The NFL to play two regular season games overseas.: Owners agreed today to play two games a year overseas.
posted by apoch to football at 09:05 PM - 63 comments
In a sixteen year rotation each team will be a visitor and home team once. The home team loses an actual home game and will be compensated for the loss of revenue. With games possibly to be played in Europe, you'd think they'd have to link the bye weeks to those games. Maybe the four teams go abroad could play Thanksgiving, then have 10 days before the abroad game and the bye the week after.
posted by apoch at 09:09 PM on October 24
In these days and times this could be a huge liability for the NFL. Imagine if a whole team of players was kidnapped or killed?
posted by yay-yo at 11:03 PM on October 24
They may be stretching themselves too thin. Extra Thursday and Saturday games late in the year, along with another network. Will they be taped delayed? I don't think baseball was too successfull and fans didn't care very much. I don't think too many people want to see the Lions play on National TV more than once a year anyway. Just joking.
posted by patsfan73 at 11:36 PM on October 24
From the article: Europe, Mexico and Canada are believed to be the prime locations for the first contests as the NFL looks to tap into new markets and develop its international presence. Just a correction, apoch: unless you have one heckuva shovel, Canada and Mexico aren't overseas. But it's likely that time zones won't be much of an issue. In these days and times this could be a huge liability for the NFL. Imagine if a whole team of players was kidnapped or killed? I really want to believe that you're joking.
posted by DrJohnEvans at 12:08 AM on October 25
Why don't they just play the whole season overseas.
posted by Jedi Master at 02:44 AM on October 25
I think the whole idea sucks. The home team will be compensated----What about the season ticket holders? They say it will open up a whole new market. Haven't we shipped enough stuff overseas. What's next. Oversea teams because of cheaper labor? yea, that'll work. Just another way to make the owners richer----screw the fans.
posted by skeet0311 at 05:26 AM on October 25
What we really need to get back to is an all-white league for all-white folks, huh? Damned globilization taking all those sports jobs we desperately need. I'd say more but I hear the distinctive sound of black helicopters on the horizon.
posted by yerfatma at 05:41 AM on October 25
DrJohnEvans.. yeah, I guess I should have said abroad as opposed to overseas. I'll be curious to see how they schedule any games in Canada. Presumably they'd try and avoid conflict with CFL games.. but we'll see.
posted by apoch at 06:33 AM on October 25
Great idea if you're an owner in the NFL - gate, merchandize and TV all go up. Bad idea if you're a coach or player. What a pain in the ass. Toronto would like an NFL team, though. I know it. Apparently, the consortium that owns the Blue Jays offered $1 billion for the Bills. Sure it may kill the CFL (at least in Toronto), but dammit, it would be fun.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 08:00 AM on October 25
Unfortunately, Yay-yo makes a valid point. Terrorism is a big threat and anyone who has lived overseas or at least watches international news knows that there are big Muslim (fanatical) concentrations in England, Germany and Netherlands. A shot a hitting a big American, Imperialistic icon like football and their inflated paychecks would be a wet-dream for them. So, when these games start being played in international markets, the next step is going to be allowing international teams (provided the owners make a significant profit in the next few years on their little test) - what would the conferences now be called? NAFC-N - North American Football Conference-North NAFC-S EFC etc...
posted by Stealth_72 at 08:19 AM on October 25
Unfortunately, Yay-yo makes a valid point. Terrorism is a big threat and anyone who has lived overseas or at least watches international news knows that there are big Muslim (fanatical) concentrations in England, Germany and Netherlands. A shot a hitting a big American, Imperialistic icon like football and their inflated paychecks would be a wet-dream for them. Malarkey. Absolute foolishness. American athletes participate in elite international competition all the time, and in many sports, the large majority of the competition is in other countries. As far as I know, they have never come under attack by terrorists...okay, some Croatians threw some snowballs at the Maribor slalom, but c'mon, they were throwing 'em at everybody and they were so drunk that they mostly just hit that big purple inflatable cow. If your boogeyman image of a big Muslim fanatical wet-dreamer had any basis in reality, there would have already been plenty of incidents. It's ridiculous to think that they'd save it all up for players they've never heard of in a sport that almost no one outside the United States knows or cares anything about.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 08:52 AM on October 25
In these days and times this could be a huge liability for the NFL. Imagine if a whole team of players was kidnapped or killed? Yes, because everywhere outside of the US is a lawless, god-forsaken wasteland where people are unable to walk the street without being kidnapped or murdered. To tell you the truth fellas, I think the European branch of al Qaida would much rather blow up Old Trafford or the Nou Camp than an NFL team. Sorry.
