BornIcon: Ok, firstly LBB...calm down, it's not the end of the world because I don't agree with you. Ok, firstly Bornicon...stop saying "calm down" and trying to suggest that I'm being irrational, excitable, hysterical, and not calm. That's a cheap, sleazy (and frequently sexist) debating tactic, so drop it. Did I say that you brought up the police? No I did not You brought up the police, almost as a non sequitur, in response to the following: ...and at the point where this girl is actually being harassed or stalked, it may be too late. At what point do you start to consider risk? At the point where it's standing right in front of you with a nine-inch knife? Just because it's happened to others doesn't mean it will happen to Stokke; OTOH, it strikes me as prudent for her and her parents to consider the pattern in other cases, and be wary. Your response was, basically, that the police can't be involved until there's "proof" of a "crime". Why were you talking about the police? so again, calm down. So again, stop insulting me by pretending that I'm not calm. So now I'm not only 'naive' but I'm 'incredibly naive?' Good one there, chief. I'm sorry you feel insulted, but it is an incredibly naive reaction to respond to concerns about safety, and particularly stalking, with the word "police", and nothing else. The fact is, unless there is actual proof that a person is being stalked and/of harrassed the police cannot do anything about it. You brought up the 'what if' factor with your whole 'nine-inch knife' spiel and I retorted. You retorted with what it takes to get the police involved. Your "fact" (which I don't think is a fact, exactly as you've stated it, but let's let that go for now) is something of a non sequitur, and sits smack dab in the blind spot that my comments were attempting to address: if you fail to act when things start getting creepy, if you listen to people who are telling you that you're making a "mountain of a molehill" rather than to your own gut and common sense, by the time you've got your so-called "proof" and can call the police (the one and only tool, we all know, for dealing with stalking), it may well be too late. And I agree. No one, not male or female should have to go thru something like this but until a person can actually prove beyond reasonable doubt that someone is being harrassed or stalked, there is nothing that the law can do about it. Perhaps we do need to look closer at this "fact". That phrase "beyond a reasonable doubt" is one that is associated with a criminal conviction. There is, at least in my state, a crime of stalking or harassment, a felony punishable by up to five years in prison. However, to believe that the police can only act after receiving evidence that would result in a criminal conviction for stalking is equivalent to saying that the police have no authority to take steps to prevent a violent crime. This is, of course, pure nonsense. Specific to stalking and harassment, there is the remedy of a restraining order, for which the burden of "proof" is quite different, and the phrase "beyond a reasonable doubt" has no place here. It doesn't seem to be the case here except her privacy was invaded by people from the internet. Question: what do you think is appropriate for her to do at this point?
Question: what do you think is appropriate for her to do at this point? Buy a gun and wait in the living room with the front door unlocked, ready to shoot the first asshole that walks through the door... Oh wait, that's what I would do. She can't do anything about it. She's 18, she's pretty, and people want to look at her pictures. It's no different than seeing Paris Hilton and all those other Hollywood types on every damn magazine at the grocery store. How come no one is worried about her safety? I don't see her cruising with body guards or security and she is 1000X more famous than this track girl and everyone has seen her NAKED performing sexual acts in front of a camera (with pretty good skills I might add). I really don't see the big freakin deal about this story. It's not the first time someone has found a girl to be pretty and passed her picture on to someone. It just so happens that this one made it to the internet. It's the world we live in.
I'm questioning the ethics of the Post in this case: the story wasn't really current any longer, and their piece is certainly not going to help Stokke recede from the spotlight I used to work at a newspaper. The issue you're describing -- if we cover this interesting person who gave us a great interview, she may face undesired consequences -- never comes up in a newsroom. Unless somebody's kidding.
Was this even a great interview? To me it looks like a convenient way to use sex to sell copies, while taking the moral high road about Internet sites doing the exact same thing. The NY correspondent from a Montreal daily blogged the story and asked more or less my question: is the Post article helping the situation at all? Then he cracked: "Me, I'm just reporting on the news".
To me it looks like a convenient way to use sex to sell copies, while taking the moral high road about Internet sites doing the exact same thing. Do they not have an expression like "win-win" in French?
I really don't see the big freakin deal about this story. It's not the first time someone has found a girl to be pretty and passed her picture on to someone. It just so happens that this one made it to the internet. It's the world we live in.
Well that is part of the point. To some it isn't a big deal, to others it is the turning this person into nothing more than a sex object. I'm not saying that anything untoward will happen to Stokke, but is that really the point? Surely the point is that she has some right to privacy? It isn't as though she is an international super star. She is a school girl. And as someone not in the public arena deserves her privacy. To say that there is nothing wrong with hundreds of people pouring over her picture in a sexual manner is wrong. I'd get all argumentative about it, but really, this isn't just a sporting issue so I'm not sure if the discussion belongs here. I'm also well aware that the fact that it is wrong isn't going to change anything. This
is the world we live in, but I don't have to be happy about it.
