FanDuel - WFBC

October 01, 2006

Grimsley Called Clemens, Tejada and Pettitte Steroid Abusers: The teammates identified by Jason Grimsley as steroid abusers, previously blacked out in an affadavit, are Roger Clemens, Miguel Tejada, Andy Pettitte, Brian Roberts, Jay Gibbons and the previously identified David Segui, according to today's Los Angeles Times.

posted by rcade to baseball at 09:08 AM - 76 comments

You know the sad thing is to me that if this situation plays out like most other accusations of PEDs is that it will hound these players the rest of their careers, regardless if they ever have used them. Being a Royals fan (yes, there are a ew faithful), i know that some in KC thought grimsley was kind of a jerk. Many woulnd't be surprised if he did this just to get face time or revenge at these players for whatever reason. Both groups are innocent (grimsley & the accused) until proven guilty, but it is food for thought.

posted by brainofdtrain at 10:17 AM on October 01

I think it's unlikely Grimsley would risk lying to FBI agents to get revenge at former teammates.

posted by rcade at 10:37 AM on October 01

It's a big, big risk just to make your enemies look bad. Tejada's name has now surfaced twice (Rafy naming him as the guy who shot him up). What's the saying? Where there is smoke, there's fire.

posted by igottheblues at 10:47 AM on October 01

I can see the other guys,but not Pettite,Come On!

posted by zane71 at 11:15 AM on October 01

" I would like to state for the record that I have NEVER taken any kind of performancing enhancing drugs, PERIOD!" before my name comes out of the mouth of these so called credible sources

posted by jknemo at 11:23 AM on October 01

Clemens and Pettite = both accused of PED use; Clemens and Pettite = both have woman hips. Coincidence? Oh, I think not. Plus, rcade hits it right on the unitard. Grimsley's up shit creek, he knows it, his lawyers know it, and any dicking around just to get "face time or revenge" is highly unlikely. He's singin' like a bird, buddy, and he knows if he steps out of line, the feds will roast his ass, and they've got a lot of different ways to do it right now.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 11:28 AM on October 01

If you use the criteria applied to Bonds, like his enlarged head, his bad attitude (like throwing the bat at Piazza in the 2000 world series) and his inexplicable ability to compete at a high level well into his 40's, then Clemens should have been an obvious steriod suspect well before this. But when I posted this in a Clemens thread a few months ago on Spofi, here's the response from YUKON GOLD: There are knucklehead fans in every city, you may qualify. Previously jumping into a Clemens thread and screaming steroids would my first piece of evidence to the jury. Hey Yukon, I may be a knucklehead. But I'm also right. Anytime you want to apologize, I'm listening.

posted by cjets at 11:35 AM on October 01

Revenge is a dish best served on SportsFilter. Yukon stick that in your pipe and smoke it!

posted by rcade at 11:38 AM on October 01

Yeah, Grimsley is screwed, which means the odds of him being accurate about his testimony go way up. My schadenfreude at Clemens' name showing up in the testimony is lost in the sadness that this thing is going to keep growing legs for a long while yet.

posted by chicobangs at 11:44 AM on October 01

If true, of Clemens, it places a dark mark on a Hall of Fame career that might miss the Hall now. That desire to compete at the end of a career may have ruined another

posted by simiross at 11:51 AM on October 01

Hey Yukon, I may be a knucklehead. But I'm also right. I think it's a little early to be declaring yourself "right". You are basing it on rumours about a blacked-out affadavit, from a sleazy source, to an IRS agent who has a known agenda to hunt down steroid users. It's quite possible the names listed are ones that Novitsky proposed to Grimsley and Jason said "sure/maybe/okay" in order to cut a deal. It should be pointed out that since Grimsley has acquired a lawyer, he is refuting his statements made during that time. If this is "right", then I guess everyone was "right" about Richard Jewell, too. This isn't the same case they have against Bonds (multiple sources, documents, etc). This is just one guy saying something, and we don't even know exactly what was said. If you use the criteria applied to Bonds, like his enlarged head, his bad attitude (like throwing the bat at Piazza in the 2000 world series like punching out Ventura) and his inexplicable ability to compete at a high level well into his 40's, then Clemens Nolan Ryan should have been an obvious steriod suspect well before this. Fixed that for you. Yeah, Grimsley is screwed, which means the odds of him being accurate about his testimony go way up. Unless, of course, he was looking to cut a deal with the feds and was answering "yes" to every name they threw in front of him.

