FanDuel - WFBC

March 21, 2007

O.J. Mayo: Don't call him, he'll call you: High School star point guard hand-picks college but refuses to give out cell phone number to coach he verbally commits to. How should a coach from a school not renowned for their basketball program react to such a situation? Bonus points: what other athletes exhume as much ego?

posted by PublicUrinal to basketball at 09:49 PM - 145 comments

Although I like the concept of exhuming ego, I think you may have meant "exude." He probably won't give out his cell number until the coach commits to a per-game salary figure.

posted by drjeff at 10:51 PM on March 21

Doc: While you are 100% correct as to my intent, I'll bring out the inner English major and defend my brainfart/diction by reflecting that "exhume" also means to bring to light (even though it most often contextually refers to restoring after a period of neglect -- in O.J.'s case, a bold assertion).

posted by PublicUrinal at 11:06 PM on March 21

Deadspin found a clip of Mayo's last high school game, in which he threw the ball off the backboard, dunked it, then tossed it into the crowd, got a technical, was ejected, and celebrated with his teammates and coach as he walked off with a minute left in the game. I can't decide whether I am leaning toward the "great panache" or the "low class" necessary overreaction.

posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 07:26 AM on March 22

O.J. Mayo is the real deal. This kid is a 6'5" point gaurd that can totally destroy the game and I mean that in a good way. The future of the NBA looks extremely bright with future NBAer's like Greg Oden, Kevin Durant, Joakim Noah and eventually, O.J Mayo coming into the league. This guy knows exactly what he intends to do with his skills & talent, let's just hope he doesn't think that he's bigger than the game itself. No one is.

posted by BornIcon at 07:37 AM on March 22

I don't know whether I like or dislike Mayo for all of this ego, but he's definitely got world-class game in the PR department. That crowd in his final prep game was fired up; it's a good thing he hasn't used his powers to start an army of death commandos. The story of how Floyd got Mayo is hilarious.

posted by rcade at 07:46 AM on March 22

I think Floyd's reaction was pretty reasonable. And really... this is what we get for allowing kids to take one-year vacations in college. The NBA's rule should be like MLB's- forcing kids to spend just one year in college does no favors to the college game, and does very little for the NBA. (They do get better marketing for kids like Durant, but it won't help them avoid busts.)

posted by tieguy at 08:30 AM on March 22

The NBA's rule should be like MLB's- forcing kids to spend just one year in college does no favors to the college game, and does very little for the NBA. The NBA rules are nothing more than monetarily driven. I suspect they want to see if a kid is worth the money by watching them play a year in college. At the age of 18, you can be legally asked to leave your home as well as enlist in the military. But you can't play professional basketball until your 19. Ridiculous in my opinion. I have nothing against players leaving college early for the NBA. I support their desire to support themselves and use their skills and ability to earn a living. For too long, college basketball, and football too, have been using these young kids to make lots of cash. For the purists who want to argue they are getting a free education, maybe so, but the amount of money they generate far exceeds the cost of an education. You certainly do not need a formal education to lead an enriched life.

posted by danjel at 08:47 AM on March 22

(I should add that I respect the kid for taking maximum advantage of the situation- he seems to have thought this through fairly well, and controlled a situation which exploits a lot of other kids. Not his fault the pretense of amateurism and student-athleticism is a complete farce.)

posted by tieguy at 08:48 AM on March 22

I absolutely love this story. "How many scholarships do we have? Don't worry about recruiting." I don't see why this reflects poorly on Mayo. He knows what he wants, so he goes after it. He is a great enough basketball player that he gets to pick his program - not the other way around. He hasn't wavered in his committment. I don't think ego is a bad thing until it translates into something really ugly. Apparently, his ego isn't something that upsets team chemistry because his coach and teammates are celebrating his dunk with him.

posted by bperk at 08:48 AM on March 22

Great story, and if he spends one year out there and lifts the program (although it sounds like he already has), good for him. For those interested, bugmenot says: U: klausnyt6 P: ciaociao

posted by wfrazerjr at 09:04 AM on March 22

Treat people like shit, and it comes back to haunt you. What are his prospects if he blows out his knee? How many people will return his calls then?

posted by drumdance at 09:33 AM on March 22

Treat people like shit, and it comes back to haunt you. What are his prospects if he blows out his knee? How many people will return his calls then? True indeed but that's only IF that were to happen. The same could've been said about LeBron James when all the hype was following him around while he was attending St. Mary's in Akron, Ohio. Like I said in my last post, "....let's just hope he doesn't think that he's bigger than the game itself", but from what's being said about O.J., he seems to have a drive within himself that hasn't been seen by an athlete in quite some time and he'll excell in the NBA, let alone college. College ball seems to be like the minor leagues for the NBA and if the one-year rule is in effect, let the kid do his one year in college like Greg Oden and Kevin Durant and watch out for 2009. The year of Mayo! Just watch!!

posted by BornIcon at 09:47 AM on March 22

Apparently, his ego isn't something that upsets team chemistry because his coach and teammates are celebrating his dunk with him. That's because they won the game by 40-someodd points! Ego never affects team chemistry when you're winning (see T.O.) Ego affects team chemestry when you're losing (see T.O.) The reason you should be cautious about a guy like this is the exact same reason people should be cautious about adding a T.O. to your team. Sure he's a great talent and will help you win games. But you better HOPE you win a lot of games, because the second you start losing is when that "chemistry" takes a hit. I can guarantee there will be press conferences with this guy after they lose some games where he talks about the coaches, talks about the other players, and just does a lot of finger pointing. At that point it will become that distraction that can shatter teams and do more harm than his talent ever did good (see Eagles). Treat people like shit, and it comes back to haunt you. I don't believe that for a second. There is no glowing karma, ying-yang, or even God doesn't met out this type of balance. There are plenty of people who treat others like shit that live a long and prosperous life. There are many nice human beings who live a miserable existance.

posted by bdaddy at 09:56 AM on March 22

OJ Mayo hasn't exhibited any TO like tendencies. TO was always disgruntled whether they won or not based on how many times he touched the ball. You would be hard-pressed to find many NBA players without an inflated sense of self. It is almost a prerequisitie to play at the level to believe you are the best or one of the best. A player can't be thinking "I hope Kobe doesn't make me look stupid. I can't play at the same level as him."

posted by bperk at 10:15 AM on March 22

The future of the NBA looks extremely bright with future NBAer's like Greg Oden, Kevin Durant, Joakim Noah I was with you until #3. I don't see Noah as a force in the NBA. He's Shane Battier redux. defend my brainfart/diction by reflecting that "exhume" also means . . . I can dig it.

posted by yerfatma at 10:17 AM on March 22

I just read something that compared Mayo to Stephon Marbury. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

posted by ajaffe at 10:21 AM on March 22

You would be hard-pressed to find many NBA players without an inflated sense of self. Having an inflated sense of self and being humble are two very different things. You can have a player that thinks he is better than any holy power but is still willing to accept both blame and credit. True leaders of a team should call out teammates inside the locker room - while acknowledging their own faults - and accept all blame outside of it. Being humble doesn't require you to not believe you're the greatest, but rather accepting that even the greatest have their occasional faults. My concern really is inside that locker room. A lot of players will feel belittled by O.J.'s "I'll take care of everything" attitude, though I'm sure others could feed off of it ("I can just play my game and if it's not working out one day, O.J. has my back"). And as noted, winning and losing changes lots of things. This notion of holier-than-my-coach could easily become an issue quickly, though. By allowing O.J. to take the sort of control he has, Floyd risks a Pandora's box when he decides to sit O.J. after a bad performance or something of the sort. I don't see Noah as a force in the NBA. I'm a Gator fan and I could not agree any more. His shooting is just way too awful for him to a force, and it's really aggravated by poor technique. If he can turn that around and become stronger, he could do alright. But more likely, he's a doomed to be a Mark Madsen with better hands and defensive intensity.

posted by PublicUrinal at 10:45 AM on March 22

I was with you until #3. I don't see Noah as a force in the NBA. He's Shane Battier redux Sorry but I stand by what I said. Joakim Noah seems to turn it up a notch when the scenerio becomes tense and during the playoffs, seems to be the guy that the team turns to, he just needs to put on some weight and work on his jumper. True, he may not put up the numbers that Durant or Oden can put up but the kid can ball. If he would've opted out and went into the draft last year, he would've been the top pick or at the very least, in the top 3. Instead, he decides to stay for one more year at Florida just like Glen Davis did for LSU. I just read something that compared Mayo to Stephon Marbury Maybe 'Starbury' from 5 years ago but not the latest Knicks version of him. Mayo is taller, more physical and is a better all-around basketball player than Stephon could ever be, no comparison.

posted by BornIcon at 10:49 AM on March 22

Somebody better be pretty sure you want someone like Mayo representing your university. He has already shown some tendencies that are not what a university basketball program needs. There is no questioning his abilities but he needs a lot of growing up to do. Class he doesn't have and if he keeps up this type of behavior it will come back to bite him in the butt. He is beginning to sound like the kid from Ohio State a few years ago that thought to much of himself and look were he ended up......

posted by ucla512 at 10:49 AM on March 22

My first point is WHO says Oden and Durant are leaving school this year? From all I've heard this week there is a good chance Durant will stay, and a very good chance Oden will stay, at least 1 more year. As I've said in the past, the scholarship athlete knows what his deal is before he signs that letter of intent, everything is up front. I don't think this contention that he/she is taken advantage of holds any water regardless of the money the university makes selling the athletes jersey. Maybe my memory is no good but I don't remember LeBron being so cocky. What has college sports come to when a 17 year old kid can intimidate a major college coach/program, regardless of the schools history in that sport? Hasn't college always been the NBA minor league? As for Mr. Mayo's ability. He is competeing with 175 pound juniors and seniors in high school. In most cases the difference between a senior in high school and a freshman in a major college program are gigantic. I would like to see him take the ball to the hoop against an NBA center, or a top flight college center. I guess I've said enough. By he way there is a player in Indianapolis that is as good or better than Mayo, that being Eric Gordon at Indpls. North Central.

