FanDuel - WFBC

January 14, 2007

Chargers flushed, Peyton vs. Brady again : Plus, LT got in a fight at the end of the tight game, it apparently had something to do with Shawne Merriman.

posted by LA_Dude to football at 07:49 PM - 244 comments

Same ol' same ol'. Or is it just me?

posted by DrJohnEvans at 08:02 PM on January 14

Key play of the game: Schottenheimer's inexplicable use of the review flag on a SD fumble, although I don't recall the exact play, when it was clear it was a possession and a fumble/strip of the ball recovered by NE. It wasted a timeout, and proved costly at the end of the game. They have people in the booths who can tell them if it's worth going for, and that one was so obviously not going to be overturned it ended up costing a timeout that was much needed at the end of the 4th. On that last drive that one more timeout to stop the clock might have given SD another play, and a chance to grab another few yards. Even if they don't get a first down on that last part of the drive, they could have gotten one more play in, then spike the ball and possibly a little bit more room that makes that FG successful at the end of regulation. Doesn't get them the win, but that waste of a timeout might have gotten them the loss. Congratulations to NE, who are looking like their usual January selves: eke out something close time and time again, yet they keep winning. I really am curious who in the pick'em will actually choose an Indy team that's looking kind of shabby of late, much less against a NE team that has owned them the last few years. I have to imagine that the Colts were watching this game and home, and really hoping the Chargers would win: can't envy them a week of questions regarding whether they can beat the Patriots- that kind of stuff has to play on your mind.

posted by hincandenza at 08:04 PM on January 14

Tom Brady is 12-1 in the playoffs I wonder how many of those games were won by 4 or less.

posted by apoch at 08:19 PM on January 14

Schottenheimer's booth screwed him on the replay challenge. He's not in a position to judge whether the play might have been reversed. Still, though, you gotta wonder when one of the league's winningest all-time coaches will put it together in the playoffs. I was rooting hard for San Diego to meet Indy. That way, at least one postseason curse would be over -- Schottenheimer or Manning.

posted by rcade at 08:21 PM on January 14

Chargers made some bonehead mistakes like not falling on the ball after fumbling a punt. Dropping an easy pick. Dropping catches. Not taking advantage of turnovers. Reviewing an obvious fumble but I don't blame Marty on that. Re: LT got in a fight at the end of the tight game.....Can you back that up? I haven't seen any other indication of that, although I must admit I was so disgusted that I walked out after the missed field goal. Did I miss something?

posted by hoyty at 08:31 PM on January 14

Tom Brady is 12-1 in the playoffs I wonder how many of those games were won by 4 or less. 6 of those 12 games were won by 4 or less -- each of the 3 Super Bowls and 3 divisional contests (including today). • Jan. 14, 2007 - AFC Divisional - New England 24, San Diego 21 • Feb. 6, 2005 - Super Bowl XXXIX - New England 24, Philadelphia 21 • Feb. 1, 2004 - Super Bowl XXXVIII - New England 32, Carolina 29 • Jan. 10, 2004 - AFC Divisional - New England 17, Tennessee 14 • Feb. 3, 2002 - Super Bowl XXXVI - New England 20, St. Louis 17 • Jan. 19, 2002 - AFC Divisional - New England 16, Oakland 13 (OT) [Source] Incidentally, today was the first game of those 6 in which an Adam Vinatieri field goal did not account for the final margin of victory.

posted by holden at 08:32 PM on January 14

apoch: Tom Brady is 12-1 in the playoffs I wonder how many of those games were won by 4 or less.
Wonder no more, apoch: the answer is six, or exactly half the wins are by a field goal's margin. Which almost begs for the outcome of next week's Indy-NE game to be decided somehow by Vinatieri attempting a FG at the end of regulation: either nailing it to beat NE by 3, or missing it to cause the Colts to lose by 3 or less. :)
• Win (3) - Jan. 14, 2007 - AFC Divisional - New England 27, San Diego 23 • Win (21) - Jan. 7, 2007 - AFC Wild Card - New England 37, NY Jets 16 • Loss(14) - Jan. 14, 2006 - AFC Divisional - Denver 27, New England 13 • Win (25) - Jan. 7, 2006 - AFC Wild Card - New England 28, Jacksonville 3 • Win (3) - Feb. 6, 2005 - Super Bowl XXXIX - New England 24, Philadelphia 21 • Win (14) - Jan. 23, 2005 - NFC Championship - New England 41, Pittsburgh 27 • Win (17) - Jan. 16, 2005 - AFC Divisional - New England 20, Indianapolis 3 • Win (3) - Feb. 1, 2004 - Super Bowl XXXVIII - New England 32, Carolina 29 • Win (10) - Jan. 18, 2004 - AFC Championship - New England 24, Indianapolis 14 • Win (3) - Jan. 10, 2004 - AFC Divisional - New England 17, Tennessee 14 • Win (3) - Feb. 3, 2002 - Super Bowl XXXVI - New England 20, St. Louis 17 • Win (7) - Jan. 27, 2002 - AFC Championship - New England 24, Pittsburgh 17 • Win (3) - Jan. 19, 2002 - AFC Divisional - New England 16, Oakland 13 (OT)

posted by hincandenza at 08:35 PM on January 14

Dammit holden!

posted by hincandenza at 08:35 PM on January 14

Key play of the game: Schottenheimer's inexplicable use of the review flag on a SD fumble, although I don't recall the exact play, when it was clear it was a possession and a fumble/strip of the ball recovered by NE. I disagree, as I think it's almost impossible to choose just one. You could go with: * Schottenheimer choosing to go for it on 4-11 at the New England 30 in the first quarter despite having the AFC Pro Bowl kicker on his sideline, or * the inexplicably stupid penalty taken by San Diego's Florence for unnecessary roughness. If he doesn't act the big man and try to show up one of the Patriots, it's a 51-yard attempt and New England might even punt, or * the interception and subsequent fumble by San Diego's McCree. He goes down with the ball and the game could have been over with a first down or two, or * the decision to kick the field goal with :08 on the clock from 54 yards out. So, your kicker can't make one from 47 yards in the first quarter, but you think he can nail it from 54 on the last play of the game? Why the Chargers didn't try a quick 8-yard out is beyond me -- there was plenty of time to get off a quick route to the sideline, and if it failed, it would've only taken 4-5 seconds. I'll say this also -- Florence should have been pulled from the game after the penalty. He's obviously not focusing on the good of the team, and guess who got burned for the late TD by the Pats? You guessed it. As for the discussion at midfield at the end of the game, I believe LT was voicing his displeasure with one of the Patriots after said player danced around on the field right after the game. One of the announcers mentioned something about showboating and not doing it outside your own park. Hey, that's fine, LT, but if you want to slap someone upside the head, I'd suggest you go find Eric Parker.

posted by wfrazerjr at 08:38 PM on January 14

I love this site. I knew all I had to do was ask and voila! Answers abound. Thank you both.

posted by apoch at 08:40 PM on January 14

Dammit holden! Great minds, etc.

posted by holden at 08:45 PM on January 14

I really am curious who in the pick'em will actually choose an Indy team that's looking kind of shabby of late, much less against a NE team that has owned them the last few years. I have to imagine that the Colts were watching this game and home, and really hoping the Chargers would win: can't envy them a week of questions regarding whether they can beat the Patriots- that kind of stuff has to play on your mind. I'll take Indy. As far as owning Indy, Indy has won the last 3 meetings. That monkey fell off a long time ago. I also doubt the colts were rooting for the Chargers because that would have meant the Colts would have had to travel to San Diego. Now they get to play in their dome at home. I don't mean anything negative towards the Pats, but I believe the Colts would much rather be playing this 1 at home than going to cali to face LT.

posted by louisville_slugger at 08:47 PM on January 14

Yeah, you're probably right. But they'll still lose- they can't beat NE in the post-season. =P

posted by hincandenza at 08:52 PM on January 14

Slugger, Indy has won the last two, not three. Both were in Foxboro though. Hal, you really think the team that's 9-0 at home this year was rooting for the Chargers to win so they'd have to go on the road and stop LT instead of have a home game next week? Are you serious? I was more surprised about NE punting on 4th and 2 in SD territory early in the 4th than I was by SD going on that 4th and 11. I thought that was a good decision. I've always been pretty firmly in the anti-punt camp. But you can't ask for much worse than what happened on that play. One thing that was painfully clear watching that game: Philip Rivers has no business being on the AFC Pro Bowl squad over Tom Brady. The voters should be embarassed.

posted by Bernreuther at 08:54 PM on January 14

Great game. As for LaT (yes LaT not LT until he wins a big game): It is easy to be gracious while the accolades and awards are coming in. You can tell more about a man's character when he faces adversity than you can while he is winning. He was pissed that he lost and didn't want to shake hand or hear "what a great season you had" by those that beat him. I was not impressed by his sportsmanship at all.

posted by urall cloolis at 08:57 PM on January 14

I'll take Indy. As far as owning Indy, Indy has won the last 3 meetings. That monkey fell off a long time ago. I also doubt the colts were rooting for the Chargers because that would have meant the Colts would have had to travel to San Diego. Now they get to play in their dome at home. The Colts have actually only won the last two meetings -- NE beat the Colts in the 2004 playoffs (actually played in 2005, but after the 2004 season), and the Colts subsequently beat the Patriots in the regular season in 2005 and this year. The big difference here, though (at least as I see it), is that the Colts are at home. Not that that's a huge obstacle for the Patriots, who obviously can and do win on the road, but I think it's a boost for Manning and some of the supporting cast who have looked lost in the playoffs at Foxboro. On preview, what Bernreuther said. What goes around comes around, I suppose.

posted by holden at 08:59 PM on January 14

The Colts have actually only won the last two meetings Ya got me. For some reason I was thinking last years playoffs too, but that didn't happen. As a Colts fan, this game does scare the hell out of me, but I like our chances this time around at home especially. There will be more hype for this game than the superbowl. I can't wait till till next weekend!

posted by louisville_slugger at 09:14 PM on January 14

I think Brady would rather have another title than a free trip to Hawaii- he can probably go there all he wants in the off-season. Bernreuther: well, not really serious. Obviously they'd rather face the Patriots than the Chargers for all manner of reasons. But you know that they'll also dread the inevitable questions of "You've been here before, and each time the Patriots found a way to beat you. What has changed?" before the game. Then again, that may prove to be a motivator. In any event, I expect a close game between these two. And I do question anyone who picks Indy in our pick'em, because you're just going to get burned again. :)

posted by hincandenza at 09:15 PM on January 14

There will be more hype for this game than the superbowl. There shouldn't be. Haven't we learned anything from the college bowls this year?

posted by tron7 at 09:33 PM on January 14

very good points all of you guys...now some clarifications... 1.) LT got into a fight with several of the New England Patriots after the game because these individuals were celebrating on the center logo by mocking Shawne Merriman's dance. LT was defending his teammate, and yes, while I disagree with his actions, I'm more upset with the Patriot players. They SHOULD know better than that to act that way, let alone after a win. Where was the honest humility that this team displayed during their run of 3 superbowls in 4 years? 2.) I think that there's even more pressure for Peyton Manning this week. They have home field, their defense has saved the offense for two straight weeks, and they've shown that they can beat New England IN Foxboro (doing it twice in the regular season, including this year). That said, if Manning puts out another dud this week, I think we can begin talking about Manning's legacy as that of one who couldn't win it when it matters most, an unfair account, but the truth. 3.) The time is ticking on Martyball in San Diego. Will the Chargers let him go after losing another playoff game? In all honesty, Marty didn't fumble the ball after McCree intercepted Brady (can we honestly say that Troy Brown IS the definition of versatility in this day and age). However, Marty DID throw that challenge flag. Marty DID neglect his Pro Bowl kicker. Marty DID not use LT to the fullest capacity (25 touches is nice, but in a game of this caliber, I felt that the Chargers did not use LT enough. 30+ was probably necessary). Throw in Shottenheimer's feud with A.J. Smith, and the Chargers could have a new coach patroling the sidelines next year. 4.) Now, can we get a little love for the NFC too? Chicago probably doesn't deserve any because they kept Seattle in the game for far too long, but Rex Grossman made the plays he had to in order for the Bears to pull it out. However, to beat New Orleans, the Bears need their D to return to early season form (not likely, but I did see some glances of it today), and they need the Rex Grossman of the first half and overtime to come out and lead the team. That said, I'm taking the Saints in the NFC Championship game because they just have too many weapons and that feel of destiny on hand...its inexplainable I guess. That's all for now. Indy's been my superbowl team all year, so its too late to turn my back on them now. Go COLTS!

posted by chemwizBsquared at 10:00 PM on January 14

LT didn't get into a fight, he shunned several players who were trying to congratulate him for a great season. He shunned everyone. The players that were disrespecting could care less about shaking his hand. He showed his true colors- which is win with class, lose without any class. As far as the Merrygirl dance-,he danced once all day- on a play he didn't even make. Rivers showed that he can win the big game better than Eli Manning. I am not a Charger hater- yet they give the ammunition and I can't resist. Go ahead and blame Marty- he threw the picks, fumbled, didn't make the plays defensively and of course "blew" the game. Win with class and lose with class. Apparantly no one taught San Diego and its fans how to do the same.

posted by urall cloolis at 10:34 PM on January 14

That said, if Manning puts out another dud this week, I think we can begin talking about Manning's legacy as that of one who couldn't win it when it matters most, an unfair account, but the truth. ...just like how everyone labeled John Elway until 1997.

posted by grum@work at 10:40 PM on January 14

L.T did shake teddy's hand when he walked up to him he just didn't shake any of the players who were mocking merriman L.T is always shown class.New England has been there before they should've acted like it.

