April 26, 2007

I'll back Francona on that line. I remember being glued to the TV that night, amazed at what I was watching.

If it is indeed paint, that's pretty pathetic. If it's not that Mr. thorne has some 'splainin' to do.

posted by SummersEve at 7:11 AM CDT on April 26

I, like SE can remember watching this game and being glued to the TV as well with amazement in what Curt Schilling was doing with the whole bloody sock and him pitching like man possesed. If indeed this was a PR stunt, then it's a damn shame anyone in the Red Sox organization would dupe the fans in order to win them over with the sympathetic vote. One thing though is that Gary Thorne so happens to be highly respected in his field, not some scrub journalist, so I see no reason for him to lie about this. The bloody sock was sent to the Hall of Fame and after watching years of CSI, MLB should pull a Grissom and conduct a DNA test and make sure it is in fact Curt Schillings blood, someone elses blood or if in fact it is just paint. Then again, if MLB can't even get the HGH thing straightened out, the questions about the bloody sock will probably never be answered. Good story though.

posted by BornIcon at 7:29 AM CDT on April 26

There is no advantage garnered by having a bloody sock.

Absolutely, but you don't get a nickname like "Red Light" for nothing.

Is it a leap to think that if it was fabricated it was not to draw attention to himself and/or his surgery, but rather the K ALS message written on his shoe? Players write messages on their uni's or hats in many. many games and they aren't highlighted by a close up shot like that one was. The shoe will be as much a part of the memory and the image as the sock is through history.

posted by YukonGold at 7:59 AM CDT on April 26

The sock is in a glass case in Cooperstown. You could do DNA testing on it, for crying out loud. Easiest. Authentication. Ever.

posted by ssflanders at 8:34 AM CDT on April 26

And I agree with LBBs post above: Francona needs to pull back a little.

If Francona said that to a giant national publication like SI, yes. If he said that on the steps of the Vietnam memorial, hell yes. He said it to Edes at the Globe. The Boston audience. For what it's worth, generally Boston fans were enthralled with the emotion of the series and the game, and a lot people in Boston thought it was amazing and "heroic" in the realm of the game. No one was comparing Curt Schilling to an NYPD officer on 9/11. We can differentiate incredible feats in baseball games over actual true heroism.

I can't remember if K ALS was on his shoe from the beginning of the game or not, or if it was something he put on between innings when they realized his ankle was getting camera time. I could be totally incorrect, though. I don't recall the minute details and that entire series took a year off my life, easily.

If authentication ever was actually required, the sock is in the HOF. DNA test it. Surely that would be easier to figure out than whether -insert your favorite HR record holder here- was juiced 5 years ago.

posted by jerseygirl at 9:03 AM CDT on April 26

posts about himself tirelessly in his very own blog

I'm hardly Curt's biggest fan, but plenty of athletes have blogs and they tend to post about themselves because . . . it's a blog. Also, I find Curt's blog to be a really interesting insight into the mind of an athlete during competition. Check out the most recent post and compare it with the local Boston or Baltimore sports stories today. The sports pages have recaps of the game you saw. Schilling at least offers something more.

jg, I don't remember if it was there the whole time either. What you're saying sounds familiar. I'm being buffeted by the winds here.

posted by yerfatma at 9:17 AM CDT on April 26

For what it's worth, generally Boston fans were enthralled with the emotion of the series and the game, and a lot people in Boston thought it was amazing and "heroic" in the realm of the game.

Oh, sure, I get it, and Francona made his own disclaimer. It's just that the phrase "...one of the most incredible feats I ever witnessed" made me chuckle. In the context of the game of baseball, sure, but I'd think even Francona would have seen things outside the game of baseball that would make a bloody sock look a lot less incredible.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 9:22 AM CDT on April 26

If NBC doesn't re-up Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip, I really hope they develop a Law and Order: Bloody Sock Unit to fill that timeslot. I want MAYANKEE as the lead character, an inquisitive detective with a thirst for knowledge but a passive approach to recovery evidence to solve the case.

posted by jerseygirl at 9:36 AM CDT on April 26

Maybe now these questions that bothered me so will finally be answered...

