FanDuel - WFBC

September 20, 2005

What'd Jew say?: The Washington Nationals have suspended their chapel leader after he nodded in the affirmative when asked whether Jews were doomed. No information was given about on his feelings about the Nationals being doomed.

posted by wfrazerjr to baseball at 09:01 PM - 65 comments

Thats a shame, because whoever this chapel leader is, he is correct, that people who die as Jews are doomed to hell. That is true catholic doctrine, that not only jews but ANYONE who dies as a non-catholic is doomed to hell for all eternity because they have denied Christ, the only way TO heaven. However in this politically correct world, you don't hear that so much anymore. Especially from Rome since they apostasized from the faith during and after the Vatican Two council. Nonetheless, that is an infalliable truth. This seems to be a case of religious discrimanation and its a shame.

posted by spunAweb at 09:48 PM on September 20

Whoever this chapel leader is he is doomed to hell because he ministered to the Nationals, a team that is obviously a product of a deal with the devil.

posted by ?! at 10:06 PM on September 20

As a non catholic, no church attending indvidual, I guess I should be offended by the true catholic doctrine. But I am not offended at all. The world is full of varied religous groups with opposing views which have been resposible for many wars. I take this article with a grain of salt but I want it to be noted that I am speaking for myself, not for anyone else. It appears to me that Hurricane Katrina is becoming yesterdays news and now the media is pressed to fill its papers with trivial matters.

posted by panteeze at 10:13 PM on September 20

As a former Catholic, I find this whole thing kind of silly. There is no TRUE Catholic doctrine due to the fact that catholic doctrine is decided upon by cardinals and popes...NOT GOD. And as for the Jews being doomed line...that's even sillier.

posted by supersly26 at 10:29 PM on September 20

The doctrine attributed to the Catholic Church and posted by spunAweb is offensive and erroneous. The only purpose in spreading these kind of lies is to damage the Church. Hope the rest of you readers are smart enough to ignore this kind of nonsense. Please refer to Catholic Answers or the Catechism of the Catholic Church for the true answer.

posted by Karl at 10:32 PM on September 20

As someone who actually read a bit more of the ORIGINAL comment itself...it seems odd that somehow it was implied that this "chapel leader" was/is Catholic...and thus starting some "Catholic bashing." First of all, NO ONE can judge whether one's self or ANY one is "doomed." To state that a person, or any ethnic group or demonination is doomed is simply WRONG! Period! As to "true Catholic doctrine" I would direct you to article #674 of the "Catechism of the Catholic Church." Simply stated, it says "all Israel" will recognize Christ as the Messiah...and that His coming is "suspended at every moment of history" until this is acheived. Now to me that's more of a statement of hope...rather than doom. and thank God for Hope...for without Hope...and Faith, and most importantly Love...what do we REALLY have here on this plane of existence?

posted by Marla at 10:50 PM on September 20

oh boy...where should i start... a man is suspended from a volunteer job for a gesture. another man accuses the Nationals of bringing 'hate' into the clubhouse because of what another man believes. and spunaweb...wow buddy...you really rang up a good one there...you pretty much say that everyone who isn't catholic is doomed to hell...then say it is a shame that there may be some religous discrimination going on...i would think your beliefs would preclude your concern about discrimination. the chapel leader nodded an opinion to a question posed to him. he didn't run around the clubhouse telling everyone that jews were doomed. there isn't anything wrong with what he did. Now...there may be something wrong with the way he thinks...but that is up for debate on ReligousFilter (please tell me that doesn't exist...please). And...freedom of religion people...the chapel leader can believe what he wants...and when asked can say what he wants...that is called freedom of speech

posted by stofer71 at 11:09 PM on September 20

My bronze age creation myth coupled with my medieval superstitions are better than yours. Nyah nyah nyah. (That's meant to be ironic, by the way - one never knows how infinitely stupid religious zealots can be)

posted by owlhouse at 01:19 AM on September 21

""The Nationals did a good job about bringing hate into the locker room," said Rabbi Shmuel Herzfeld... And he's done a good job of bringing sensationalist knee-jerkism into the whole kerfuffle. What a stupid, pointless storm in a teacup.