posted by urbighomie at 12:24 AM on January 15

L.T may have been upset at the end of the game, but to make the comment that, "It's a reflection of the coach", when a couple of guys dance on the field after winning a game they basicly handed to the Chargers, note- for as many mistakes the bolts made the pats made double, was childlike at best. The fact is it is their house and they let a team come in and smack them around in the second half. Add 2min at the end of the 1st half to that as well. Bills' boys know that you don't have to go 14-2 or 15-1 to be a great team, you just have to know how to win when it counts no matter where you are. Go Pats. There gonna need it.

posted by patsfan73 at 01:02 AM on January 15

They're gonna need it. Sorry for the bad grammer

posted by patsfan73 at 01:03 AM on January 15

Florence was the culprit IMO, the penalties, the blown coverage. Also the fumbled punt return. Really sad that the Chargers could not make the lead stand up, Chargers-Saints would have been sweet in the SB.

posted by billsaysthis at 01:12 AM on January 15

Frazier, Frazier. Where art thou? Any money left in your pocket? 1-3 does not make for a profitable life.

posted by Cave_Man at 02:12 AM on January 15

"The challenge" - Marty caved to an overzealous Philip Rivers who ran up to him after seeing the play on the jumbotron and insisted the player was down before the fumble. It may or may not come out, but it was witnessed and reported by a NE journalist right after the game. Notice that Marty wore his headset after that.

posted by endorfin at 05:29 AM on January 15

Also the fumbled punt return. Pretty sure that was Eric Parker.

posted by yerfatma at 05:43 AM on January 15

LT yesterday,has shown ,he needs some maturity before he can ever be considered great in my book.Shawn Merriman comes out and does his bad robot thing.Several times ,during the game he did the same routine.The Patriots did not respond with head butts or in kind as the Chargers did..Instead they played their game and won.It was a tough victory.I don't blame the Pats for a little salt in the wound for the drug'es taunting of them.For LT not to suck it up after watching his teamates tease the Pats and then think they are not going to get some of it back is a baby in my book.Maybe Merriman should have gone out there?Anyway,goodbye for now to all the hawkers that rather than put the effort into winning on the field,pratice dance skits.Enjoy the big game boys,on HD.(In no particular order)Ray Lewis,Shawn Merriman,Terrell Owens,Chad Johnson,Joey Porter.Go Colts."WER'E GOING TO THE BOWL"

posted by goodknight at 05:55 AM on January 15

Where was the honest humility that this team displayed during their run of 3 superbowls in 4 years? Did it occur to you that this run you speak of in the past tense may still be ongoing? The Patriots didn't win all those games with "honest humility", they won them with superior game-planning, execution and focus, with a dash of underdog resentment. All of which was on display yesterday on the road in a game they probably shouldn't have won. The Chargers, for all their talent, blew this game through mental mistakes. It all started with showboating, one guy dancing 40 yards down the field after an interception, Merriman doing his little dance after a PRESSURE. The unnecessary roughness penalties, the fumbles (two more were overturned on replay). On fourth down, why doesn't McCree just knock the ball down???? Nope, he needs to make a self-aggrandizing return. All kinds of cheap play by San Diego - late in the game one of the Chargers O-linemen grabbed one of the Pats' D-linemen and flung him into Rivers hoping to draw a call. Tomlinson - who I've always liked - going into a ridiculous Miguel Tejada-like hissy fit after things didn't work out the way he wanted them to. The Patriots just hang tough and win. Although they did violate the world football rules of conduct by DARING to violate the sacrosanct temple of the Chargers' center logo with a celebration dance - and by mocking the great, legendary, 100% non-enhanced Shawne Merriman - I will swallow my disgust and continue to root for them. Meanwhile, after all the scrutiny, the Patriots' offseason personnel decisions are looking pretty smart right now. However, Gostkowski will always have a monkey on his back unless (a) he hits every clutch kick for the next few years or (b) Vinatieri misses a crucial kick on Sunday.

posted by Venicemenace at 06:46 AM on January 15

It disappoints me Pats' victories always get tainted like this now. By all accounts LT is a good a person as he is a player. As stated above, however, I think he had some trouble handling the adversity. You could see it on the sidelines in the middle of the game: when Charger players muffed plays he look physically pained, frustrated they weren't as talented as he. I don't understand how they can watch Merriman do that dance every week and then get upset like this: "It was disappointing in the way they handled winning. I mean, for as much as everybody said they expect them to win, they didn’t act like it, but that’s neither here or there. They’re playing next week and we’re not. I think what got L.T. and I right there was a little bit of taunting. It was a little finger-pointing and I don’t know where it came from." - Philip Rivers "You guys know me, I'm a very classy person. I wouldn't have reacted like that, so yes, I was upset. Very upset. When you go to the middle of our field and you start doing the dance that Shawne Merriman is known for, that's disrespectful to me and I can't sit there and watch that. And so yeah, I was very upset. And just the fact the way they showed no class at all, absolutely no class, and maybe it comes from the head coach. There you have it." - LT

posted by yerfatma at 06:50 AM on January 15

Something else to consider about the over-celebrating Pats (I say that as a Pats fan, but after a game with that many mistakes, you have to say thanks and walk away with a bit more humility)...many of the players on the team have not been there for all 3 Super Bowls and probably not even 2 of 3 (percentage not on hand - but I'd guess all of those celebrating).

posted by kokaku at 07:33 AM on January 15

Don't you think that's the general air about Belichick, though? LT's not the first player to start launching arrows at him in a postgame interview. Maybe it's fueled by frustration or maybe they really feel there's some reason to say it. Rivers showed that he can win the big game better than Eli Manning. That's totally irrelevant, nevermind that the two have won the same exact number of playoff games. Zero. Can you win a game "better" than someone else?

posted by YukonGold at 07:34 AM on January 15

As for LaT (yes LaT not LT until he wins a big game): I like that. I like that a lot, cloolis. I am a Michigan fan, and I am a Brady fan, but I'm really starting to dislike the Patriots. They always have to piss in some other teams' cornflakes. There's still a chance to have a feel-good superbowl, though. I'll be rooting for the Colts next week (please let Vinatieri kick the game winner).

posted by wingnut4life at 07:47 AM on January 15

I mentioned in an earlier post that the Chargers would have to overcome the token Marty mistakes in postseason (i'm a chiefs fan, so i am well aware of many of them), and it looks like they were unable to. Marty made some poor decisions, but his players were unable to play above those mistakes. Instead they had dropped passes/punts, and fumbled. It's too bad; they really are a great team. If Marty is your coach, you have got to be prepared to come out and play disciplined, focused football, b/c not only will the opposing team & refs make it tough for you, but your coach will at times sadly. I am hoping the Pats advance. I don't really care much for either AFC team, but i would much rather see Brady continue to win than to see Payton get over the hump. I'm tired of Payton taking in tons of money, then griping when his team isn't good enough come playoff time. You can't have the rings and all the team's money (well, most of the time). I believe Brady restructured his contract at the team's request to bring in needed talent. Result: rings. While Brady's no poor man, the willingness to take a pay cut for the good of the team is still worthy of respect in my book.

posted by brainofdtrain at 07:58 AM on January 15

I picked wrong on the Ravens (mental note defense only wins championships if offense shows up to the game), while the Pats made me look good (even if the game took five years off my life)... Wherever wfrazerjr is I will go ahead and pencil the Colts in as lock of the week for him. The Pats have about as much chance of winning at Indy as say the Sox coming back from down 3-0 against the Yankees.

posted by kyrilmitch_76 at 08:08 AM on January 15

I'm sorry, but I find this sanctimoniousness absurd. A few Patriots players celebrate after an improbable road upset and suddenly the team is a bunch of villains?! The Chargers spent the entire game showboating, dancing, head-butting and running their mouths, but I guess the Patriots are the classless ones. San Diego was already planning its Super Bowl parade, and the Patriots were way out of line to piss in those championship corn flakes. "Over-celebrating"? What does that even mean? All I saw at the end of the game were guys like Reche Caldwell extending a hand to Tomlinson, who knocked it away angrily. Do any of you have evidence of some egregious crime, except through the statements of the childish Tomlinson? Merriman does the dance in the game, even when he hasn't made a play -- that's just fine. Someone else does it - what an asshole! It must be his coach's fault. Anyway, Merriman is a proven cheater with a rap sheet worse than Barry Bonds, who made little difference in the game's outcome despite all the hype. Why does his stupid dance deserve any respect? The fact is, if the Chargers had shown any recognition of the team that they were facing, any respect for their opponent, they would probably still be playing today. But they got way too cocky and didn't put the Patriots away. Brady made them pay for it.

posted by Venicemenace at 08:08 AM on January 15

They SHOULD know better than that to act that way, let alone after a win. Where was the honest humility that this team displayed during their run of 3 superbowls in 4 years? I was surprised by the amount of unsportsmanlike behavior coming from the Patriots during the game. I know some of it was instigated by the Chargers, but that team was new to big playoff expectations. The Patriots know what it takes to win a Super Bowl, and getting chippy in the divisional round seems like uncharacteristic behavior. As for LT, I think it was out of character for him to nurse a grudge after the game, but he did say something in the post-game press conference worthy of praise: "We lost to a better team today."

posted by rcade at 08:26 AM on January 15

Beware the tricorn! If the Pat's create an opportunity to win, they always seem to find a way (Tom Brady) to capitalize on it. Instead of sounding like miffed children (Philip Rivers), maybe the Charger players should take one step back and say how do these guys do this? Learn from your mistakes Bolts...disrespect is the 15 yard penalty for showing your backside and head butting someone after you've done your job and gotten the ball back! LT is without a doubt the best back in the league this year. He lead the league in rushing, set a record for TD's and has shown class and respect in all that he has done. Shawne Merriman had a great year also, leading the league in sacks and creating havoc for opponents offenses in 12 games this year. He got to dance his jig with some regularity all around the league That said, I wonder if LT will ask Shawne to cool it the next time he starts doing his little jig in an opponents stadium because it's totally disrespectful of the other team? I'm thinkin' not.

posted by brbcca at 08:30 AM on January 15

Do any of you have evidence of some egregious crime, except through the statements of the childish Tomlinson? It's all over the press. Several Pats danced on the Chargers logo after the game in mockery of Merriman's sack dance.

posted by rcade at 08:54 AM on January 15

While you make some good points venice, i think that what everyone is partly surprised by is that such a successful postseason team like the pats would be doing anything remotely disrespectful. I understand that there have been some major personnel changes in NE, but that doesn't justify that behavior since there is a major core of the team that remains from the outset of their playoff success. The vets shouldv'e whipped those newbies into shape when appropriate. That being said, i agree with you venice that it is pretty convenient that one team can talk crap and then be scandalized when the favor is returned. That said, I wonder if LT will ask Shawne to cool it the next time he starts doing his little jig in an opponents stadium because it's totally disrespectful of the other team? I'm thinkin' not. Exactly. Everyone does this kind of crap, and while i'm not a big fan of it ever, i think that people need to take it with a grain of salt when they see celebration in some manner at their opponent's stadium. The chargers were pissed b/c they let one get away; i can understand that, but don't deflect that by focusing on being "disrespected." I'm just saying that both sides acted poorly; they both need to put this childish episode behind them and act like professionals again.

posted by brainofdtrain at 09:01 AM on January 15

Regarding Unsportsmanlike conduct post-victory: What? Like this is supposed to surprise anyone, anymore? I find it all very distasteful and not at all entertaining. Is it the decline of the American Empire? No - that's a movie. A good movie. But it's tasteless and moronic and makes the Pats look like a bunch of thin-skinned stupid men. Sorry - that's the price you pay for dancing like you're the man after a squeaker on the road. So, for the remainder of the playoffs the Patriots are now the stupid, infantile team from New England. Such a shame. They should be known as the team with the best QB in the land and a good coach, but they blew it. And I'm not so sure that San Diego should be terribly disappointed. They seem to have some pieces in place that should assure competitiveness for a little while. Everyone has to lose before they get to win.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 09:02 AM on January 15

Hold on now weedy; is one mistake (albeit a pretty moronic one) sufficient to topple the overall class the Patriots organization has shown for the past several years? I hope not, b/c then everyone else is screwed for the rest of the 21st century. Good point on SD though. It's not like they are in the same state as their division rivals, with QB questions, lack of defense, etc, etc

posted by brainofdtrain at 09:07 AM on January 15

Another dumb reason to dance: The Patriots shouldn't be acting like a division round win is worth celebrating. You can give a team like the Saints a pass, since they doubled the franchise's total playoff wins this weekend. But if the Pats are the only dynasty in today's NFL, as their fans will proudly suggest, they should act like one.

posted by rcade at 09:09 AM on January 15

Kokaku, 10 members of the current Patriots' squad were members of all 3 Super Bowl winners. Suffice it to say that they were not the post-game dance team. Most of the comments on the post-game controversy lean toward a bit of hypocrisy on LaT's (thanks, urall) part for seemingly condoning Merriman's actions, but condemning those of the Patriots. I agree with that assessment, but you can bet that the coach he blames will have a few words for the dancers. I think it was Tedy Bruschi that said that there was a lot of trash talking during the game by both sides. If it was enough to get San Diego off of their game and break their concentration, so be it. In his comments after the game, Tom Brady had a definition of mental toughness that included maintaining one's focus on the task at hand despite adversity and distraction. One final comment from "Howard_T's Dictionary": Martyball (Mar' . tee . bawl) n (From football coach M. Schottenheimer): To suffer defeat due to a failure to properly prepare your team or yourself for a postseason contest.

posted by Howard_T at 09:14 AM on January 15

Wow. You guys are acting as if the entire Patriots team did a choreographed Electric Slide transitioning into the Lights Out dance at midfield, with Belichick acting as drum major, followed by everyone taking a poop on the midfield logo. Wait - only a few players danced for a few moments in mockery of a player who has hardly earned unstinting respect, and who openly guaranteed a win before the game?! It's all over the press. Exactly, the media is creating a frenzy, as they love to do, over a total non-issue. Buying into it much?