Sex and sports may be intertwined, but sex and high school sports certainly shouldn't be. This unwanted attention will surely pass, but it is disturbing that a high school student would be subject to it for merely participating in high school athletics. If they don't want sex and high school sports to be intertwined then why dress in things that can be described like this: At 5 feet 7, Stokke has smooth, olive-colored skin and toned muscles. In the photo, her vaulting pole rests on her right shoulder. Her right hand appears to be adjusting the elastic band on her ponytail. Her spandex uniform -- black shorts and a white tank top that are standard for a track athlete -- reveals a bare midriff. You can't tell me that there aren't shirts that wouldn't cover her midriff. Also, why do her shorts and top have to be spandex? She is in high school, if you don't want the negative attention brought upon your daughter like that, then don't let her wear those clothes! It's no different than seeing Paris Hilton and all those other Hollywood types on every damn magazine at the grocery store. How come no one is worried about her safety? I don't see her cruising with body guards or security and she is 1000X more famous than this track girl and everyone has seen her NAKED performing sexual acts in front of a camera (with pretty good skills I might add). Completely different, Paris Hilton purposely poses for those photos, knowing they are going to be plastered all over the internet and magazines.
You can't tell me that there aren't shirts that wouldn't cover her midriff. Also, why do her shorts and top have to be spandex? She is in high school, if you don't want the negative attention brought upon your daughter like that, then don't let her wear those clothes! I wanted to say the same thing, but was worried it would come out as "she's asking for the attention". I don't believe that. That's pretty much standard clothing on high school athletes, which amazes me. I'm not THAT far out of high school, and I can't believe the changes in high school uniforms, from athletic to cheer. I also don't understand the need to put words like "cheer" or the schools name on the back of cheer shorts of young girls. I guess I'm just getting old.
She is in high school, if you don't want the negative attention brought upon your daughter like that, then don't let her wear those clothes! She should be dressing for her athletic competition in clothes that are appropriate for what she is doing. Given what I have seen of pole vaulting, her clothes seem appropriate to me. Furthermore, even if she could cover her midriff, maybe she doesn't want to. She is just going to a track meet and there aren't that many people there anyway. I guarantee she wasn't the only one with an exposed midriff. Surely, you don't expect her to anticipate that someone might snap a picture of her that would get spread over the internet.
I wanted to say the same thing, but was worried it would come out as "she's asking for the attention". Also not what I meant either.
Given what I have seen of pole vaulting, her clothes seem appropriate to me. Furthermore, even if she could cover her midriff, maybe she doesn't want to. No one's blaming her. No one's not saying she's not wearing what everyone else is wearing. But don't dress high school athletes like that and then be shocked with the attention.
jojo and gary, I so agree with you about the clothing and didn't want it to come out wrong. I don't think I would be comfortable with my daughter in those outfits, but then I still get protective when I see her in a bathing suit, so I guess that's my problem. But still, the outfit did seem a little more revealing than necessary.
But don't dress high school athletes like that and then be shocked with the attention. It's not just attention, it's the ridiculous amount of attention. The fact that a picture of her at a high school track meet could be spread so wide and so fast to perverts across the world is the problem. I'm quite sure she wouldn't be upset if the attention was a couple of high school boys who were at the track meet checking her out.
Furthermore, the whole "what do you expect" attitude is a ridiculous double standard. I expect grown men to not ogle high school girls, even on the internet. I expect people to ogle people who choose to put themselves out there, not some kid competing at a high school track meet. Boys at high school swim meets don't have to worry about their attire making them sex objects at every turn. It is ludicrous that she has to worry about that stuff. You can choose who you wish to exploit for entertainment and ogling purposes. Avoid high school.
The fact that a picture of her at a high school track meet could be spread so wide and so fast to perverts across the world is the problem. I'm quite sure she wouldn't be upset if the attention was a couple of high school boys who were at the track meet checking her out. Agreed. When I was in high school this wasn't a problem. Times have certainly changed.
is a ridiculous double standard And one that won't go away anytime soon. I applaud your high standards, while also realizing you're speaking of a world that does not exist.
By the way, that picture could easily be of a college athlete. I'm sure many doing the 'ogling' had no idea she was in high school (I'm sure at the point of realization they lost all attraction to the young lady).