posted by squealy at 04:47 AM on September 21

Im not catholic, Im a protestant and I would like to think Im not going to hell. If your not catholic that doesnt mean you've denied christ, what about all christian organizations. I dont mean to start a fight or offend anyone but what about all these child molestations? The catholic church should get that in order before denouncing any other religion.

posted by sc at 04:52 AM on September 21

Hey spun, Christ was Hewbrew. The Jews eyes were blinded to Christ as they were the original chosen of God.Then salvation became available to the gentials as well thru the sacrifice of The Son Of God. (See Genesis chapter 1 thru Revelation chapter 22 of the "Kings James Bible") Just thought i'd offer some scripture references since you've obviously never read a real Bible in your life. Well i'm sure you did read it. I think you have always put your own "spin" on it since the day "you" got here. the only shame is that you as a person truely dont understand how "antiChrist" your opinion really is. I Pray the true Lord shed His light upon all of us.

posted by RZA at 05:18 AM on September 21

And I pray that we can all remember this is Sportsfilter.

posted by squealy at 05:25 AM on September 21

Amen.

posted by yerfatma at 06:17 AM on September 21

This delightful discussion reminds me of an exchange on Law & Order. An angry woman told a defense lawyer, "I hope you burn in hell!" His response: "I'm Jewish. There is no hell." If I was a volunteer baseball chaplain, I think I'd steer clear of comparing and contrasting the various religious beliefs likely to be present in the locker room. The last thing I'd want to do is to tell a Thor-worshipper that suicide was not the path to Valhalla. I'd just find some interfaith prayers for left-handed pitching and the abolishment of the designated hitter and use those as a fallback.

posted by rcade at 07:09 AM on September 21

I just wanna know what do sports teams need with chaplains anyway. Are their locker rooms that roomy, that they can have representatives of every I'm-right-and-you're-doomed club parading their views and spitting dip in each other's coffee cups? You wanna pray, fine, go ahead and pray, but don't expect a stage or a spotlight or a moment of silence from everyone else who's trying to lace up their spikes. You wanna minister or proselytize, fine, go build yourself a house o' worship or rent yourself a storefront and hang out a shingle so those who are interested can march on in. But when an organization whose business is sports invites in a bunch of religious cheerleaders, they're just asking for this kind of crap.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 07:17 AM on September 21

I just wanna know what do sports teams need with chaplains anyway. Y'know, they've been around so long it never even occured to me to wonder. It's not like pro sports locker rooms are the decks of LSTs about to ride onto the beaches of Normandy.

posted by yerfatma at 07:25 AM on September 21

I don't think there is a specific harm in having a chaplain in the clubhouse. However, shit like this happens when the politics of religion take centre stage. What a crazy, stupid world sometimes. God save the agnostics - they don't do shit in Your name.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 07:52 AM on September 21

"One whole chicken, like you said."

posted by garfield at 08:00 AM on September 21

This is a sports post, right...

posted by bugsyduke at 08:03 AM on September 21

Without turning this into a religious doctrine discussion, which it probably already is. Protestants as well as Catholics believe that Jews are going to hell. Basically in most Protestant faiths it is not whether you are protestant or Catholic it is whether you have accepted Jesus Christ as your savior. Most (if not all) believe the only way to heaven is through acceptance of Jesus Christ as your personal Savior. With that belief Jews are doomed as they do not believe in Jesus as the Messiah.

posted by scottypup at 08:50 AM on September 21

Teeheehee ... hell, I just posted this 'cause I thought the headline would be fun to write. Someone get Jobu a refill!

posted by wfrazerjr at 09:23 AM on September 21

Someone get Jobu a refill! And you know what happened to him. "Is very bad drink Jobu's rum."