posted by Venicemenace at 09:21 AM on January 15

I'm buying into it totally. The Pats' act of unsportsmanship becomes one of the storylines of the playoffs and should make next year's Chargers visit to Foxboro a can't-miss game. Chargers LB Shaun Phillips is so fired up about this he slipped into third person: "Every time I will play New England it will be a personal grudge. That was very classless. ... When we went in and beat their head in New England (last season), blew them out, we did nothing but compliment them and say they were a good team. We would never disrespect a team like that. We have class, and that's how classless individuals are. Shaun Phillips will have a grudge against them the rest of his career." Rogers Cadenhead likes that very much.

posted by rcade at 09:35 AM on January 15

I know trash talking, dancing and mockery have sadly become part of the game, but my personal unified theory of sportsmanship says that the absolute bright line rule is that this stops at the final whistle. One of the stark juxtapositions of violent organized sports is that large men who are quite literally trying to inflict pain (or worse) upon one another during the game drop all hatred and violent desires at the end of the game and hug, shake hands, etc. and put all of the ill will and showmanship behind them. I didn't see the post-game incident yesterday, but it sounds like it violated this rule.

posted by holden at 09:45 AM on January 15

Wait - only a few players danced for a few moments in mockery of a player who has hardly earned unstinting respect, and who openly guaranteed a win before the game?! Shh Venice, you're screwing up the anti-Patriots argument with these tales of reality and truth. Cut it out.

posted by jerseygirl at 09:48 AM on January 15

this stops at the final whistle. Technically, there were a few seconds left on the clock when this "incident" occurred. The Patriots got the ball back afterwards and downed it to end the game. At that point the victors were ready to shake hands and call it a day but the Chargers were in a frenzy of anger that they then made very public, taking shots at Belichick, etc. You stay classy, San Diego. My bias is obvious in this matter, so I won't continue to belabor the point against a clear consensus of disgust. Let the media storylines for next week's game begin!!!!! Manning needs to shake his playoff slump!!!!! Hopefully someone has a sick mother or dying puppy that Jim Nance can discuss during the game.

posted by Venicemenace at 09:52 AM on January 15

I don't mean this sarcastically, but i honestly wonder how much of this blowup is over the now very real possibility that the Patriot's win another SB? If you are a fan of another AFC team, then possibly that is why the Patriots dumb move is so extra offensive. If i was say a miami or buffalo fan, then this would give me some ammo to hate an otherwise classy organization who has up to this point dominated the 21sat cnetury NFL.

posted by brainofdtrain at 09:59 AM on January 15

Howard, then the Pats still fall short b/c the 10 players who have helped cement a legacy in NE should have grabbed them by the necks and told them to quit being idiots.

posted by brainofdtrain at 10:02 AM on January 15

What do you expect from the Patriots? The perception that New England is "classy" is a joke. Arrogant, cocky, full of themselves, but definitely not classy. FYI for all of you knuckleheads, NE didn't win the game, SD lost it.

posted by whitedog65 at 10:07 AM on January 15

"When we went in and beat their head in New England (last season), blew them out, we did nothing but compliment them and say they were a good team. We would never disrespect a team like that." Well sure, except your coach, in trying to be polite, suggested the Pats were done as a franchise. And you said during halftime of last week's playoff (whilst wearing a unitard or a ladies' A-shirt on backwards) you were sure the Jets would come back and win. And you groused about not winning Defensive MVP even though you missed a quarter of the season due to a steroid suspension. rcade, I wouldn't say the Patriots' actions were surprising. They've always done that to teams, especially those that talk (hint to San Diego: don't let it get out in the press that you're planning your Super Bowl parade route). The year they beat the 15-1 Steelers in the AFC Championship they spent the last quarter openly mocking the fans with Terrible Towels. The other high(low)light from that game was Deion Branch waving at the DB he burnt on the long TD. Chargers v. Pats definitely goes on the list with v. Indy and Denver and Jets and half of the Pats schedule until they stop winning. A final aside to Shawn Merriman: it's not the '80s, coke isn't cool anymore and you're not part of the New York Sack Exchange. You shouldn't have a dance and you shouldn't be carving things into your hair, MC Serch.

posted by yerfatma at 10:08 AM on January 15

you shouldn't be carving things into your hair, MC Serch I can't believe that's back. Will players be wearing "Hammer" pants in their off-day interviews next year or what.

posted by YukonGold at 10:15 AM on January 15

NE didn't win the game, SD lost it. I take your point - the Chargers should have put it away while they had the momentum. However, even after all the penalties, fumbles, etc, Brady still had to make a 50-yard completion - almost a touchdown if Caldwell could have stayed in bounds - and the rookie kicker still had to hit the go-ahead field goal with a ridiculous amount of pressure on him and wind in his face. How you can claim that the Patriots deserve no credit for that drive is beyond me. Considering what happened to Dallas, this isn't even the worst meltdown of the 2007 playoffs so far.

posted by Venicemenace at 10:17 AM on January 15

If i was say a miami or buffalo fan, then this would give me some ammo to hate an otherwise classy organization who has up to this point dominated the 21sat cnetury NFL. Good lord it hasn't taken Boston fans long to become competely insufferable in triumph. The Patriots still have to go to the Indianapolis Speedway and beat the Colts, something they didn't have to do the last two times they met in the playoffs. Let's not fit them for rings just yet.

posted by rcade at 10:17 AM on January 15

Howard, then the Pats still fall short No argument here, braino, but perhaps they were otherwise occupied looking for some Chargers in order to shake their hands. I gather from a lot of the above comments that the Patriots are becoming somewhat disliked due to their success. Is the New England organization becoming the New York Yankees of the NFL? Please say it isn't so; I couldn't stand being a fan of anything mentioned in the same breath as the NYY.

posted by Howard_T at 10:45 AM on January 15

This SD loss just reinforces my NFL theory.In the playoffs and the Superbowl, losers keep on losing.Look at Buffalo and Minnesota.Denver finally broke through. For this reason and the fact that the Pats beat a better team on the road,I'd be very afraid if I was Indy.

posted by sickleguy at 11:15 AM on January 15

In the playoffs and the Superbowl, losers keep on losing. Just a quick reminder: Tampa Bay won a Super Bowl and they were one of the worst franchises in North American sports history. New England won their first Super Bowl after being humiliated twice. So really, your statement is "Losers keep losing until they win.", which isn't that much of a grand pronouncement or "theory" to brag about.

posted by grum@work at 11:41 AM on January 15

There are newspaper message boards for that sort of trolling. This is a different sort of Round Table.

posted by yerfatma at 11:53 AM on January 15

I'm one of these Miami fans mentioned up thread and I saw nothing wrong with Sunday's events. LDT, (as we call him here), was probably, (understandably), upset that his amazing season led to him getting the same number of superbowl rings as Joey Harrington, but, seriously, get over it. Merriman did his little dance during the game after he got within waving distance of Brady. At least the Patriots' impromptu dance squad actually had something to celebrate.

posted by Mr Bismarck at 12:21 PM on January 15

God bless you JG.

posted by hawkguy at 12:32 PM on January 15

I think it was 1st quarter 4th down,what would have been a 48 yard field goal try Marty decides to try and make the first down,TURNover..........hey San Diego the saying here in K.C when we had Marty was he'll take you to the bar and let you have a drink but he won't let you get drunk.He'll take you to the playoffs but he won't take you all the way..If i was the CHIEFS i would go get Donnie Edwards back and get rid of that joke Kendrell Bell.

posted by nafsfeihc at 12:33 PM on January 15

I still would like to know where the unsportsmanlike conduct calls were on the Patriots DB slugging the Chargers WR in the head (ref looking right at it) and the Patriots DL punching the Chargers QB in the head. Why aren't those penalties? I'm sure it has nothing to do with the league catering to the Patriots, does it. Sorry, at one time I could've put in all the names, but I have kids now so the only name I knew for sure was QB Rivers. I realize that these in themselves didn't cost the Chargers the game, but they didn't help. Especially since the refs didn't hesitate to throw the same type of flag on the Chargers. I'm sick of hearing how great the Patriots are and I actually used to kind of like them, but they are so OVER-RATED and on the right side of so many calls, that I can't stand them anymore. They are the NFL's version of the Jordan Bulls and it smells.

posted by hellamarine at 12:35 PM on January 15

Hellamarine, nobody punched Rivers in the head. TIVO it up. The Pats D-lineman was being held from behind and was practically tossed into Rivers, who flopped like he was a World Cup striker flying through the penalty box. But as far as blown calls go, how about Tomlinson's obvious face-mask on Rosevelt Colvin? His hand just slipped over the face mask? Huh, that's funny, why did Colvin go down then? We could play this game all day. There were good calls and bad calls on both sides. Why don't you show some of that patented San Diego class and accept that your team wasn't good enough to close it out? The NFL clearly favors high-powered offensive stars in their marketing efforts; it would make ZERO sense for them to fix this game in favor of the Patriots. How can a team be overrated that consistently makes it deep into the playoffs and has won a few trophies? Nothing you say makes any sense upon closer reflection.

posted by Venicemenace at 12:46 PM on January 15

Hold on now weedy; is one mistake (albeit a pretty moronic one) sufficient to topple the overall class the Patriots organization has shown for the past several years? No, it shouldn't (and it won't if they win) - but I think NE has done a few things this year to sully that "classy" reputation. Belichek vs. Mangini when the Jets won was one. The fact is that the Pats "classy" reputation was probably a misnomer, or a case of a bad choice of words. That whole rep is founded on basically having a super-cute-and-amazingly-awesome-aw-shucks Tom Brady, and to a lesser extent a couple good guys in Bruschi, Troy Brown and a few others. Really - they're a competent organization that has manage to succeed despite constant turnover. I'm not sure exactly how that really translates into "classy". But really - have they been the least bit "classy" this year? Certainly not on Sunday, when it would count the most. And not on a few other occassions. Ah - football teams aren't classy. They're football teams. This is keeping in mind that the Pats are my favorite team. I was disappointed with the dancing. I too, thought it unnecessary and tasteless.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 12:54 PM on January 15

You don't know what you are talking about menace, because I am not a Chargers fan or I would know the team members names. I am really close to quitting on the NFL like I did on the NBA. Oh, and for the Tomlinson call I was shocked that they didn't let it stand even though at full-speed it didn't look like he grabbed it (I know the replay showed he did). Woo-hoo, San Diego got by with one thing while the Pats get by with almost everything. BTW, the DL did punch Rivers, I watched the replay and it is obvious.

posted by hellamarine at 12:54 PM on January 15

I'm so sick of this country and the bandwagon jumping. Oh, the Patriots are winning, I'm a Patriots fan. The whole place is about the flavor of the month. BTW, the challenge of the fumble on the interception was, I think, a ploy by Marty to get his defense some time to settle back down. In hindsight it didn't work, but I don't think that it was a bad call. And to the Chiefs fan who was Marty-hating I would just like to say, who has been a better coach than Marty for the Chiefs organization in the last 30 years? As a Chiefs fan myself, I am sick of all the Marty bashing here. Get over it! He took us to the playoffs 9 straight years. How many other coaches did that? Oh, and he did it with an anemic offense.

posted by hellamarine at 01:06 PM on January 15

So what are you saying, hellamarine --- the game was fixed? Why overturn those two fumbles then? I realized about one second after releasing my last post that I may have mistakenly pegged you for a Chargers fan. Maybe it was the fact that you just showed up today, unloading all your ammunition on the Patriots. My bad.

posted by Venicemenace at 01:14 PM on January 15

Please stop. What DL punched Philip Rivers? If you're talking about the thing with Wilfork at the end of the game, you are mistaken, as suggested above. Wilfork was pushed into the QB and Rivers flopped. As a Pats homer, I've spent the whole season yelling at the refs for clearly having fixed the games to make the Pats lose, so clearly different folks see things differently. 'Cuz remember when the Chargers TE got hit somewhere on the field one time by someone and he might have fumbled but it was ruled a something-or-other? Me too. I think NE has done a few things this year to sully that "classy" reputation. Belichek vs. Mangini when the Jets won was one. Personally, I think the Belichick/ Mangini thing was turned into a story by the media. Bill banging some other guy's wife for years, now that's classy.

posted by yerfatma at 01:19 PM on January 15

There's still a chance to have a feel-good superbowl, though. I'll be rooting for the Colts next week (please let Vinatieri kick the game winner). Sorry, wingnut, I gotta take exception to that. Peyton Manning has never done anything feel-good for me. He's got boatloads of talents and skill, but his attitude makes it impossible for me to root for him: just the way he seems to abandon his teammates and blame everyone else when things go wrong.

posted by DrJohnEvans at 01:32 PM on January 15

Right, because he obviously caught that ball. The Pats get bad calls, Holy Crap! Guess I missed those games.

posted by hellamarine at 01:32 PM on January 15

Well fatma, since you saw that as a catch, I guess I can understand how you could see that as not a punch.

posted by hellamarine at 01:36 PM on January 15

Face it, in this day of NFL parity, the only way for continued succes is a little help from your friends (the refs and the league).

posted by hellamarine at 01:38 PM on January 15

Yeah, I saw the "punch" live and the replay. A chargers player was holding onto the Patriot and rotated him which ended up putting his hand into Rivers head. It wasn't a deliberate punch. Since you seem so determined to decry the refs as conspirators, find some video proof that I'm wrong.

posted by apoch at 01:41 PM on January 15

who flopped like he was a World Cup striker flying through the penalty box. I thought it was only a Vlade Divac level flop myself. Damn funny though.

