FanDuel - WFBC

May 03, 2005

The pitcher has two mommies: Cincinnati Reds relief pitcher Joe Valentine is the son of two gay women, and he's not afraid to talk about a subject that's taboo in the clubhouse. "It's not a big deal to me," Valentine says. "Why should it be? ... I don't see myself as an activist for gay rights, although I will speak up if I need to. I'm a baseball player who was raised by two wonderful, loving mothers. How can anyone criticize that?

posted by the red terror to baseball at 04:51 PM - 48 comments

How can anyone criticize that? Is he sure he grew up in America?

posted by gspm at 05:22 PM on May 03

Good for Joe.Sadly most of America is closed minded and unable to figure life out. FUCK W. BUSH and his crook filled government.

posted by HOE.O.K. at 05:45 PM on May 03

I should be less glib. that was a good article. thanks for posting it.

posted by gspm at 06:15 PM on May 03

Nice article. The guy will probably get some shit...maybe a lot of shit. But I have a feeling that, as happened with Jackie Robinson, he and his moms may acquire defenders from some unexpected quarters.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 07:08 PM on May 03

Good on him. I mean who cares does being from a 'gay' household make you weaker NO, it makes you just the same as everyone else a HUMAN. I'm not a fighter for gay rights, I just think this guy is like every other player in baseball, he's a baseballer.

posted by bballcoachreid at 09:01 PM on May 03

Who cares? I just want to know can he play?

posted by govtdrone at 09:23 PM on May 03

Very interesting article. Thanks for posting it.

posted by daddisamm at 11:27 PM on May 03

From what I read elsewhere, this guy is supposed to be good.

posted by daddisamm at 11:43 PM on May 03

I think if this were posted on Metafilter or something, we'd have all sorts of people jumping out here and saying "Good for him, you go, pitcher guy!" Here, we get a comment that says, " Who cares? I just want to know can he play?" Exactly, Gov. Exactly.

posted by Samsonov14 at 02:07 AM on May 04

Who cares? I do. Stories like this reinforce the mundane normalcy of homosexual relationships, which is a message that sports needs today as badly as it once needed Jackie Robinson. Pro team sports are one of the last places in the U.S. where people are afraid to come out of the closet. We should be at the who-the-hell-cares stage by now, but instead, there are far more players comfortable making bigoted remarks than admitting that they play for the other team.

posted by rcade at 07:21 AM on May 04

The Cardinals roughed him up for 2 runs in 1 IP last night, bringing his season ERA to 9.53.

posted by mbd1 at 07:29 AM on May 04

Amen, rcade.

posted by scully at 07:48 AM on May 04

I dont consider homosexual relationships as being normal. However I dont consider myself a Homo-phobe either. I really dont care where this guy comes from. If he can pitch thats ok with me. I can live with what his parents are, but I cant condone it. Thats the best I can do. I am very cautious about even bringing this up, as some of you will resort to name calling and such..

posted by daddisamm at 07:49 AM on May 04

Why do you need to condone it at all? When I was a kid, I was horrified to learn in junior high school what my parents did to produce me. It still gives me the shivers. Should they hide their heterosexuality because my siblings and I find their behavior revolting?

posted by rcade at 08:08 AM on May 04

I side with the late Canadian PM Pierre Trudeau, who three decades ago said the state had no business in the bedrooms of the nation. Sadly, there are many so-called "freedom luvin' conservatives" in the nation where Mr. Valentine plys his trade who believe differently. "We have to protect the little children from these perverts and sodomites." It can't have escaped Valentine that the party forever trying to export freedoms and liberties to other parts of the world, is the same bunch of wingnut ideologues that are seeking to crush it at home. 'Cos, y'know, such behavior violates the Holy Bible, and since that day in September -- solemn quiet, please -- everything changed. Including the separation of church and state. Pat Robertson and Jimmy Swaggart swore the behavior of people like Valentine's parents is why God didn't prevent terrorists attacking America. "Repent, America, repent!!" The party that despises homosexuals currently holds the power of the White House, Congress, Senate and Judiciary -- and old biases and habits in alpha-male locker-rooms die hard. Valentine sounds like a good guy, I simply hope teammates and fans don't try to ruin him. (Full disclosure: I am a straight guy who has difficulty averting his eyes from females of all shapes and sizes. But I have several friends who are gay, I am proud to call them my friends, and I've never once felt threatened by their choices and lifestyles.)