Sorry MAYANKEE but with a name like your's, I'm sure your still questioning whether Boston actually came back to win four in a row in that series. Any Yankee fan would question any and everything that has to do with Boston, especially with the start they're having this year. It's better to talk about the past than deal with the present, at least for the moment because even though I despise the Yanks even I can't count the Evil Empire out....just yet.

posted by BornIcon at 9:39 AM CDT on April 26

re: the KALS thing, the photo on this page doesn't have it. i did a quick search and the only photos i've seen with the letters on the shoe i assume were taken during the world series because he's wearing white pants. were they there at all during the ALCS game?

posted by goddam at 9:49 AM CDT on April 26

"What we're going through today as a nation, you hate to use a word like heroic on the field, but what Schill did that night on the sports field was one of the most incredible feats I ever witnessed," Francona said

Uhhhhh, am i missing something here? I do more incredible feats daily.

posted by TelamarketersBeware at 10:18 AM CDT on April 26

Transcript from the game:

"Jim Palmer: He's 40 years old. He asked the Red Sox to pick up an option for next year. And Theo Epstein said we're not in the business of picking up options for 41-year old pitchers, but if you pitch well, we'd love to have you back.

Gary Thorne: 0-2 delivery in the dirt.

Palmer: Of course, he announced it on his blog.

Thorne: Oh yeah. Well nothing's done by Curt Schilling unless it's on his blog.

Palmer: Well, there's a great line here. It says "No mere sports reporter could hope to be as authoritative on the subject as Schilling himself. For the avid fan, reading Schilling on Schilling may offer the sort of enlightment an art historian might expect if a diary were to suddenly be discovered in which Rembrandt set down self-critical evaluations of every brush stroke shortly after removing his smock and cleaning his brushes." That was an editorial in the Globe ...

Thorne: And there was no puncutation in that by the way.

Palmer: No, no.

Thorne: Bako's got a 1-2 count here.

Palmer (laughs): Well, 2 strikes, 2 outs, I had to get it in there in a hurry.

Thorne: It's good.

Palmer: But the Globe's just talking, I mean that's Curt.

Thorne: Well, the press hates him in Boston --

Palmer: Yeah.

Thorne: -- because he doesn't cooperate. 1-2 delivery and that one's taken in the dirt. The great story we were talking about the other night was that famous red stocking that he wore when they finally won, the blood on his stocking. Nah. It was painted. Doug Mirabelli confessed up to it after. It was all for PR. Two ball, two strike count.

Palmer: Yeah, that was the 2004 World Series.

Thorne: Yeah.

Palmer: That second appearance.

Thorne: 2 and 2, 2 down. Orioles struggling here just trying to get somebody on and get something going against him. He wanted that call, didn't get it, did a little jump step, 3-2 count."



----------------------



Thorne also said about Schilling of how "the press hates him up in Boston" because he does not cooperate with them and talks to the fans directly via his blog.

Jim Palmer, Thorne´s partner has mentioned earlier in the interview that it had been Nolan Ryan who who gave Curt the "straight talk" that got his career back on track when in fact it had been Roger Clemens.

So why the lies?

---------------------


These two seem have a conspiracy vs. Curt Schilling!

I would do a DNA test on the sock, and if it is in fact blood, with that proof I´d sue Thorn for slander.

posted by zippinglou at 10:24 AM CDT on April 26

I didn't see the game. I listened on the radio. I don't have an opinion on the makeup of the red stuff on Schilling's sock. My question would be, "Who is going to pay for a DNA test?"

-- Even if the Hall of Fame WAS interested in proving how easily they can be duped by a garment they held in their own hands, they are a not-for-profit organization that does not have spare funds for conducting DNA tests on their artifacts.

-- MLB has no incentive to conduct DNA tests. People are talking about baseball, and creating a legend. MLB could care less what is actually on the sock.

-- The Boston club's response to the story ranges from indignance to militant apathy. And as long as the sock is a story, everyone is being reminded of their remarkable run in 2004. Don't see them (or Schilling or Mirabelli individually) bothering with this.

-- The Yankees could do it out of spite. I don't see the PR angle to it. I only see it making them look bad. Especially if the results were "blood." They just want that series to go away.

So we're really down to the individuals who have credibility on the line -- Thorne and whatever other odd person who has publicly declared they believe it's paint. Even if they had the motivation and the wherewithall to do the testing -- which I am guessing is not cheap -- they still have the issue of getting possession of the sock for the purpose of testing.

Don't hold your breath for the exciting scientific conclusion of this story.

posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 10:34 AM CDT on April 26

What kind of idiot would bring up some crap like this on Curt.

TBH hey man i know what the dude went through and i know it must have been painfull. I have a torn tendon in my right knee and i'm playing basketball, wich is a lot more work than pitching, every damn day. It's getting worse and i don't give a crap. It's not bleeding because i hav'nt had surgery yet. I know a guy who laserated his spleen and broke a few of his ribs by crashing on a dirt bike. In one week he was back on it. I tore my achilleas tendon, sprained my ankle, and bruised my tail-bone on a bike crash and the next day started and finished a competative basketball game.