posted by sportnut at 10:50 AM on March 22

There is no glowing karma, ying-yang, or even God doesn't met out this type of balance. I don't believe in karama or retribution from God. In fact, I'm an atheist. But when you treat people like shit, it's an indication of your character, and the more people you piss off, the greater the odds that, in your hour of need, you'll be SOL. How many people are lining up to help Mike Tyson these days? Or that guy from Friday Night Lights? He was pretty hot shit in high school until he blew out his knee. Of course there are shitty people who live happy lives, but the odds are against it because we are social creatures who live in something called a society.

posted by drumdance at 10:54 AM on March 22

There are a few things that I have to disagee with you on, sportnut. First off, where does it say that O.J. Mayo intimidated a major college coach and/or a program? Secondly, LeBron James was also playing against "175 pound juniors and seniors in high school" before coming to the NBA because well, THEY'RE IN HIGH SCHOOL. You also mentioned Eric Gordon from N. Central High School. Gordon is an undersized SG (6'3") who can in fact, shoot the lights out but his down fall is that the kid isn't a strong passer and his rebounding need lots of work. As a SG, you have to be able to create your own shot, which this kid can't really do right now, he's more of an athletic 3-point threat that can shoot off the dribble. Comparing Mayo to Gordon is like comparing LeBron to Carmelo, they're both good in their own right but we all know who the better player is, now don't we?

posted by BornIcon at 11:35 AM on March 22

By allowing O.J. to take the sort of control he has, Floyd risks a Pandora's box when he decides to sit O.J. after a bad performance or something of the sort. Highly ranked recruits often help out with recruiting. They call the other recruits to sell them on what a good team they will have. Myron Rolle did it last year for FSU in football. The difference is just magnified in this situation because the addition of Mayo changes the entire level of recruit that USC can hope to get. Instead of looking at people who UCLA didn't want, they have a chance to compete for the same recruits. Floyd coached in the NBA, I think he can handle Mayo. It will still his job to meld this diverse group of players into a team, and I haven't read anything about Mayo that indicates he is a problem. Maybe my memory is no good but I don't remember LeBron being so cocky. LeBron didn't have to worry about college. And, your memory must really be rusty. LeBron petitioned to join the NBA as a high school junior and surely you didn't forget about the Hummer. LeBron probably had more controversy surrounding him than O.J. None of it mattered, he still is a great player in the NBA.

posted by bperk at 12:06 PM on March 22

Simmons nails it on Noah and Battier:

Q: This is what you wrote about Joakim Noah in your most recent blog: "He's a winner, he's always in the right place at the right time, he always makes the right decision on either end, he doesn't care about stats, he's immensely fun to play with and he makes 5-6 important plays per game that will not be reflected in the stats." Couldn't that exact, I mean EXACT, same thing have been said about Shane Battier in 2001? Do you still think Noah should be a top-four pick knowing that? --Neil A. Johnson, Peoria, Ill. SG: Hell yeah! What's wrong with Shane Battier? Is he not having a big enough impact on Houston's season for you? He's the most underrated Intangibles Guy in the entire league -- you can't measure him by stats, you can only measure him by watching the games and seeing all the little things he does from game to game. And he's a fantastic locker room guy. That's why I was such a big proponent of the Battier-for-Gay/Swift trade last summer. If you did the 2001 Draft over again (which was seriously loaded, by the way) and every team got a do-over for its pick, here's how the top 11 would go: 1. Wash -- Gilbert Arenas (No. 30 originally) 2. Clips -- Pau Gasol (3) 3. Atlanta -- Tony Parker (28) 4. Chicago -- Joe Johnson (10) 5. G-State -- Mehmet Okur (37) 6. Grizz -- Zach Randolph (19) 7. Jersey -- Eddy Curry (4) 8. Cleveland -- Shane Battier (6) 9. Detroit -- Jason Richardson (5) 10. Boston -- Gerald Wallace (25) 11. Boston -- Richard Jefferson (13) So let's say Noah evolves into a more talented, big man's version of Battier ... why would this be a bad thing?

posted by tieguy at 12:49 PM on March 22

I think all you guys are to young to remember CHocolate thunder when he came out of high school and played inthe NBA. He really is the only successful big man to go from high school to the pros. Everyone is saying he is playing against 17 and 18 year olds, and trust me Mayo cannot and will not be able to do to the pros what he is doing to the high school players. And the only controversy surrounding Mayo is his attitude. Big time and if what everyone is saying about him then Floyd won't be able to handle him. Basketball under FLoyd is TEAMWORK and Mayo doesn't seem to act within that type of framework if he is already telling coaches what they can do and can't do. The word spoiled brat comes to mind. Just watch him o n the court. Ability yes, able to make others better only time will tell. The NBA already has enough primadonnas on with the fat guy and little hood and yes the want to be fighter and wife beater on the Kings.

posted by ucla512 at 01:16 PM on March 22

If the kid is a lemon, I wonder how he'll compare to these grapes.

posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 01:39 PM on March 22

let's just hope he doesn't think that he's bigger than the game itself. No one is. I have no opinion either way on this kid, but Bornicon, that train seems to have left the station a long time ago.

posted by chicobangs at 01:39 PM on March 22

And the only controversy surrounding Mayo is his attitude. Big time and if what everyone is saying about him then Floyd won't be able to handle him. Basketball under FLoyd is TEAMWORK and Mayo doesn't seem to act within that type of framework if he is already telling coaches what they can do and can't do. Where are you getting your information? What attitude problem? When did he tell coaches what to do? When has he demonstrated that he is incapable of teamwork? One of his qualities that scouts talk about is his unselfish play.

posted by bperk at 01:39 PM on March 22

ucla512, you just lost me completely since you just seemed to ramble on with unreadable nonsense towards the end. Your statement that O.J. Mayo won't be able to do what he's done in high school and continue doing the same things in the NBA is ridiculous at best. "Everyone" said the same thing about LeBron James before he became the dominant force he is today, that he won't be able to dunk over people and how he couldn't take over a game in the NBA like he did in high school. I wonder how "everyone" feels about those statements these days? Crow anyone? Mayo has been added to the 2007 Jordan All-Star Classic along with Eric Gordon (that's for you sportnut, no thanks needed) so I would think that some in the NBA that know a lot more than we do, thinks this kid is a special player, an elite player at that. I have no opinion either way on this kid, but Bornicon, that train seems to have left the station a long time ago Nice use of a cliche' chico but you know that Mayo thinks he bigger than the game by what information?

posted by BornIcon at 01:49 PM on March 22

My first point is WHO says Oden and Durant are leaving school this year? A number of dead presidents. So let's say Noah evolves into a more talented, big man's version of Battier ... why would this be a bad thing? I dunno. I just don't see either as the player you build a franchise around.

posted by yerfatma at 02:08 PM on March 22

Somebody better be pretty sure you want someone like Mayo representing your university. He has already shown some tendencies that are not what a university basketball program needs. Regarless of his behavior, Mayo will bring to USC what they need, along with the needs of all schools, $$$$$$ and tv exposure. Why all this debate about the guys character? I haven't seen so many claiming they can predict the future here in a long time. Ease up and give the kid a chance. I doubt any of you would not give him a scholarship if you were the coach.

posted by danjel at 02:37 PM on March 22

What behavior? Why do people keep posting about his attitude and behavior without ever being specific what they are talking about?

posted by bperk at 02:42 PM on March 22

Bornicon, Mayo's ability is without question some of the best. He looks on the floor to be in better control of his game then James was coming out of high school. It isn't his ability that has been put in question, but character is something that with this attitude seems to be missing at this point. And as far as these so called All-Star games are concerned not all the best high school kids are playing in these games. You must know how political all that has become. By his whole attitude Mayo is putting himself, in a way, that he is bigger than the game. What high school tells major university coaches what to do and quote "I will call you" . If he does have this kind of attitude than no matter who coaches him there is going to be some very large problems. Talent wise I think he brings more to the table than James did because is a far better shooter than James was. But you can't really compare apples to oranges anymore than we can compare Elgin Baylor to Jordan. When he finally plays the cream will rise to the top or go bad and turn sour.

posted by ucla512 at 02:45 PM on March 22

If one wants a product or behavior to expand, then support it with subsidies of money or emotional strokes or whatever. If one wants a product or behavior to go away, then tax it, or punish it or ignore it or other to discourage it. I do not feel the world needs another prima donna. I have seen coaches bench, suspend or othewise curtail star players who thought they "ran things". I say let him slowly twist in the wind. Piscator

posted by Fly_Piscator at 02:46 PM on March 22

Mayo's bad behavior is telling Floyd that he would call him instead of giving him his number? This is the bad attitude that is going to doom his future because he is making himself bigger than the game? This is the whole extent of his bad behavior that is causing such enlightened folks as Piscator to declare that Mayo is just another prima donna? Are you guys serious?

posted by bperk at 02:50 PM on March 22

yerfatma... Good call on Noah, I thought the same thing reading through those names. A probable solid pro, but he belongs nowhere near those other names. The whole "I will call you" thing. Forget for a moment that this isn't the way it's always been done, and then... what's wrong with it? The harrassment these kids must endure... why not take a stand? Is his assumption that all schools would be interested false? Power to the people... a bad thing?

posted by 2 time mvp of the shittiest team ever at 02:59 PM on March 22

Look, if you're making carnival dunks in midgame and then throwing the ball in the stands, I would say that that's a sign that you believe you are larger than the game. I never said he wasn't insanely talented. I was saying that talent is only one in a long list of things one needs to get to the top of the sports world, and I've seen too many people miss that crucial point to get caught up in the hubris of a kid who thinks giving his coach his contact information is somehow beneath him. (2timemvp, I somehow doubt "taking a stand" is what he had in mind. But like all of this, I could easily be wrong.) OJ Mayo might easily be the next Bill Russell or Shane Battier. But unless someone brings him back to earth a little bit, he could also become the next, oh, Maurice Clarett.