posted by the red terror at 08:23 AM on May 04

Sheesh. I can't fathom two mothers. I'm barely surviving one.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 08:34 AM on May 04

Why do you need to condone it at all? When I was a kid, I was horrified to learn in junior high school what my parents did to produce me. It still gives me the shivers. Should they hide their heterosexuality because my siblings and I find their behavior revolting? Good Example Rcade. I know my kids feel the same way about my wife and I....To condone something, for me, is to accept and promote it. I cant dot that with Homesexuallity. I cant don that with alot of thing. That said, I still need to life those things I cannot condone. I know that their are workable family groups involving two mommies or daddies. Heck I have one in my immediate family. I had a couson who died of Aids.. I have known and befreinded gays and lesbians.. I still cant 'condone their life style. My attitude has always been "hate the sin, but love the sinner".

posted by daddisamm at 08:44 AM on May 04

9.53 ERA, 0-1 record, 0 Saves, 6 SO...THAT'S what's important as far as I'm concerned...The rest is Joe's business.

posted by coachrh at 11:52 AM on May 04

To condone something, for me, is to accept and promote it. I cant dot that with Homesexuallity. To condone something, for the dictionary, is to overlook it. So why can't you just say "what his family does is absolutely none of my business"? Your whole "Some of my best friends are gay, but I am forced to condemn them because God created the universe and yet he's petty enough to care how people use their privates" position rings pretty hollow.

posted by Mayor Curley at 02:07 PM on May 04

Mayor-God did create the universe and he does care where you put your privates. However what you do with your privates is a matter for you and God to discuss.. I try to look after my own realtionship with God. If you read my posts-you would that this guys family life shouldnt be the issue- Its how he plays ball is what counts. I have been trying to avoid a discussion on Gay rights as this is supposed to be about sports

posted by daddisamm at 05:14 PM on May 04

God did create the universe and he does care where you put your privates. He told you that, did he? Or are you maybe telling him? I have been trying to avoid a discussion on Gay rights as this is supposed to be about sports Hitting the "post" button falls firmly outside the definition of "trying to avoid a discussion, daddisamm. As for your condoning or lack thereof, that strikes me as rather like condoning somebody's choice of hat or dress or hairstyle: nobody needs your permission, nobody asked for your approval, and therefore, it's a gauche sort of non sequitur (at the very least) to be volunteering your opinion on whether you're okay with other people's choices about things that are none of your business. The next time you're feeling like telling people about your condoning or not of their "homosexual lifestyle", think about how you'd look telling someone, "You know, your hat really makes you look stupid." The recipient of your comment will have much the same opinion of you in either case.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 07:44 PM on May 04

Whatever--you say. I really wasnt trying to start anything. It sure is funny how how I my opinion can be concidered "stupid". cause I dont agree with others here. Well I am sorry if I offended anybody, i was only expressing my oppinion.. I am the same page as everybody else who say that it shouldnt matter what his parents are-only how good of ballplayer is he. However, I say that I dont agree with the gay lifestyle or I express my some of my religious beliefs--Now MY opinion is called "stupid" You guys have been saying I should mind my own business! Who cares whats other do in the privacy of their homes? Then why are you so concerned with how I feel about a certain lifestyle? You seem to think my opinions and beliefs are stupid but hey, they are result of my lifestyle. You can trash mine but I cant say anything about someone elses! That wonderful I read the entire atricle and thought it was an interesting story. I was trying to think how my niece and he partner would raise their newborn son is this nasty world. After reading it I had some hope. This guy is just a normal guy. He'll make it in MLB because of his stats and not where he comes from. Aint it funny, this last paragraph sounds "normal" untill I mention that I am a christain, or a conservative, anti gay, or pro life. This old world is tough on everybody. I dont agree with my niece's lifestyle, but I still love her, her partner and my great nephew. Me and my "stupid" ideas are going to bed.

posted by daddisamm at 12:24 AM on May 05

It isn't that you aren't allowed to have your view, daddisamm. It is that there are a lot of people who share your view and use it to try and enact legislation that denies equal rights. There are a lot of people who share your view that actively try and suppress homosexuals. If you have ever chosen one candidate over another because you think that candidate also doesn't condone homosexuals, you've actively taken part in denying them rights. I condone your right to be homophobic. I don't believe anyone should try and keep you from being homphobic. It is your right as an American to be as homphobic as you want to be. It sounds like you are one of the good homophobes. You know, the one who hates teh gay but doesn't take active steps to try and deny them their rights. In that case, good for you.