posted by tron7 at 01:55 PM on January 15

Re: Marty coming back next season. Look it, I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with who knows more than I. Most of you follow this 24/7 and I don't but this has been bothering me all morning. How can anyone say that Marty should be gone? He just led them to their best record in Charger history and the best record in the NFL this year. Yes I'm disturbed as to how poorly they played yesterday. Being a fan since Air-Coryal I'm used to many heartbreaks. Bobby Ross didn't get along with Beathard. So what. I guess this explains why I've been an Oakland A's fan for so many years. Boy do I know how to pick them. One last note. About 5 or 6 weeks ago I made a post stating that Indy was the team to beat. I got shot down for that remark by everyone. The response was Baltimore and San Diego were the teams to beat. Sometimes it's better not to know as much.

posted by hoyty at 01:59 PM on January 15

Very surprised by the dancing celebration by the few of the Pat's players at mid-field.But I'm actually more disappointed of the way LT spoke about how classless the Patriots were and his crying after a tough loss.Being a N.E. fan,I wish we had a Tomlinson in our backfield.I always thought L.T.was a quiet,classy player who would take defeat in a more professional way.I don't think he remembered the way he almost ripped Colvins head off with that non-called face mask penality.Maybe the better team didn't win on paper,but as everyone knows,you don't give Brady a chance to win a game with just minutes to go in any game.The few Chargers that were talking trash all week are now going to be watching from their couches,while the best team of the 2000's are now going to try to win their 4th Super Bowl in 6 years.But they have to get by the Colts first.And I believe that after taking care of the Bolts,Belechick and Co.will come up with a game plan to take care of the Colts.I just hope that Brady has a better day than he had yesterday,even though they won.

posted by Ghastly1 at 02:01 PM on January 15

You have a valid point, DrJ. I don't really appreciate his holier-than-thou attitude. He would not give Ty Law any lick of credit for schooling him on interceptions. But I still want to see Vinatieri kick the game winner.

posted by wingnut4life at 02:23 PM on January 15

As a Pats homer, I've spent the whole season yelling at the refs... yerfatma, are you sure that you aren't me? My son says I'm the worst in the world with my conspiracy theories about how the games are rigged to keep them close until the last quarter, just so the TV audience won't tune out too early. hellamarine, there were a number of calls that weren't made that went both ways. in addition to those called out above, I remember an uncalled holding that prevented Bruschi from making a tackle on a LaT run for good yardage (offensive lineman behind Bruschi with both arms wrapped around Bruschi's torso and clearly impeding him). There was also a clear but close pass interference penalty early on that was not called. My point is that the old saw "It all depends upon whose ox is being gored" certainly applies to any sporting event that is played and judged by humans.

posted by Howard_T at 02:47 PM on January 15

I don't see how it is any different for the patriots to celebrate with "the dance". I wonder if LT thinks his team mate has no class when he is doing it. Quit whinning and go to Hawaii with your pal LT. You lost

posted by vhf.com at 03:00 PM on January 15

the colts offense have been sputtering the last few weeks and they will continue. maybe i am going to end up putting my foot in my mouth here or not, but im going to make a bold prediction anyways. the colts defense is going to come back down to earth this weekend and they will be going home once again this year.

posted by mflinn at 03:10 PM on January 15

How can anyone say that Marty should be gone? He just led them to their best record in Charger history and the best record in the NFL this year. hoyty, that's a valid point. Maybe a lot of the Fire Marty! thing is just reputation and perception, but I can tell you, as a Pats fan, the one shred of hope I held onto this past week was that Martyball would come through for us. And there were at least two times I thanked him out loud yesterday (yeah, the 4th and 11* and the challenge). The perception is a result of him bringing a series of #1 seeds to the playoffs and never even making the Superbowl. hellamarine, I wouldn't bother to follow the sport if I felt it was as rigged as you do. Don't you find it frustrating? * The one caveat I have here: the team would have been kicking into the wind.

posted by yerfatma at 04:00 PM on January 15

Face it, in this day of NFL parity, the only way for continued succes is a little help from your friends (the refs and the league). So, as I understand it, Patriot fans think the refs are fixing the games AGAINST them, but opposition fans think the refs are fixing games FOR the Patriots. And wasn't it just last year that Steelers fans complained about the refs "fixing" games AGAINST them (or trying) and then the Seahawk fans complained about the refs "fixing" it FOR the Steelers? In my books, that's a wash and a pretty good indication that there isn't any "fixing" by the refs.

posted by grum@work at 04:15 PM on January 15

The Bolts did themselves in, and as usual, Tom Brady seized the game in crunch time. You cannot make as many mistakes against the Pats as they did and expect to win. hellamarine, maybe you should stick to pro rasslin' and such, you know, the stuff that ain't fixed good and proper...

posted by mjkredliner at 04:16 PM on January 15

Face it, in this day of NFL parity, the only way for continued succes is a little help from your friends (the refs and the league). To be fair, I should point out that the league does promote parity by giving the poor teams an easier schedule the next season, and the great teams a tougher schedule. However, this has been going on for over 30 years, so I doubt it's much of a "conspiracy".

posted by grum@work at 04:52 PM on January 15

grum: I thought they tossed that after the last expansion/realignment? Ah... they just reduced it. Only three games are determined that way, so it isn't as wild as it used to be.

posted by tieguy at 05:02 PM on January 15

On fourth down, why doesn't McCree just knock the ball down???? This bothers me every time I see it, a DB more interested in his stats and getting on TV then what's going on in the game. Why in god's name would you want to intercept a 4th down pass, and why does no one point this out in any of the coverage I've seen? I'm pretty sure Ed Reed did the same in the Indy game just the day before. Just knock it down! As for next week's game, as a Pat's homer, I would point out that the last two meetings were not really indicative as to what will happen. In 2005 the Pats were decimated with injuries and simply were incapable of defending the Colts receivers with their rag-tag band of DBs. This year, they lost Harrison in the first quarter and never really recovered and Brady started forcing passes trying to compensate. I'm sure that I'll now be mocked, and told that I'm making excuses, but it's no worse then the Peyton apologists that are still not willing to admit that he simply folds in January. I've been following the Pats since I've been old enough to comprehend the game. I suffered through the indignity of the first two SB loses and multiple 1-15 seasons in between. One of the hallmark's of the SB winning teams has been their ability to have a perpetual chip on their shoulder. As such I wasn't surprised by the celebration, not that I completely condone it.

posted by turacma at 05:10 PM on January 15

McCree's quote is pretty telling (I read it in the NYT article)..."I was trying to make a play,” McCree said. “Anytime I get the ball, I am going to try to score.” Because he wanted to make a play, he doesn't get to play anymore in the playoffs. Lots of players make mistakes (even costly season-ending ones, Brady had plenty in that game that could've ended the Pats' run), but you have to own up to it not excuse it with a me-first attitude.

posted by kokaku at 05:23 PM on January 15

LaDainian thats what happens when you play against a PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALL TEAM. You got your prop's in the pregame the Pats got theirs when it counts post game. Next weekend I'm sure it will be all Peyton this and that from the media pre-game. 1 Pat to the Pro Bowl who cares 1 team to the SUPER BOWL 1 game to go.

posted by thatch at 05:36 PM on January 15

Great line from today's Boston Sports Media Watch...

"When Deion Sanders has to come on and remind you that it's not really proper to refer to yourself as "classy" - that's [something] that you should let others say about you, then you know you might need to rethink your position."

posted by YukonGold at 06:14 PM on January 15

Yeah, the Pats looked real PROFESSIONAL doing their little dance on the Chargers emblem. Face it, athletes are a bunch of punks these days with no respect for the fans or their opponents and the dance just proves it further. As for the holding on Bruschi, I don't have enough fingers on my hand to count all the holds on Chargers defesemen trying to rush Brady. I guess they figure the so-called best team of the 2000s must not lower themselves to actually holding the defense to protect that over-rated s.o.b. Brady. Oh sure, he's had a few comebacks, but not without assistance from the officiating. And just ask the Dolphins, get some smackdown on him and he starts throwing the ball like a little girl.

posted by hellamarine at 06:32 PM on January 15

They always have to piss in some other teams' cornflakes Wingnut, once you have tasted New England piss, you will be a fan for life (rename yourself NEPEE4Life maybe?).

posted by Cave_Man at 06:35 PM on January 15

Tom Brady is the most over-rated quarterback of all time. He has never one a close playoff game without the foot of his kicker and the only reason he is the player he is today is because of his former genius offensive coordinator, now head coach of Notre Dame, Charlie Weis. Weis has done with Brady Quinn, who two years ago was the worst quarterback in divsion 1 football, what he did with Tom Brady in New England. Without Weis Brady was and will be again just a 6th round back up out of Michigan.

posted by the legend at 06:50 PM on January 15

FRAZIER. WHERE THE HELL ARE YOU???? Oh, sorry, did not know you're in drag to duck your bookies. Hope the broken hands do not stop you from posting your predictions later this week.

posted by Cave_Man at 06:51 PM on January 15

the legend, that was an amazing troll. Now die. hellamarine, for someone who doesn't care, you sure seem to care. Taunting happens in every NFL game. It's because the athletes are all spoiled, overpaid rapists who don't appreciate how lucky they are to have rich benefactors providing them with facilities with which to practice their sub-human behavior. Not sure why you bother watching.

posted by yerfatma at 06:58 PM on January 15

Wow, someone else thinks that Brady is over-rated. I'm glad that me and my family aren't the only people in the world who think this of Brady. It's also nice to see someone else has some kind of sense and doesn't just swallow the crap that the supposed experts like to spew.

posted by hellamarine at 07:00 PM on January 15

fatma, when did I say I didn't care? I said it's gotten to the point that the fixing of games is becoming more and more akin to that of the NBA, and if the trend didn't quit, then I'll stop watching it too. Then the only sport I'll be watchig is the only true man's sport anway. Go Hockey!

posted by hellamarine at 07:04 PM on January 15

I've never seen a homeless guy so excited to win a game before, this was the Pats Superbowl, now Indy will exact revenge for all the playoff heartaches that have come at the hands of those hated Pats. In order for San Diego to improve they must cut Parker, Florence and McCree these guys are paid to do a job and they failed at it, Shotty's job was to put them in a position to compete and win the game, which he did, besides if Shotty goes who would replace him?, they have a good nucleus of YOUNG talent fill in the holes and they're still a contender for years to come

posted by jknemo at 07:06 PM on January 15

nemo, I agree, some receivers who could catch, not talking TE but WR, would be a big help for this team. I don't believe I've seen that many dropped passes since Penn State kicked the crap outta the Miami receivers in the national championship game a few years back. The difference is that the Miami receivers got knocked into submission and the Chargers receivers are just inept.

posted by hellamarine at 07:12 PM on January 15

McCree's quote is pretty telling (I read it in the NYT article)..."I was trying to make a play,” McCree said. “Anytime I get the ball, I am going to try to score.” Because he wanted to make a play, he doesn't get to play anymore in the playoffs. The problem is that players train and practice to intercept the ball when it is near them. It's almost counter-intuitive to suddenly NOT attempt to catch the ball. That would be like telling a running back to slow down when scampering towards the end zone because you don't want to leave too much time on the clock for the other team to attempt a comeback. However, after making the reception, he probably should have just fallen to the ground. But trying to blame him for catching a ball thrown in his direction is a bit much. Besides, what if he tries to knock it down but just deflects it sideways/up by mistake, only to be caught by a nearby Patriot? FRAZIER. WHERE THE HELL ARE YOU???? Oh, sorry, did not know you're in drag to duck your bookies. Hope the broken hands do not stop you from posting your predictions later this week. Comment icon posted by Cave_Man at 6:51 PM CST on January 15 What the heck is your problem, Cave_Man? Did you lay money down based on wfrazerjr's picks? Why are you so freaked out about this?

posted by grum@work at 07:13 PM on January 15

Thankfully, I still have all those Chevy/Mellencamp commercials to keep me grounded next weekend while watching a bunch of cheating, crybaby, silver-spoon fed millionaires play in the most evil and twisted contest ever. epic. truly epic.

posted by YukonGold at 08:16 PM on January 15

Face it, athletes are a bunch of punks these days with no respect for the fans or their opponents and the dance just proves it further. Marine, it seems to me that you are in the wrong place. Maybe it's time for you to find "Nobody can live up to my expectationsfilter.com" or maybe "I like to hear myself complainfilter.com". If you think these guys are such punks, there are other things on television besides sports.

posted by hawkguy at 09:00 PM on January 15

EVERYONE WHO JOINED SPORTSFILTER.COM IN THE LAST WEEK: There is some very important information about your account. Please read our guidelines. They are the rules of the road and all good information you need to know to keep your account here in good standings, what constitutes a troll, what makes a good comment, what flies and what doesn't. You're collectively killing us all. Signed, us all

posted by jerseygirl at 09:11 PM on January 15

Thank you jg.

posted by tommytrump at 09:22 PM on January 15

And the SpoFi community breathes a collective sigh of relief.

posted by hawkguy at 09:24 PM on January 15

Tom Brady is the most over-rated quarterback of all time. He has three rings and two Super Bowl MVP wins and he doesn't turn 30 until this August. He's won more consecutive playoff games than any QB in NFL history. What could be said of Brady that's bigger than his actual accomplishments? Name a current quarterback you'd rather have with three minutes left in a playoff game you're trailing by six.

posted by rcade at 09:36 PM on January 15

Wow, I just read this thread from start to finish. If you removed the players names and the teams names you could easily mistake this for a McNabb/T.O.-Philly/Dallas thread. Drama Player hatin Head butts Dancing/celebrating @midfield To mad to shake hands after the game Sore losers Flaming winners If you had to choose at the start of this season to pick the players and teams involved in this thread (dancing at midfield/not shaking hands after the game), there is no way in the world anyone would pick the Pats has the dancing/mocking opponent at midfield team and LT as the player to not shake hands and then throw a fit at the end of the game player.