posted by chicobangs at 03:32 PM on March 22

Highly ranked recruits often help out with recruiting. They call the other recruits to sell them on what a good team they will have. Myron Rolle did it last year for FSU in football. The difference is just magnified in this situation because the addition of Mayo changes the entire level of recruit that USC can hope to get. No, the difference is that Mayo told the coach directly "don't worry about recruiting". What behavior? Why do people keep posting about his attitude and behavior without ever being specific what they are talking about? Not giving your coach your cellphone number. Telling the coach "don't worry about recruiting". Get charged with Marijuana possession. Throw a lob pass to yourself, slam dunk it, throw it in the crowd, and get T-ed up in the process, all with a 40-something point lead. Throw an elbow at the other team's player, getting t-ed up, then marching across the court to chestbump the ref and then getting ejected. Hire an attorney for said infraction and obtain a injunction prohibiting the enforcement of sanctions, then have him negotiate your suspension. And he's only 17 years old.

posted by bdaddy at 03:36 PM on March 22

bdaddy, You just hit the nail on the head with your comments. If he shows this much indifference to his own players and the ref's what the hell is he going to be like at 18 19 20 and as far as the pros go Look no further then Attest. The fact that he did all those things(behavior problems during the game) throwing elbows, ref authority , coaches authority, what else has to happen to finally find out about him. His attitude and behavior, being specific, is what has happened in his last few games and all-star appearances...No 17 year is has done enough to merit not getting into line with the programs and rules and regulations of life. This kid, and a 17 year old is a kid, maybe really a great individual and some of this maybe way out of line because we don't know him. But his last impressions on the court leave much to be desired. All we can do is hope for the best and wish him well and good luck. It still looks to everyone outside that something is going on with him. What a waste of talent if he ends up in trouble and causes any problems for himself or his family.

posted by ucla512 at 03:58 PM on March 22

and I might add, none of those incidents seperately mean anything...but taken together, you certainly can start to paint a picture of the man

posted by bdaddy at 03:59 PM on March 22

Not giving your coach your cellphone number. I don't blame him. Those recruiting calls are ridiculous, and if you have your mind made up, completely unnecessary. And, to construe that in the worst possible light without having any idea why he did that doesn't seem to make much sense. Telling the coach "don't worry about recruiting". Because I can help us get the #2 ranked recruiting class in the country. Yeah, you're right, what bullshit! If a scrappy, hard-working, All-American kid did this, he would be showing initiative. Was charged with Marijuana possession. And the charges were dropped. What does that prove about his character? Throw a lob pass to yourself, slam dunk it, throw it in the crowd, and get T-ed up in the process, all with a 40-something point lead. Yeah, and his coaches and teammates and fans go wild! It looks like this high school kid still thinks that he should be enjoying basketball. Definitely wouldn't want that attitude on my team! Throw an elbow at the other team's player, getting t-ed up, then marching across the court to chestbump the ref and then getting ejected. Hire an attorney for said infraction and obtain a injunction prohibiting the enforcement of sanctions, then have him negotiate your suspension. What elbow? You made that up. He got a technical for dunking then catching the ball afterwards. He didn't even touch the referee or if he did he barely touched him from behind. In addition, five other kids who were on the bench had an attorney, too. Anyway, OJ served a suspension and said it was "fair", so what is the problem? You need to read up on this if you want to talk about it. And, you are right. He is only 17 years old. You act like every perceived bad act is a precursor of things to come instead of just a teenager being a teenager. I wonder why that is?

posted by bperk at 04:03 PM on March 22

and I might add, none of those incidents seperately mean anything...but taken together, you certainly can start to paint a picture of the man No, you get a better picture of the kind of bullshit that he has to deal with and the people who are more than willing to put together a few, minor unrelated incidents together to make him out to be someone that he isn't.

posted by bperk at 04:13 PM on March 22

So he's a cocky dick (warning: may be redundant). Nothing like a little NBA schooling to knock a cat down a peg or two. If he's the real deal, we'll see it soon enough. Let's not hang a 17-year old kid because he's acting like a spoiled princess - that's likely the way he's being treated. One thing is for sure. He's knows drama.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 04:18 PM on March 22

What elbow? You made that up. You need to read up on this if you want to talk about it. bullshit don't accuse me of making up stuff just because you've never seen it. You should watch the actual video before you start talking about it. He didn't even touch the referee or if he did he barely touched him from behind. watch the video before talking out of your ass. He didn't get a 3 game suspension for not touching the referee. No, you get a better picture of the kind of bullshit that he has to deal with and the people who are more than willing to put together a few, minor unrelated incidents together to make him out to be someone that he isn't. yea, right. And we can't tell what type of person PacMan Jones is either, based on all his minor, unrelated incidents. Besides, you asked for examples. I list out those examples, then you start bitching a moaning that they're all minor and unrelated. I guess I could have put he killed puppies or raped his niece, and you'd still think it doesn't paint a picture of the man. I, for one, happen to believe a man's actions demonstrate the man himself. (and no, before you jump on that little tangent..I don't think what he's done equates to him killing puppies or raping his niece)

posted by bdaddy at 04:38 PM on March 22

"An aire of entitlement".... that's the phrase I couldn't remember 3 hours ago..... If a school detects such an aire, then they ought to pass on the candidate. Just because an athlete THINKS he ought to be accepted at a school, does not mean he has such an aire... but other behavior like telling the coach what to do... begins to confirm it.. Piscator

posted by Fly_Piscator at 04:49 PM on March 22

Dude - you're name appears beneath your post. No need to 'sign off' with it. Huge Cock

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 05:01 PM on March 22

don't accuse me of making up stuff just because you've never seen it. You should watch the actual video before you start talking about it. First of all, the elbow that it shows in the video was him getting hit by someone else's elbow, not the other way around. Finally, that shoving the ref part is bullshit. Why is it suddenly so blurry? They showed a much better video from Deadspin (with a title "Mayo can shove refs with his mind") that is no longer available that was clear and didn't show any of that shit. Here's the info from TrueHoop. There was none of that blurred huge push in the video that was circulating from youtube. It was on deadspin, the NYTimes article talked about, there wasn't even hardly any contact. I'm sure you saw the original video that was circulating and that definitely wasn't it. Mayo got suspended for making contact with an official and he got an automatic two game suspension for getting two technicals. Besides, you asked for examples. I list out those examples, then you start bitching a moaning that they're all minor and unrelated. I guess I could have put he killed puppies or raped his niece, and you'd still think it doesn't paint a picture of the man. I, for one, happen to believe a man's actions demonstrate the man himself. Yeah, I asked for examples of his bad attitude and his thinking that he is above the game. You gave me about what I expected, a bunch of crap that wouldn't amount to a hill of beans if it was some scrappy, hard-working, All-American kid. And, furthermore, he isn't a man. He's a teenager. He isn't even out of high school yet, so give me a break about a man's character.

posted by bperk at 05:06 PM on March 22

You know, for a kid who I'd never heard of before this thread, there seem to be a lot of people who are awful passionate fans of his. Again: no judgement. Just making a note.

posted by chicobangs at 06:03 PM on March 22

bdaddy, thanks for some real reasons to be thinking that mayo has an attitude problem. . . I was starting to wonder if there was any. That being said, i'm not sure if all those things happened just like you said; i'd have to do my own reading. A couple of things i'm confident about here: 1) The predictions need to stop. There is just simply NO WAY to know whether he will pan out in the NBA, or even in college. He probably will, but using words of certainty like "i garuntee you that . . ." is simply wasting time, b/c you can't. 2) The dunk was pretty lame. Not lame in the athletic sense (it was amazing), but it came off as pretty arrogant to me. When you are up by 40+ points, what are you trying to accomplish with that dunk? To say that he "did it for the fans," looks like a pretty lame excuse to me. I can't know for sure, but it looked to me tht he did want to showboat. One thing i'm kinda curious to see what others here think about: Is mayo really better than every other recruit for next year?

posted by brainofdtrain at 06:06 PM on March 22

Dude - you're name appears beneath your post. No need to 'sign off' with it. Huge Cock That's priceless, you the man.

posted by louisville_slugger at 06:07 PM on March 22

bperk, thanks also for justifying my concern to not jump to conclusions too quickly. Man i need to finish my posts sooner.

posted by brainofdtrain at 06:11 PM on March 22

From reading everything here I've come up with two things. 1) Mayo is a great basketball player 2) He is a real asshole

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 06:12 PM on March 22

Chico, this kid has been a sensation for roughly a year now. As i hope that my above hyperlink will show, there is good reason for the excitement, but it is interesting how someone like Michael Beasley isn't getting hyped more. The media have jumped on Mayo, and so he viewed as "undoubtedly" the best, which i think is pretty premature, especially if recruiting experts don't unanimously think so.

posted by brainofdtrain at 06:14 PM on March 22

2) The dunk was pretty lame. Not lame in the athletic sense (it was amazing), but it came off as pretty arrogant to me. When you are up by 40+ points, what are you trying to accomplish with that dunk? To say that he "did it for the fans," looks like a pretty lame excuse to me. I can't know for sure, but it looked to me tht he did want to showboat. I am surely speculating here but I tend to think the "dunk" was a premeditated move. I don't think he had that particular dunk in mind but was looking for an opportunity during the game to create some hype. It certainly has created hype here. He appears to have a desire to market himself prior to the NBA and this might have been just another strategy for some recognition.

posted by danjel at 06:41 PM on March 22

2) He is a real asshole posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 6:12 PM CST on March 22 I have said that about alot of teenagers because they basically think about themselves and what is in it for them. No one in here really knows his reasoning for anything.

posted by skydivemom at 06:48 PM on March 22

If he's already committed,what does the coach need to keep calling him for?excessive calls got Kelvin Sampson ran-off from Oklahoma.and how about the kid with the $500 cell phone bill from all the text messages he was getting?there is no need for Floyd,or any other coach to have this kid's number.let the kid be.

posted by mars1 at 06:55 PM on March 22

Dude - you're name appears beneath your post. No need to 'sign off' with it. Huge Cock Weedy, you're beautiful, man. Tiny Penis

posted by tommytrump at 06:57 PM on March 22

You know, for a kid who I'd never heard of before this thread, there seem to be a lot of people who are awful passionate fans of his. I'm not a huge fan. I think he is has a great chance of being a star some day. What is making me post repeatedly is that people are judging him far more harshly than any of his actions deserve. This article, a questionable bump of a referee and a huge dunk in his last game makes a teenager a cocky dick, an asshole, someone who treats people like shit, will ruin team chemistry and believes he is bigger than the game? Give me a freakin' break. People have already made up their mind about him and all that they know is he is a black kid who has the hype machine behind him and picked his college rather than let college pick him. It's bullshit. Where's bishop when you need him?