posted by Joey Michaels at 04:07 AM on May 05

Then why are you so concerned with how I feel about a certain lifestyle? Because a lot of people who share your opinion are actively trying to keep gays from being full citizens of this society. If I were to argue that evangelical Christians should not be allowed to teach our kids in schools, I imagine you'd be pretty concerned with how I felt about that lifestyle.

posted by rcade at 05:05 AM on May 05

Now MY opinion is called "stupid" No, it isn't called "stupid". No one called it any such thing. But, I'm sorry to tell you, your public expression of your opinion of a private matter that does not concern you is gauche and tasteless. You're upset at hearing that, and in that, you're no different from a young man who grew to adulthood never taking off his baseball cap, without anyone ever bothering to tell him that a gentleman never wears a hat indoors. He thinks it's okay because he sees his friends doing the same, and does not understand that they're all being tasteless together. I'm sorry that no one ever took the time before to tell you that your "I don't condone" statement is rude behavior, and I understand that you feel hurt, but if you take it to heart perhaps it will spare you from future embarrassment.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 05:56 AM on May 05

I am not embaraced on how I feel. I obvously hit a few nerves of people who dont fully understand where I am coming from. I Understand how you feel as I used to feel the same way. If I was embarassed by my comments I wouldnt be posting here. If I were to argue that evangelical Christians should not be allowed to teach our kids in schools, I imagine you'd be pretty concerned with how I felt about that lifestyle. Rcade, if you were to argue about Christains teaching in public school, I am sorry, but I would agree that some Christains shouldnt teach public school. You would be surprized by the number of "evngelical" christains who do teach school and are very good teachers. They go unnoticed and the are making a diiffeance. Bottom line its all about lifestyles. We get along with people better if we try to understand stuff that we dont agree with. I dont comment about alot of things on this forum because it would be a never ending battle. I would really look like a kook! I am here to discuss sports and when sports clash with moral issues, I try to take the high road. I do this cause my opinion will rattle many cages. That is not my wish.. My advice to you guys would be, not to lump Christains all in one basket. Most of us are not punch lines to crude jokes........ If you want to Email me Directly about this, fine. I am done talking here. Again I am glad that this man is comfortable with his life-I wish him well. Again, I am sorry if I hurt any feelings.

posted by daddisamm at 07:28 AM on May 05

But, I'm sorry to tell you, your public expression of your opinion of a private matter that does not concern you is gauche and tasteless. I'd say the same thing goes for you, lbb. I'm not Christian, nor do I care about the gay lifestyle. What I do care about is someone's right to say what they believe, whether I agree with it or not. It sounds to me like you are just as guilty of stereotyping and discrimination as you think Daddisamm is, and comparing someone's religious beliefs to wearing a hat indoors IS gauche and tasteless. As for a private matter, privacy ended when Valentine decided to discuss it with a media outlet. It now becomes a public discussion.

posted by wfrazerjr at 07:45 AM on May 05

I'd say the same thing goes for you, lbb. I'm not Christian, nor do I care about the gay lifestyle. What I do care about is someone's right to say what they believe, whether I agree with it or not. It sounds to me like you are just as guilty of stereotyping and discrimination as you think Daddisamm is, and comparing someone's religious beliefs to wearing a hat indoors IS gauche and tasteless. wfrazerjr, who was it that made statements about condoning this or that? Not me. I didn't make any statements about Christians, or even about homophobes. I didn't interfere with daddisamm's right to express himself, either. It isn't an abridgement of anyone's rights of expression to comment that said expression is rude. I commented that certain statements were in poor taste: specifically, when daddisamm made statements such as the following: I dont consider homosexual relationships as being normal. I can live with what his parents are, but I cant condone it. God did create the universe and he does care where you put your privates. Those statements go far beyond Valentine's family -- not, mind you, that I believe Valentine invited public criticism of his family, either. I don't believe a simple statement about one's family is an invitation for others to comment about the okay-ness of said family, any more than I believe that walking down the street with a hat covered with pink and green flowers is an invitation for others to comment about the aesthetic value of said hat. But even if you want to argue that people feel entitled to make impertinent comments about public figures, and that that's okay, this went beyond mere impertinent commentary about Valentine's family. Try out the phrases: I don't consider being Jewish as being normal. I can live with his parents being a mixed-race couple, but I can't condone it. God did create the universe and he does care whether you call him God (his real name) or Allah. ...and see if they evoke a different reaction. You'd think someone gauche if they said to a Jewish person, "I don't condone your religion, but really, you're an okay baseball player even so," would you not?