posted by lil_brown_bat at 09:28 AM on September 21

WOW and WOW again. Am I the only person who knows this or does anyone else know that Jesus was a JEW!! Last I knew, he resided in Heaven, NOT hell. And wasn't he the one that invited ANYONE of ANY denomination to sit at the table and break bread with him??? I'm a Protestant married to a Catholic with 3 children and I plan for all 5 of us to make it to Heaven some day. I love my husband but don't agree with the Catholic religion's teachings and that is a good example of one of them, but I don't usually go around bashing another's beliefs. This is how a lot of hatred is started.

posted by cttexas at 09:30 AM on September 21

I've never heard of this Baseball Chapel thing. I hate the idea of proselytizing in my sport. Yuck. Bad mix. I grew up Catholic, and my mother always told me that people picked on Jews because they were jealous of them, as they were the chosen people. I mentioned this to my Jewish friend and her response was this: "Sometimes we wish He'd chosen someone else." Though I've blocked out most of the Catholic doctrine I learned as a kid, I'm pretty sure we didn't spend much time talking about which non-Catholics were going to hell. We were more concerned about our own stays in purgatory and such.

posted by pooch at 09:31 AM on September 21

Am I the only person who knows this or does anyone else know that Jesus was a JEW!! Last I knew, he resided in Heaven, NOT hell. And wasn't he the one that invited ANYONE of ANY denomination to sit at the table and break bread with him??? Well, ignoring the sloppy reasoning, I'd simply point out we're discussing organized religion, not people doing good works. Jesus' attitude, while wonderful, isn't going to fill a collection plate. You need to divide the sheep and goats and then milk the sheep for all they're worth. Which is why Jesus took up carpentry.

posted by yerfatma at 09:43 AM on September 21

HA-HA!! Jews are doomed to hell? That is the most outrageous bullsh*t I have ever heard. Seriously Spun, stick with sports and leave your dumb*ss religious theories to yourself.

posted by tina at 10:38 AM on September 21

The only time I'd want a chaplain in the locker room would be if he could pinch-hit, pinch run or play some good defense. Save the sermons for sunday church for those who want to attend.

posted by Richie Bee at 10:45 AM on September 21

Save the sermons for sunday church for those who want to attend. uh, that's exactly what they do. team chaplains are there to lead prayers and such (and only for those who want to participate.) the group prayers are held in private and no one on the team is forced to participate. they are not there proselytize, although i wouldn't be surprised if some do. but i would think you'd hear more stories of proselytizing by players than the team chaplain (yes chad curtis, i'm talking about you.) so, as long as they stick to leading prayers and things like that i don't have a problem with it. oddly enough, this article about the Nationals pre-game prayers came out on Sunday. Moeller is an FBI agent during the week.

posted by goddam at 10:51 AM on September 21

Thanks for the Link GD! It puts more light on the entire matter. I would caution people who are making assumptions one way or another. I would advise you to read up on the issue(Bible or other writings on the subject. or speak to your favorite clergy type person. You will find that a person (no matter who they are) will be condemmed to hell by their own choice nobody else's. Whole groups, for example Jews are not doomed to hell. This discussion is going in the direction I thought it would when I the link last night. Again, thanks for the Link GD. To you others, stop making assumptions based on limited knowledge.

posted by daddisamm at 11:21 AM on September 21

any truth to the comment that barry bonds waited to start playing again till no more testing at the end of this season? he looks like he's still on steriods.

posted by honest at 11:50 AM on September 21

Obligatory. Do you think Satan gives Gandhi an occasional break to watch the cricket matches?

posted by danostuporstar at 12:24 PM on September 21

we're all going to hell!!! maybe the nationals pr team should hook up with the 49ers pr team. i bet they could come up with a great educational tape. or better yet, who cares? i go to the ballpark to watch a game(drink beer) and not to be preached to. as long as the chaplin doesn't start handing out bibles in the stands i don't care.

posted by chefwest at 12:47 PM on September 21

any truth to the comment that barry bonds waited to start playing again till no more testing at the end of this season? he looks like he's still on steriods. Wrong discussion, but I should point out that he was tested during the season, even while he was on the disabled list.