posted by bperk at 07:08 PM on March 22

If he shows this much indifference to his own players and the ref's what the hell is he going to be like at 18 19 20 and as far as the pros go ... One unsportsmanlike dunk and a misdemeanor pot charge -- later dropped -- and you're treating the kid like a gangsta. That's totally bogus. There's no reason to believe he's going to be trouble for anybody in college or the pros.

posted by rcade at 07:52 PM on March 22

Where's bishop when you need him? Once Mayo gets shot, arrested for something or other, and/or gets involved in an on-court melee he will show up. As for Mayo, he seems to me like a guy who is good and knows it. He doesn't really come across as a humble sort of person.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 07:53 PM on March 22

Several people in this forum have not had recent interactions with 17 year olds.

posted by DudeDykstra at 08:51 PM on March 22

Really now - does not being humble make you a terrible person? So what if he is good and he knows it. How does that make him any different than alot of people who succeed at what they do. Being confident or arrogant can really begin to blur sometimes.

posted by skydivemom at 09:02 PM on March 22

No one in here really knows his reasoning for anything. I'm betting on world peace.

posted by forrestv at 02:35 AM on March 23

A lot of people who succeed at what they do are not looking at a million dollar NBA contract down the line. A lot of people don't have thousands or millions of people watching them with that number only increasing as he gets older.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 05:39 AM on March 23

yea, right. And we can't tell what type of person PacMan Jones is either, based on all his minor, unrelated incidents Dude, there's nothing 'minor' about Pacman Jones' run-ins with law enforcement. He's been in situations where someone was shot and is now paralyzed (although he wasn't the shooter, he was still around this situation). Tell me, how does that equate to anything O.J. Mayo has done? You know, for a kid who I'd never heard of before this thread, there seem to be a lot of people who are awful passionate fans of his Just because you never heard of O.J. Mayo or Eric Gordon or even Michael Beasley for that matter, does that make these kids any less talented? All you have to do, if you're actually interested, is go to Scout.com and you can find all the information you want on any future prospect coming out of high school. There are many kids that'll be the future of the NBA that many of us haven't even heard of but some others may have. With the use of the internet, there are many ways to find what your looking for. As far as the 'elbow incident' (the other kid bumped into O.J.) that translated into the ref falling to the floor after the "mysterious" shove, give me a break! O.J. Mayo walked behind the official and made minor contact with the ref (the ref's sholder made contact with O.J.'s chest) and the ref made a flop that Vlad Divac would've envied. It's just dumbfounding to have an official display such erratic behavior and for everyone to make this kid out to be the devil reincarnated when he was unjustly given a technical in the first place, is outlandish. If this kid believes in himself and believes that he has the talent that no one else has, so what? Does that make him arrogant or confident? Is he an asshole or just a 17 year old star basketball player? Apparently, many people have already made up their minds without even knowing one thing about these kids (or is it just O.J.? Maybe it's his name people hate). So if confidence makes you an asshole, I guess that's why people hate on A-Rod, Bonds, Kobe, Shaq or Tiger? Or is it that they're just a notch above the competition?

posted by BornIcon at 07:22 AM on March 23

Damn near everybody on this site has been an arrogant prick of a teenager who knew it all and felt the world owed them. Luckily, most of us outgrew it. I can't pass judgement on a kid who acts like a punk until he grows up to be an adult who acts like a punk, so I'll give Mayo the benefit of the doubt for a few years, and humbly suggest that you do, too. Of course, if you want to hate him now, fuck it, no skin off my nose.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 07:29 AM on March 23

Bornicon, you cut out the phrase immediately following the one you railed against, where I freely admitted my ignorance on the matter and merely said what I said because I found this thread interesting. I didn't go to a US high school, and even my own parents never defended me this much to anyone, let alone a stranger on a chat board, about anything I ever did, which is why I find this thread so interesting. I'm sorry I offended you by asking the question, but -- it was a question, not an attack. Jeezus. I'm sorry I opened my mouth.

posted by chicobangs at 07:53 AM on March 23

Chico, you don't have to apologize to me since I'm not defending anyone. In conversations where differences of opinions are bound to be raised, there will be pros vs. cons as it is in this case. Why would I be offended by anything that was said about a kid I don't even know on a personal level? Where did I say I was offended? I didn't know that someone would would be so sensitive about me trying to offer up a little information that maybe wasn't known in the first place. Can I ask you a question though? What does going to a US high school have to do your parents defending you? I just found that interesting. Anyways, I didn't think or say that you attacked me, I was simply responding. No harm, no foul. BTW, I wasn't the only one that responded to your judgement call but you point me out, why is that?

posted by BornIcon at 08:37 AM on March 23

The kid's obviously a huge talent, and, in our society, he has every right to demonstrate a gigantic ego. We make these athletes into gods at a younger and younger age, then heap millions upon billions of dollars on them before they usually reach the age of 20. He'll live a life all of us, practically, will never, ever know. We created the monster (professional sports), so either ignore it or get out of the way. It could only happen, to this level, in the U.S. of A. I wish him luck and hopefully he handles his fame responsibly.

posted by dyams at 09:15 AM on March 23

First of all I want to commend UCLA512, an Tieguy on their comments. Next , I don't hold OJ responsible for his cocky attitude(confidence), it is the people he has had around him since he was a toddler that have filled his head with crap, and made zero attempt to develop his character. And finally, he is just 17 or 18 and has not matured in many ways, I think that is natural. He should get the benefit of the doubt. I don't mean to get on my soap box but what is wrong with an athlete who is humble and respects rules, as well as recognizing that basketball is a team sport. Example; Marvin Harrison (SUPERBOWL WINNER) compared to Randy Moss Barry Sanders compared to Joey Porter Shane Battier compared to any number of NBA players etc,etc... Please don't get me wrong every player has a different approach to the game, some are aggresive and some are passive, I guess it is what matches the individuals personality. And lastly, what is wrong with the All American Athlete, I hear some of you that contribute, talking like it is a bad thing to be a low key successful college or professional athlete. OH, By the way Tony Dungy and Lovie Smith are two of the most low key and humble personalities in all sports, that have acheived very high levels of success. You might add Jim Leland and Greg Oden to this list also. Sports are in big trouble if Tony and Lovie are unique and not the norm.

posted by sportnut at 09:43 AM on March 23

"OH, By the way Tony Dungy... is one ...of the most low key and humble personalities in all sports" This is an excerpt from an article in today's SI.com: Tony Dungy caused a stir Tuesday when he accepted the "Friend of Family" award from the conservative Indiana Family Institute. "Tony Dungy is a deeply religious man who puts his faith first in his life, even above family and football. So his support of a proposed gay-marriage ban likely surprised few." Some in the gay community disagreed. Bil Browning, who runs bilerico.com, a blog that focuses on gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender issues, wrote: "When the head coach publicly states that part of the Colts fan base should be second-class citizens, you can't expect those same fans to support the team." Not a knock to you or Coach Dungy but yeah, real low key.

posted by BornIcon at 10:07 AM on March 23

I don't understand why people love athletes to be modest and humble. I prefer athletes with some swagger. It makes sports larger than life. Give me Jordan and Favre and that ilk over a self-effacing modest athlete.

posted by bperk at 10:23 AM on March 23

I don't understand why people love athletes to be modest and humble. I prefer athletes with some swagger. It makes sports larger than life. Give me Jordan and Favre and that ilk over a self-effacing modest athlete. I agree. I like confidence and bravado in an athlete, as long as they've backed it up with the skills and results at the highest level. The best example I can think of is Rickey Henderson. He said he was the greatest (base stealer) of all time because, gosh darn it, he was the greatest. There ain't nothing wrong with that. If O.J. Mayo dominates during his one year in college, and then performs as well as Bryant and James have when they joined the NBA, then he can swagger all he wants.

posted by grum@work at 11:20 AM on March 23

I don't mind cockiness, as long as it is backed up with results. Like Larry Bird arriving at the inaugural 3-point competition, looking around the locker room and saying "I'm just looking around to see who's gonna finish up second."

posted by Venicemenace at 11:47 AM on March 23

OK I give up, I'm just old fashioned to think that allot of athletes of today are making the most of their media attention to acheive notority instead of performing on the playinging field / court to gain that notority. I have no problem with the swagger that Bird, Henderson, or MJ brought to the table, but it seems that todays athlete is putting things ass backward. They shoot their big mouth off before they perform. None of the above did it that way. There aren't to many modern day athletes that could carry the shoes of Oscar ,Bird ,MJ, Henderson, Ted Williams, etc,etc,etc. I don't know if many would agree with me but I think the actual talent in sports in general is being depleted by all this attention in the media bull shit. Let the athletes play the games and shut up. By the way it is not just the athletes shooting off their mouths, now the owners have gotten into the show, aka Mark Cuban. Is self ego more important than the game itself? Sorry for being so old fashioned. Why do you think there are so many modern day athletes that can talk the talk but can't walk the walk.

posted by sportnut at 12:41 PM on March 23

I agree. I like confidence and bravado in an athlete, as long as they've backed it up with the skills and results at the highest level. Deion Sanders at Florida State is legendary. He arrived to a home game in a limousine wearing a tuxedo. He couldn't back it up at the highest level until he got there. But, he was a special player in college at the time and would eventually be one in the NFL. I am not so sure that swagger is something that guys develop in the pros.

posted by bperk at 01:37 PM on March 23

Not a knock to you or Coach Dungy but yeah, real low key. The funny thing about that is that the "family values" stuff (right or wrong) is nothing new for Dungy. But now that he's a Super Bowl winning coach, everyone wants to decide what he should and shouldn't say (as if winning a Super Bowl is on par with being an elected official.) As for OJ, I don't like his attitude, no matter what his age, but I'm sure he could care less what I think one way or the other.

posted by forrestv at 03:21 PM on March 23

The funny thing about that is that the "family values" stuff (right or wrong) is nothing new for Dungy. The fact that Dungy's definition of family values precludes large segments of the population from getting married is certainly new. Previously, his stand on family values has been mainly getting fathers to take care of their children.