posted by lil_brown_bat at 08:15 AM on May 05

LIl_Brown_bat--Insterting "jewish" into my statements are not are reflection of my befiefs. You are equating homosexuality to a religion.......which it isnt......equating this topic to racism is not realistic either. You have no Idea what my opinion is about the Jewish faith or mix mearriages are.... Your statement of what God is doesnt even make any sence........

posted by daddisamm at 09:59 AM on May 05

in an attempt to get back on topic, would players and coaches still have this "whatever. it doesn't bother me" attitude if he was raised by two men instead of two women?

posted by goddam at 10:40 AM on May 05

The point is, lbb, that you have no more right to be the arbiter of good taste and fair reactions than daddisamm, and let's not split hairs -- you were basically calling him ignorant. I think just about everyone else in here said they didn't agree with his opinion. It was pretty much only you who choose to scold him like a child. Do I like his opinion on homosexuality? No, I don't. Do I like your self-righteousness? Nope, don't like that either. ...you're no different from a young man who grew to adulthood never taking off his baseball cap I'm sorry that no one ever took the time before to tell you that your "I don't condone" statement is rude behavior, and I understand that you feel hurt, but if you take it to heart perhaps it will spare you from future embarrassment. Wow, patronizing much?

posted by wfrazerjr at 10:45 AM on May 05

in an attempt to get back on topic, would players and coaches still have this "whatever. it doesn't bother me" attitude if he was raised by two men instead of two women? Interesting point, and I think the answer is no. I hate to say this, but I see baseball players whispering to themselves about getting with both Valentine's mommies and joking about it. That somehow might make them more accepting of this, albeit for all the wrong reasons. Two guys, I think, would make players cringe and even possible automatically assume Valentine was gay through their own ignorance.

posted by wfrazerjr at 10:48 AM on May 05

I learned: (1) there is an MLB pitcher that was raised by lesbians (2) God cares about my privates (3) gentlemen don't where their hats indoors, and (4) I could be offending people by wearing my hat in the Metrodome...but probably not.

posted by chris2sy at 10:53 AM on May 05

Because knowledge is power!

posted by wfrazerjr at 10:59 AM on May 05

wfrazerj, lemme just say to begin that I appreciate your effort to be civil. It's not going unnoticed. The point is, lbb, that you have no more right to be the arbiter of good taste and fair reactions than daddisamm, and let's not split hairs -- you were basically calling him ignorant. I think just about everyone else in here said they didn't agree with his opinion. It was pretty much only you who choose to scold him like a child. Unfortunately, daddisamm wasn't setting himself up as the arbiter of good taste and fair reactions; he was setting himself up as the arbiter of who is normal and what God wants us to do with our privates. I call that rude. You don't like me calling that rude? Well, no one ever declared Judith Martin "the arbiter of good taste and fair reactions", either; but it honestly, truly baffles me how you can look at the following exchange: Person A: People in category B aren't normal. God doesn't like people in category B doing what makes them part of category B. Person in category B: That's a tacky and gauche statement, Person A. ...and see those as equally offending against one another. I'm not being sarcastic; I really don't get it. As far as being patronizing, I think my analogy is a pretty good one. Many people in the US feel perfectly at ease saying tihngs about gays that would be almost universally considered rude and insulting if they were directed at any other group. They do this, with no embarrassment whatsoever, because they do not know any better. Just so the young man who thinks nothing is amiss when he wears a cap indoors, because he has never been told otherwise. So you tell me: when someone offends out of ignorance, what's the right thing to do? Shut up and swallow it? Let him continue in ignorance? Or say something? I know daddisamm's feelings were hurt; I'm sure Person A in my example above would have had his/her feelings hurt too. But nobody started this thread by firing a shot across the bows of gay-critical Christians; the opening salvo went the other way, and what came back was really nothing more than, "Shooting guns is not nice and neighborly behavior." I guess we're supposed to just soak up the lead in silence.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 11:33 AM on May 05