posted by afx237vi at 08:57 AM on October 25
Stealth - you've cracked. They finally got to you.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 08:59 AM on October 25
A shot a hitting a big American, Imperialistic icon like football and their inflated paychecks would be a wet-dream for them. It's been said a few times already, but this is utterly asinine. You guys have got to stop living with your heads three feet up your own butts. There is probably a mild chance of an attempt of this happening at the Olympics, World Cup, or some other major high profile international sporting event, but pretty close to impossible given the intense focus on athlete security in recent years (owning perhaps more to the Monica Seles incident than to the Munich tragedy in 1972). Beyond this, most of the very top players in the NFL are completely unknown outside of the US. The sport itself, while a religion to some in this country, is a little more than an obscure curiosity elsewhere. I'll even wager that Brian McBride, Kasey Keller and Claudio Reyna (whom you've probably never heard of) are more widely known to the rest of the world than Tom Brady, Tiki Barber, Terrell Owens, Joe Montana, etc. Saying the NFL players would specifically be targeted by Islamic terrorists is on the same level of cluelessness/paranoia/self-importance as Bill O'Reilly's nutty pronouncement the Kim Jong-Il lit up a nuke to influence the Casey-Santorum race in Pennsylvania.
posted by psmealey at 09:20 AM on October 25
I'll even wager that Brian McBride, Kasey Keller and Claudio Reyna (whom you've probably never heard of) Actually, my wife went to High School with Brian McBride here in Illinois and was quite friendly with him (not THAT friendly). It was either Arlington Heights or Buffalo Grove, I don't recall which. Sorry for the digression. Now back to the rampant paranoia.
posted by willthrill72 at 09:28 AM on October 25
Saw in the Globe this morning some more discussion about this happening in Canada:
Toronto would likely be first on the NFL's list of potential Canadian sites, but because the Toronto Argonauts will be playing host to the 2007 Grey Cup game, the NFL has agreed to steer clear of the Ontario capital. "Guaranteed," Argos president Keith Pelley said Tuesday. "They came and met with us last week. There has been constant dialogue. They have been fantastic partners and said that in bringing an NFL game to Canada, it will be in partnership and co-operation with the CFL. When an NFL game comes to Canada, I'm confident that the [CFL] member club will be involved in some capacity. "The dialogue [regarding the Grey Cup] goes back to last year and it was reinforced last week."
posted by DrJohnEvans at 09:39 AM on October 25
You folks who are so sure there's no threat to American Football teams, answer me this: what happened to NFL Europe? Seems like someone blew that up years ago.
posted by yerfatma at 09:49 AM on October 25
So, you are trying to tell me that the opportunity to kill some 40+ high paid athletes, who are constantly on the news and in the newspapers - yes, believe it or not other countries to read our newspapers and as for the thought of NFL being an obscurity, you are sadly misinformed. Anyone ever watch Sky T.V in Europe? They have a pretty decent following of NFL games, they even have a package dedicated to North American Sports - College football, NFL, ESPN etc... - So the chance of wiping out high paid, "star" status Americans, 100+ when you consider coaches and staff, in one shot is a stretch of the imagination huh? Has anyone bothered to research how many plots have been stopped prior to their fruition? Anyone know how many time American interests, military bases + businesses, have been the target of plots? I have witnessed it and can tell you it happens a hell of a lot more than you think (I guess actually seeing bombs planted near buildings and in cars kind of gives you a reality check). Your news sources don't report it because it isn't dramatic enough. Go live over in Europe for a few years as an American. Did you know most Americans when visiting Europe put Canadian patches on their backpacks and proclaim they are Canadian....? Sorry to burst your bubble here, but paranoia isn't not my thing... just letting a little reality in on your sheltered lives...
posted by Stealth_72 at 09:55 AM on October 25
paranoia isn't not my thing... just letting a little reality in on your sheltered lives... The double negative is noted. Stealth_72, are you aware that Major League baseball teams & NBA clubs (not to mention tennis players, golfers, Formula 1 drivers, and every other sport this side of NASCAR) sends their teams on overseas junkets as a matter of course, and have for decades? What makes the NFL so special that only now you're noticing that out here on Earth, sometimes rich and famous people (Americans, even!) cross international borders, sometimes even in groups? This thread would be hilarious, except you people really believe this stuff. You act like terrorism was invented in late '01, and that no one's doing anything about it. And I'm sorry, Stealth, but you chiding anyone else about "reality" and "sheltered lives" with this fenced-in suddenly-new fear-all-foreigners attitude is laughable.
posted by chicobangs at 10:27 AM on October 25
Stealth, I have two problems with what you're saying. 1. The idea that attacking the NFL is a "golden opportunity"—I have to agree with psmealy and lil_brown_bat that the NFL just doesn't carry enough international weight to be a valid target. Despite what you hear on Fox News, terrorist organizations generally don't care about attacking you personally, they care about making an international statement: attacking the NFL is a very U.S.-centric statement. 2. The idea that somehow it would be so much easier for such an attack to happen in Europe than in the U.S., or what afx237vi said. Whatever the relevant security forces are, there's no way that their U.S. equivalents are that much better to warrant this kind of worry. On edit: what chico said.
posted by DrJohnEvans at 10:29 AM on October 25
I tried to work up a reason to give a damn about this, but then it dawned on me: I live in the northeast US and don't even receive the NFL Network yet. A big part of me is getting fed up with dealing with all the expense and crap associated with attending NFL games in person, so take all of 'em overseas. Just keep broadcasting them on stations I actually receive.