posted by grum@work at 11:52 AM on October 01

BTW: my over/under on the comment count by 11:59pm CDT today is 54. Normally this topic would draw more, but Sundays are slow due to NFL games on TV.

posted by grum@work at 11:54 AM on October 01

If this is "right", then I guess everyone was "right" about Richard Jewell, too. Grum, was there an eyewitness who implicated Richard Jewell? I don't think so. Which makes this a completely different situation. And as far as fixing my post, I noticed you didn't address the whole "enlarged head" portion. That's the best physical evidence I can think of. Bonds and Giambi both have the enlarged head. And so does Clemens. Nolan Ryan did not have the big head syndrome. Explain that. I'll give you this. The jury is still out on Clemens. But I was/am right to suspect him. And I don't think there's another reason for someone's head to mysteriously grow in their late 30', early 40's.

posted by cjets at 12:03 PM on October 01

cjets, I have a large head too, which wasn't so big in my teens. Saying that's an obvious symptom of steroid abuse is like saying that because I have a cough, I must be a chainsmoker.

posted by chicobangs at 12:17 PM on October 01

Let me quickly clarify (during the commercial break) An ADULT HEAD is not supposed to enlarge in one's 30's especially to the extent that Bonds, Clemens et al. have. If someone has evidence to the contrary, please share. And the enlarged head is evidence of steroid use. Just as a hacking cough is evidence that someone is a chainsmoker. I would expect a teenage head to grow, just as the rest of their body does. This is taking away too much time from football.

posted by cjets at 12:58 PM on October 01

I have a large head too They say the ones who brag about how big it is are really the folks who have small ones. I'm not ready to indict Clemens just yet, but I am now kinda suspicious. That said, there would have to be some serious evidence to keep him out of the Hall. Grum, I get the point you're making, but I don't see how defending yourself when someone charges you on the mound is anywhere comparable to throwing a chunk of bat at someone.

posted by SummersEve at 01:09 PM on October 01

Grum, I get the point you're making, but I don't see how defending yourself when someone charges you on the mound is anywhere comparable to throwing a chunk of bat at someone. Well, the bat throwing incident is also overblown as it was chucked well in front of Piazza and had no chance of actually hitting him. Grum, was there an eyewitness who implicated Richard Jewell? I don't think so. Which makes this a completely different situation. Not that different, since there is nothing in the affadavit that says Grimsley saw anyone use the PEDs. He just names people he "knows" used them. He doesn't state that he saw them use them. Remember that Richard Jewell was the one that found the explosive device, so there were many "eyewitnesses" that "implicated" Jewell in the attack.

posted by grum@work at 01:22 PM on October 01

Well, the bat throwing incident is also overblown as it was chucked well in front of Piazza and had no chance of actually hitting him. Just because it was a bad throw doesn't mean there wasn't bad intent. You had to see the look of absolute rage on Clemen's face when he threw the bat. It was as if he blamed Piazza for the bat coming near him. Not that different, since there is nothing in the affadavit that says Grimsley saw anyone use the PEDs. Yeah, I winced when I reread eyewitness. But I still think it's apple and oranges. MLB is plagued by a steriod problem. I don't recall security guards as a group being involved with bombings. Jewell is only relevant as a cautionary tale about not assuming someone is guility until they're tried and convicted. By the way, the enlarged head? It's called acromegaly and it is a side effect of HGH. The below the courtesy of The Steroid Era Blog Spot. http://thesteroidera.blogspot.com/2006/08/all-known-performance-enhancing-drugs.html Human Growth Hormone (hGH, Somatropin, Serostim) Medical Use: Used to correct stunted growth in children with hormone deficiency, and to treat AIDS wasting. Performance-Enhancing Use: It builds muscle and strengthens connective tissue, and decreases recovery time, especially when taken in combination with steroids or insulin. Some users report improved eyesight. Side Effects: Thyroid deficiency, acromegaly (a condition marked by growth of hands, feet and head), enlarged heart, cancer. Known Users: Barry Bonds, Jason Grimsley, Jeremy Giambi, David Segui, Jose Canseco, Paxton Crawford, Wilson Alvarez, Tony Saunders, Mark McGwire, Bobby Estalella, Armando Rios, Lenny Dykstra, Jim Leyritz

posted by cjets at 01:38 PM on October 01

the bat throwing incident is also overblown Gotcha.