What i'm tring to get at is if a bleeding ankle is the most incredible thing Francona has seen, than he needs to turn on the TV.

posted by TelamarketersBeware at 10:45 AM CDT on April 26

If NBC doesn't re-up Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip, I really hope they develop a Law and Order: Bloody Sock Unit to fill that timeslot. I want MAYANKEE as the lead character, an inquisitive detective with a thirst for knowledge but a passive approach to recovery evidence to solve the case.

CSI: Cooperstown. I can think of a couple of cases I'd like them to investigate.

I'm pretty sure this sock never gets tested. MLB wants the sock to have blood on it so there's no reason to test it and any controversy around it just keeps people talking about it.

posted by tron7 at 11:11 AM CDT on April 26

If NBC doesn't re-up Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip, I really hope they develop a Law and Order: Bloody Sock Unit to fill that timeslot. I want MAYANKEE as the lead character, an inquisitive detective with a thirst for knowledge but a passive approach to recovery evidence to solve the case.

But he also needs to add some corny shit like: "the game is afoot" at the beginning of the episode for the Caruso-esque line to kick it off.

posted by chris2sy at 11:33 AM CDT on April 26

Even if Schilling's bloody sock is really a bloody sock, I still think Mirabelli probably did tell Thorne that it was just paint. Anyway as justgary's link has pointed out, we will never know if it was paint/blood during the game. Schilling had control of the evidence, so the chain of custody has been broken. So much for CSI!

Anyway, I would like to think it was blood, and I wish other people would be more cooperative in allowing such legends to develop.

posted by bperk at 11:45 AM CDT on April 26

"Thorne: -- because he doesn't cooperate. 1-2 delivery and that one's taken in the dirt. The great story we were talking about the other night was that famous red stocking that he wore when they finally won, the blood on his stocking. Nah. It was painted. Doug Mirabelli confessed up to it after. It was all for PR. Two ball, two strike count.

Palmer: Yeah, that was the 2004 World Series.

Thorne: Yeah.

Palmer: That second appearance."



Game 6 ALCS = Blood
Game 2 WS = Paint

He realized how much camera time his ankle got in the ALCS that he went and painted it for the World Series to draw more attention for ALS. Is that so hard to figure out?

posted by GOD at 11:49 AM CDT on April 26

He realized how much camera time his ankle got in the ALCS that he went and painted it for the World Series to draw more attention for ALS. Is that so hard to figure out?

Well, what I have a hard time figuring out is this: if his ankle was leaking blood in his October 19th start, given the trauma it was put through, how could it have healed up completely by October 24th, and why would he want a splash of wet paint that close to an open wound?

posted by Venicemenace at 11:58 AM CDT on April 26

Sure, Mirabelli told Thorne it was just paint, as a joke or to get a rise out of him or to get some stink up or maybe, just maybe, to get him to say something about it on the air. Of course he's denying it now that it's a storm in a teacup. It wouldn't spark any outrage if Thorne hadn't made it up out of whole cloth.

What motive would Thorne have for inventing this and implicating Mirabelli? To rally Boston fans, and maybe the team, against the opposition?

Mirabelli played him. He must be a real hero to newspaper columnists and radio hosts all over Massachusetts, giving them something a little more interesting to talk about than the Red Sox.

posted by Hugh Janus at 12:13 PM CDT on April 26

Even though I wouldn't put it past Schilling to pull a fake blood stunt to get more air time, I don't doubt that the blood was real. Maybe he exaggerated it a little bit, but the guy did have stitches in his ankle.

What I didn't like was how everyone was so amazed during and after the games he pitched, as if it was some heroic act and he was a special amazing case for playing hurt. I know I've said this on here before, but show me one major league pitcher who doesn't take the mound in that condition. It's the playoffs! People can handle a little pain.

The other thing I didn't like, and yes, this is because I just plain don't like the Sox or Schilling, is that the injury meant that there was going to be a pro-Schilling story either way. If he got shelled, as he did in Game 2, it's a built-in excuse. It's not Curt's fault, it's the injury! If he wins, as he did in Game 6 (when I'm pretty confident any of us would've had a good shot of beating the Yankees, the way they had completely shut down and given up at that point. A theme in the last several years... Great leadership, Torre!), he's a hero for pitching through an injury. Honestly, I respect the guy for going out and pitching well, but come on. He was just going out and doing his job. This is probably going to end up putting him in the hall of fame though.

As with everything else these days, it got blown way out of proportion and ended up annoying the shit out of me. So even though it's now being called into question, I'm not a big fan of the fact that it's in the news again.