posted by bperk at 04:02 PM on March 23

Bperk, not from what I've heard. But, c'mon, he's been the role model for Christian athletes/coaches for a while. It's like finding out Jenna Jameson was once a stripper. Are you really surprised?

posted by forrestv at 04:06 PM on March 23

Bornicon, Don't keep sticking up for OJ Mayo attitude and actions. 3 suspensions, mouth that roared, thinks th at basketball world revolves around him, the list goes on and on over the last 2 years. He is going to have to stand up like a man and be counted when it counts. Period no ands ifs or buts. Like all of us he will answer for his actions and comments as he goes up the professional ladder. For him good luck and I only wish that something doesn't happen to him that brings him downs or causes more problems than he can handle. As for comparing Bonds, Shaq be serious, one Bonds has built his succes on drugs ...look at his rookie card w/h and you will see that he gained 35 lbs betweens seasons and grew about 12% and medically the only way to do that is will drugs . Shaq is a un achiever. He should have been averaging 18+ rebounds and 30+ points due to his size and abilities. He isn't even in the top five centers in history. Can't or won't shoot freethrows, has no moves to basketball but power, defensive should be a far better defensive player than he is. 4 rings speaks alot but talent wise he has hardly even shown us the dominating abilities to completely control the game. Granted today there really isn't any true big centers but thata should have allowed him to take games over but he seldom did.

posted by ucla512 at 04:26 PM on March 23

ucla, Mayo hasn't been suspended 3 times. Your rant is both wrong and incoherent. The rest of your rant about Bonds and Shaq is also wrong, but competely unrelated to the thead, so I'm going to ignore it. forrestv, I am not surprised, but I am disappointed. I especially don't like that Christianity has been co-opted by conservatives, so that Christian becomes synonomous with the kind of thinking that promotes statutory solutions to moral and religious issues.

posted by bperk at 04:49 PM on March 23

"taking a stand" - not of civil rights proportions,... but for one's self? Yea, you can do that. To dispute a metaphor is just weird. Using blurry, re-mixed videos to support an argument is lame. It's high school. He's a kid. He threw a ball. Everyone there who knew him, loved it. The ref bump? Imagine if people really went flying like that when brushed up against... picture a subway station... lol. He's been talked about for years, and was on the cover of basketball magazines before he hit grade 12. He was so hyped... i mistakenly told a friend recently "he's in college somewhere" - because I thought with all that hype (I read about years ago) he had to be by now.

posted by 2 time mvp of the shittiest team ever at 04:51 PM on March 23

Where's bishop when you need him? Once Mayo gets shot, arrested for something or other, and/or gets involved in an on-court melee he will show up. Every time I stay out, they pull me back in. YingYang, I actually believe kids like you are far worse than kids like OJ. Your statement above indicates ignorance and nothing more. This is what African Americans are referring to when they say racism still exists everywhere. You assuming that this kid, because he's Black, will eventually be shot, arrested or involved in some other form of unacceptable behavior (even when black men are shot it is due to there unacceptable behavior, see Sean Bell ) is the epitome of racism. Now I know from past experience that you or one of your rescuers will come along and say that's not how you meant it, that you meant "if" he gets involved in something Bishop will be along. However your statement is undeniable. OJ at his young age must be confident because he has to overcome kids (and adults) at his school just like you. The racists that assume he will end up something other than successful or the ones that say "yea your good, but know your place BOY". Some of those racists use to say the same thing about a young kid named Cassius Clay when he would proclaim "I MUST be the greatest". One fool said OJ was like T.O. and another said "he might end up like Maurice Clarett". WTF? Who here knows this kid personally? OK, I'll rephrase that, who here has ever been a 17 year old African American? Ahh a panel of experts I see. Why does OJ have an attitude? If he wants to be great, he's suppose to. "Champions aren't made in gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them: A desire, a dream, a vision. They have to have last-minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have to have the skill and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill." "Its lack of faith that makes people afraid of meeting challenges, and I believed in myself." "What's my name, fool? What's my name?" What Ali kept yelling while winning a 1967 decision against Ernie Terrell, who had insisted on calling him Cassius Clay. "Eat your words! Eat your words! I am the greatest." Muhammad Ali shouting at reporters who had dismissed him as a loudmouth and a fake before his fight with Sonny Liston. "It's hard to be humble, when you're as great as I am." "I am America. I am the part you won't recognize, but get used to me. Black, confident, cocky -- my name, not yours. My religion, not yours. My goals, my own. Get used to me." -Muhammad Ali (speaking for every Black child that has chosen sports to get out of the ghetto over selling drugs or being a rapper.)

posted by Bishop at 07:20 PM on March 23

Bishop you missed my point entirely. What I was refering to is your habit of stepping into threads only when one of the afore metioned instances happen (you've commented in threads involving all three). I was in no way assuming that Mayo is going to end up involved in those things because he is black, I said it because your past history indicates that you would be more likely to comment if he did. Here is what I should have put at the end of my previous comment. Once Mayo gets shot, arrested for something or other, and/or gets involved in an on-court melee he will show up. Sarcasm!

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 09:10 PM on March 23

I must have missed the sarcasm tag, because it just seemed like you were calling Bishop out for doing nothing at all. Hopefully, I missed the <fake_smackdown> tag on Bishop's response. Also, the triply oversized "Sarcasm!" would be overwrought for Lady MacBeth.

posted by yerfatma at 09:39 PM on March 23

Out! Out! Out damn sarcasm!

posted by tommytrump at 07:11 AM on March 24

Bishop, Why would you in a round about way accuse Ying Yan of racism. Do you know him personally? Maybe I'm not all here but I did not read anything in his comments that even approached a racial overtone. The fact is he complimented OJ as much as he criticized him. I think you were the one that brought race into the picture. I don't think race has even been mentioned since this topic was listed a few days ago. I was under the impression that we were discussing a young and very talented high school basketball player and his statments made in regard to receiving cell phone calls, not the history of Muhammad Ali. By the way Ernie Terrell never did call him Muhammad Ali. That said I want to thank you for your definition of a champion. I noticed the quotation marks around the statement and was womndering where you got it? would you please advise. I would like to pass it on to my team of young African American and Caucacian basketball players. it was truly profound.

posted by sportnut at 12:19 PM on March 24

sportsnut, I did a search of quotations and couldn't find anything on that. However, i did find a T. Alan Armstrong quote which goes like this....."Champions do not become champions when they win the event, but in the hours, weeks, months and years they spend preparing for it. The victorious performance itself is merely the demonstration of their championship character."

posted by tommytrump at 01:29 PM on March 24

Why does OJ have an attitude? If he wants to be great, he's supposed to. Probably true, but it's nice to see the occasional superstar athlete who retains a little humility. If I had Mayo's skills I'd throw the ball in the stands after every basket and make my college coach do my laundry.

posted by rcade at 02:35 PM on March 24

I think you were the one that brought race into the picture. No, race was in the picture long before Bishop joined the thread.

posted by bperk at 04:37 PM on March 24

I just hope OJ Mayo doesn't end up like OJ Dingo.

posted by Hugh Janus at 04:42 PM on March 24

By the way Ernie Terrell never did call him Muhammad Ali. After that fight, he didn't have to. The only thing he was concerned with was why he couldn't remember his own name. He was brutally put in his place for his transgression. From that moment on, every time Ernie went to the store, the mall, the doctors office to get his lumps checked, how many times do you think someone said, DAMN you should have said his name. I can picture him now, sitting in the locker room after the fight, with his head hung low whispering, "at least I didn't say his name", and then someone suggesting, "maybe you should have". Maybe I'm not all here but I did not read anything in his comments that even approached a racial overtone. When a person suggests that a African American teenager will "sooner or later" end up arrested, shot, or be involved in some sort of disorderly conduct, and you come along and say you don't find any racism in that, there is no need for me to attempt to explain why an African American would find jail, guns, or violence references racist. Most stereotyping=racism. Get it? All the " " in my previous post were from Ali.

posted by Bishop at 10:44 PM on March 24

Bishop we have had several arguements. I just want to make it clear to you that I am not racist, not now or in the past. I do understand that sometimes I may word my comments in such a way that it can lead to assumptions, but I always try to clarify it.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 06:34 AM on March 25

Bishop, we have had some arguments in the past. I just want to make it clear to you I am the world's greatest lover, Olympic sprinter and the actual Kennedy assassin.

posted by yerfatma at 08:12 AM on March 25

YiingYang, good enough. Yerfatma, there is no way in this world you are the greatest lover or an Olympic sprinter. As far as the Kennedy thing....I had a feeling.

posted by Bishop at 10:02 PM on March 25

"As for comparing Bonds, Shaq be serious, one Bonds has built his success on drugs.........Shaq is a under achiever" posted by ucla512 at 4:26 PM CST on March 23 You have got to be kidding me, right? Barry Bonds "built his success" because of drugs? Shaq is an underachiever? Dude, if you want to create something to debate about, make sure you do it with something worth debating about. It seems like you not only enjoy having people respond to what you write about or you just like to talk out your ass. Either way, you're way off base. Barry Bonds started his career with speed and power, he may not be as fast as he once was but the power sure is still there (regardless what people may or may not think about the man, he's never been found guilty of anything). As far as your 'statement' concerning the "Big Aristotle", all I have to say is 4 rings. No need to add anymore to that at all. Now let me help you remove your ass from your mouth.

posted by BornIcon at 07:26 AM on March 26

If he's flexible enough to get his ass in his own mouth in the first place, he probably doesn't need your help getting it back out. /gymnastics envy

posted by The_Black_Hand at 08:27 AM on March 26

You got a point there.

posted by BornIcon at 08:58 AM on March 26

Bishop, My last comment on this topic. There is not one thread that states that an African American young man was involved in the topic being discussed, EXCEPT from yourself. Due to media coverage we all already knew that. The only things said in regard to race were, "OJ is a black kid"form a thread provide by bperk. YingYang's statement simply addressed OJ Mayo being shot or arrested, there was nothing said about him being an "African American teenager"as you said in your responce.I have one question for you. Who is doing the stereo typing? I totally get it. I think we have a young very talanted basketball player that is not very mature yet, and needs some help addressing the media. I don't think race should even be involved in the topic. I think he will probably be an outstanding college and professional athlete. But since I cannot see into the future I'm just assuming that. By the way the majority of stereotyping that goes on in society in all probability does not = racism. GET IT. With that said I do think there is a great deal of racial stereotyping going on in the world today, I just don't think it was being done here.