And one that won't go away anytime soon. I applaud your high standards, while also realizing you're speaking of a world that does not exist. Yes, I know, but at least we can focus our attention on the perverts instead of evaluating the appropriateness of girls wearing spandex to a high school track meet.
She should be dressing for her athletic competition in clothes that are appropriate for what she is doing. Given what I have seen of pole vaulting, her clothes seem appropriate to me. Totally. And those appropriate clothes are damn sexy.
Yes, I know, but at least we can focus our attention on the perverts instead of evaluating the appropriateness of girls wearing spandex to a high school track meet. All I'm saying is that when I was in high school (old man rant) athletes weren't dressed in that way. If she had on normal shorts and a tank top she probably isn't all over the internet. You can focus as much time as you want on the perverts but it's a useless battle. Maybe I don't have the answer either, but there's nothing wrong with discussing the appropriateness of high school athlete's uniforms, especially if we're against them being seen in any sexual light.
Look, all I'm saying is back in the day, the girls in track dressed different, ya know? I'm certain that if a girl showed up at one of the meets like that the boys AND probably some of the dads would (or might have) had an inappropriate, and maybe involuntary, visceral response. Again, I don't want this comment to be construed as "she had it coming", but c'mon. There's nothing else that you can wear to pole vault in? On preview- what Gary said
Dude, did I go to school with you?
bperk: Yes, I know, but at least we can focus our attention on the perverts instead of evaluating the appropriateness of girls wearing spandex to a high school track meet. What you said. She's not the one with the problem that needs fixin'. Look in the mirror, people. And further down, justgary: All I'm saying is that when I was in high school (old man rant) athletes weren't dressed in that way. If she had on normal shorts and a tank top she probably isn't all over the internet. Yeah, maybe we should make football teams wear the leather helmets with the earflaps, because they're what football players wore back when some old guy was in high school. Come on. Your so-called "normal shorts and a tank top" wouldn't be "normal" any more. That's the point. You can focus as much time as you want on the perverts but it's a useless battle. Maybe I don't have the answer either, but there's nothing wrong with discussing the appropriateness of high school athlete's uniforms, especially if we're against them being seen in any sexual light. So how about the boys' swim team in the speedos? Let's discuss that, shall we? Those speedos really aren't appropriate, so -- in the interest of not fighting the "useless battle" of putting the responsibility for horn-dogging firmly where it belongs -- let's force them to wear baggy, shapeless, neck-to-toes bathing costumes when they compete. That suit you?
Oh please, lbb, your over the top reaction and agressive tone is exactly why I didn't want to even get into this conversation. let's force them to wear baggy, shapeless, neck-to-toes bathing costumes when they compete. That suit you? If that's what you took from my reponse then we'll agree to disagree. I'm not taking the bait.
lbb: Yes, that would be fine with me. Is she a better pole vaulter with the clothing she is pictured in rather than the shorts and tank tops that they wore back in the early 80's when, say, I was in school?
Is she a better pole vaulter with the clothing she is pictured in rather than the shorts and tank tops that they wore back in the early 80's when, say, I was in school? I believe that both male and female track athletes began wearing spandex for performance reasons. If you watch any track & field, you would see that her outfit is what track athletes wear (Stacy Dragila). I am all for putting checks on risque clothing for young people when it is appropriate. I just don't think that female high school track athletes should be held to a different standard than their male counterparts because some men might be unable control their baser instincts.
So that's why I said I don't have a problem with getting the boys out of the speedos. I do, however, get annoyed at the fault being layed at the feet of men all the time. As far as their performance being enhanced, I'm not buying it. The Greeks competed naked in the original Olympics, but nobody wants that. Like the cyclists who said they shave their legs because they feel it looks good, I think that may be the case with the popularity of spandex.
I do, however, get annoyed at the fault being layed at the feet of men all the time. What do you mean?
justgary: Oh please, lbb, your over the top reaction and agressive tone is exactly why I didn't want to even get into this conversation. I'm sorry; next time I'll put in the smileys just for you. Smiley football helmet smiley smiley there old timer okay? let's force them to wear baggy, shapeless, neck-to-toes bathing costumes when they compete. That suit you? If that's what you took from my reponse then we'll agree to disagree. I'm not taking the bait. It wasn't bait, it was a question. I understand what you're saying about cause and effect; I disagree with you about the remedy. You keep saying you can't do anything about those perverts out there, but what you can do, at a bare minimum, is admit that the girls on the high school track team aren't the ones doing something wrong when they wear the standard uniform for their sport. The fault lies elsewhere. Acknowledging that is a crucial first step.