And don't you guys even watch CSI? They don't need an expensive DNA test, all they need is a swab and that liquid you drip on it. If it's blood, it turns bright pink! Magic!

posted by Bernreuther at 12:42 PM CDT on April 26

I know I've said this on here before, but show me one major league pitcher who doesn't take the mound in that condition. It's the playoffs! People can handle a little pain.

So you're saying that Joel Zumaya's wrist injury sustained while playing too much Guitar Hero was a more serious condition than this? Zumaya sat out last year's ALCS with a video game-induced owie.

posted by Venicemenace at 12:56 PM CDT on April 26

BornIcon, by his own admission, Schilling needs a couple more very good to dominant years to merit Hall consideration.

He's at what... 210 wins now? How many Cy Youngs does he have? He also wasn't the most valuable pitcher on either of those championship teams. (Well, not in the playoffs anyway.)

posted by Bernreuther at 1:18 PM CDT on April 26

Heroics in the same sentance as Baseball or sports in general is a bit of an exaggeration. The only thing in sports I can think of that I can consider heroic is Pat Tillman giving up a fat NFL contract to serve his country at the cost of his life. Nothing that happens on the field qualifies.

posted by Atheist at 1:21 PM CDT on April 26

Could it have been faked? Sure. But when you look at the whole picture it's not very likely. Ever had stitches? They can bleed. Now pitch 6 innings and see what happens. Not to mention the picture, and what the doctor said. And how it's turned brown now. And why would curt, who seems like a smart guy, give the sock over when he could have kept it. It could be fake, simply because it's a possibility, but nothing in this thread points to that conclusion at all.

What's strange is that Thorne said he was told this by Mirabelli a couple of years ago, and he brings it up now? And surely he knew it would be a big story, yet he just throws it out during a game?

It wouldn't take much to prove it's blood. It would take more, however, to prove it was curt's blood. And since he brought it home, maybe he took a new sock and pricked his finger and put that blood on the sock. So you could still question the sock even if it proves to be curt's blood. Don't think people wouldn't.

While watching the game all I could think of was blatant publicity stunt by the same ego maniac that posts about himself tirelessly in his very own blog.
posted by gradys_kitchen

A good number of the people who post on sportsfilter have their own blogs. You are writing on a blog. I've seen fans that hate curt that think it's pretty cool what he's doing. Just say "I hate Schilling" and get it over with. Or go watch gibson hit his home run a dozen more times. It takes a lot less time than watching someone pitch 6 innings. (by the way, I think gibson accentuated his limp to get a grooved pitch, just saying).

Yeah, Venice, but Zumaya's an idiot. I mean, c'mon -- if you were in his place, about to pay in the ALCS, with that level of "injury", would you have sat out? I'm willing to bet not.
posted by lil_brown_bat

I'll go one further. I think when the majority of players upon hearing of the sugery would have backed out. Playing through pain? I can see it. The actual surgery? Nope.

The other thing I didn't like, and yes, this is because I just plain don't like the Sox or Schilling...
posted by Bernreuther

That's kind of like starting your comment with "nothing I'm about to say can be trusted".

Heroics in the same sentance as Baseball or sports in general is a bit of an exaggeration.
posted by Atheist

Nonsense. One can be heroic in the context of sports. It's up to the reader to understand that.

posted by justgary at 1:39 PM CDT on April 26

If Craig Biggio can get into the Hall of Fame for hitting doubles

I have no idea why that would preclude someone's entrance. Especially since Biggio did a few other things well and played at some tough positions. I do agree with you on Guitar Hero though. It's worth missing an ALCS start for.

posted by yerfatma at 1:42 PM CDT on April 26

That's kind of like starting your comment with "nothing I'm about to say can be trusted".

Well, I'm not asking anyone to trust it, it's just my opinion. Just wanted to make it clear that it's both an opinion and biased.

Icon, Given that Schilling was on the hook for the L in Game 7 till Rivera blew it, it's not a stretch to say that Johnson, with 3 Ws, deserved that MVP in 2001 outright. (Through the 3 playoff series though they were both kind of ridiculous.) In 2004 it was Lowe, not Schilling, who pitched out of his mind and dominated. (Man, it feels weird to say that.) But your opinion about this mirrors that of a lot of people that have hall votes, which is why he could retire today and get in despite not really having the overall stats to support it. A few more years? Sure. Now? It's a stretch, but the publicity he's gotten from 2004 is going to give him a hell of a boost.

posted by Bernreuther at 2:12 PM CDT on April 26

Blood or not, the guy was pitching DAYS after having surgery on the ankle. You can't dispute that. He had a fresh wound that obviously could open up and/or ooze a little. He was playing in pain and was still dominant. That is the true story. The people from the HOF have stated that the blood on the sock has since turned brown, which proves that it is not paint. If they decided to paint the sock for game 6, maybe it was a case of superstition. Schilling felt that he did well in game 2 with a bloody sock, so he wanted to stay in the same rhythm.