posted by sportnut at 09:41 AM on March 26

There is not one thread that states that an African American young man was involved in the topic being discussed, EXCEPT from yourself. You are showing your ignorance of racism if you think someone has to say "that black kid is a thug" for racism to exist. Did you miss the part about how O.J. has no future if he blows his knee out? Did you miss the TO and Maurice Clarett comparisons? How about the part about him having no class? Take a look at all the terrible qualities that O.J. has according to the folks in this thread, then compare it to his actions. If you don't see any problems, then you might be one of those people who don't see racism outside of a KKK meeting.

posted by bperk at 10:21 AM on March 26

Clearly Mayo's race plays a factor in how his actions have been perceived. Every young black phenom in basketball is going to face the thug stereotype if he gets into any controversy. One of the things I dislike in current sports is how quick some fans embrace that stereotype about the NBA.

posted by rcade at 10:39 AM on March 26

I guess Afro American players are the only players who blow their knee out? There are allot of players that are many different races the don't have a lick of class, so what does that mean. As far as bad qualities that OJ has I didn't see any except immaturity, and that goes for his actions also, nothing more than any great high school athlete would have if he were hounded by the press 24 / 7. And in regard to your last statement, I guess we go to a whole different subject when speaking about the KKK. Again I thought this was about a fantastic high school basketball player and a small hick-up he MAY have made when addressing a question from the press. I didn't think we were disscussing anything but SPORTS. I think it is a shame we don't focus on the subject.

posted by sportnut at 10:43 AM on March 26

"Now I know from past experience that you or one of your rescuers will come along and say that's not how you meant it, that you meant "if" he gets involved in something......" I don't think that sportnut 'gets it'. Someone doesn't have to come outright and say nasty things about a race to have it be interpreted as being racist. Bperk was correct when he wrote, "Did you miss the part about how O.J. has no future if he blows his knee out? Did you miss the TO and Maurice Clarett comparisons? How about the part about him having no class?" All of those things equate to an underlying of racism, whether you realize it or not. If this was a story about a phenomenal white kid that can ball above the rim (Now that would be a story to post), there would be no mention of him being able to succeed if he was to blow out his knee. People make it seem as if a black, gifted athlete wouldn't be able to make a living outside of sports if injured but most of us know that's not to be the case. The little snide comments about someone like O.J. Mayo is what troubles me the most since no one here actually knows this kid on a personal level or even knows what this kid is about. All we hear is what the media wants us to hear and we are determined to make up our own minds on a later date. By the way sportnut, when did you become YYM's PR man? "What my client actually meant to say was...."

posted by BornIcon at 11:06 AM on March 26

I guess Afro American players are the only players who blow their knee out? sportnut, you really should read the book "Friday Night Lights", with particular attention to what happens to Boobie Miles. It's a story about one team and one town, but it's not told in a vacuum.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 11:56 AM on March 26

BornIcon, I'm nobodys PR man. I was just making the point that the focus should be on a very talented young athlete, weather they are Afro American or Caucacian American. I think your statement regarding TO and Maurice Clarett is accurate, but the reference to no class, and bad knee is a stretch. There are allot of athletes that have no class not just white and not just black. And MOST athletes have bad knees before their carreer is over. Most of them wonder what their professional future holds after their sports career is over. There was nothing said in any thread about the Afro American athlete not being able to succeed after the athletic carreer is over except by YOU. Oh I forgot I'm supposed to assume that. I think in the long run we take away from the truly great basketball player OJ Mayo is and focus on our own perceptions, and I am as guilty of that as anybody. You are totally right with your statement, In short TIME WILL TELL. And am I to assume a white basketball player can't "ball above the rim." Hey could you define snide comment, was that one?

posted by sportnut at 12:22 PM on March 26

There was nothing said in any thread about the Afro American athlete not being able to succeed after the athletic carreer is over except by YOU Ummm, yea. I think you need to check with who you're talking to BEFORE you decide to tell them what they said or in this case, what they didn't say. First off, I'm not the one that said anything about a black athlete not being able to succeed after basketball. Get your facts together before you decide to step up. Secondly, you are someone's PR man whether you realized it or not (the check's in the mail according to YYM) since you decided to speak for YYM after Bishop proclaimed, "Now I know from past experience that you or one of your rescuers will come along and say that's not how (YYM) meant it, that (YYM) meant "if" he gets involved in something......" BTW, besides Chris Anderson, aka the Birdman (New Orleans Hornets), tell me what white kid can play above the rim? Talk to me, I'll be patiently waiting right here for your answer. Please don't say Adam Morrison......please don't do it to yourself.

posted by BornIcon at 01:25 PM on March 26

There was nothing said in any thread about the Afro American athlete not being able to succeed after the athletic carreer is over except by YOU drumdance: What are his prospects if he blows out his knee? How many people will return his calls then? Seriously, this is getting ridiculous. And, if you want to have a serious conversation about race, stop calling black people "Afro Americans."

posted by bperk at 01:29 PM on March 26

Yeah because I rarely see any afros these days anyways. My cousin has an afro but ends up getting it braided into cornrows so that doesn't count.

posted by BornIcon at 01:46 PM on March 26

Your right bperk, I didn't want to have any conversation about race, especially on a sports sight. I let myself get drawn into a dialog that has nothing to do with the topic, and regret it. SORRY I feel like I'm on the mat and the name is Muhammed Ali. I'm sure we will have many more discussions. Peace.

posted by sportnut at 02:15 PM on March 26

It's weird because just yesterday I felt like I was on Muhammad Ali and my name isn't Matt.

posted by yerfatma at 03:01 PM on March 26

boirnicon, once again you didn't look at the over all picture of Bonds. He had the stats to be in the Hall of Fame when he went to SF. But you look at them since 95-95 his size and weight increase and power increase. Nobody in his right mind can say he doesn't belong in the Hall. But fact is, without question, he used steriods to increase his power and strength. Steriods don't increase your hitting abilities because that is something that was god given. But it does allow you to hit the ball further and a pop fly without drugs is an out but a pop fly under steriods has been proven to go further and therefore a homerunl. The debate isn't whether he did but should he be rewarded for doing it. As far as Shaq is concerned he hasn't delivered the stats to be considered in the top 5 centers. Why maybe you can tell me. He should be rebounding at least 18-20 a game and completely dominate the inside but he doesn't do it day in and day out. You go look in the record books at you will see Chamberlain averaged 25 rebounds a game and remember he also average 50 points a game one year. I don't give me that bull shit about he played all the time. Yeah, he did, but he played against the best talent all the time. The league is watered down to a point that some feel that basketball today is too large for the player pool. 20 years ago 40% of the players now wouldn't have made the NBA. Shaq is the best true center in the last 10 years but looking at what else is in the league I don't know how much that counts. I am obivous older than you, but I went to UCLA in the late 50's and early 60's and have the opportunity to see all the players from that era and todays. I ask you to name me one player today that can stand with Elgin, Walt, Wilt, Kareem, Michael, Jerry, Bill, Nate, Oscar and the list goes on and on. You watch the games that those players played and how they played and maybe you would see that the differences between then and now are far greater than the players are bigger stronger faster blablabla. Heard it for years from my kids and now grandkids. I am not an old man living in the past. But there isn't very many players today that would have been able to make it like they are now. As great as Jordon was he would have received the protection from the refs and his pushing off , walking, carrying the ball over great charges to the hoop would have went for not. Walt Frazier, Tom Haliceck, West, Dave Bing, Dick Barnett and all those guards would have broken him in half. West would have picked his pockets as would have Walt and Tommy H Casey Jones, Ok maybe I am a little bit overstating but the NBA today isn't as tuff or hard ass as before. Shaq has the tuffness to hang with them but the others no way in helll. My grandfather use to play with the Babe in the late teens and early 20's and he use to talk about all the players of the era in all the leagues. Gosh Gibson, Paige, Grover Cleveland Alexander, Babe, Lou , Lefty Grove, Young, but he lived to the late 70's and it was amazing to talk to him because he always was saying the say and me except that he was witnessing all the eras he talked about The players today are different than 20 years ago so maybe it is a discussion that will always be opinionated and bias one way or the other. But one thing hasn't changed and that fact is you still have to put the ball in the hoop, rebound, play defense and won. Like Chick use to say "Win baby Win".

posted by ucla512 at 03:20 PM on March 26

WHAT A MOUTHFUL, I agree with you 100%. Now your going to get crucified by all the ballers that don't know a thing about the true game of basketball. Basic fundementals. The game is a slam dunk 3 point shooting contest as I said a month ago. That is a big reason that free throw percentages are lower than ever. When a player averages 50 points a game or has triple doubles EVERY GAME of the season aka Wilt and Oscar there may be some small argument, but not until those stats are approached, and guess what they NEVER will be. But until then no one can argue, you are 100% right. Beware you are going to get blasted.

posted by sportnut at 04:03 PM on March 26

As far as Shaq is concerned he hasn't delivered the stats to be considered in the top 5 centers. Who are your top 5 centers?

posted by bperk at 04:38 PM on March 26

Secondly, you are someone's PR man whether you realized it or not (the check's in the mail according to YYM) Oh no. I've already made it known how much I hate sonnet comments.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 05:44 PM on March 26

not until those stats are approached . . . But until then no one can argue, you are 100% right. Beware you are going to get blasted. Why would statistics be able to show who can play and who cannot when the game changes over time? Also, it's poor form in a debate to declare one's side "100% right"; it tends to kill discussion.

posted by yerfatma at 06:28 PM on March 26

Wilt, Bill Russell, Nate Thurmond, Kareem, Walt Bellamy, these are just 5, the list could be much larger with some more thought. Patrick Ewing, Wes Unseld, etc,etc.........

posted by sportnut at 07:01 PM on March 26

Patrick Ewing was a more dominating center than Shaq? I don't see it. Denying Shaq as "just a dunker" ignores reams of evidence to the contrary.