Is she a better pole vaulter with the clothing she is pictured in rather than the shorts and tank tops that they wore back in the early 80's when, say, I was in school? I believe that both male and female track athletes began wearing spandex for performance reasons. If you watch any track & field, you would see that her outfit is what track athletes wear (Stacy Dragila). I am all for putting checks on risque clothing for young people when it is appropriate. I just don't think that female high school track athletes should be held to a different standard than their male counterparts because some men might be unable control their baser instincts. Soon, someone will be saying Allison is ''asking'' for the attention because of the clothes she's wearing. She is wearing what pole vaulters wear when pole vaulting. On preview, what l_b_b said.
Yeah, I think this is going nowhere. I think I would run out of italics for the quotes that indicate men are perverts on this thread. I'm not trying to offend anyone here, and I'm not saying that this situation is her fault. And with that..........
I'm sorry; next time I'll put in the smileys just for you. I don't need smileys. It would nice if you didn't take my views and stretch them to ridiculous lengths. I don't think mocking sarcasm facilitates discussion. You keep saying you can't do anything about those perverts out there, but what you can do, at a bare minimum, is admit that the girls on the high school track team aren't the ones doing something wrong when they wear the standard uniform for their sport. These are high school athletes. The school can tell the students / athletes what is appropriate to wear, and do. If they told their athletes mini-spandex shorts could not be worn, they wouldn't, and it would no longer be standard. You're looking at this as a right/wrong issue. Should a girl competing in high school athletics be able to do wear that uniform without being ogled? Definitely. Is it going to happen? Nope. I never said the girl was wrong. Maybe I don't have the solution. I can accept that. You said you don't agree with my remedy. You don't have a remedy. Soon, someone will be saying Allison is ''asking'' for the attention because of the clothes she's wearing. But no one here has.
New development: The photographer who shot the best-known picture has reversed his original decision and now OKs Internet publication of the shots, telling With Leather that "he thought that the Stokke family's spoken desires to stay out of the spotlight were at odds with their actions (speaking to the Washington Post, appearing on FOX News today*), and he no longer finds them a sympathetic cause."
Soon, someone will be saying Allison is ''asking'' for the attention because of the clothes she's wearing Fine, Tommy, I'll be that guy. Allison is just like almost every other girl in my generation, neglected for attention from her daddy and desperate to seek affirmation from men through her body. In other words, she wants guys to ogle her, and is really nothing more than a whore. I mean, c'mon, is it a coincidence that her chosen sport involves a long pole? I think not. She's practically begging to be raped by some dude who read about her on the internet, perhaps even on this very thread. On a lighter and much more serious note, I am impressed that this has turned into a flame spray over women's images and the internet, and not one about Title IX, and whether women in sport deserve coverage like this. As Weedy alluded to, sex and sports are interwoven, and the fact that people are arguing how she should deal with this instead of suggesting, as I have not here, that she could stop pole vaulting and avoid unwanted attention, is a good sign in women's sports, I think. On a second more serious note, if not one as light as the first, high-schools/colleges around the nation: are you taking notice of this, and maybe thinking about preparing athletes for something like this (especially colleges), and are you taking steps to prevent what happened in one of the links LBB pasted (the one about the dude imitating a reporter)? No, you cannot keep weirdos on the internet from jacking off over pictures of your young female athletes, and you cannot keep those pictures from appearing on the world wide web. But you can help those young women (and young men, as the case in the future may be) prepare themselves for something like this, and are services available for them if they should happen? They're YOUR athletes, so take care of them.
One weird aspect of this story is that no one names the photographer. His (or her) shot fueled this phenomenon, but I couldn't find any mention of the person's name.
The name "Victah Sailer" is watermarked on the new pictures he allegedly granted WithLeather permission to use.
If it's Sailer, this appears to be the page where his now-notorious Stokke photo originally appeared. The photo may be the best-known sports shot he'll ever take. Instead of taking it offline, he should be building his name on it. There's nothing unseemly or inappropriate about the shot.
Yeah, maybe we should make football teams wear the leather helmets with the earflaps, because they're what football players wore back when some old guy was in high school. Come on. Your so-called "normal shorts and a tank top" wouldn't be "normal" any more. That's the point. The football helmets is a bad analogy, those were changed for safety reasons. What added safety does spandex and an exposed midriff give. As far as normal shorts and tank tops go, look at rcades link and then tell me the girls wear exactly what the guys wear.
The football helmets is a bad analogy, those were changed for safety reasons. What added safety does spandex and an exposed midriff give. They don't give added safety; they give added performance, as has already been explained. What does it matter why the uniform was changed as long as the change is functional? As far as normal shorts and tank tops go, look at rcades link and then tell me the girls wear exactly what the guys wear. Who said anything about girls wearing exactly what the guys wear?