posted by SummersEve at 01:39 PM on October 01

What evidence is there of "head growth", and/or "womans hips" in the aforementioned players? BTW, if you have ever seen the off-season training regime that Pettite and Clemens practice, which stresses lower body strength, then maybe you would have an inkling as to an answer to your absurd suggestion. Grimsley was singin' in the wrong key and is denying it now. Womans hips? C'mon.

posted by mjkredliner at 01:57 PM on October 01

Grimsley never said Clemens used steroids. According to the affidavit, Grimsley told investigators that Clemens "used athletic performance-enhancing drugs." He accused the Baltimore players of steroid use.

posted by catfish at 02:13 PM on October 01

Jewell is only relevant as a cautionary tale about not assuming someone is guility until they're tried and convicted. That's the point I was trying to make. The FBI leaped on the idea based on VERY flimsy evidence (lone bomber profile, which makes assumptions based on previous cases), which is similar to the "big head", over 40 excellence profiling I'm reading in here. Known Users: Barry Bonds, Jason Grimsley, Jeremy Giambi, David Segui, Jose Canseco, Paxton Crawford, Wilson Alvarez, Tony Saunders, Mark McGwire, Bobby Estalella, Armando Rios, Lenny Dykstra, Jim Leyritz No offence if I kind of ignore this list since it seems to contain an awful lot of players that probably shouldn't be listed as "known users".

posted by grum@work at 02:37 PM on October 01

Example: Jim Leyritz He's only ever admitted to using amphetamines, not human growth hormones.

posted by grum@work at 02:48 PM on October 01

That's the point I was trying to make. The FBI leaped on the idea based on VERY flimsy evidence (lone bomber profile, which makes assumptions based on previous cases), which is similar to the "big head", over 40 excellence profiling I'm reading in here. Point made. But Jewell was looking at life imprisonment if not the death penalty. What penalty is Clemens looking at, if anything? Loss of his reputation? And the "profiling" you speak of fails to take into account that steroid use (excuse me: Performance Enhancing drug use) is a plague in baseball. I still think bringing up Jewell is trying to stuff a square peg in a round hole. As far as the enlarged head, look at a photo of Clemens from 1986 and compare it to a photo of him now. That looks like head growth to me.

posted by cjets at 03:14 PM on October 01

If a temper and swollen heads are indicators of PED use, then we must consider Juan Marichal and Johnny Roseboro, I'm sure Roseboro's head was much larger after after Marichal's bat was used as a PED.

posted by jknemo at 03:46 PM on October 01

As far as the enlarged head, look at a photo of Clemens from 1986 and compare it to a photo of him now. That looks like head growth to me. Actually, to be fair, you'd need to take pictures of a bunch of 20-something athletes and compare them to pictures of them when they are 40-something. If Clemens is the only one with a "big head" compared to his younger self, then I'd say you've got a point. I mean, are you willing to point at Mad Dog Maddux and call him a PED user? Age 20 (ignore the pimp 'stache, if you can, click pic for bigger version) Age 40 Look how much fatter Maddux's face is now. Look how skinny that neck was.

posted by grum@work at 04:42 PM on October 01

Looks like there's a piece of hobo stuck in his throat from his last "culling session."

posted by chicobangs at 04:44 PM on October 01

Grum, I'm almost willing to concede the point for the opportunity to see Maddux with that pimp stache. It's worth the price of admission. But don't confuse a fatter face with an enlarged head. And Maddux was not named in a federal affidavit. Nor does he have the skills he had 10 years ago. I don't discount your arguments. But someone could make the argument that Bonds never knowingly took steroids either.

posted by cjets at 05:11 PM on October 01

A fatter face is not a bigger head.