posted by grum@work at 01:28 PM on September 21

God help us.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 02:20 PM on September 21

daddisamm: I would caution people who are making assumptions one way or another. Who's assuming? This is from goddam's article: "Chapel in thirty minutes," Jon Moeller said, working his way -- locker to locker, broad back to back -- around the room, distributing a leaflet: "What God Has Done For You." Moeller, 36, is the chapel leader for the Nationals baseball team. On Sundays, before they play, they pray. ...and I must say, that image is even creepier than what I'd imagined. Talk about having Jee-zus stuffed in your face, can't the guy just post ONE flyer at the start of the season and be done with it? And when exactly do the rabbis and the imams and the shamans do their "broad back to back" rounds? Creepy.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 02:38 PM on September 21

How did this get out? Usually chapel is off limits to the media. I think they made a big deal about nothing.(not that i'm suggesting that the chaplian was right, i really have no opinion on that matter) it's just someone looking for a story at the end of a season.

posted by erkno11 at 02:59 PM on September 21

The Nats need as much God as they can get- I say we get the Pope to go to next years season opener and give out free holy water. Maybe then their hopes wont be washed away totaly.

posted by redsoxrgay at 04:46 PM on September 21

Why does a sports team need a chapel/chaplin? Why is it that no sports team has ever died in a plane crash? -George Costanza

posted by RZA at 06:15 PM on September 21

Why is it that no sports team has ever died in a plane crash Evansville University basketball team, 1977, 29 players, staff and fans Hendrick Motorsports NASCAR team, 2004, 10 people associated with the team, including family, team crew, and pilots Italian A.C. Torino football squad, 1949, almost the entire team (see Superga air disaster) Manchester United football club, 23 players, staff and associates, 1958 (see Munich air disaster) Marshall University football team, 1970, 35 players Oklahoma State University, 2001, ten people associated with men's basketball team (including two players) Puerto Rico national women's volleyball team, 1970, most members of the team (on the same flight as Carlos Cruz) Surinam professional football team, fourteen players of an ad hoc, at Zanderij airport, Paramaribo Uruguay's Stella Maris rugby team, 1972, 29 of 45 team members (see Andes flight disaster) US Olympic boxing team, 1980, all team members except for Bobby Czyz, Marvis Frazier and Lee Roy Murphy US figure skating entire team, 1961, on Sabena Flight 548 Wichita State University, 1970, 31 players, coaches and supporters, at Colorado Zambia national football team members, 1993

posted by owlhouse at 08:02 PM on September 21

Yikes.

posted by rcade at 08:36 PM on September 21

Protestant, Catholic, Jew, whatever. Each person is going to be judged on his/her beliefs and what is truly within his/her heart. Yes, Jesus was born a Jew. And his Disciple Peter became the first Pontif of what is now the Roman Catholic Church. To me, (Note this is MY OPINION and not what I think YOU should believe), any RELIGION is fanatacism. Religions all have doctrines and interpretations handed down by a select group of men who tell you what's right and wrong. FAITH, on the other hand, compels one to read the Bible, believe what is says without misconstruing the meaning to suit one's own needs and accepting Christ as the Son of the Living God. I believe one is not always right in faithfully being religious. I feel one should be religiously FAITHFUL. Sometimes, I wonder just exactly what the Bible truly said, before being interpreted (or re-written) By King James for the Church of England. Is Hell really a fiery pit, or was the Church trying to scare the Hell out of people? Does Hell even exist? Is Hell, not a place of constant torment, or is it a total and complete separation from God? Or, is it when someone's spirit simply ceases to exist? My point here is, none of us will really know the truth until we're dead. So, in the meantime, let's all just believe what we feel is right in our own hearts and minds, stop trying to force one's views on their fellow man, and just simply do the right thing.

posted by slew40484 at 08:33 AM on September 22

daddisamm: I would caution people who are making assumptions one way or another. Who's assuming? This is from goddam's article: ...and I must say, that image is even creepier than what I'd imagined. Talk about having Jee-zus stuffed in your face, can't the guy just post ONE flyer at the start of the season and be done with it? And when exactly do the rabbis and the imams and the shamans do their "broad back to back" rounds? Creepy. posted by lil_brown_bat at 2:38 PM CST on September 21 Yes, LBB i can see where you might find that a little creepy. I wouldnt call that creepy myself, but thats where you and I would disagree. However, When I was talking about assumptions, I was specifically talking about the "jewish issue" that was brought up in the article.

