid points to be made.

posted by firecop at 04:02 PM on May 09

I am a Dodgers fan. When Manny comes back and hits that first homerun, I'll cheer like mad then hate myself later.

posted by Newbie Walker at 04:19 PM on May 09

dude, I was just stating my point, I wasn't calling you out.

But, since you are taking a more aggressive stance in your latest post...so your logic is since there are other diseases that may cause issues in men's breasts, that somehow makes steroids safe. Or, because someone might develop stomach cancer if they abuse ibubrofen (ibuprofen?), that again, that somehow justifies steroid use. Not sure I get those arguments.

One of the biggest concerns with steroids is that allowing them creates a scenario in which high school kids take them (think ARod). Not a healthy scene.

As to Viagra...glad I don't need it :)

posted by dviking at 04:21 PM on May 09

Again I'm not saying the doctor is right I'm just adding it to the debate that there are very valid points to be made.

Points related to what?

I thought the MLB rule was to ban the drugs because they are performance enhancers - asterisk-ing up the record book - not because they were unsafe. Selig is concerned with the integrity of the game, not the health of the players.

The steroid safety issue can be debated back and forth. For every person that says they can be used safely, there is another user that is dead.

posted by BoKnows at 05:04 PM on May 09

I suppose it's just like anything else... I mean, Clemens and Pettitte were pitching for the Yankees championship teams when they were supposedly juicing.

There's suspected steroid users on every single world series team since 1995, with the 2000 yankees having the most: Jose Canseco, Roger Clemens, Chuck Knoblauch, Andy Pettitte, Jason Grimsley, David Justice.

I doubt many people other than the whatshisname who kept a needle with DNA from Roger Clemens' ass will have actual "evidence" that these other players are juicing. Another sad note is going to go to the first person who "isnt" actually using them but gets accused in this witch hunt. I'm sorry but it wouold be difficult to refute for any player at this point.

Your sad note seems to be a strawman argument until it actually happens. Unless you doubt the mountain of evidence against Clemens and Bonds, the last 2, manny and arod, have failed test. I don't see much finger pointing without merit. Actual evidence? I'm not sure what you want. Video of injections?

It's going to be difficult to get actual evidence when you have players doing everything they can to avoid it (though I disagree that the ton of paperwork in the Bonds case, Pettitte's own words, and failed tests aren't 'actual' evidence).

posted by justgary at 05:29 PM on May 09

As to Viagra...glad I don't need it :)

I recently read that viagra was becoming a problem with high school and college kids. However, um, good they have it, they want it better.

I mean, Arod has as much talent as anyone in baseball. He's in the .000001 percentile of athletes, and he used steroids. I don't think need has much to do with it.

posted by justgary at 05:32 PM on May 09

Dviking I wasnt calling you out at all I was just responding to your post :) And as I feared despite my X2 disclaimer Im getting labeled as steroid proponent to which I am not.

My point was that there are doctors who refute the alleged lethality of steroids. The FDA approves all kinds of drugs that are not neccessarily for the treatment of some disease. Botox is essentially botulism yet the FDA allows it to be injected into the lips of Americans every day. Im not saying that because a disease can enlarge a mans breasts it means steroids are safe, I'm "asking" how big of a deal that side affect is in the eyes of doctors who prescribe medicines with far riskier side affects. I guess I'd take a third nipple over a stroke, call me crazy.

Boknows, Thats just the point, these "doctors", not rabid sports fans, are saying there just arent any "bodies" attributed to steroids and in fact say that if doctors could prescribe them they could be used with fewer side affect. Also I wasnt talking about MLB's stance on the PED aspect, I just saw the fucking video on the safety of the stroids and the "fiction of Lyle Alzado's death by roid". and thought I'd bring it to the debate. Trust me , Im sorry I did.

Justgary, I'm a peace officer and I deal in evidence "beyond a reasonable doubt" for criminals and by a "preponderance of evidence" (51% of jurors) for civil cases. Evidence comes in many forms and historically, the least trustworth is the "eyewitness" unless there is more than one. My concern is that, much like the Salem witch trials, I see this going in the direction (in the court of public opinion) where a whisper reaches the media and all of us who have seen MLB players, one after another get caught automatically presume the guilt of a player who didnt use it. I agree, Pettits admission, Bonds paperwork (though i doubt receipts were given for illegal substances:) and test results are all "evidence". Im waiting to see when it turns to rumors and hearsay and that becomes enough to presume a players guilt. Of course evidence will be difficult to obtain from those conspiring to hide their activities. Thats what criminals/cheaters do. It's why we only catch the really stupid or unlucky criminals.

posted by firecop at 10:50 AM on May 10

I just saw the fucking video on the safety of the stroids and the "fiction of Lyle Alzado's death by roid". and thought I'd bring it to the debate. Trust me , Im sorry I did.

Relax, firecop. I just didn't see how the 20/20 interview related to the thread.

posted by BoKnows at 12:45 PM on May 10

hincadenza,

Not all that irrational.....I just don't like Barry Bonds as a person. While I will certainly acknowledge his skills as a player....His basic demeanor has always put me off! His stats (presumably..pre-juicing)..certainly would have put him imto the HOF anyway...,but, that wasn't GOOD ENOUGH! Bonds felt that McGuire and Sosa (fellow enhancers I guess!), got far too much ink so, he had to go one better! Living in Wisconsin, I get to live through the Brett Favre saga (Sad as it is!) but, I can also hold onto Hank Aaron, Bart Starr, Vince Lombardi, Robin Yount, Ray Nitschke, Paul Molitor, Warren Spahn, Johnny Logan, Sidney Moncrief, Lew Alcindor (Abdul Jabbar) and of course...Bob Uecker....All but Moncrief, in their respective HOF's. As I've stated here...Pete Rose belongs...and so does Barry but, I don't have to like either individual do I?

posted by R_A_Mason at 12:15 AM on May 12

As I've stated here...Pete Rose belongs...and so does Barry but, I don't have to like either individual do I?

Not at all. Just respect what they did on the field, them as people has nothing to do with what they did as baseball players.

posted by BornIcon at 01:55 PM on May 14

You're not logged in. Please log in or register.