posted by urall cloolis at 05:14 PM on October 01

that steroid use (excuse me: Performance Enhancing drug use) There's a considerable difference between steroids & performance enhancers(including hgh) which is why I brought up the point. Grimsley said steroids were used by the Baltimore players & performance enhancers were used by Clemens. rcade's post is misleading.

posted by catfish at 05:30 PM on October 01

The fatter face is because he got FAT! Not steroids. Also, with Pettite arm troubles are often sideffects of steroid use. What has Pettite had lately? Arm troubles if you didn't guess that already. Oh, and Bonds hasn't been legaly linked to steriods yet. All the stuff we know has been leaked illegaly.

posted by kidrayter2005 at 05:36 PM on October 01

A fatter face is not a bigger head. Then please show me the visual proof that Clemens has a bigger head and not a fatter face. Also, with Pettite arm troubles are often sideffects of steroid use. What has Pettite had lately? Arm troubles if you didn't guess that already. Oh, come on. Pitchers have been having "arm trouble" for over one hundred years. It's the nature of the position. It's a bit hysterical to suddenly blame every arm injury on PED use. Even better, if a pitcher is able to perform well in his 40s WITHOUT arm trouble, that's also a sign of PED use, right? After all, the PED use is making him stronger in his later years. No wonder some people compare this to the Salem witch trials. And Maddux was not named in a federal affidavit. Not yet.

posted by grum@work at 09:19 PM on October 01

Why do any number of people on here hate Greg Maddux, just wondering?

posted by tommytrump at 11:42 PM on October 01

Why do any number of people on here hate Greg Maddux, just wondering? Greg Maddux is the single most feared man in professional, organized sports. Get out of the way if you see him coming. It's better if you just don't make him mad. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

posted by grum@work at 12:03 AM on October 02

SuperGrum to the rescue! cjets, you should really get that book deal signed now. Amazing detective work. Still doesn't change the context in which you broke your big story, but had you not I wouldn't feel this excruciating and unbearable burn. Glad to know I had such an impact though...touching

posted by YukonGold at 07:05 AM on October 02

Well, the bat throwing incident is also overblown as it was chucked well in front of Piazza and had no chance of actually hitting him. He looked like a raging nut in front of the entire baseball-loving world. Though his chances of hurting Piazza were slim, I don't think it's an overstated incident given how crazy he seemed at that moment.

posted by rcade at 07:18 AM on October 02

What bothers me about this whole situation is that when Jose Canseco first came out saying, this person is on the juice and that person is on the juice, the first thing people said was, Barry Bonds MUST be on something. Look, I know that we have plenty of Hall of Famers that are being thrown under the bus before any concrete proof is being found. Barry Bonds has been the target of every investigation and I just hope that people look at Clemens, Pettitte or Tejada the same way they did when Bonds' name first came up. I don't want to sound ignorant to the fact the baseball does not test for HGH but unless these guys are found guilty of anything, leave them alone!! I know that Clemens will never be made as a villian in this whole fiasco as Bonds' is and I find that to be a shame since they should both be in the Hall regardless. Anyone can accuse someone for anything....but where's the proof?

posted by BornIcon at 07:57 AM on October 02

And I don't think there's another reason for someone's head to mysteriously grow in their late 30', early 40's. It does if you're Irish. Seriously, watch as Conan O'Brien's (or any male Kennedy) head expands over time. This is what I have to look forward too.

posted by mick at 08:00 AM on October 02

You are basing it on rumours about a blacked-out affadavit, from a sleazy source, to an IRS agent who has a known agenda to hunt down steroid users. It's quite possible the names listed are ones that Novitsky proposed to Grimsley and Jason said "sure/maybe/okay" in order to cut a deal. If Grimsley was just agreeing to everything, then he would have agreed that Bonds was on something as well. That's what it seems they were looking for and he didn't give them that. Instead, he mentioned an assortment of other players, some stars and some not. At least one person he allegedly mentioned later admitted HGH use.

posted by bperk at 09:32 AM on October 02

That person is David Segui and he's no longer playing ball. He was on HGH per docter's orders

posted by BornIcon at 10:15 AM on October 02

I bet Grimsley is super popular at those baseball fantasy camps because of this.

posted by fenriq at 10:22 AM on October 02

The worst part of all this is that now Clemens is probably going to pitch another year, if only out of spite. Just when I thought I was done seeing his short temper, fat head and womanly hips. Stupid, Sexy Rocket.