posted by daddisamm at 08:42 AM on September 22

Protestant, Catholic, Jew, whatever. Each person is going to be judged on his/her beliefs and what is truly within his/her heart. Yes, Jesus was born a Jew. And his Disciple Peter became the first Pontiff of what is now the Roman Catholic Church. To me, (Note this is MY OPINION and not what I think YOU should believe), any RELIGION is fanaticism. Religions all have doctrines and interpretations handed down by a select group of men who tell you what's right and wrong. FAITH, on the other hand, compels one to read the Bible, believe what is says without misconstruing the meaning to suit one's own needs and accepting Christ as the Son of the Living God. I believe one is not always right in faithfully being religious. I feel one should be religiously FAITHFUL. Sometimes, I wonder just exactly what the Bible truly said, before being interpreted (or re-written) By King James for the Church of England. Is Hell really a fiery pit, or was the Church trying to scare the Hell out of people? Does Hell even exist? Is Hell, not a place of constant torment, or is it a total and complete separation from God? Or, is it when someone's spirit simply ceases to exist? My point here is, none of us will really know the truth until we're dead. So, in the meantime, let's all just believe what we feel is right in our own hearts and minds, stop trying to force one's views on their fellow man, and just simply do the right thing.

posted by slew40484 at 08:47 AM on September 22

Sorry, guys...didn't mean to post twice. My bad.

posted by slew40484 at 08:48 AM on September 22

Yes, LBB i can see where you might find that a little creepy. I wouldnt call that creepy myself, but thats where you and I would disagree. Would you call it creepy if some self-appointed "chaplain" -- someone who is unknown to her and does not necessarily represent her beliefs -- came into your unconscious mother's hospital roomand decided to "minister" to her?

posted by lil_brown_bat at 10:12 AM on September 22

Would you call it creepy if some self-appointed "chaplain" -- someone who is unknown to her and does not necessarily represent her beliefs -- came into your unconscious mother's hospital roomand decided to "minister" to her? I would call it someone reaching out to be helpful and caring. It would be really hard for the "chaplain" to minister to someone who is unconconcious. I have been in situations where a gravely ill parent (or myself) was is the hospital and close to death. Nobody is allowed in the room that aint supposed to there, The Local chaplain only comes if you request it. I think you are trying to make more out of this situation than it warrants. Sounds like this "chaplain" is invited into the locker room. I was more concerned about the Jewish implications in this story, than somebody handing out a Christain pamphlet.

posted by daddisamm at 10:34 AM on September 22

slew, you've got a great perspective on the very important distinction between personal faith and social religion. The thing is, in practice the two often become inseparable in the practioner's mind, and the commingled beliefs often entail the axiom: convert or destroy, to over-simplify. Organized religion remains the prime motivator, and what are we humans really good at? That's right. We are good at selflessness, compassion, and letting others be different. The usual.

posted by garfield at 10:49 AM on September 22

Maybe in an effort to be more inclusive, the Nationals should start selling a beer called "He-Brew." I think that's a beer that both chrisitianists and Jews could agree on. Christianists would see the capital-H "He" and think of their god and Jews would see "Hebrew."

posted by hellx at 10:54 AM on September 22

A beer? I am not sure where you are going with your reasoning Hellx

posted by daddisamm at 11:03 AM on September 22

There actually is a beer called HeBrew (the chosen beer). I've had it, and it's pretty good. Really.