They don't give added safety; they give added performance, as has already been explained. So it is better to jump in this, then it is to jump in this? There is not too much of a difference, except the amount of skin being shown. I have a 13 year old that runs track and I can guarantee you oe thing, she will never wear anything like some of the clothes I have seen these kids wear to run track in.
So it is better to jump in this, then it is to jump in this? When you've done half as many vaults as the subject of the thread, get back to me and let me know. I have a 13 year old that runs track and I can guarantee you oe thing, she will never wear anything like some of the clothes I have seen these kids wear to run track in. You could always dress her up like this. And before you accuse me of taking this to extremes, the same argument (about what female, only female, always only female athletes should wear) is taking place in other arenas, and it really only differs in degree.
I have a 13 year old that runs track and I can guarantee you oe thing, she will never wear anything like some of the clothes I have seen these kids wear to run track in. You can raise your child anyway you want and set whatever rules you want. Every parent has to make a decision as to what extent they are going to let pedophiles and perverts dictate the rules for their child. The question here isn't what you would let your child wear, it is whether her clothes were appropriate. She wasn't chosen by the folks at With Leather because of her clothes, she was chosen because she was very attractive. Those guy track clothes would look good on her, too. You can be modest, but you aren't going to stop the leers and ogling.
When you've done half as many vaults as the subject of the thread, get back to me and let me know. Well since you obviously have, why don't you let us know. Oh whats that....you haven't made that many jumps either? Pot or Kettle today? bperk I was not meaning that the guys clothes would look any less attractive an her. However it sure would prevent that description that sounded like something out of the penthouse forum. Instead of this: At 5 feet 7, Stokke has smooth, olive-colored skin and toned muscles. In the photo, her vaulting pole rests on her right shoulder. Her right hand appears to be adjusting the elastic band on her ponytail. Her spandex uniform -- black shorts and a white tank top that are standard for a track athlete -- reveals a bare midriff. All you would have is this: At 5 feet 7, Stokke has smooth, olive-colored skin and toned muscles. In the photo, her vaulting pole rests on her right shoulder. Her right hand appears to be adjusting the elastic band on her ponytail.
Well since you obviously have, why don't you let us know. Oh whats that....you haven't made that many jumps either? Pot or Kettle today? I think you just claimed both titles, jojo -- see, you're not arguing with what I think is appropriate attire, you're arguing with what the athletes think is appropriate attire -- athletes like the aforementioned Stacy Dragila. In so doing, you are not questioning my judgment, but theirs. bperk I was not meaning that the guys clothes would look any less attractive an her. However it sure would prevent that description that sounded like something out of the penthouse forum. Unfortunately, I think that's wishful thinking. The second sentence would still be there -- a little bit different, but there's nothing to stop it from being just as salacious.
If we're going to make this about Alison Stokke, we should also consider that she's part of a generation self-publishing copious photographic and video documentation of their lives on social networks like MySpace and YouTube. In my day, we exchanged information about hot girls through ASCII art. At 300 baud.
she's part of a generation self-publishing copious photographic and video documentation of their lives on social networks It's only part of the talk, but Charlie Stross had a terrific piece on memory and privacy and the future.
In my day, we exchanged information about hot girls through ASCII art. At 300 baud. Over an acoustic coupler! Um, that's some amazing stuff there, rcade.
If you look closely enough, LBB, you can see their colons.
she's part of a generation self-publishing copious photographic and video documentation of their lives on social networks Guys in my age bracket (18-34's UNITE!) have adapted to and embraced this. If you have sufficient nose candy and can grind rhythmically to the new Gwen Stefani joint you are in like Flynn. I think we should stop trying to slow down or halt the decline of western civilization, it is inevitable. I for one welcome our new Asian overlords.
If you look closely enough, LBB, you can see their colons. I could see their semicolons too.
Hermaphrodite, the Greek Goddess of Indecision.
Boy, the old @ had a different role back then, huh? You've come a long way, baby.
Ahhh.......the sweet smell of sexually degrading humor drizzled in political incorrectness. Now I can let my gut out. And rcade, you may be pleased to know that I thoroughly pissed off a female co-worker with your delightful, ASCII vixens.
In my day, we exchanged information about hot girls through ASCII art. At 300 baud. Ahhhhhhhhhh....the good ol' days. Thanks for the flashback, rcade. And rcade, you may be pleased to know that I thoroughly pissed off a female co-worker with your delightful, ASCII vixens. Wow, I see that ASCII art can still offend some people. Almost like it's 1994 all over again.
In my day, we exchanged information about hot girls through ASCII art. At 300 baud. Some people have waaay too much time on their hands.