posted by chicobangs at 10:33 AM on October 02

If Grimsley was just agreeing to everything, then he would have agreed that Bonds was on something as well. Except that he never played with Barry Bonds, so it would have been VERY unlikely that sort of testimony would be useful in any way.

posted by grum@work at 11:22 AM on October 02

The worst part of all this is that now Clemens is probably going to pitch another year, if only out of spite. Of course, if he finally DOES retire after this season (and it sticks), then everyone will point and say "See! He's retiring because of the scandal! I knew he was guilty!"

posted by grum@work at 11:24 AM on October 02

Grum, I asked why they hate Maddux, you just gave me examples of people spouting off about him. Is there some actual fact based reason he's so disliked, any time I've seen him interviewed he has come across as a normal ball player. Did he actually kill a hooker, eat kitttens, and hang out with Mother Teresa, or is this some elaborate urban legend that just continues to build on itself.

posted by tommytrump at 11:25 AM on October 02

I can't believe you haven't heard about all that Maddux has done. Where have you been? Just last week, he kicked an elderly woman down a staircase.

posted by bperk at 11:28 AM on October 02

Actually, tommy, you're close. He actually ate Mother Theresa (fava beans, nice chianti, the whole sixty and a half feet), he hangs out with kittens and hookers, and he kills hoboes for sport. Plus, he totally cheats on his taxes and he pays Stephen A. Smith's salary out of his own pocket just to keep him on the air. (What did you think the deal was with Stephen A.? Come on.) Have you noticed how no new parents are naming their kids "Greg" or "Adolf" or "Voldemort" anymore? There's a reason for that.

posted by chicobangs at 11:36 AM on October 02

As much as I love to watch clemens squirm, this is just a blip on the radar unless more comes out. That said, there appears to be two camps on the subject. Those willing to throw him under the bus, and those who will defend him to the bitter end. This isn't a new thing with clemens, and I'm amazed when people seem indignant that his name should be brought up in the conversation. The same thing happened with bonds (and the same people defended him), and as more and more evidence came out, his defenders slowly vanished. At this point, clemens should be looked at no differently, but if it comes out tomorrow that he's guilty, I'm not sure how anyone would be shocked. the bat throwing incident is also overblown Maybe if the play is taken in a vacuum. But with: 1. the two players involved being superstars (at the time) (not to mention clemens rep as a hot head) 2. the history between the two players 3. the setting-- the world series 4. the fact that after decades of watching every level of baseball I've never seen anything like that play I don't see anyway that play was overblown. It'll still be discussed 50 years from now. It was that bizarre.

posted by justgary at 12:15 PM on October 02

Didn't Greg Maddux just win the World Series of Poker main event?

posted by GOD at 12:56 PM on October 02

Yeah, by stabbing Johnny Chan in the eye with a screwdriver just before they turned over the flop.

posted by Venicemenace at 01:17 PM on October 02

Jason Grimsley as Elia Kazan? Clemens' throwing the bat at Piazza six years ago as evidence of being 'roid raging? Fat face vs. big head? Really - I got nothing. This is altenating between amusing and depressing at an astonishing rate. And Maddux waltzes behind the curtain, tugging at the puppet strings as he dances in an orgy of blood.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 01:17 PM on October 02

Yup, he did "win" the WSOP. And on the same day he stoleded the WWE World Title belt, no less. Now Maddux, he a gambler, and he like his fancy clothes. (He like to wave his diamond rings in front of everybody's nose.) He got a custom Continental, he got a Eldorado too, he got a .32 gun in his pocket for fun, and he got a razor in his shoe.

posted by chicobangs at 01:18 PM on October 02

Looks like there's a piece of hobo stuck in his throat from his last "culling session." Didn't Greg Maddux just win the World Series of Poker main event? Yeah, by stabbing Johnny Chan in the eye with a screwdriver just before they turned over the flop. And Maddux waltzes behind the curtain, tugging at the puppet strings as he dances in an orgy of blood.
Hehe... this stuff never fails to make me laugh out loud. This is the best running gag at sportsfilter, ever! :)

posted by hincandenza at 01:28 PM on October 02

bastards!