posted by Bishop at 09:58 PM on January 15

"The problem is that players train and practice to intercept the ball when it is near them. It's almost counter-intuitive to suddenly NOT attempt to catch the ball." grum... baseball players are trained to hit a baseball and yet somehow seem to know when the count is 3-0, they should take a pitch. This is the football equivalent. Players even in high school are expected to know the game situation. They are taught to knock it down on 4th down. Or should I say - team players are taught to knock it down - selfish players don't.

posted by endorfin at 10:42 PM on January 15

Yeah, you're right, as long as they allow the o-line to continue to hold in the final 3 minutes, I'll take Brady, but as soon as they start calling it, I'll take someone else. BTW, if the Chargers have Vinatieri, the game would've gone to OT.

posted by hellamarine at 10:50 PM on January 15

Endorfin, I don't know what games you watch in baseball, but I do see players swing at 3-0 pitches all the time. Of course the players doing this are the games elite hitters Albert Pujols et al.

posted by hellamarine at 10:55 PM on January 15

I don't think that McNabb (or his mom), Delhomme, and Warner would agree with "the legend" in saying that Brady has never won a close game without the foot of his kicker. This may sound foolish, but winning by one is just as good as winning by 6. (7 if you let the kicker out on the field). The legend may want the Pats to only go for two points. Oh ya, they did that yesterday and against Philly in the superbowl. But I guess Brady should've run those in, because you know football IS a one player sport. "My family" thinks Brady is overrated hellamarine, is probably just a sad sack buckeye fan whose top NFL QB was a punter named Tupa. Glad to know that little Skip and cute little Katie are your basis for an overrated ranking. Dork. The fact is that NO ONE that makes a pro team is overrated, mabey OVERHYPED, McNabb, McNair, Manning, combined 0 superbowl wins, but a bunch of MVP awards, that were never actually won, but awarded, but where should I stop. I don't care if someone catches one pass or makes one tackle. It's still more than 99% of us will ever get paid to do.

posted by patsfan73 at 11:40 PM on January 15

grum... baseball players are trained to hit a baseball and yet somehow seem to know when the count is 3-0, they should take a pitch. Actually, you don't have that right. Players are trained to read a pitch and make a decision to swing. On a 3-0 pitch, they make a decision not to swing even before the pitch is thrown. There is no reaction required. It's not like they have to decide as the ball is thrown. They are taught to knock it down on 4th down. You know, I don't think I've ever seen a player with the opportunity to intercept the ball actually try to knock it down. Not once. If he can get two hands on it, he attempts to intercept it, every single time.

posted by grum@work at 11:44 PM on January 15

mabey OVERHYPED, McNabb, McNair, Manning, combined 0 superbowl wins, but a bunch of MVP awards, that were never actually won At last you got 1 part right, McNabb has never won an MVP. Dude, I hope you got this much to say if they DON'T win the Superbowl. Or will you mysteriously forget your password.

posted by Bishop at 02:53 AM on January 16

If he can get two hands on it, he attempts to intercept it, every single time. grum.....you are absolutely right. It's a rote action, drilled into every DB in existence. His action intercepting the pass was excellent and every Bolt fan cheered like crazy when he did it. Everyone of the Bolt faithful in that stadium was ecstatic for a couple of seconds and then became second guessers instantly when the fumble occured. Call it fate, karma, pure blind luck that the first Patriot player to him was the one offensive player that is often used as a DB and reacted as a DB and stripped the ball from him. Amazing! patsfan73 I agree with you that Brady is a tremendous QB. It makes no difference who your team is, if you evaluate talent and watch the game you have to realize that he is one of the very best to ever play the game because he does what it takes to win. The 12-1 record as a starting QB in the playoffs speaks for itself....no, I'm not sayin' it's all Brady but when it's close and points are needed he finds a way to bring out the best in those around him and himself and accomplish the task. Without Vinateri maybe the Pats lose, without Brady maybe Vinateri never gets the chance to make a difference.....sounds like the chicken and egg thing, huh? Because of both of them the Pats wear 3 rings and both are deservedly looked upon as great players in the clutch.

posted by brbcca at 03:02 AM on January 16

FRAZIER. WHERE THE HELL ARE YOU???? Oh, sorry, did not know you're in drag to duck your bookies. Hope the broken hands do not stop you from posting your predictions later this week. You know where he might be? Writing another column, in his own personal spare time, for the edification and entertainment of the rest of us. What's your big friggin' problem? You're so goddamned smart, how about you write a column and bless us all with your wisdom? Frazier makes his calls, writes a funny column, and then gets to listen to your "I've-been-a-member-for-less-than-two-weeks-and-I-know-everything" smartass comments. You got such a problem, don't read the Hoser's Picks, or, at the very least, keep your trap shut. You're not funny, or cute, or anything else good. Just stick a cork in it. The rest of us, the ones who don't shit all over fellow members for making worthwhile contributions to the site, would really appreciate it. Obviously, waiting five days or a week before you can post isn't long enough for some people. Jerseygirl is right. Read the guidelines, and at least make some attempt at following them. Hellamarine, your blatant homerism is wearing thin. I don't like the Patriots, either, but I might make one or two joking comments and then leave it alone. You've posted twelve times in this thread, and said nothing worthwhile in the whole of your comments. The NFL did not "cheat" the Patriots' way into the AFC Championship Game, and your repeated declarations of such make you look like an idiot. Take a break. Go eat a sandwich or something.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 04:25 AM on January 16

BTW, if the Chargers have Vinatieri, the game would've gone to OT. Really? How many 50+ yard kicks did Adam hit outdoors in the playoffs? How many 50+ yard kicks did he hit all-time (I think the answer is 4)? You have no argument. It's one of those shape-shifting things where every time your "point" gets blown up you move onto something completely different. Now it's Brady's offensive line that are the real heroes. Now it's Vinatieri. Previously it was Charley Weis. The weird thing is, Brady has won despite turnover at all those spots. I wonder what the one consistent thing would be in those wins. I suppose it's just the coach.

posted by yerfatma at 05:53 AM on January 16

How did good 'ol Steve McNair get dragged into this? Poor guy.

posted by YukonGold at 06:22 AM on January 16

How many 50+ yard kicks did Adam hit outdoors in the playoffs? I'm not sure historically, but he had a 51 yarder in Baltimore on Saturday.

posted by holden at 07:07 AM on January 16

I can't find anyone that breaks down playoff stats for kickers. Adam was 8-18 from 50+ (which seems pretty good to me); I did hear this year he'd never hit a 50+ at Foxboro (only tried once, I think).

posted by yerfatma at 07:42 AM on January 16

All this crap about the celebration by Patriot players on the emblem is tired. It's just something for losers to focus on, because San Diego absolutely gagged the game away. They should have run, full speed and embarrassed, off the field after a game like that and not worry about what a winning team does. Maybe someday they'll have a chance to experience a big win, then we'll see how they react. Saying "Brady is overrated" translates in most languages to mean "I can't stand the Patriots because they win." As long as Belichick is coach, and Brady is at quarterback, they can continue to win games. Brady doesn't have to fall back on the tired, "We don't have any receivers" line like McNabb and Vick do. He takes what he has and finds a way to win games. As for Bill Belichick, how many times have you ever watched a game he's coaching and had to wonder what the hell he's doing, like, for example, with Marty last weekend (throwing the red flag, poor play calling, poor clock management)? He can take seemingly-inferior talent and win games. I'm not a Patriot fan, either, but I'm at least smart enough to admit when players, teams, or coaches are head-and-shoulders above the rest. Stop acting like complete fantasy geeks when critiquing players and remember the only stat that matters: Winning.

posted by dyams at 07:46 AM on January 16

From this article after Saturday's game re Vinatieri: Including his 8-for-8 start to this year's playoffs, he's made 81 percent of his postseason attempts, including a 51-yarder on Saturday that skipped off the crossbar and through for the longest postseason field goal of his career. So unless he's hit one or more 50 (on the nose) yarders, it looks like Vinatieri has potentially just made the one 50+ yard field goal.

posted by holden at 07:58 AM on January 16

The Spo-Fi team pulled this thread out at the last minute, too. Good work boys.

posted by mjkredliner at 08:07 AM on January 16

holden, et al, I do want to make it clear I am in no way denigrating the memory of Adam Vinatieri or suggesting Gostkowski* is his superior. Just trying to counter the "OMG! The kicker was the key to it all!" idea. * Why can't we have a kicker with a normal name?** ** Like "Bob". Seriously, "Adam"? "Stephen"? Who does that to a kid?

posted by yerfatma at 09:06 AM on January 16

"FYI for all of you knuckleheads, NE didn't win the game, SD lost it" Well, the team that "didn't win the game" is playing another game next week no matter how they won it. "Peyton Manning has never done anything feel-good for me. He's got boatloads of talents and skill, but his attitude makes it impossible for me to root for him" What "attitude" that Peyton displayed are you speaking of? I've always seen Peyton as an all around good guy and a great quarterback. As far as people saying that Tom Brady is over-rated, I would take an over-rated, 3-time Super Bowl Champion any day of the week. Some may not like Brady for whatever reason but the bottom line is, this guy delivers when it counts and so far in his playoff career is 12-1. On a side note: Adam Vinateri may have kicked the game winners on some (if not most) of those games but everything that's done is done so collectively as a team. If Tom Brady doesn't drive his team towards field goal range, Adam Vinateri doesn't get a chance to kick a game winner. It all goes hand in hand.

posted by BornIcon at 09:25 AM on January 16

"My family" thinks Brady is overrated hellamarine, is probably just a sad sack buckeye fan whose top NFL QB was a punter named Tupa. Glad to know that little Skip and cute little Katie are your basis for an overrated ranking. Dork. patsfan, I don't know how big your family is, but my kids don't even watch football. When I referred to "My family", I meant my father, brothers, uncles, cousins on mine and my wife's side that for the most part we see once or twice a year. BTW, I never said Brady wasn't good, only that he's over-rated. I hear Brady talked about possibly being the best ever and it makes me laugh until my stomach hurts. And as for the final minutes of a game, as much as I hated him when he played, I'll still take Elway, HANDS DOWN! Oh, there's another guy that played for a team I hate that I'd take also, Roger Staubach.

posted by hellamarine at 09:25 AM on January 16

Oh, btw pats, I hate the Buckeyes and all other Big 10 teams. And teams from Florida are the Devil!

posted by hellamarine at 09:39 AM on January 16

Hey black_hand, you're absolutely, how could there be cheating in sports. I know I've NEVER witnessed such a tragedy as cheating sports. Oh, and as for saying nothing worthwhile, considering you counted and read them all, I'll rest my case.

posted by hellamarine at 09:42 AM on January 16

Someone in the powers that be...Please do something about this guy.

posted by hawkguy at 10:01 AM on January 16

So all you Brady-homos can KMA! hellamarine, here's a little piece of advice, you truly need to chill with all this hostility. This site isn't a place for you or anyone else to bash fellow SpoFi bloggers and to call anyone that disagrees with you a deragatory name. I know that you're fairly new to this site but jerseygirl made it a point to post the guidelines for all newbies. We may not necessarily be formal on here but we do tend to look out for one another. Also, stop with the un-needed postings, your looking very bad here. Just trying to help you out before it gets ugly.

posted by BornIcon at 10:04 AM on January 16

Oh it's ugly all right. It's Star Jones up in this hizzy. Yes, I did just say hizzy.

posted by jerseygirl at 10:09 AM on January 16

I know you did JG but since Star Jones is also from Jersey (My hometown of Trenton, NJ), I think you have the right to use "hizzy" at least once a month. I don't think Snoop D-O-DOUBLE G anyways.

posted by BornIcon at 10:12 AM on January 16

holden, et al, I do want to make it clear I am in no way denigrating the memory of Adam Vinatieri or suggesting Gostkowski* is his superior. Just trying to counter the "OMG! The kicker was the key to it all!" idea. I didn't think you were and I hope you don't think I'm arguing the corollary or taking that OMG position. I was just trying to provide some data points so we could have a reasoned discussion about that and other points. Regardless of whether Gostkowski honks a big kick in this weekend's game and Vinatieri makes the game winner or vice versa, it is way, way, too early to draw any larger conclusions considering the breadth of Vinatieri's post-season work and the relatively small body of post-season work Gostkowski will have at the end of this play-off run. As to Brady being overrated (which almost really isn't worthy of discussion considering the whole topic got started by someone trolling), I don't think Brady right now should be in the conversation of best QB ever considering his relative youth and the fact that his regular season stats are solid, but not spectacular. Even at this stage, however, you have to put him in the conversation of the best post-season QBs ever. 12-1 is just too much to overlook and, while I hate to use abstract terms and subjective measures of performance, he definitely seems to come through when it matters. I think one of the reasons people hate the Patriots is just that they have this look that might be described as cocky, but I would call it confident. Look at Belichick or Brady in the fourth quarter of a close game and they just project confidence.

posted by holden at 10:18 AM on January 16

I think the other fact that comes into play is, as far as I know, he is Jesus Walking the Earth. So every heretic in this thread should be well pleased the site is run by godless idolaters who don't know how to handle trolls. The Spanish Inquisition, those were real admins who knew what they were doing. "Yea though he threw for but 200 yards, great were the accomplishments. I will show you fear in three yards and a cloud of dust." Tom 2:34

posted by yerfatma at 10:29 AM on January 16

If he's not the best ever - which he isn't, I don't think anyone is really making that claim (that isn't on a telecast) - at least he's starting to get into the conversation. He's current career stats are starting to match up and his post-season resume (with MVPs) is already wicked awesome to the point of discussing him as an all-time great. Imagine if he wins again? With this offensive roster? It may be Brady loving to the extreme but right now in the NFL I fail to see how anyone can be ranked above him when all things are considered. I always organize it simply that if Peyton is Marino, then Brady is Montana. And really - which would you rather have?