in an attempt to get back on topic, would players and coaches still have this "whatever. it doesn't bother me" attitude if he was raised by two men instead of two women? posted by goddam at 10:40 AM CST on May 5 GD For me, it makes no difference in the "couple" was male or female. This issue isnt the family unit, its the ballplayer. I could see where some might make more of a deal about two men raising a child, than two woman. To me, it wouldnt effect the outcome of the story. llb- you can stop your "cute" examples---You are not going to change my mind or embarrass me. I have gotten your message. I am proud to be a Christain and I am proud of my beliefs. I respect your views even if you dont repsect me or mine. Why are you threatened by my feelings towards gays and lesbians? I am not attacking or smearing anybody. I was giving just a humble opinion..

posted by daddisamm at 12:14 PM on May 05

I may have been the first one to describe the relationship of this guy's parents as normal. That's where I wish sports was on this subject. Valentine's candor, which I hope will not affect his career, ought to move things along.

posted by rcade at 12:22 PM on May 05

daddisamm - how can you honestly believe that typing something about a controversial topic might not get a response like you got? llb, in my opinion, kept a cool head and tried best to respond in his/her own words. I do not see how lbb disrepects your views, unless you think disagreement is disrecpectful. Beyond that, I am happy with the civilness of this thread.

posted by jasonspaceman at 01:20 PM on May 05

First, I would like to thank red terror for posting this story. Valentine sounds like a grounded young man with a promising future and his moms should be given a lot of credit for that. My opinions fall on the side of wfrazerjr's...live and let live. From a religious perspective, I was raised Church of Christ and Baptist but I'm also open-minded and hopefully wise enough not to believe everything I hear or read, even from the pulpit. The God (or Goddess...who knows for certain???) I believe in treats and loves everyone the same; we are all His or Her children. That being said, the older I get, the more I believe all organized religion is a load of crap. The only decent lesson I ever learned from the church is the Golden Rule. A person's sexuality to me is a non-issue. We all judge people, whether we want to admit it or not, but my preference is to choose who I associate with based on how they treat all living beings, not who they sleep with.

posted by Texan_lost_in_NY at 02:08 PM on May 05

You Know, I responded to llb because of the repeated "examples" that were given. Spaceman, you to are acting the same way. You are pondering whether or not I know if my posts will get a certain reation!!!!. I am sorry to disappointent you but I know exactly what I am doing. The reactions here have been quite predictable considering the audience. I have had the same feelings myself when I was younger. I appreciate the creativity of the responses...

posted by daddisamm at 04:43 PM on May 05

Once you personally know someone that is gay, it's a lot harder to continue being a bigot. Religion will make it easier, though, helping you see a sinner instead of a person. Critical and independent thinking like Texan_lost_in_NY demonstrates is rarely found inside a fundamentalist church. There's a reason they're called "followers."

posted by dusted at 12:57 AM on May 06

I have had the same feelings myself when I was younger. Everybody experiments a little in college. I'm glad you felt comfortable enough with us to share that, daddisamm.

posted by rcade at 05:45 AM on May 06

Dusted, the hard part to explain is the Cheney and Keyes families, you'd think with daughters like theirs the parents would hold different positions.

posted by billsaysthis at 06:28 PM on May 06

Once you personally know someone that is gay, it's a lot harder to continue being a bigot. Religion will make it easier, though, helping you see a sinner instead of a person. Critical and independent thinking like Texan_lost_in_NY demonstrates is rarely found inside a fundamentalist church. There's a reason they're called "followers." posted by dusted at 12:57 AM CST on May 6 Interesting comment. I would be very interested as how you came to that conclusion. As far as seeing a sinner-we are all sinners no-one gets out of that label.

posted by daddisamm at 09:13 PM on May 06

Everybody experiments a little in college. I'm glad you felt comfortable enough with us to share that, daddisamm. posted by rcade at 5:45 AM CST on May 6 Wow rcade, you read me like a book!

posted by daddisamm at 09:15 PM on May 06

Wow rcade, you read me like a book! A comic book? I keed! I keed!

posted by jasonspaceman at 05:45 AM on May 07

cute

posted by daddisamm at 01:05 AM on May 08

cute

posted by jasonspaceman at 06:09 AM on May 08

You're not logged in. Please log in or register.