posted by LaKeR4LiFe at 02:08 PM on October 02

Grum, I asked why they hate Maddux, you just gave me examples of people spouting off about him. Read my comment again, this time taking notice of the various font formats used. /joke = killed when it's explained

posted by grum@work at 02:33 PM on October 02

mjk, take the joke, man, take the joke. I was not seriously suggesting, for even one second, that having an ass like a fat girl is a side effect of PED abuse. But Pettite and Clemens both have woman hips, and deep in the heart of Texas, you know it's true. Maddux never did come up with an alibi for the latter half of 1888. I can't prove that he was hanging around Whitechapel...I just know it.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 03:06 PM on October 02

He didn't need an alibi. He just totally stole the Time Machine from H.G. Wells and did it on one of his off-days from the Cubs. Didn't you see the movie they made of it? I can't believe he still walks among us. Why, just last week he broke Lindsay Lohan's wrist, married Howard whassisface and Anna Nicole, and served as Dustin Diamond's fluffer. Busy guy.

posted by chicobangs at 03:52 PM on October 02

Thanks Grum, I arrived late for the show, but I understand you'll be here all week, and yes, I'll try the veal.

posted by tommytrump at 04:00 PM on October 02

and served as Dustin Diamond's fluffer I could have done without that image. Thanks, chico.

posted by bperk at 04:00 PM on October 02

Do I have some awful news por vous.

posted by yerfatma at 06:21 PM on October 02

Now I don't even remember what the original topic of this thread was. Oh yeah, how Maddux actually eats kittens. Right?

posted by kidrayter2005 at 07:39 PM on October 02

No, the topic has moved on.

posted by yerfatma at 06:59 AM on October 03

But Pettite and Clemens both have woman hips. and deep in the heart of Texas,you know it's true. Read My Hips. I reckon that, Deep In The Heart Of Texas, we jus' don't appreciate the centerfield camera shots quite like you do, TBH.

posted by mjkredliner at 07:28 AM on October 03

Wow, I really didn't want to know about the Screech Sex tape but okay.

posted by kidrayter2005 at 03:11 PM on October 03

You just didn't know that you wanted to know, you know?

posted by jerseygirl at 03:29 PM on October 03

The SpofiWiki needs a "Greg Maddux Facts" page. STAT!

posted by lilnemo at 06:50 PM on October 03

Deep In The Heart Of Texas, we jus' don't appreciate the centerfield camera shots quite like you do, TBH. No, you're just not being honest with yourselves.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 06:12 AM on October 04

"I'm not a gay pedophile, I'm just a drunk." -Rep Mark Foley

posted by SummersEve at 07:49 AM on October 04

"We're from Texas, screw you" -Ray Wylie Hubbard

posted by mjkredliner at 09:46 AM on October 04

"Holy dog shit. Texas? Only steers and queers come from Texas, Private Cowboy. And you don't look much like a steer to me so that kinda narrows it down. Do you suck dicks?" -Gunnery Sgt Hartman

posted by SummersEve at 09:51 AM on October 04

"When you throw dirt, you're losin' ground" -Bum Phillips Foley is Massachusetts born and represents Florida, what do you expect?

posted by mjkredliner at 09:53 AM on October 04

TBH, your "woman hips" analogy reminds me of another poor comparism, but, I guess it is all in the eyes of the beholder.

posted by mjkredliner at 10:21 AM on October 04

Foley is Massachusetts born and represents Florida, what do you expect? .

posted by jerseygirl at 10:57 AM on October 04

Foley is Massachusetts born and represents Florida, what do you expect? A really funny accent?

posted by SummersEve at 11:03 AM on October 04

Foley is Massachusetts born and represents Florida, what do you expect? Explain what you mean.

posted by yerfatma at 12:01 PM on October 04

Explain what you mean. I fear that my contributions to an already less than stellar thread are quite sufficient, so I will step over that pile of shit if you don't mind, sir. Amongst other flaws, nothing Grimsley is alleged to have said has been admitted to by him. This was merely an exercise in rumor mongering/and expressions of personal opinions that hardly hold sand, mine included. (Although, some of the Maddux cracks were pretty funny.)

posted by mjkredliner at 01:05 PM on October 04

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