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 10:32 AM on January 16

BTW, how many INTs did Brady throw in that game? I guess I must not have seen any as he was so gosh darn SPECTACTULAR!

posted by hellamarine at 10:42 AM on January 16

I am sorry Tom Brady stole your girlfriend, pantsed you, took your mom out for a nice seafood dinner and never called her again, and shoved you into a locker in HS, but it might be time to move on.

posted by jerseygirl at 10:47 AM on January 16

The first truly derogatory (again, pproper spelling)......was to call you all a bunch of Brady-homos Look hellamarine, obviously you have some sort of chip on your shoulder. I may very well be the only friend you have at this point and all I'm trying to do is help you out before someone decides to boot you from this site. The last thing that I need from you is to suddenly become the SpoFi spelling bee champion (when you seem to have a problem spelling the word "proper") of 2007. Let it go.

posted by BornIcon at 10:49 AM on January 16

Brady-homos If there was a just world hellamarine, I'd have the ability to manipulate the user database and make all of your posts (previous and future) be signed "Brady-Homo".

posted by grum@work at 11:19 AM on January 16

"And Lo, the unbelievers came unto The Land. And spelling took a tumble."

posted by yerfatma at 11:32 AM on January 16

What "attitude" that Peyton displayed are you speaking of? I've always seen Peyton as an all around good guy and a great quarterback. Great quarterback, sure, but everything about him smacks of a big me-first attitude. Watch his body language when something goes wrong on a play: he rolls his eyes, he throws his hands in the air, he sneers—and not at himself. He always seems more than happy to blame his teammates first for anything. And that the touchdown-record run a couple years back: I dunno, forcing touchdown after touchdown down the throats of non-playoff teams with your starters on the field, long after any other team would have the backups in... seems like playing for stats rather than playing to win. Look, I don't know the guy, and I'm obviously in no better position to judge him than anyone else here, but from what I've seen, I wouldn't want to play with him. And that's something.

posted by DrJohnEvans at 11:35 AM on January 16

Right, because on their last touchdown drive, Brady did what, threw an interception to McCree. I think he needs to get on his knees and kiss Troy Brown's butt for saving his. If it wasn't for Troy Brown, San Diego wins. Oh, and btw, when I was in Pop Warner I knew to knock down the ball on 4th down. I not only did this in Pop Warner, but also in high school and in sand lot games. So, as a guy getting paid to play the game, shouldn't he know the situation and do the right thing. bornicon, I misspelled proper once (an obvious mistake) but you misspelled derogatory twice. derogatory (proper spelling, btw) and then (again, pproper spelling). So oviously I know how to spell it. OOOOH, I hit "p" twice, I guess I better walk the plank. grum, the pproper ;) term would be Brady-homophobe, wouldn't it?

posted by hellamarine at 11:46 AM on January 16

when I was in Pop Warner I knew to knock down the ball on 4th down. I not only did this in Pop Warner, but also in high school and in sand lot games. Finally! The insight of an experienced athlete!

posted by YukonGold at 11:56 AM on January 16

I wouldn't want to play with him. And that's something. You wouldn't want to play with Peyton? Whoa, and I get the cat o' nine tails for Brady-hating. You know, I don't disagree with you 100% because people are entitled to their own opinions. I for one think if there was a problem with Peyton's attitude, that they wouldn't win so much, but that is my opinion. Just as it's my OPINION that Brady is over-rated and the league caters to the Pats. Apparently, I'm not allowed to have that opinion without people wanting me kicked off SportsFilter. I guess differing opinions are a horribly wrong thing. Btw, I actually pulled for the Pats at one time (although not a fan) to win the big one, I just feel like they get an unfair share of the right side of the calls now. This made me look at them differently. Oh, and for the record, wasn't Belichick vilified when with the Browns for being a bad coach? You know, I actually was in the minority back then because I used to argue that I thought he did some good things and had potential to be a great coach. I still think he's a great coach, but where were all of you when he was in Cleveland being called a madman?

posted by hellamarine at 12:01 PM on January 16

I wasn't saying I was experienced, yukon, in fact, I was trying to point out exactly the opposite, that an inexperienced player such as myself even knew to knock the ball down . Good god, have I irritated you all to the point of irrationality? Look, I'm not on here trying to "p" people off, I just wanted to get a different view of things on here. I know you all think Brady is the second-coming, but I just wanted you to know that not everyone agrees. So go ahead and keep giving it to me, because you're not changing my opinion of him or the Pats! p.s. I will admit a few of my digs were meant to get under the skin a little, but I was also trying to be sarcastically funny. You all know sarcasm, no?

posted by hellamarine at 12:07 PM on January 16

I wasn't saying I was experienced, yukon Nonsense! Don't downplay what you can bring to a defense. You'd be getting ready for the AFC Championship, as we speak.

posted by YukonGold at 12:11 PM on January 16

If you saw me and my 50 pounds of excess weight you wouldn't think so.;)

posted by hellamarine at 12:14 PM on January 16

Of course I can still run the 40 in 4.5... minutes! That's what computer work can do for you too.

posted by hellamarine at 12:15 PM on January 16

I just wanted to get a different view of things on here Ok, you have. Enough already. A good part of debating is knowing when you've put enough out there to support your position. Simply repeating the same thing over and over does not a conversation make. I'm not on here trying to "p" people off You have. We're all p'd off, as demonstrated by the numerous comments telling/asking you to knock it off. Good god, have I irritated you all to the point of irrationality? Maybe we're not the irrational ones. Listen... you joined this site yesterday and you've yet to make a comment that really merits anything. I'd suggest you're inflating your post numbers to circumvent the FPP creation waiting period, but you probably don't even know what that is because you haven't read the guidelines repeatedly pointed out to you. You're slowly approaching that line of pushing your agenda with no regard to the community and it's borderline trolling. No one wants to ban you because you hate Tom Brady, they want you banned because your behavior spits in the face of the community guidelines and rules. In short? You don't seem to want to play nice.

posted by jerseygirl at 12:16 PM on January 16

Hey jersey, you know what, if the fact that I think differently is reason enough for you to get p'd off, then I'm not the one with the problem. Btw, I haven't actually been irate once. So maybe you're the one with the problem. And I could care less about my post numbers, I'm just trying to input unlike-minded thinking. Apparently I'm wrong for thinking differently. OH MY, I can't fight it any longer, ugh, ugh, eeeeh, GO PATS! :-) I hope that's what you wanted.

posted by hellamarine at 12:28 PM on January 16

You know what, screw you guys, I'm sorry you're so set in your ways that my posts are so offensive. Get over yourselves! OMG, someone new is posting on OUR boards, get him out, he doesn't think like us! Wow, I didn't know I was talking to the internet inventor himself, hello Mr. Gore. You know you guys need to get off your high horses.

posted by hellamarine at 12:32 PM on January 16

And a comprehension disconnect presents itself.

posted by jerseygirl at 12:37 PM on January 16

Your right, you did present yourself.

posted by hellamarine at 12:38 PM on January 16

....I wouldn't want to play with (Peyton Manning). And that's something Why is that saying something, DrJ? Are you a free agent wide out in the NFL and thinking about resigning with another team? The examples that you laid out were nothing more but a person that seems to be frustrated, nothing more. I still don't see an attitude problem there. No getting to people with attitudes, hellamarine, no one wants to kick you off of SpoFi for giving your opinion but for being a complete idiot. You may not want to hear it but the fact remains that you're non-witty comments are beginning to wear very thin on some people. You comparing a professional athlete with your Pop Warner experience is absolutely hilarious. I played Pop Warner football as well but by no means does that equate to me having firsthand knowledge of what goes on in the NFL or with an NFL player. I also played baseball from Little League and some Minor league ball, does that make me an expert in the field of steroid use? hellamarine: I wasn't saying I was experienced, yukon YukonGold: Nonsense! Don't downplay what you can bring to a defense. You'd be getting ready for the AFC Championship, as we speak Now that's sarcasm, hellamarine

posted by BornIcon at 12:39 PM on January 16

Whatever yukon, I was NOT comparing my Pop Warner days to the NFL but, again, as you don't seem to be able to comprehend the logic, was trying to point out that even in POP WARNER we knew that on 4th, you KNOCK THE GD BALL DOWN! Oh, and might I ask why it's ok for you to hound me, but not the other way around? And might I also add that you are so funny that I'm still laughing at you.

posted by hellamarine at 12:48 PM on January 16

Seriously though, quit while your ahead. If you're really trying to mess with JG, your climbing up the wrong tree, she's not the one you want to mess with. Again, I'm only trying to help but since you couldn't see that the first time I tried to give you some friendly advice, the rest is on you.

posted by BornIcon at 12:49 PM on January 16

Oooh, and who is jersey, God? So it's okay for her to mess with me, but it's taboo to respond? Again, get off your high horses. BTW, I looked at jersey's profile and some some of the garbage she's spewed before. I have a hard time believeing, after reading it, that you guys are all p'd at me. C'est la vie!

posted by hellamarine at 12:51 PM on January 16

Hellmarine,you can have any opinion you want to have.But to say that Tom Brady is the most overrated quarterback in the league I think is a little too much.Have you ever looked at his playoff stats?And if I'm correct,I think you mentioned something about Vinatieri's foot winning games.Who the hell do you think got them down the field to put Vinatieri in the position to kick them game winning FG's?And the game this past Sunday.Who was it to give Gostkowski the opportunity to kick that FG that won the game?I don't know who or what quarterback you've been watching for the last 4-5 yrs,but by your comments,I don't think it's Tom Brady.As I just looked backed to the past posts,I just noticed that it was legend,and not you who wrote about Vinatieri's kicks.Sorry about that one.Yea hellamarine,I think you have come to the point that you have pissed some people off in here.Give it a break.You made your points be known.Thank you jerseygirl. Noone could have said it better than what you said above

posted by Ghastly1 at 12:53 PM on January 16

Hey, ghastly, how many ints did Brady throw on Sunday? Hmmm, maybe his DEFENSE and TROY BROWN had more to do with the win. Last I checked the drive before the field goal, Brady threw an int and was lucky Troy Brown was in the area. Oh, and if the DB did what he was supposed to do, we might not even be having this discussion.

posted by hellamarine at 12:57 PM on January 16

You've said that already.

posted by jerseygirl at 12:58 PM on January 16

Glad you're counting jersey, because apparently no-one listened the first time. I guess this is a site for the reading impaired?

posted by hellamarine at 12:59 PM on January 16

Wow, I guess I missed those! Must have been eating my sandwich. What happened venice, decided you were wrong? You know it's amazing that my other posts on different threads haven't had this much action. I wonder why?

posted by hellamarine at 01:02 PM on January 16

hellamarine,your not making any friends here on this site at all.Are you doing this to be a smart ass,or are you just a sarcastic person?I've only been a member here myself for only 5 months.But as long as I've been reading and adding my comments,I've never come across anyone like you here on SpoFi.I for one would like to see you just move on and take your opinions elsewhere. Seems to me that you've got a chip on your shoulder and want to vent your problems here.We don't need them here on SpoFi.

posted by Ghastly1 at 01:03 PM on January 16

Can I say Farts Forum? Pleeeease?

posted by Mr Bismarck at 01:04 PM on January 16

Oh, and might I ask why it's ok for you to hound me, but not the other way around? No more emoticons? I thought we had something.

posted by YukonGold at 01:04 PM on January 16

Oooh, and who is jersey, God? So it's okay for her to mess with me, but it's taboo to respond? What he meant was she was trying to help smooth things over and you were attacking the messenger. Feel free to melt down though. In all honesty, that the kind of thing I visit the Internet to see.

posted by yerfatma at 01:05 PM on January 16

Seems to me that you are all like attack dogs just waiting for someone to say something you don't like, and then you pounce. But that's my opinion, I could be wrong. Of course I'm not, though.

posted by hellamarine at 01:06 PM on January 16

Doesn't matter how many ints he threw.All that matters now is that we're moving to the next round against the Colts.May the best team win.

posted by Ghastly1 at 01:07 PM on January 16

Maybe you didn't read the same post I did, fatma, because if that was trying to smooth things over, then she needs some help with her etiquette. Now, I probably do owe bornicon an apology, but I don't think jersey gets one. Sorry yukon, I'm still there for you man! Wanna get some Bud Light? ;)

posted by hellamarine at 01:10 PM on January 16

It's times like these I wish we had a ROFL button.

posted by jerseygirl at 01:12 PM on January 16

What's wrong jersey? Someone not kissin' your butt?

posted by hellamarine at 01:22 PM on January 16

What happened venice, decided you were wrong? No -- I didn't think it was worth arguing with you because your objective is to "win", not to have a meaningful discussion. To enlighten everyone else who wasn't riding their refresh button, I pointed out to HM that PLENTY of people criticized the Patriots in this very thread without getting into a huge bitch-fight with half the website. Then I deleted it, because honestly, what's the point of continuing the argument. But - you called me out so I feel honor-bound to respond. HM, you don't have to like any of the players or teams that I like. But kindly make your arguments against them without relying on unprovable conspiracy theories or ad hominem attacks. Please don't take over interesting threads with stream-of-consciousness rants. Before long we might, in fact, find ourselves on the same side of an argument. This isn't gladiator combat, it's a civilized discussion site, and it would be wicked awesome if you could find a way to contribute positively.

