FanDuel - WFBC

February 12, 2006

Stewart Rips NASCAR For 'Dangerous' Racing: Defending Nextel Cup series champion Tony Stewart criticized superspeedway racing following his third-place finish in the Budweiser Shootout on Sunday, saying ``we're going to hurt somebody really, really bad.'' Is restrictor-plate racing too dangerous?

posted by wingnut4life to auto racing at 07:32 PM - 60 comments

NASCAR certainly has many speed and safety issues. I think that we need to make NASCAR turn intself into the Arena Football League, a safer and wussier version of the actual sport. We do not need another #3 at Daytona. Dale, you're gone, but not forgotten. 1951- 2001

posted by Joe88 at 09:30 PM on February 12

What was the speech from DAYS OF THUNDER ? He didn't hit you, he didn't slam you, he rubbed you and rubbin's racing.

posted by what the? at 09:34 PM on February 12

Yeah and if they slow the cars down and take to many percautions all they are going to do is turn more people off of NASCAR. Hey it's the risk you take to make all that money and if your only going 150mph no one will watch so stop your cry babying "Stewart" and keep collecting those big checks your getting because your going balls to the wall and people are loving every minute of it. Oh and that's right you are not forgotten THREEEEEEEEEEEE I know he wouldn't want it any other way either pedal to the metal driving as fast as possible.

posted by BigDogintheCity at 09:35 PM on February 12

Tony wasn't talking about going too fast. What he was talking about was one hitting another in the ass a 180 mph to make him go faster for a short time. Its called a bump draft. That just is not safe and I agree with him. They are also slapping cars side to side to gain a little on each other. That's crazy also.

posted by wwarrior at 09:54 PM on February 12

What they have done is bunch the cars up with the restrictor plates. What it has done is allow a lot of cars with a variety of driver skills to be in a close group at high speeds, rather than the best drivers with the fastest cars leaving these folks behind. Rubbin is racing but not at 180 MPH... Without restrictor plates these superspeedway races would be less competitive and much less desirable to watch and that's why NASCAR has not addressed this situation which has been present for many years in NASCAR.. As for 3 well he won many of these races and his opinion was very similar to Stewarts that the restrictor plates are the cause of the "BIG ONES" at the superspeedways. It "RESTRICTS" the motor making the playing field more equal.

posted by brothersgrim at 10:30 PM on February 12

Tony is right. The race today was wild from start to finish. The back bumpers of the cars look like they have been at a short track and not at Daytona. You can't go running into one another at 180+ mph and not expect something disasterous to happen. I see a rule change coming before Talladega comes around. They will get all those braces and such out from behind the front bumper. That will put an end to bump drafting. Give the cars all the horsepower they can muster. Raise the cars up so a cat can walk under them and cut the rear spoilers down to little or nothing. I guarantee you won't see cars running 200mph and they will lift when going into the corners. The other 32 races don't have a problem putting on a good show without restrictor plates. They can do it at Daytona and Talladega too.

posted by dbt302 at 11:34 PM on February 12

GET RID OF THE RESTRICTOR PLATES ON SUPER SPEEDWAYS AND LET THE BOYS RUN

posted by THE ICE MAN at 02:27 AM on February 13

CountDracula58 The minute you mentioned Rome, I knew you were a complete idiot!!

posted by JALVES at 05:21 AM on February 13

CountDracula58, have you ever been to a race? I love NASCAR and I am not a redneck (unless you consider people from all walks of life rednecks). The thread is about Stewart saying someone was gonna die if the drivers keep driving the way they did in the shootout, not ''Do you like NASCAR'' Stay on topic please or don't post. Now on topic, I think the drivers were more agressive in the shootout (non-points) than they will be in the 500, at least till the last few laps, then look out! There is almost always the big one at the plate tracks, I just hope no one gets hurt. :o)

posted by Steeler_Fan at 05:50 AM on February 13

GET RID OF THE RESTRICTOR PLATES ON SUPER SPEEDWAYS AND LET THE BOYS RUN I agree wholeheartedly, ICE MAN. There are valid points for both sides of this argument. Restrictor-plates on, and you have racers with varying levels of skill bunched up. Plates off, and you have racers with varying skills all over the track. Personally, I want to see the plates off, because if you can't keep up, you're not banging around 'cause you're getting lapped. Plates are one of the main factors in Big E's crash (in my personal opinion).