posted by ajaffe at 01:35 PM on September 22

http://www.shmaltz.com/index1.html

posted by ajaffe at 02:07 PM on September 22

I would call it someone reaching out to be helpful and caring. It would be really hard for the "chaplain" to minister to someone who is unconconcious. I have been in situations where a gravely ill parent (or myself) was is the hospital and close to death. Nobody is allowed in the room that aint supposed to there, The Local chaplain only comes if you request it. I've been in such situations too, and it's not like they've got an armed guard on the door. Intrusive people try to go where they want. I agree that it's st00pid for any "chaplain" to "minister" to an unconscious person, but that doesn't stop them from trying -- sprinkling holy water, waving around magical medals, reciting holy words, or some other kind of juju. These people are not constrained by a sense of the appropriate, and your experiences to the contrary, they most certainly do go where they're not invited, or only marginally so. Which brings me to... I think you are trying to make more out of this situation than it warrants. Sounds like this "chaplain" is invited into the locker room. Invited by whom? A unanimous and anonymous vote of the assembled players? Should one player have the right to invite a "chaplain" into the locker room to shove tracts in everyone's face, regardless of their religious affiliation? If so, how would you feel if a Muslim chaplain did the same thing to each and every player?

posted by lil_brown_bat at 02:54 PM on September 22

Wow, I dont know what to say LBB . You really sem to be upset by this subject. From the stuff I read this chaplain and others are in baseball locker rooms all over the country. Somebody let them in there. I have never experienced anything like people forcing their way into hospital rooms and sprikling holy water on people or other "ju ju". I guess we live in two sperate worlds. you seem to have a hatred for anything religious and I am sorry that you feel that way. Like I said before LBB, I really dont know how to repond to you on this topic.

posted by daddisamm at 04:16 PM on September 22

A hebrew beer?--I give up

posted by daddisamm at 04:17 PM on September 22

People arguing about religion reminds me of two children in the playground fighting over who has the best imaginary friend. Grow up everybody.

posted by owlhouse at 05:47 PM on September 22

I don't see lbb hating God or religion nearly as much as the hypocrisy and wrongheadedness it spawns in so many of its followers. If that's the case, then I'd like to thank God for giving me the insight and wisdom to plumb this issue. If not, well, forget it.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 06:25 PM on September 22

Zambia national football team members, 1993? I meant NFL,NBA,MLB,NHL. -George Costanza

posted by RZA at 07:26 PM on September 22

Wow, I dont know what to say LBB . You really sem to be upset by this subject. From the stuff I read this chaplain and others are in baseball locker rooms all over the country. Somebody let them in there. I have never experienced anything like people forcing their way into hospital rooms and sprikling holy water on people or other "ju ju". I guess we live in two sperate worlds. you seem to have a hatred for anything religious and I am sorry that you feel that way. Like I said before LBB, I really dont know how to repond to you on this topic. You could start by not making assumptions, like "hatred for anything religious". While you have volunteered your spiritual beliefs here for the general viewing audience, I have not, and neither you nor anyone else here knows what I believe or practice. You could also admit that your experience and your views towards "anything religious" (which to you means Christian) don't exactly give you an objective viewpoint on the question of whether "ministering" crosses the pushiness line. You claim to have never experienced a Christian chaplain "ministering to" those who'd rather not be ministered to, or who may not be compos enough to say "no thank you"; well, maybe you haven't, and maybe you just have a casual and forgiving attitude when it comes to such transgressions. I've never experienced a category 5 hurricane, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. I have, on the other hand, witnessed just such transgressions as I described. On one occasion the self-proclaimed "chaplain" was so persistent that I thought it would be necessary to call security to keep him from making juju over my mother (who, had she not been in a coma, would have dope-slapped the id'yit for his presumption). In the case of this locker room, I'd say most likely this "chaplain" was invited, by somebody. But you didn't answer my earlier question, so I'll ask it again: was he invited by everybody, every member of the team? If so, were they asked in a completely non-pressuring and non-coercive manner -- or were they put on the spot? I don't know and you don't either, but you're assuming that nobody has a problem with the presence or actions of this "chaplain". I say that's a very, very big assumption. Pushy people, and proselytizers are nothing if not pushy, specialize in making their requests in ways that are difficult to refuse.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 09:44 PM on September 22

I am sorry I thought I signed on to Sports Filter - guess I hit the wrong favorite button.