posted by yerfatma at 07:39 PM on March 26

I'm not even going to discuss Wilt and Bill Russell. But the rest . . . Shaq 26.3 PPG / 11.8 RPG / 2.8 APG / 2.5 BPG Thurmond 15 PPG / 15 RPG / 2.7 APG / 2.1 BPG Kareem 24.6 PPG / 11.2 RPG / 3.6 APG / 2.6 BPG Bellamy 20.1 PPG / 13.7 RPG / 2.4 APG Ewing 21 PPG / 9.8 RPG / 1.9 APG / 2.4 BPG Unseld 10.8 PPG / 14 RPG / 3.9 APG / 0.6 BPG

posted by bperk at 08:39 PM on March 26

bperk, with all due respect, which is considerable: Are you implying that Wes Unseld & Patrick Ewing (I'm not even going to discuss Nate Thurmond and Walt Bellamy, who I'm assuming you threw in for ballast) are better centers than Shaq? There are five centers at the top of the all-time class: Shaq, Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem (who you missed) and Russell. Your age and geographical location informs the all-time order in which you put them. Wes Unseld was a fine player, and Patrick Ewing might crack a top ten list (Moses Malone, anyone? Oh hey, how about Tim Duncan?), but if you really believe there's a place for either of them in the rarefied atmosphere of that top-five list, you might want to lie down and sleep it off.

posted by chicobangs at 11:47 PM on March 26

Chico I think bperk was showing that Shaq is indeed one of the Top Five centers in response to sportnut.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 05:40 AM on March 27

Yeah, I think bperk was pointing out Shaq belongs. Tim Duncan's an odd case for me because he seems more like a Kevin McHale body but still brings the benefits of a center.

posted by yerfatma at 05:59 AM on March 27

"But fact is, without question, he used steriods......" Firstly, UNLV..or is it USC, no that's not right either. I got it, EPMD, right? The name is BornIcon. Fact is? Without question? And how do you happen to know it's fact considering MLB has yet to determine that or for that matter, the government? People can accuse whoever they want but that doesn't make it fact unless you have this simple thing called proof. Ever heard of that? Because as of right now, no one has concrete proof that Barry Bonds has taken Flintstone vitamins for arguments sake (yes, the purple Dino ones). "Chamberlain averaged 25 rebounds a game and remember he also average 50 points..." Com'on now, I would never take anything away from what the 'Big Dipper' did in his great career but your talking about a center that played in an era where most of the players were all white and barely 6'2", plus dunking wasn't even really part of the game as of yet (which took everyone by surprise when he 1st did it) but we all know from some of Wilt's highlights that he was doing just that. The only other competition that Wilt had at center was Bill Russell and look who has more championships there, which from my estimation, is what really matters in any sport. My top 5 ALL-TIME Centers: 1. Hakeem 2. Russell 3. Wilt 4. Kareem 5. Shaq What do they all have in common you ask? They're not only great centers, they all won a few championships along they way too.

posted by BornIcon at 06:33 AM on March 27

Fact is? Without question? And how do you happen to know it's fact considering MLB has yet to determine that or for that matter, the government? BornIcon, I don't want to sound an apologist for the Bonds-haters, but isn't it the case that he stated that he had unknowingly used steroids in topical form? It is certainly different from an admission that he knowingly took steroids, and that distinction should be made, but I believe that it is technically true that he did take steroids and has stated that he did, wihch it seems would make it "fact" and "without question".

posted by lil_brown_bat at 08:08 AM on March 27

In the early days of the NBA the center was the focus of the offence. Everything started with some sort of cut ,rotation, pick- away off of the center. In the modern NBA most of the offense is focused on the movement of the guards. There were some situations that were exclusive in that era such as the Cincinnati Royals and Oscar / L.A. Lakers and the 76ers with Magic and Dr."J" but for the most part the two eras are different. In the modern day NBA the center is not called on to carry the load as it were in the old days. That has allot to do with the current opinions on who is the best. The current Miami heat are a bit different because their star Mr. Wade is injured. By the way, with the exception of Yuo Ming and a few other players, the NBA is man for man much smaller than the old days. Wes Unseld was only 6'7" and his stats were not far off of those mentioned centers that were all 6'11" or taller. Opps, Walt Bellamy was listed at 6'10". Maybe this has already been done, but it would be very interesting to put together a mythical game between the old era NBA and the new era NBA. Being an old man I would put my money on the oldtimers. Take a poll on the top 10 players at each position in regard to their playing years, break that down to the best team of that time and pit them against each other. Could be interesting. Like I said it has probably been done.

posted by sportnut at 08:22 AM on March 27

BornIcon, I don't want to sound an apologist for the Bonds-haters, but isn't it the case that he stated that he had unknowingly used steroids in topical form? It is certainly different from an admission that he knowingly took steroids, and that distinction should be made, but I believe that it is technically true that he did take steroids and has stated that he did, wihch it seems would make it "fact" and "without question". Bonds admitted to using some cream and something clear from his trainer that the prosecutors say were steroids created by BALCO, Cream and Clear. Presumably, his attorney could go to GNC and find some creams and some clear stuff and argue that it could have been any number of other things. bperk, with all due respect, which is considerable: Are you implying that Wes Unseld & Patrick Ewing (I'm not even going to discuss Nate Thurmond and Walt Bellamy, who I'm assuming you threw in for ballast) are better centers than Shaq? How could you even think such a thing?

posted by bperk at 08:48 AM on March 27

"he had unknowingly used steroids......." Whatever information that was 'leaked' is inadmissible but since we're not a judge or jury let's just say he did "unknowingly" took steriods. Not knowing what someone gave him is not unheard of in the world of sports but people make it seem as if it's treated the same exact way like your yearly physical at the local clinic. The bumps and bruises these guys endure over a season long schedual is nothing to laugh at so I'm sure that these athletes are given something per trainers' request to alleviate some of the pain. 'Unknowingly' is definitely not the same as 'knowingly' and unless there's proof showing otherwise, I'll continue to talk about Barry Bonds exactly the way he should be talked about, innocent until proven guilty. It's the American way-

posted by BornIcon at 09:07 AM on March 27

By the way, with the exception of Yuo Ming and a few other players, the NBA is man for man much smaller than the old days. I would love to see any citation that supports this contention, given height has been increasing over time, especially in first-world countries (pdf). It would seem strange if the one place on Earth with a downward height trend were a sports league that values height like no other.

posted by yerfatma at 09:23 AM on March 27

"...the NBA is man for man much smaller than the old days" The average player in the (current era of the) NBA is 67. "When compared to the NBA of today, 1960s NBA basketball was extremely undersized. Today a NBA team might have four or more players that are 6'9 or taller. When Wilt Chamberlain entered the NBA in 1960, there were only four players in the LEAGUE that were taller than six foot eight. The 7'1 275 pound titan was a dominant force from the moment he arrived in the NBA" From: The Death of the NBA Big Man Part 1 Posted by Matt McCready on 12.05.2006 on 411mania.com So as you can see, Wilt had a major height advantage coming into the league when he did. Does that make his impact on the game any less important? No it does not, I just wanted to show your error in your distinction of height between the two eras of the NBA.

posted by BornIcon at 09:30 AM on March 27

'Unknowingly' is definitely not the same as 'knowingly' Yes, BornIcon, that's what I said. Thank you. and unless there's proof showing otherwise, I'll continue to talk about Barry Bonds exactly the way he should be talked about, innocent until proven guilty. It's the American way- You can talk about Barry Bonds however you want, but -- leaving aside the fact that "innocent until proven guilty" has nothing whatsoever to do with PED regulations in sports -- innocent of what? If the accounts of what were in the cream and the clear are true, he is not innocent of having used steroids, by his own admission. That's all I'm saying.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 10:03 AM on March 27

I'll continue to talk about Barry Bonds exactly the way he should be talked about, innocent until proven guilty. It's the American way "Innocent until proven guilty" no more applies to public opinion than the administration of this site is bound by the First Amendment. I think you're seeking a universal standard that would be embraced by every person who was ever asked when they stopped beating their spouse, but it just doesn't exist. You're welcome to set that personal standard, but you're kidding yourself if you think it is the American way outside of a courtroom.

posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 11:06 AM on March 27

"...leaving aside the fact that "innocent until proven guilty" has nothing whatsoever to do with PED regulations in sports..." I beg to differ, I think it does. If a guy that never tested positive for any illegal substance according to the rules and regulations according to MLB, why is Bonds the poster child for the whole 'steriod scandal' when he's never been tested positive? "...innocent of what?" You asked me what he's innocent of, tell me, what's he guilty of? You keep going back to saying, "by his own admission" from information that was 'leaked' but the only thing he admitted to was that his trainer provided him with "some sort of cream" for his "tendonitis" and "the clear" he thought was "flax seed oil". What does that mean? In a sense, it means that he thought his trainer was providing him with something he felt Barry Bonds needed at that time, nothing more, nothing less. Now that's all I'm trying to say. I'm not one to burn the guy at the stake because a few people dislike his demeanor or whatever else they dislike about the man, I just try to give people the benefit of the doubt. "I think you're seeking a universal standard that would be embraced by every person who was ever asked when they stopped beating their spouse..." No, actually I'm not seeking a thing, I'm just providing an opinion. As far as your 'beating a spouse" analogy goes, it's just plain, what's the word? Oh yeah, retarded. The Fifth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution reads, in part, "No person shall be ... deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law ..." What this means, in plain terms, is that constitutionally you cannot be executed, imprisoned, or be fined without the proper course of justice taking place. As you found out, due process, itself, is not defined in the constitution, but is universally recognized as meaning what we term as "a fair trial". Ever heard of that?

posted by BornIcon at 11:37 AM on March 27

I beg to differ, I think it does. If a guy that never tested positive for any illegal substance according to the rules and regulations according to MLB, why is Bonds the poster child for the whole 'steriod scandal' when he's never been tested positive? Legality has nothing to do with whether a substance is banned by MLB or any other sports regulating body. That is a basic truth, the understanding of which is essential to having any intelligent discussion on drug regulation in sports. Likewise, as Sousepaw has already explained to you, legality has nothing to do with the court of public opinion, nor do MLB regulations, and innocence has never been a protection from being judged in that court. If what you're trying to ask is, "Why has Barry Bonds been tried in the court of public opinion," hell, why was anyone else ever tried there? Because people think he's guilty even without proof, because people see enough evidence to convince them, because people see smoke and figure there's fire...because people just plain don't like him. It makes no difference why. Neither the laws of the land nor MLB regulations control what people think of Barry Bonds, and you don't control it either. The Fifth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution reads, in part, "No person shall be ... deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law ..." Do get back to us when the US government deprives Barry Bonds of life, liberty or property.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 12:27 PM on March 27