posted by wingnut4life at 06:51 AM on February 13

Big E wears the HANS (sp?) device, which he flat-out refused to do, and he survives the crash. I feel racing with restrictor plates is kind of ridiculous until you take into consideration the ever-increasing speeds these guys would be topping without them. A lot of the things NASCAR introduced was in an effort to keep those watching the race, at the track, safe also. The roof flaps, keeping the speeds down, etc. keeps cars from going completely out of control and flying into spectators. Yes, it keeps guys bunched up, but that's the way NASCAR likes it, I don't care what they say. And Tony Stewart talking about dangerous driving? That's a bit ironic.

posted by dyams at 07:16 AM on February 13

they let the NHRA run without plates and they run faster than the cup boys do. Let them race

posted by rattlesnake1 at 08:26 AM on February 13

jim rome doesn't say ban the sport dumbaasssss.another so called clone who doesn't understands romies rheteric.he has jimmie johnson on the show almost monthly.down the backstretch is the only place they should be bump drafting and on a long straight away like that it can be done safetly as apposed to the damn dogleg (kurt busch).i'd try smaller fuelcells make pit more that would probably seperate them some,hell i don't know.and you countdracula58 your the idiot JIM ROME RULES.countdracula what the hell is that do you go around telling people your going to suck out thier blood.WAR jeff gordon and dale jr. both making the chase both the icons need to be in the chase.not too many people like both jr.and gordon but those are my 2 favorites.

posted by kckurtbusch at 08:56 AM on February 13

Maybe if they did away with fenders it would solve part of the problem....oh, wait then it would be IRL racing, where driving skills count, not the ability to push someone out of your way. (unless you are Michael Andretti :) )

posted by TKTT1 at 09:02 AM on February 13

Tony Stewart and safe racing....hummm ? But for once i do agree with him. Bunching 43 cars up at 180 MPH is kinda like enticing the big one, (which some folks do enjoy). the teams know how to make their car run 200 MPH and do it safely. I say let the boys run wild, and lets see what happens.

posted by tomthumb at 09:04 AM on February 13

Can they really do 200+ MPH safely? I seem to recall a lot of complaints about Atlanta, which is the fastest non-restrictor plate race.

posted by Smackfu at 09:22 AM on February 13

Watching the way those guys raced, Im am not sure if I really want to watch the 500. bad gut feeling. Surely something can be done. On another note anyone know how the meeting the 99 car had after the race went. Poor judgement in my eyes on both parties.

posted by hump9n at 09:31 AM on February 13

Hey Count Dracula, us rednecks love this SPORT!! It's the fastest growing SPORT in the nation and many tracks are no longer in the south.Most drivers are not from the south either. Since you don't seem to like our REDNECK sport, don't watch!! Or comment. Better yet don't come south!! Dixie_Darlin

posted by ginats at 09:52 AM on February 13

Steeler Fan, I would expect a little more from you! Yes, I have been to a race, I should have spent the money on a couple cases of Iron City! I love all the bashing! Say what you will, I like the abuse! NASCAR is a growing sport, like RAP is a growing genre of music...shows where this world is headed....in the toilet!

posted by CountDracula58 at 10:05 AM on February 13

People would be more likely to let off the gas and save aero if the cars would get back to speed quickly. Drop from 180 to 160 and watch cars blow by you as it takes another half lap to get back up to speed.

posted by tmart937 at 10:06 AM on February 13

They should be more calm come the 500 cause they need the points. This wasn't a point race so there was a lot of all or none attitudes on the track!

posted by tmart937 at 10:09 AM on February 13

Rusty Wallace tested at Talledega last year just FTHOI without a plate. He was runing consistant 218-223. Those speeds are fine until you get morons bump drafting. BS that is just another name for running up someones tailpipe. That is what Stewert is talking about and it is fine on a short track and dirt track but not on a superspeedway.

posted by scottypup at 10:12 AM on February 13

The bud shoot-out, being a 70 lap sprint, no points, just cash and braggin rights till next years run. A reward for winning a pole the previous year (or being a past shoot-out winner). The drivers tend to be a bit more agressive. That said, I doubt the 500 will be driven as recklessly (till the last few laps). I do think Kyle Busch was a bit impatient and looked like he left any driving skill back in at the hauler. I wonder if the new COF's will need restrictor plates when they start running in 2007. Saw some testing at Talladega not too long ago but didnt think to ask if they were running the same V8 set-up.