posted by Venicemenace at 01:22 PM on January 16

You don't owe me an apology hellamarine, I'm just letting you know from firsthand experience of what can happen and if you choose to not listen or take heed my advice, that's entirely up to you. I'm just suggesting that you slow your roll and watch what you say to people. When I first got on SpoFi, i was pretty similar to how you are until I got to understand that this site isn't about "attacking" anyone, we're all on here for the same thing, our love of sports. We all have something to say and sometime (ok, alot of times) people may not agree with your opinion. Everyone here is entitled to their own opinion but the last thing any one will tolerate is another individual (especially a newbie) trying to create a hostile environment. Don't take it personal, it is what it is. BTW, jerseygirl was in fact trying to help you as well since she posted a link of the guidelines for you to take a look at. That to me looks like someone that tried to assist you.

posted by BornIcon at 01:23 PM on January 16

Bud Light is extremely overrated.

posted by tselson at 01:27 PM on January 16

First time in NFL playoff history that a team (Patriots) had 50 pass attempts and won the game. Interesting that both AFC (the better conference) teams with the bye week lost their first games. Tomlinson had only nine touches in the second half; none on back to back plays. This disrespected on our turf mentality is the starting point that leads to the murder of Denver's Darrent Williams. Merriman's little dance is all about disrespect, not celebrating. Glad it was thrown back in his face. Tomlinson defended Merriman in public; in private I'd hope he'd give him a different message. Mcree running with the ball after the interception- can't get upset about this. Everson Walls or Roger Wehrli didn't sit down after interceptions.

posted by Newbie Walker at 01:29 PM on January 16

over priced maybe, but it tastes good and is less filling

posted by louisville_slugger at 01:31 PM on January 16

Right, born, but the smart-aleckness of jersey's guidelines post still rang through. And the last I looked, I did throw some bones about Brady's ints during the game, but every post I make gets more of you attacking me. In fact, you all have attacked me from post number one. So I guess you're right, I'M THE BAD GUY! Ooh, I must have seen the error of my ways... or maybe not.

posted by hellamarine at 01:31 PM on January 16

Hang it up dude, this is starting to get weird.

posted by louisville_slugger at 01:38 PM on January 16

This disrespected on our turf mentality is the starting point that leads to the murder of Denver's Darrent Williams What?!!? Where did you find this information from? At this point and time, there are Detectives working on this case and I for one have not heard anything to validate this. Please provide further information on this, Newbie. What are you talking about now, HM? I have not attacked you until you tried to come out your face at me and no where did I post anything calling you a so-called "bad guy." I believe that your just creating drama for no apparent reason whatsoever and I'm starting to think that this isn't the first site that you've tried to pull this act. But that's my opinion, I could be wrong. Of course I'm not, though Can we just get back to talking about sports? If this is going to continue, I'm sure that you're either going to be completely ignored or just kicked from here and there's no need for that.

posted by BornIcon at 01:42 PM on January 16

Although, in my opinion they should be, do you realize that both of the CBs you named aren't in the Hall, newbie? Maybe they should've knocked down those 4th down passes, you think? ;)

posted by hellamarine at 01:44 PM on January 16

Hey born, I don't recall ever really attacking you, but i do recall trying to defend my own opinion. If I attacked, I apologize.

posted by hellamarine at 01:46 PM on January 16

Oh, and would someone please explain to me why Wehrli and Walls aren't, at the very least, secondary coaches somewhere?

posted by hellamarine at 01:50 PM on January 16

Accepted.

posted by BornIcon at 01:51 PM on January 16

Hey born, do you remember Wehrli and Walls?

posted by hellamarine at 01:52 PM on January 16

What's wrong jersey? Someone not kissin' your butt? Nice attempt at a save, HM, but you lost me long before we got to this point. It would not matter what member of SpoFi you said this about. To me, this merits you going away for a long time.

posted by hawkguy at 01:54 PM on January 16

Hey, hawk, did you not see any of the garbage that was said to me. Mind your own business.

posted by hellamarine at 01:57 PM on January 16

You saw that, right born, even when I try to change things up, a yahoo like hawk chimes in to save the day.

posted by hellamarine at 01:59 PM on January 16

Btw, hawk, I call it like I read it. If that gets me bounced, then I'll live with it. I know that's what everyone was going for anyway, as the new guy should just go with the flow and not make waves. Hey DJ, did that sound like a Peyton comment? :)

posted by hellamarine at 02:04 PM on January 16

What?!!? Where did you find this information from? At this point and time, there are Detectives working on this case and I for one have not heard anything to validate this. Please provide further information on this, Newbie. As I took it, he meant they were both rooted in the same cause, the sort of Territorial Pissings all guys engage in at certain ages, in certain ways. That is to say, there isn't a big difference in meaning between Shawne Merriman's antics and the kind of thing that devolves into a shoot-out, just a difference in volume and outcome.

posted by yerfatma at 02:05 PM on January 16

Maybe he was also referring to the Patriots antics and the kind of thing that devolves into a shootout. Now, I am in no way a Merriman fan, in fact, I think he should just stfu, but what the Patriots did was just as bad. And if you're one of the people who think of them as "classy", then why do you think it's okay for them to lower themselves to the level of an idiot like Merriman?

posted by hellamarine at 02:10 PM on January 16

I don't know about you guys, But I'm GUARANTEEING that Duff Light beats Duff Extra Cold in the big game.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 02:19 PM on January 16

I don't know about that Weedy, I'm thinkin' Fudd Dry has a chance to make it to Miami this year!

posted by tommytrump at 02:38 PM on January 16

Didn't they stop making that after some hillbillies went blind?

posted by yerfatma at 02:40 PM on January 16

I did HM, but I can only speak for myself at this point. Like I said before, try not to take things personal. Just take things in stride, make your comments and stay humble. Just look at LT......ok, my bad. As far as Everson Walls, since he did play for my Cowboys, I do know of him and his all around greatness. Still can't figure out why he's not in the Hall of Fame. Maybe it has to do with him signing with the Giants after the '89 season, or maybe that's just me.

posted by BornIcon at 02:44 PM on January 16

That's not what caused their blindness.

posted by tommytrump at 02:45 PM on January 16

Well put yerfatma. After seeing it your way, you may have a point. The evalutation pitting the two scenerios were to the extreme, but not without merit. Valid point.

posted by BornIcon at 02:47 PM on January 16

That's not what caused their blindness I'm sure it's not but seeing that he went left from Dallas to the Jints, that's the only reason I see for him not being enshrined (bad joke). Walls was a 4-time Pro-Bowl player when he played for the Cowboys and deserves to get in the Hall.

posted by BornIcon at 02:52 PM on January 16

In football passing terms hellamarine, I have you at 1 for 40, with 29 sacks, 10 Int's, and negative 513 yards. Hellafirst thread.

posted by mjkredliner at 03:11 PM on January 16

Hellafirst thread Now That's some sarcasm for you...

posted by hawkguy at 03:13 PM on January 16

Yeah, I think Walls should be enshrined for having the good taste to finish his career with my Giants, born. But hey, maybe that's just me.

posted by hellamarine at 05:00 PM on January 16

Good one. Touche'

posted by BornIcon at 07:51 PM on January 16

Oh, and btw, when I was in Pop Warner I knew to knock down the ball on 4th down. I not only did this in Pop Warner, but also in high school and in sand lot games. It sounds like after playing football for so long, you still couldn't catch the ball.

posted by grum@work at 10:00 PM on January 16

"As I took it, he meant they were both rooted in the same cause, the sort of Territorial Pissings all guys engage in at certain ages, in certain ways. That is to say, there isn't a big difference in meaning between Shawne Merriman's antics and the kind of thing that devolves into a shoot-out, just a difference in volume and outcome." Yerfatma rephrased it better than I phrased it. "Although, in my opinion they should be, do you realize that both of the CB's you named aren't in the Hall, newbie?" Wehrli is a Hall of Fame ballot finalist this year. Already a member of the college football Hall of Fame. As for naming Everson Walls... just reflexes I guess.

posted by Newbie Walker at 02:44 AM on January 17

Yes, I know Wehrli is a finalist this year, but if my memory serves me correct, he's been a finalist before. Just being a finalist doesn't guarantee enshrinement. Oh, and one more question, why didn't Derrick Thomas make it in on the first go around. If you compare his numbers to LT, they are so close it's unreal, and he played what basically equates to one less season. If you look, Taylor played 13 yrs. and Thomas played 11 yrs., but with injuries and strikes, Thomas only played 15 fewer games. I realize that LT has been deemed the guy who changed the position, and he was a great LB, but how is a guy who was just as prolific at the position as LT not in the Hall? I would just like to say that, as a fan of the Chiefs and the Giants, weird combo I know, watching both of them as much as I could, there was not a lot of difference. I hope they finally put him in this year, and Wehrli as well. They both deserve it.

posted by hellamarine at 11:21 AM on January 17

See grum, I try to change the way things are going and here you are dissin' me. What's really funny to me is that I don't see the riot act being read to you. Also, anyone who has ever played defense, if they had a coach worth his salt, were taught to knock the ball down on 4th. You see the logic was that you not only got the ball back where the offense was, but you also eliminated the possibility of turning the ball over and giving said offense a 1st down. Have you ever played on defense in any kind of organized football, grum? Not trying to be a smart-ass, but I'd really like to know. And before you people start jumping down my throat again, how many of you ever played on defense? I realize that Pop Warner and High School ball isn't on the level of the pro game, hell it isn't even near college ball, but it is still organized, to say the least. As for sandlot ball, the point I was trying to make was, that even in a game that was meaningless to all but those there, I still played it the right way and I didn't even have to think about it because it was drilled into us to the point of being instinctive.

posted by hellamarine at 11:49 AM on January 17

As for naming Everson Walls... just reflexes I guess. Newbie, you were right to name Walls, the man should be in the Hall. For one thing, he's the only guy ever to lead the league in interceptions 3 times. For another, he was a great CB and one of the best to ever play the position as far a I'm concerned. Don't forget, all this is coming from a professed Cowboy-hater.

posted by hellamarine at 11:57 AM on January 17

Ease up, hellamartyr. I do have to agree with you about batting the ball down on 4th down. So does TMQ: On fourth down it is the responsibility of the coaching staff to remind defenders not to intercept! Before a key fourth down in our middle-school flag league this fall, I screamed to my players: "Knock it down! Do not intercept!" My 11-year-old, Spenser, had a perfect bead on a pick and instead slapped the ball to the ground. After the game he said, "Dad, I really wanted the interception, but I knew you knock it down on fourth down." Why didn't San Diego's professionals know this? Why didn't the highly paid San Diego coaches remind them? Before a fourth-down snap by the opponent, coaches are supposed to scream, "FOURTH DOWN! KNOCK IT DOWN!"

posted by yerfatma at 01:18 PM on January 17

Stay classy: Philips Rivers is seen screeching at Ellis Hobbs, calling him "the sorriest corner in the league." . . . [W]e're doubting Rivers said much about this video taken at the San Diego pre-game rally last week, when Shawne Merriman leads a chant of "Brady sucks."

posted by yerfatma at 01:54 PM on January 17

Some Patriot thoughts Lucky! Don't think so! As in all sports, football luck is about putting yourself in a position to capitalize on an opportunity when it presents itself. And then, going the extra to make it happen. As in Troy Brown not being satisfied with just a tackle, but going for the strip - as, it seems that's the model many good defensive teams are using these days. (Think Bears and Ravens for a start.) As in the Chargers defensive player not having the presence to just lay down immediately after interception but trying to run a little - creating the opportunity. Or as in good old Marty and his staff blowing the review on clear TV evidence that the call was correct and wasting a time out in the process. Or the head butt because of lack of control (is that a coaching thing??) Don't you agree that a lot of what happens in these close games is driven by how well the Pats are prepared, not just with a game plan, but in total, so they rarely loose control and are better able to adjust when the original game plan goes south. They just regroup, pull together, try something else, try something else again, and go keep going forward. There might be a Harvard business model in there somewhere, you think? Interesting that when TV tried to interview Gostkowski, he said something like I just kept my head down and kicked it. Then he said "I have to be careful, I'm not allowed to talk to reporters." Perhaps another Belichick policy about keeping the focus and not running at the mouth about how good someone thinks they are and how bad the other guys were and having that come back at the Pats later. Are others listening? It will certainly be tough on Sunday. Boston TV reports today that the Colts have restricted sale of any available tickets to on-site in Indy only, no Ticketmaster or similar. Effectively shutting out Pats fans. I'm not sure the NFL should allow that to happen. I wonder why they don't have allocations for each game like they do for college bowl games? Manning doesn't want any Pats fans in the building at all, wants the place "all blue". He'll need it, he's a choker, just like his father, little brother, and coach. None of them have ever stepped up and won anything big. There's a lot of hype about the Colts re-invented defense. But, I think that needs to be put in perspective. The Chiefs were, after all, a not very good 8-8 with a lousy QB. Good runner in LJ, but I come back to my point (above) about when the game plan goes south. Same problem at KC as the Jets used to have - Herm! As to the Ravens, I think their miserable offense got exposed more than the Colts were so good. It became pretty evident, I think, why McNair was available to them. Unlike Brady, he's not able to pick up a team when it's not going good and carry them along while they get reorganized. Sidebar - I wasn't sure if I was going to see an NFL playoff game or the WWF when Ray Lewis came out of the smoke before the game. I'm not sure the NFL should allow that either. I think it's interesting (perhaps revolting is a better word) all the hype that QBs get these days, especially when they aren't really living up to it. I think, besides McNair, that McNabb, Vick, Eli Manning, Hasselbeck, Romo, and Farve at the end of his career, among others fit in that category. There are too many TV talking heads filling airtime by passing on unrealistic assessments and overrating QBs in an effort to make some excitement where there really is none, in my view. I have a hard time seeing McNabb (remember, he lost four in a row before getting hurt and Garcia saved the Eagles season), Vick or the others being good enough and raising their game enough to win the Super Bowl. For Peyton, the jury is out, he's on his last appeal!