posted by skydivemom at 11:18 PM on September 22

We arent really told who exactly invited him in the article. Since the team banned him from the locker room, One could asusme he was invited by Team management, major league baseball,player association-I dont know. I would nee more info to make a better judgement. My biggest concern here was the concept of Jews being "doomed";which I dont believe that they are. (As I had stated before.) Second of all LBB, I am not assuming what you believe or practice-nor do a I pretend to know. All I go by is your words and you have to admit your words dont say many positive things about "christains". Thats where I get I little confused by your comments. I know that you are a very sincere person yet there is a lot of anger in some of your comments. I am trying to meet you half way LBB, but its hard cause I honestly havent seen some of the things you have-pushy chaplans in a hospital setting etc. Yes I have stated tht I am a christain on this board, not really the smartest thing I have done. Hopefully by now people realize that I am sincere in what I believe (and you dont know the entire extent of my beliefs either) and I am not really trying to offend or put down anybody.

posted by daddisamm at 02:05 AM on September 23

All I go by is your words and you have to admit your words dont say many positive things about "christains". I've been wanting to ask this for a long time. Why do you consistently misspell the word "Christian"? It's weird, coming from a Christian. I think everyone who's read your comments understands that you're sincere, and for what it's worth, I believe you're also sincerely well-intentioned. But good intentions, yours or those of other Christians, aren't some kind of magic vaccine against ever doing anything wrong or hurtful. Religious proselytizing is based on the premise that other people are wrong and that it's your duty to straighten 'em out. Even those who "witness" and "minister" out of a sincere wish to improve their targets' lives and souls are guilty of not respecting others' beliefs and realities, and not honoring their chosen path. In my world view, this equates to treating others with contempt and disrespect. Christianity is out there, it's ubiquitous in our culture, and those who want it have no barriers to seeking it out. That's why I find it creepy that some Christians cannot refrain from pushing it in every school, workplace, hospital or locker room (and doubly creepy that "prayer" always seems to mean "Christian prayer"...you've got a virtual hegemony in this country, and that should be enough).

posted by lil_brown_bat at 06:59 AM on September 23

I think everyone who's read your comments understands that you're sincere, and for what it's worth, I believe you're also sincerely well-intentioned. But good intentions, yours or those of other Christians, aren't some kind of magic vaccine against ever doing anything wrong or hurtful. Religious proselytizing is based on the premise that other people are wrong and that it's your duty to straighten 'em out. Even those who "witness" and "minister" out of a sincere wish to improve their targets' lives and souls are guilty of not respecting others' beliefs and realities, and not honoring their chosen path. In my world view, this equates to treating others with contempt and disrespect You do a good job relaying your opinion on this subject. I hear this alot from alot of people. You have every right to feel tht way. Free choice is certainly a big part of the plan. Some Christians are a bit over-zealous. However thats something that nobody human can judge. Dont judge everybody because a few of them feel "creepy" You talk about "dignity and respect", doesnt that work for all people? If not, how does ones decide as to who gets respected and who doesnt? Thats what I dont understand. I a sorry that I misspelled christian. I dont do as good of job as you do in expressing myself. Thanks for a lively discussion.

posted by daddisamm at 08:49 AM on September 23

If not, how does ones decide as to who gets respected and who doesnt? "Your rights end where my nose begins." IOW, when someone gets in my face with their views -- literally, or in some targeted way like sending me email, sending me snail mail, or standing outside my house with a bullhorn -- they lose all right to have their views "respected". At that point they're just unwanted noise, and I've got the right to tell 'em to shut it or take it elsewhere.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 02:58 PM on September 23

Baseball. *waves at skydivemom*

posted by squealy at 03:53 PM on September 23

When I read this">article I was reminded of the true nature of this discussion. Wiesenthal has long been a hero of mind. Fighting for justice where there wasnt any. No matter your backround, you can do nothing but admire this man's faith that justice and closure can be bought. He lost everything in the War, and yet he kept going. Its a wonderful story. If you have never hear of Wiesenthal, there are many books out there about him....HIs own personal story is undescribable.

posted by daddisamm at 10:30 AM on September 25

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