posted by Folkways at 10:53 AM on February 13

For the fans who want to see "bumping" at 180. Do you also like to kick puppies? Do you laugh when drivers flip over? Next time you are driving down the interstate at 80 I'll come up behind you and give a little "bump". I'm sure you would be fine with!

posted by tmart937 at 11:18 AM on February 13

jim rome doesn't say ban the sport dumbaasssss.another so called clone who doesn't understands romies rheteric.he has jimmie johnson on the show almost monthly.down the backstretch is the only place they should be bump drafting and on a long straight away like that it can be done safetly as apposed to the damn dogleg (kurt busch).i'd try smaller fuelcells make pit more that would probably seperate them some,hell i don't know.and you countdracula58 your the idiot JIM ROME RULES.countdracula what the hell is that do you go around telling people your going to suck out thier blood.WAR jeff gordon and dale jr. both making the chase both the icons need to be in the chase.not too many people like both jr.and gordon but those are my 2 favorites. posted by kckurtbusch at 8:56 AM CST on February 13 I think this idiot proves that NASCAR has a good majority of rednecks as fans, but hell doesn't EVERY sport have their fair share? I am not a big NASCAR fan until the chase starts, too many races, too many drivers, too little competition. I may get railed for saying all this but even Dale Jr. admits that every single driver knows that death and imminent injury are part of being a race car driver, so hell let 'em race, plates or no plates, bump draft or none, everyone wants to see a good pile-up no matter what economic background you come from. In the immortal words of Russ Martin, "Here they come down the stretch and they turn left, now back around and, another left, and now down the straightaway and left, and another...left, and left again, and again.....its mindnumbing!

posted by MackBrown24 at 11:35 AM on February 13

The reason restrictor plates came to be is because Bobby Allison lost control, got sideways, the car got up in the air, and hit the catch fence in Talladega. We don't need cars flying into the grand stands. Cars of today are too easy to drive. Make the drivers lift going into the corners like they do at every other track on the circuit and you don't have this problem. Cut the spoilers down, raise the cars off the ground, and make them less aerodynamic. IRL drivers skillful? Please. They all have the same motor and can only run so fast due to rpm restrictions. Last time I saw an IRL race, they were all bunched up the entire race too.

posted by dbt302 at 12:30 PM on February 13

IRL drivers skillful? Please. They all have the same motor and can only run so fast due to rpm restrictions. That's what makes it a competition of skill, instead of who has the most money to dump it into an engine and chasis.

posted by njsk8r20 at 12:55 PM on February 13

3,000 pound cars on 10 inch tires!!!! These cars are a strong wind away from sliding all over the track. It is very skillfull to drive like that!!!

posted by tmart937 at 01:48 PM on February 13

DO AWAY WITH THE PLATES , LET THE CREW CHIEFS PICK THE SHOCK PACKAGES, GIVE THEM BACK THE SPRING ADJUSTMENTS GIVE THEM BACK THE FUEL CELLS AND LET THEM MAKE THE CHOICES THEY KNOW HOW TO MAKE! LET THE DRIVERS GET TO THE FRONT THE OLD WAY - OUTRUN THE CAR IN FRONT! NASCAR NEEDS TO FOCUS ON MAKING THE TRACKS SAFE. MONEY NEEDS TO BE SPENT ON THIS SOFT WALL TECHNOLOGY. NASCAR IS LOOKING REAL STUPID & GREEDY!

posted by phrank at 02:35 PM on February 13

I don't think making the tracks safe is the problem. How do you keep the cars on the ground if they get out of shape? Like I said before, we don't need 3400 pound cars flying into the grandstands. Every track has the Safer Barriers now. That in itself was millions of dollars spent to make the tracks safe. I am all for getting rid of the restrictor plates but you have to keep the cars on the ground. Get rid of a lot of the down force the cars have today. Square up the bodies more, cut the spoilers down. Make the cars a handful to drive where the real drivers talent shines through.

posted by dbt302 at 02:47 PM on February 13

If countdracula58 knows so much about it he must have been watching too. Think about it.

posted by Sportsjunkey at 03:37 PM on February 13

I think your assesment of the drivers not being agressive next Sunday is under rated. iIt is "THE DAYTONA 500", the most coveted race win in Nascar. Remember who told you, the "BIG ONE" is going to be BIG.