posted by Cape Codder at 02:58 PM on January 17

See grum, I try to change the way things are going and here you are dissin' me. What's really funny to me is that I don't see the riot act being read to you. Also, anyone who has ever played defense, if they had a coach worth his salt, were taught to knock the ball down on 4th. You see the logic was that you not only got the ball back where the offense was, but you also eliminated the possibility of turning the ball over and giving said offense a 1st down. Have you ever played on defense in any kind of organized football, grum? Not trying to be a smart-ass, but I'd really like to know. And before you people start jumping down my throat again, how many of you ever played D?I realize that Pop Warner and High School ball isn't on the level of the pro game, hell it isn't even near college ball, but it is still organized, to say the least. As for the sandlot ball, the point I was trying to make was, that even in a game that was meaningless to everyone but those of us playing, I still played it the right way and I didn't even have to think about it. It was ingrained into everyone of us back then.

posted by hellamarine at 03:39 PM on January 17

We saw that comment the first time. There's no need to say the same thing again.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 04:26 PM on January 17

Sorry, I don't know what happened. I went off to do some gaming, and when I came back it was on the post screen. Didn't realize that it had actually posted already until it was too late to change it.

posted by hellamarine at 11:18 PM on January 17

See grum, I try to change the way things are going and here you are dissin' me. What's really funny to me is that I don't see the riot act being read to you. I think that's because most people caught on that I was just joking with you. If you play football that long, it should be implied that you have the necessary motor skills to catch a football that is thrown your way, if you want to. Also, people didn't leap to attack me because I didn't call you any names.

posted by grum@work at 11:30 AM on January 18

Yeah, you were a real pussy about the whole thing.

posted by yerfatma at 12:14 PM on January 18

Oh right, so when you do it it's okay 'cause it's a joke, but when I do it, it's time to kick me off the site. How many times did I actually call someone a name, grum? Go check how many names I got called. Besides, thee isn't anything you can call me that I haven't alreadt been called. In fact, no-one has ever called me anything that compared to what my D.I. called me. I also think it's funny that fatma comes in again with his useful little comments. Hmmm, I'm a pussy, "OH THE HUMANITY!" So how come no-one is screaming to have fatma removed. OMG, he called me a name, whatever will I do? Thanks fatma. ;)

posted by hellamarine at 02:07 PM on January 18

He called grum a pussy. Not you.

posted by jerseygirl at 02:25 PM on January 18

He called grum a pussy. Not you. How do you know? What, are you God or something? Oh, shit. I forgot. Sorry.

posted by tselson at 03:03 PM on January 18

I did mean grum. Next time, I will specify Canadian pussy. I thought the U would give it away. tselson, never underestimate jerseygirl's ability to parse the English language and the order of comments.

posted by yerfatma at 07:56 PM on January 18

My parsing is almost Godlike.

posted by jerseygirl at 08:00 PM on January 18

Sorry fatma, but the "yeah," made it look to me like you were agreeing with grum, and that I was a "pussy". Of course no matter who you meant it for, "pussy" is still name calling and a personal. So jersey, why is it okay for fatma to do it, but not the new guy? I know I'm harping a little, but jeez, I did get vilified earlier. Oh, I know, he was joking, right? I guess that's more okay when you've been here a while too. Maybe I should change my name to hellamartyr. :)

posted by hellamarine at 08:29 PM on January 18

Of course no matter who you meant it for, "pussy" is still name calling and a personal. So jersey, why is it okay for fatma to do it Because it was a joke. Because of the intent behind the remark. Kind of like your brother saying "hey jerk" when you take the last piece of cake is different than the random guy you cut off in traffic saying it. If you're saying that you were joking also, then we'll chalk it up to a misunderstanding. Now that that's out of the way, let's keep it about the chargers, peyton, and brady or let it go.

posted by justgary at 11:52 PM on January 18

I've tried and tried to find a video clip of the "punch" of Phillip Rivers. My google fu is weak and I have failed. Anyone got an idea?

posted by apoch at 07:35 AM on January 19

So jersey, why is it okay for fatma to do it, but not the new guy? I know I'm harping a little, but jeez, I did get vilified earlier. Oh, I know, he was joking, right? I guess that's more okay when you've been here a while too. Maybe I should change my name to hellamartyr. :) Give it a rest. You're not harping a little, you're harping a lot. If you don't have anything to say about the Chargers, or Patriots, then let it go.

posted by jerseygirl at 09:04 AM on January 19

Because it was a joke. Hmmm, didn't I say that? I know you guys all seem to love him, but do you realize Brady's QB rating was 57.6? Hell, even Grossman's was higher. Of course River's, McNair, and Manning were lower, but a 57.6 isn't exactly blazing trails either. Rivers had a 55.5, so for the game, according to rating anyway, they were pretty equal. Nope, QB didn't win this game. Before you start on me again, I would like to point out that Rivers at least got his Pro Bowl kicker in position to attempt a game tying field goal. Considering this was his first ever playoff start, I'd say that's not so shabby. Of course Brady's kicker made his 31 yarder, so Brady is the second-coming. If you're going to sing Brady's praises, then you need to sing for Rivers also. The Chargers last drive started on the 25 with 1:05 on the clock, and no timeouts left. All Rivers did was to get them down the field and in position to tie. That said, both QBs really stunk until the final few minutes, and I think that the McRee interception woke Brady up as he played better after it. Still, as bad as he was the rest of the game, he didn't have to go far to improve.

posted by hellamarine at 09:10 AM on January 19

Give it a rest. You're not harping a little, you're harping a lot. And what are you doing then?

posted by hellamarine at 09:12 AM on January 19

Right now? Sitting in the office, answering emails. You're thoughtful to ask. Let it go.

posted by jerseygirl at 09:22 AM on January 19

I think most of the praise for Brady is from his field of work in the playoffs, not from his admittedly poor performance in the game against the Chargers. Rivers did make some good plays right at the end. Not quite good enough to get the kicker in closer. You can blame that on playcalling, wide recievers not getting yac, whatever you want. He played pretty well on the big stage of the playoffs. The closest thing to reading Brady being praised over Rivers (without rereading the whole thread) was early on when someone said Brady should have gone to the Pro Bowl instead of Rivers. That's a whole nother argument. Rivers is young and should have plenty of more chances in the playoffs, especially sharing the backfield with LT.

posted by apoch at 09:24 AM on January 19

I would like to point out that Rivers at least got his Pro Bowl kicker in position to attempt a game tying field goal. I would like to point out Brady's team won. He was playing arguably the best defense in the playoffs (though it doesn't have the secondary that Baltimore does) and throwing to a cast of castoffs. He didn't have a good game, but I'll take his second half, other than the poor pick Troy Brown saved him on.

posted by yerfatma at 10:20 AM on January 19

do you realize Brady's QB rating was 57.6? God I hate QB ratings. They don't matter a bit. It's like a guy in hoops going to the free-throw line, his team down by 1, shooting two shots, with tenths of a second left in a huge game. Even if this guy's free-throw percentage is less than 50 percent for the season, if he makes those two particular shots at crunch time in the big game, that's all that matters. He's 100 percent when it mattered most. Brady showed me what he was about in his first Super Bowl appearance. Everyone, including Madden (not that THAT means too much) expected him to run out the clock and play for overtime. After all, he was young, fairly inexperienced, and he ran a huge risk of possibly turning the ball over deep in their own territory and allowing the Rams a chance to win the game. But he calmly led the Pats downfield and, of course, they won the game, starting them on the impressive streak that has made them the best team in recent NFL history. Stats are misleading; Wins are all that's important.

posted by dyams at 11:33 AM on January 19

dyams, I agree that wins count more than stats. However, stats are still a measure of how someone performed. I realize Brady won. I'm merely trying to use the stats to point out that his performance was really subpar overall. fatma, I agree with you some, but I wouldn't take Brady's entire second half, just the last 6:16 (time remaining when he got the ball back after the int).

posted by hellamarine at 01:25 PM on January 19

Even if this guy's free-throw percentage is less than 50 percent for the season, if he makes those two particular shots at crunch time in the big game, that's all that matters. He's 100 percent when it mattered most. The problem is, maybe next season that player (or someone on his team) doesn't get a chance to make those important free throws because they are trailing by 10 instead of 2 (or they don't play an important game), a result of "Mr. Clutch" still throwing up bricks earlier in the game (or season). Or, maybe if he wasn't "Joe the Bricklayer" earlier in the game, those later free throws wouldn't have been as important. Brady showed me what he was about in his first Super Bowl appearance. Everyone, including Madden (not that THAT means too much) expected him to run out the clock and play for overtime. After all, he was young, fairly inexperienced, and he ran a huge risk of possibly turning the ball over deep in their own territory and allowing the Rams a chance to win the game. I'm not sure why you give the credit to Brady when it was obviously Belichick who made the decision to "go for it". Yes, give credit to Brady for not throwing an interception, but that's his job. The overall decision making was the coach's, not his. Stats are misleading; Wins are all that's important. Individual stats are important; associating wins to a single player in a team sport like football is misleading. Individual players don't win games, but great ones help their teams win. How do we know they are great? By the stats the produce on the field.

posted by grum@work at 01:37 PM on January 19

Very well said, grum. I couldn't agree with you more, and if I didn't work graveyard, I might have been awake enough to put it as eloquently as you just did. That said, even though Brady was below average for the better part of the game, he did elevate his play when it mattered most. The point I guess I was trying to make was this: If either Brady or Rivers had played well from the opening whistle, it would never have come down to the end. I know I'm repeating myself, but this New England win goes to the defense. They kept it close so Brady could pull some of his last minute heroics.

posted by hellamarine at 02:48 PM on January 19

Yes, give credit to Brady for not throwing an interception, but that's his job. The overall decision making was the coach's, not his. Pretty much the team concept idea exactly. Sum is greater than the whole of its parts and what not. Brady is an outstanding individual, but unlike other sports you almost always need someone else to help your success. Whether it's a a tough catch, huge block, clean handoff, great pass or tough call from the sideline there's almost always two or more parts to the equation. How do we know they are great? By the stats the produce on the field. grum, I'd never question your ability to accurately use stats, but don't you have to frame any football statistical discussion completely differently than any baseball or free-throw-esque discussion? I feel like it's pretty accepted that QB rating is anything but a perfect system, but in lieu of it there would be nothing.

posted by YukonGold at 08:30 PM on January 19

You know what reaaly drives me crazy, missed free-throws. I've watched too many games where making them could of turned the game the other way. Hell, I'm old and fat, but even I can make a free-throw.

posted by hellamarine at 11:29 PM on January 19

Not only a prime defensive back but a shooter too? How's your slider? Could be a triple threat.

posted by YukonGold at 07:49 AM on January 20

When talking about Brady's year and stats, however, remember who he's throwing to. This crop of receivers they put around him the past (current) season were nothing but basically castoffs or rookies. Everyone he's been used to throwing to, including his favorite target, were sent elsewhere or allowed to leave. That was always the convenient excuse for McNabb (until he went to the Super Bowl with McNabb), so Brady should be given some credit for getting to the AFC Championship with a whole new cast. I'm a big fan of the overall talent of Peyton Manning, but he's had the luxury of keeping Reggie Wayne and Marvin Harrison the last several years. Tell me there's any trio in the league more accustomed and comfortable with each other than they are.

posted by dyams at 07:53 AM on January 20

No question about the comfortability of Brady vs. Manning. I think that's why you're seeing such a stark difference between earlier in the year and now with the Pats passing game. Caldwell was brought in as a free agent, so I wouldn't call him a cast off. But the Patriots have always found diamonds from the trash heap. Branch, Givens, Patten...none of these guys are unbelievable receivers, they developed into something with Brady. They certainly aren't experiencing the same success without him.

posted by YukonGold at 08:08 AM on January 20

I really wasn't sure how to classify Caldwell. His first year in the NFL was 2002, and the most receptions he ever posted, up until this year, was 28. Jabar Gaffney doesn't thrill many people (and hasn't thrilled many this year, either), and Jackson could be good in coming years. The only other receiver of any note is Troy Brown, who was basically almost an afterthought coming into this season. I actually thought he'd be gone from the team until Branch ended up going elsewhere. Any way you cut it, it's far from what you'd call an elite group of receivers. The Pats will probably have a bit more success establishing the run this weekend, which should (obviously) help their passing game. The Colts' "D" is playing much, much better, but the Pats offer more of a challenge than the one-dimensional Chiefs and the no-dimensional (offense, I'm talking about) Ravens.

posted by dyams at 11:18 AM on January 20

grum, I'd never question your ability to accurately use stats, but don't you have to frame any football statistical discussion completely differently than any baseball or free-throw-esque discussion? I feel like it's pretty accepted that QB rating is anything but a perfect system, but in lieu of it there would be nothing. Agreed. There has to be some sort of method of separating individual accomplishments from team assistance. For wide receivers, you'd have to examine things like "yards after catch" and "dropped passes". For running backs, you might need to examine "net yards per carry", which would take into account how the second and third running backs do with the same offensive line. For quarterbacks, you'd need to count "passes on target", interceptions per attempts and average yards per throw (not including runs after the catch). To be honest, touchdowns are not great measurement tools for quarterbacks since they are usually just 5-yard out patterns, or regular passes where the receiver has broken a tackle and scampered for the remaining 30 yards. Yes, the occasional streak pattern or hail-mary should count. If I was more of a football fan, I'd probably visit this site more often.

posted by grum@work at 02:05 PM on January 20

Yeah, I keep the RSS feed for FO in bloglines. They definitely have the best statistical slant.

posted by YukonGold at 04:00 PM on January 20

Shit's a little dry though. I used to subscribe, but there's only so many articles about DVOA I can read. Not quite the same as baseball.

posted by yerfatma at 04:04 PM on January 20

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