The main question is: Does it really fuckin matter?

posted by yay-yo at 2:31 PM CDT on April 26

2 of 10. I phrased that poorly, I meant that being similar to those very good pitchers does not make you hall-worthy.

posted by Bernreuther at 2:58 PM CDT on April 26

I agree with that assessment. And he seems to as well, which I think is a large part of the reason he wanted an extension.

It's entirely possible that he could toss up another 20+ win season and title this year the way things are going... that'd certainly help his case.

posted by Bernreuther at 3:42 PM CDT on April 26

For what it's worth, here is a take on Schilling's Hall of Fame chances from The Hardball Times. Short answer: he's in according to the article.

posted by trox at 3:58 PM CDT on April 26

I saw the sock go "Back, and to the left.....Back, and to the left." I also think I saw another sock up on the grassy knoll, behind the fence, near the railway tracks.

posted by tommytrump at 4:29 PM CDT on April 26

I know I've said this on here before, but show me one major league pitcher who doesn't take the mound in that condition. It's the playoffs! People can handle a little pain.

They can't handle a "little pain" if the injury alters their mechanics to the point where they don't perform to the best of their ability, therefore lessening the chance their team wins the game and (in Schilling's case) continue competing in the playoffs.

Cascading injuries is the "big thing" in sports analysis right now. The most famous case is Dizzy Dean and his big toe.

This is why the mantra of "pitching through the pain" is such a ridiculous concept.

posted by grum@work at 4:57 PM CDT on April 26

The sock is in a glass case in Cooperstown. You could do DNA testing on it, for crying out loud. Easiest. Authentication. Ever.

Actually, the "bloody" sock was not given to the HOF until several weeks later. Though the sock supposedly is one of the most popular exhibits, it was not mentioned in the HOF exhibit for the Red Sox series win. Schilling's spikes were given immediately and are mentioned, but the sock reportedly was not donated until several weeks later.

And I agree with GOD that the announcers are talking about the WS sock, not the ALCS sock that everyone was watching on TV.

posted by graymatters at 6:30 PM CDT on April 26

"Who is going to pay for a DNA test?"posted by The Crafty Sousepaw

What kind of idiot would bring up some crap like this on Curt. posted by TelamarketersBeware

If Curt Shilling has nothing to hide and wants to prove Thorne wrong, he has the money to pay for the DNA test and all the right to sue the guy for defaming him.

posted by zippinglou at 9:53 PM CDT on April 26

There HAD to be a second shoot(er). I mean sock(er). I mean shoot(er).

posted by tommytrump at 10:39 PM CDT on April 26

Whoa!! I honestly didn't think this many people cared that much about a sock. I prefer crew cuts myself but can deal with ankle socks but only in the summer while wearing shorts....and blood-free of course.

posted by BornIcon at 5:03 AM CDT on April 27

What is funny is that we discussed this at work for about 15 seconds before everyone (all sox fans) agreed with my general opinion. I don't care if they were all drunk and high with painted faces. Whatever it took to win the World Series. And if that is all I took than I am off to the Post Office to mail them a case of Schlitz and a can of spraypaint so they can stay on track this year.

posted by kyrilmitch_76 at 5:45 AM CDT on April 27

Nah, the best part was when he said he spoke with Mirabelli and said, "I talked to Doug, he was wonderful." Wonderful? Did Mirabelli perform a Shakespeare play? Was it Othello?

It is the cause, it is the cause, my soul,--
Let me not name it to you, you chaste stars!--
It is the cause. Yet I'll not shed her blood;
Nor scar that whiter skin of hers than snow,
And smooth as monumental alabaster.
Yet she must die, else she'll betray more men.
Put out the light, and then put out the light:
If I quench thee, thou flaming minister,
I can again thy former light restore,
Should I repent me: but once put out thy light,
Thou cunning'st pattern of excelling nature,
I know not where is that Promethean heat
That can thy light relume. When I have pluck'd the rose,
I cannot give it vital growth again.
It must needs wither: I'll smell it on the tree.

Bravo.
Bravo.
Doug, that was wonderful.

posted by BornIcon at 6:30 AM CDT on April 27