posted by hump9n at 03:53 PM on February 13

I follow NASCAR. I'm from England, and live in the far north of Canada. So about as far away from a redneck as you can get. A couple of years ago Tony got a load of abuse because of his driving, and I recall, on Speed's "Wind Tunnel", someone checked, and statistically, he was no worse than any other driver. It's just because it was Smoke that he got so much attention. Tony is undoubtedly one of the best drivers in America. Anyone who disagrees should go watch the 2004 Daytona 24 hour race and see Tony, in the wet, lap faster than the other DTP cars, when he effectively only had 3 wheels. (Suspension was broken on one of the rear wheels.) Plus his other sportscar outtings, and his Watkins Glen drives in Nextel Cup. (Like in 2004 when he was extremely sick and still won the race.) In short, Tony is a real driver, who has proved that he's not just a "left, left, left" guy. And he's absolutely right. If this Sunday goes off anything like the Shootout, something very bad is definitely possible. And as Hump says, it's the most coveted win of the year. Just like Monaco in F1, the Daytona 500 is the jewel in NASCAR's crown. A driver is about as likely to take it easy as a quarterback in the Superbowl.

posted by Drood at 04:45 PM on February 13

been a tony stewart fan since before 2002. i liked him because he did drive like every lap counted. he is the best contact driver since the intimidator. which makes him the perfect spokesman for the situation. he isn't wussing out, he can handle the car. it is the rookies and cleaner type drivers that are going to suffer the consequences. oh, and good ole boy kudos to tony for helping hamlin to his first nascar victory. that is sportmanship.

posted by skydive at 06:45 PM on February 13

CountDracula58, you bash NASCAR and then accuse us of bashing you? I know it has been said at least a thousand times but here goes again, if you don't like NASCAR then don't post on a NASCAR thread unless the thread title is ''NASCAR, love it or hate it?'' or something to that effect. :o)

posted by Steeler_Fan at 07:42 PM on February 13

NASCAR is ever changing and like many other sports will do what seems right at the time to maintain a level of competition. All of the comments I have read have value...take em off let em race...leave em make it more competitive...have to have them to stay safe chnage the rules to slow them down... I think bottom line is the way it is, is very exciting. 43 cars nose to tail changing places 2, 3, 4 times a lap bumping, grinding racing for positon, it's exciting and if not for the chance that a 10, 12, 14 car pile up, would we be so excited? I think not. Even if it doesnt happen it's the chance that it might, that it has, thats why they race and thats why we watch...kind of like a good horror flick

posted by brothersgrim at 08:53 PM on February 13

mackbrown you can't be a fan only when the chase comes around.so your not a fan,and if you think going fast and making left turns is all it's about ,well who's the IDIOT.to little competition?now i know how much you know about nascar.

posted by kckurtbusch at 09:12 PM on February 13

Two points of order: 1. People can be fans in any way they want. There's no such thing as a "true" fan vs. a "false" fan. That's true for any sport, not just NASCAR. Put that away. 2. If someone's posting just to piss you off (and there's lots of that in this thread), ignore them. Please keep the conversation above the belt, and discuss the topic, not personal attacks.

posted by chicobangs at 09:22 PM on February 13

It seems to me that NASCAR has been doing everything it can to turn it's events into IROC races. All of the cars are almost identical (except the nose and tail ), they all make the same horsepower ( give or take a few ), on the superspeedways they have a restrictor plate so they all go the same speed ( give or take a few mph ) , at some races they impound the cars after qualifying ( so teams can't make their cars better for the race ) and one of the latest things they have done is they no longer let the race teams own tires for their cars, they have to lease them from Goodyear and return any unused tires after the race ( so teams can't test on non-NASCAR tracks ). This stiffels competition and innovation. I understand there needs to be rules, however, the rules need to allow innovative and resourceful people to shine, not lump them together with the not so innovative or resourceful. What's all this about "bump-drafting" being bad? That's just silly!

posted by ayankeefan at 11:11 PM on February 13

We don't need cars flying into the grand stands. One of these days someone is going to have a flipping roll that happens in the wrong place.

posted by Smackfu at 09:51 AM on February 14

don't tell me thier ain't no true fans how would you no chicostick.same goes for you jose

posted by kckurtbusch at 12:46 PM on February 14

theres true and fair weather fans such as yourself

posted by kckurtbusch at 12:47 PM on February 14

Yeah, and I'm sure you were a Kurt Busch fan before he won the championship. That's right, I'm callin' you out, hoss. Saddle up, bandwagons, westward, ho!