BI, you should get in touch with Lee Greenwood, see if he needs a songwriting partner. Hell ya, bro!

posted by yerfatma at 12:43 PM on March 27

BornIcon, Thanks for your correction, and the foot note. Was that a book or an article in a publication I would love to read it. I guess what I ment to say is that the big man of today does not have the impact that they had even 5 to 7 years ago. Again there are exceptions like Yuo Ming, and the kid from Orlando. I see many line-ups that don't include a towering center as in the old days. Point in fact is Chris Weber with the Pistons, he is a 6'9" center.

posted by sportnut at 01:01 PM on March 27

All you young guys should really looked at what the players were doing back in your descriptions of the dark ages of the NBA. Last time I look Imhoff was 6'10", Upseld may have been small but I can tell without even blinking that Shaq couldn't back in on him like he does to all the smaller centers today. You remember Dr J, Connie Hawkins, all those guys flew in the air and as far as WiLT AND Kareem are concerned Shaq couldn't or wouldn't keep up. Shaq should be one of the most dominating centers in NBA history but he isn't for whatever reason. The oldtimers may not have been bigger faster stronger quicker than todays players but played the game from one end to the other. They were not perfect but my money is on a team of Wilt, Kareem, Elgin, Jerryl, Oscar, Walt, Tom, KC, Westly, Nate, Bob Pettit, Cousy and other to many to name to take any and all on at there primes. Wouldn't even be close. Lil brown bat , the whole point isn't the 5th but the fact is he did take or ingest steriods and has increased his size, strength, speed and endurance and ability to recover sooner but doing so. The steriods can't hit a baseball but they do allow it to go further. Look at his stats since going to SF. Now that he is off(Is he) the stuff more long outs, less HR's in more at bats and doesn't recover as quickly from injury as he did a couple of years ago. Old timers RULE and that is the way the cookie crumbles.

posted by ucla512 at 01:33 PM on March 27

What this means, in plain terms, is that constitutionally you cannot be executed, imprisoned, or be fined without the proper course of justice taking place. So glad I have someone here to wipe my chin with the Constitution. There is no doubt you will make a great juror, what with all this extra practice.

posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 04:48 PM on March 27

Sportnut if I am not mistaken Webber is primarily a forward. The reason he is at the center position is because it is the best place for him in the Piston's starting five.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 06:38 PM on March 27

Upseld may have been small but I can tell without even blinking that Shaq couldn't back in on him like he does to all the smaller centers today. If you can tell me that without blinking, (I'm so sorry) it might be because you have been lobotimized: Wes Unseld was 6'6" or 6'7" and 245 pounds. Shaq is listed at 325 and probably weighs a bit more. Simple physics suggests Shaq back him down in the same way you could back down someone a half foot and 80 pounds lighter than you.

posted by yerfatma at 07:14 PM on March 27

YYM, The pistons are not the only team that plays with a 3 forward, 2 guard offense, or a 3 guard 2 forward offense in the modern NBA. Thats what I ment when I said the current era is smaller. The offenses are geared for a smaller, faster line-up, because they run much more.

posted by sportnut at 05:01 AM on March 28

Yeah, while I'm all for grit and guile, no way would Unseld hold up against Shaq. I admire your loyalty to the guys you grew up watching, and I feel that way about some guys too, but simple physics trumps Unseld's desire and heart. Great player, but Shaq would break him in half.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 05:02 AM on March 28

"Shaq should be one of the most dominating centers in NBA history but he isn't for whatever reason" What?!!? You honestly believe that Shaq isn't one of the most dominant centers of all time? He may not have the same type of competition at the center position as when Wilt and Russell banged in the paint these days but there's just no way that anyone can say (honestly) that Shaq isn't a dominant center. He may not have any comp as of now but when he was a rookie, there were many centers that were still playing at the time. Patrick Ewing was still sweating bullets in the 4th quarter for the Knicks, David Robinson being so overlooked in San Antonio before being teamed up with Tim Duncan, Hakeem Olajuwon was displaying his ballet, two-step underhook in Houston. I mean, it wasn't like he was alone, it's just that those guys retired and Shaq came into his own. It's very similar to the double edged sword that Jordan lived by when he started winning to create the dynasty in Chicago in the 90's. People were saying that there was no one around anymore to compete against the Bulls since Bird and Magic retired. Does make their run of 6 championships any less impressive? I don't think so and neither does it take away from anything that Jordan brought to the game of basketball. The same should be said about Shaq since Shaq revolutionized his positon with brute strength and great footwork. He may not be the best free throw shooter (ok, maybe that's understating things a bit, he sucks ass at the charity stripe) but his mere presence alone on the court can make any team re-adjust their game plan. Also like Jordan, teams that aren't able to contain Shaq just foul him (i.e.the Jordan rules and Hack-a-Shaq) Oh yeah, I almost forgot, he also won 4 championships. Now, how is that not dominance? By the way, Shaq would not only back Wes Unseld down in the paint, he would dunk all over him and make him look very foolish, and then he'll do his little Shaq-Fu dance to add insult to injury.

posted by BornIcon at 07:39 AM on March 28

Shaq's domination of the post position is physical only. It has very little to do with actual basketbal skill. As for foot work in the post, what a stretch. I see a player that physically dominates, as was stated, but when it comes to agility I see very little. One good move every three games? If he moves at all. To put Shaq in the same catagory as MJ is totally off base. MJ was a very talented athlete like Magic Johnson, that if needed could have played any position on the court Shaq has the athletic ability to play the center and offensive tackle and that is it. Speaking of brute strenth, that's all he's got. I saw some film on him yesterday ( high school, and college ) and I have to admitt I was very impressed with his mobility, and athletisum. What happened to it? One more thing, I don't think any of the centers mentioned above were intimidated by Shaq after they played him the first time. Please don't get me wrong I think Shaq is a good basketball player in foootball players clothes. And I also think that he has a great personality, and is a great representative for the NBA. But I'm not so sure that when push came to shove he would be rated any higher than #8 on a top ten list. Apparently you have had very little exposure to the centers of the late 60s thru the middle 80s. How many times have you seen Wes Unseld play. I promise you the minute Shaq started backing him down and lost his head he would no longer back him down, I don't care what the size difference is.You see those were the days when true men played the game ,not a bunch of ego grabbing sissys.

posted by sportnut at 08:14 AM on March 29

Please forgive my statement about Shaq in football players clothes. I ment a footballer in a basketball players uniform.

posted by sportnut at 09:45 AM on March 29

All you guys had better go look at the film of the oldtimers..If you think Shaq because of his size would dominate you got to be smoking something other than cigarettes. Upseld was one of the strongest guys in the league and Nate Thurman use to keep Wilt fairly even,. For the records Nate was over 6'10" and extremely mobile something that Shaq isn't and never will be. And as far as Wilt goes, he didn't have to back over guys, he would stop and turn and finger roll the ball into the hoop except over Nate and later Lanier and Kareem. Let me tell you gentlemen a story that I was lucky enough to witness. It was during the late 60's and Wilt was playing for the Warriors. He turned in the key and put up one of his sometimes hook shots, and little Tommy Hawkings of the Lakers all 6'5"a jump up at least 12+ inches over the rim and blocked it back in Wilt's face. The look on Wilt's face was one of disbelief and then he took the ball out of the air and in your face dunk over Hawkings, Mel Counts and Rudy LaRussa. But the real story was later that year Wilt was going against Tom McChery nd Wilt kind of lost it when Tom jumped on his back as he went up for a dunk. Wilt picked him up and threw him 5 or 6 rows into the courtside seats. Big Tom 6'7 or 8 about 285lbs came out of the seats carrying a folding chair with him and started at Wilt, who just stood there and smiled kind of saying to him OK come on then. Tom looked at Wilt then at the chair and looked around and then just put the chair down and came back on the court. Nothing said nothing done. You want respect not fear this is one instance that shows nothing but the respect that Big Tom had for Wilt's strength and real lowkey attitude for playing. Everyone keeps on saying all the players in the old days were small. Yeah, Bob Lanier, was real small 7' 330 size 22 shoes. Mel Counts was over 7 feet(slim) maybe 230-240 on a good day. Bob Pettit wasn't a small person either. Well over 230. Elgin was 6'5" 235-240 and even today is the only 6'5" forward to average over a 1000 rebounds and 38.7 points per game. A believe me there was nobody in the NBA that wanted any part of Elgin driving to the hoop. Even in todays standards Elgin Baylor stands out as oneof the strongest and most intimating player of any era. Sportnut, right on. Shaq could be so much more than he is. As he had gotten older he has lose so much of his abilities around the hoop. On the other hand, when Wilt came to the Lakers he started to play defense so that nobody drove the middle on him or the Lakers and when Jerry got hurt one year, he decided to score and if my memory serves me, he average well over 35 points for a period of time that was needed until Jerry came back. Shaq doesn't play like that, and to honest after watching with the Lakers for all those years, I don't understand why he doesn't. The three top centers in history all played great defensel. Bill, Kareem, and Wilt. All three were never credited with any many blocked shots because they didn't keep track of that stat until well into Kareem's career. He looked like he wasn't trying on the floor but believe me the reason nobody tried to take it to the middle is the fact that 99% of the time you would have the ball back in your face or Kareem would pick it out of the air and off to the other end. Walton was known for that in high school, college and the pros. Everybody is talking smack about this or that but when it comes to comparing you younger gentlemen had better look at the film highlites and history archives of the NBA from past to present. We all know there is a difference between then and now but you need to watch how the game was played by a quote to Sportnut "the days when true men played the game, not a bunch of egol grabbing sissys." Opinions are opinions and everyone has one. In the other sports a lot of things have changed, some for the good some for the bad, but in basketball the bottom line will and always will be put the ball in the hoop and stop the opponent from doing so as often as you.

posted by ucla512 at 11:53 AM on March 29

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