posted by The_Black_Hand at 02:49 PM on February 14

don't tell me thier ain't no true fans how would you no chicostick. Chico knows because he makes the rules for being a fan in America. We elected him two years ago. If you missed the vote, well, then you're just not a real sports fan because all the real sports fans made sure to vote. Also, real sports fans know that there's a space before the start of each sentence (except the first) in a paragraph, that was another rule Chico made.

posted by billsaysthis at 03:31 PM on February 14

*genuflects*

posted by DrJohnEvans at 03:49 PM on February 14

Also, real sports fans know that there's a space before the start of each sentence (except the first) in a paragraph, that was another rule Chico made. No, English grammar has nothing to do with being a sports fan. Maybe I'm alone here, but the back-and-forth about misspellings and poor grammar in reply to sports commentary has gotten tired. Not everyone here has the same level of erudition, but those who lack in grammatical knowhow should not automatically have their opinions dismissed. I am concerned that too many legitimate potential contributors are being scared away out of fear that their views will be disregarded in favor of abusive critique of their writing style. Just my opinion, but it ain't called "WriterFilter."

posted by BullpenPro at 03:52 PM on February 14

Yes, but you can't be an effective communicator (in writing) without some semblance of spelling, punctuation, capitalization, and grammar. It wouldn't kill any of the posters here to spend a second re-reading their post before posting, so that the rest of us could understand the point being made. It is hardly a doctorate level critique, so any one with some effort could do it.

posted by bperk at 04:11 PM on February 14

Yes, but you can't be an effective communicator (in writing) without some semblance of spelling, punctuation, capitalization, and grammar. Agreed. I don't mean to get too hot on this -- I just finished reading the Cheney thread, and it's the same thing over there -- a bit tedious. I'm a big supporter of better English usage online, but it's tough to enforce that heavily when your audience is so unpredictable (children, adults of varying educational backgrounds, people for whom English is not a primary language, etc.). This, in my opinion, was not a case of somebody being unable to get their point across -- I think billsays et al. got the point, but were emphasizing their derision with an MLA Handbook to the head. I think the message of "check your work" often gets lost in the wisecrackery, and there's a space between "semblance" and "perfection" that should be met with more tolerance. Again, I'm new here, and it's just an observation.

posted by BullpenPro at 04:27 PM on February 14

BullpenPro, you completely missed my point: if chicobangs proclaims it, we must obey and there are no appeals to logic allowed.

posted by billsaysthis at 06:06 PM on February 15

Uh... oh... my bad... like I said, I'm new... If Chico proclaimed anything about mouthing off with less than 3 months of blog-time logged, I am SO screwed.

posted by BullpenPro at 06:44 PM on February 15

Two complaints I have about spelling/grammar/punctuation/capitalization:

  1. If it's so bad that I have to re-read a comment two or three times, I'm much less likely to take that comment seriously. If it's a small mistake here or there, I really don't care. Unless it's rcade, because I'm always down for sniping at internet celebs.
  2. Please, for the love of all that is holy, at least spell the names of the athletes correctly. It's really hard to take someone seriously as a pundit about a sport if they keep incorrectly spelling the names of the people they are discussing. Here are the ones that bother me the most on SpoFi:
    • Mark McGwire (not Maguire)
    • Roger ClemEns (not ClemOns)
    • Doug Mientkiewicz or Mark Grudzielanek (it is exactly as it sounds, people!)

posted by grum@work at 07:02 PM on February 15

Not that it really amounts to anything, as an occasional poster with a college degree who is also dyslexic if my spelling is a problem for anyone feel free to ignor my post. Belittleing me for it (not that anyone has) will have no effect so save your/our time and move on to the next comment.

posted by Folkways at 08:40 PM on February 15

It isn't really spelling errors. It is more the complete lack of acknowledgement of any grammar rules. If you have periods and capitalize at the beginning of a sentence, then you are already heads and shoulders above some posters.

posted by bperk at 09:13 AM on February 16

My point was that quite a few people here seem to write at the seventh grade level, but it's hard (for me) to know if a) they are, in fact, seventh graders; b) English is their second language and they are at that level in their eduction; c) they are adults who have only had the privilege of education up to the seventh grade; or d) they are lazy slackers who aren't taking the time to show some justice to the language. I agree with bperk that (d) deserves a lot of abuse, but I don't see a lot of deference being made to the possibilities of (a) through (c), and I think THOSE people, as well as people like Folkways who fight different kinds of battles with the language, should be cut some slack.

posted by BullpenPro at 11:09 AM on February 16

I am much less sympathetic than you, bullpen. I would just rather not see those posts of people who are unable, for whatever reason, to communicate with any semblance of basic grammar rules. I cannot recall even ever seeing a well-thought out response from such a person. Those people provide the kind of "insights" that kurtbusch above provided. It doesn't matter why it is he/she has written in that fashion -- what matters is that he/she added nothing of substance to the discussion.

posted by bperk at 11:33 AM on February 16

I disagree. Here's my interpretation of kurtbusch's comments (in short... I hope) starting at the top: 1. He refutes a comment about Jim Rome (fair). He proposes a solution to the bump draft issue at hand (smaller fuel cells -- insightful). Then he responded with ire to a comment by CountDracula that was apparently so offensive it isn't even there anymore (could cut down on the insults, but not terribly out of line) 2. He suggests that someone like Macbrown who only follows the Chase probably doesn't enjoy the sport for all its subtle nuances and isn't really in a position to be making judgments on it (fair). 3 & 4. KC refutes Chico's claim that you cannot make qualitative assessments of a person's fandom. His argument is that there certainly ARE different kinds of fans, the extremes of which are fanatics, who absorb everything they can about a sport, and casual fans who watch from time-to-time and may check out the standings on occassion, but who may not have a real depth of knowledge of the sport. I think he and Chico both misunderstood each other, but the argument MIGHT have been an interesting one if anyone had bothered to pick it up. Of course, then BullpenPro comes along and just derails the whole thread. I think if KC toned down his personal assaults and kept his arguments on the point and not the person, he seems to have some insightful thoughts on NASCAR (a sport of which I admittedly know nothing, nada, zip). If you ask me, it's BullpenPro we should be going after, not KC, for his verbose diatribes that are way off topic.

posted by BullpenPro at 12:26 PM on February 16

I read all of those posts as flying off the handle and throwing insults. Excerpt from first post: jim rome doesn't say ban the sport dumbaasssss.another so called clone who doesn't understands romies rheteric. I didn't get past the first two sentences, both of which threw insults. The second post: mackbrown you can't be a fan only when the chase comes around.so your not a fan,and if you think going fast and making left turns is all it's about ,well who's the IDIOT.to little competition?now i know how much you know about nascar. Now, his second post singles mackbrown out for insult -- calling him an idiot and telling him that he knows nothing about NASCAR. don't tell me thier ain't no true fans how would you no chicostick.same goes for you jose Here, some names of posters are bastardized, presumably as an insult. theres true and fair weather fans such as yourself He calls someone a fair weather fan. Presumably, once again, to insult the poster. That is exactly the point about communicating effectively. We got two entirely different messages out of his post because he did not effectively get his point across in writing. You are reading into his posts to try to figure out his point, but we really shouldn't have to do that. If he has a point, he needs to say it clearly and without insults. Otherwise, I see no problem with someone pointing out his complete lack of writing skills. It is hardly the case of nitpicking a couple of misspellings. He uses no capitalization. He doesn't use spaces between sentences. And, if that isn't bad enough, each and every post contains an insult. I think SpoFi would be better off without such posters.

posted by bperk at 01:44 PM on February 16

Let me just say this, and then I promise to shut up: I think SpoFi would be better off without such posters. In truth, I agree. I was playing a bit of devil's advocate with KC's comments. I acknowledged in my synopsis that KC undermines his points with excessive personal abuse, and I don't like it either. The problem we both have, though, is his attitude more than his grammar, and if we're going to call him out on it, let's call him out on just that. Going after his writing skills when we dislike his intentions makes no sense, and sends a bad message to those who have flawed skills but better intentions (if, in fact, they exist -- perhaps we can agree to disagree on that point -- but you may find some of them if you look around).

posted by BullpenPro at 02:23 PM on February 16

If you find some of those posters, please let me know. I generally skip over the posts lacking the basic skills, so I could conceivably miss something brilliant.

posted by bperk at 02:33 PM on February 16

I just have to say Tony Stewart is a little baby. He says one thing is bad then goes out on the track and does it. If the man really cared do you think he'd be out there spinning people out? I don't think so.

posted by buffalo will never win at 11:52 PM on March 05

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