posted by dyams at 12:06 PM on October 25
Your news sources don't report it because it isn't dramatic enough. Seriously, terrorist attacks thwarted at the last minute are SO DULL
posted by Venicemenace at 12:11 PM on October 25
Tell you what Steath - if the NY Giants are all kiddnaped and killed by Al Qeada, I'll owe you a Coke. But I have to suggest, I think you'll probably by buying your own. And the Olympics are a far better stage for that kind of attack, although security seems pretty good these days. But your suggestion that we need to open our eyes is wrong. Chico and the good doctor are bang on.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 01:17 PM on October 25
I tried to work up a reason to give a damn about this, but then it dawned on me: I live in the northeast US and don't even receive the NFL Network yet. I do, or did, if I wanted to pay for it -- but I've got satellite.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 01:20 PM on October 25
I do, or did, if I wanted to pay for it -- but I've got satellite. Yeah, I don't have satellite. My cable provider gives me the YES Network (Yankees), which satellite doesn't. I'm hoping the NFL Network becomes an option, because I have a feeling more and more games, possibly including games from Europe, will hit that network. Plus I like the way they show games from the previous weekend, minus all the breaks, so you can see a whole game in less than an hour.
posted by dyams at 01:31 PM on October 25
Has anyone bothered to research how many plots have been stopped prior to their fruition? No. Any idea where I would find hard data to do this? How would I define "plots", "stopped" and "fruition" in terms of this? I assume you have the answers since you're calling us out for not researching it.
posted by yerfatma at 01:42 PM on October 25
Great idea for the owners and the NFL as a whole, as one poster said above sucks for the team and the coach. Sucks even more for the season ticket holders. I promise that when the owners are compensated for losing the home game the season ticket holders will never see any of it. They will pay the same price for one less game. The owners will make twice as much on that one game....yep sounds about right....was this Jerry Jones idea or Al Davis'??
posted by T.C. at 02:41 PM on October 25
To tell you the truth fellas, I think the European branch of al Qaida would much rather blow up Old Trafford or the Nou Camp than an NFL team. Sorry. I rather think that in the war of minds, attacking a popular sport like football (soccer) will not make many friends in the Arab world, either. The following of European football in the Middle East is pretty close to fanatical. Having said that, Old Trafford might still be a target, given Osama bin Laden is a Gooner.
posted by owlhouse at 03:03 PM on October 25
Keep the games here. They have Soccer. Football is an American Sport.
posted by yachts360 at 06:26 PM on October 25
terrorist organizations generally don't care about attacking you personally, they care about making an international statement: attacking the NFL is a very U.S.-centric statement. Um... 1. The World Trade Center 2. The Pentagon Seems to be a very U.S.-centric statement to me. I know there is only a small chance of anything like that happening, but to say that terrorists only care about making an international statement is B.S. If they hate the U.S. enough to blow themselves up, I'm sure killing 50-100 Americans would not be a far stretch.
posted by yay-yo at 06:43 PM on October 25
Keep the games here. They have Soccer. Football is an American Sport You will notice that I used brackets to explain what I meant. Most people on this site can tell the difference, many are from countries other than the USA, and we generally revel in our diversity. And where is 'here' on the Internet, in any case? No-one has a monopoly on terminology, unless you've filed a patent or trademark. For example, where I come from, we have four types of football. Yours isn't one of them - instead it's called 'Gridiron'.
posted by owlhouse at 07:29 PM on October 25
Keep the games here. They have Soccer. Football is an American Sport. Actually, football as we know it now was first played in North America in Montreal, Quebec, Canada, between British Army garrisons and McGill University. The game of football is actually a British invention.
posted by tommytrump at 07:57 PM on October 25
1. The World Trade Center 2. The Pentagon You're proving my point for me. Both those structures are/were internationally recognized icons, much more so than any NFL team. And that stuff about terrorists only caring about personally harming you? I'm going to pretend you didn't say that: there's no point in my responding, since you've bought into that bull already.
posted by DrJohnEvans at 09:26 PM on October 25
TommyTrump, ever since you and i was born football has been played in the U.S.A. so spare us the history lesson.Football is(now) an American sport.And it was'nt played like we know it now. If i were a terrorist i would definetly kill me some football players who are loved and looked up to by millions of Americans.I also don't think the N.F.L will be playing in Iraq,Iran,or Syria anytime soon, when they go to Canada or Mexico be rest assured there will be plenty of security around the whole city.
posted by kckurtbusch at 09:59 PM on October 25
As far as I know, they have never come under attack by terrorists...okay, some Croatians threw some snowballs at the Maribor slalom, but c'mon, they were throwing 'em at everybody and they were so drunk that they mostly just hit that big purple inflatable cow. Are you suggesting Croatians are terrorists? Both those structures are/were internationally recognized icons, much more so than any NFL team. Surely, you are excluding the Dallas Cowboys. And their internationally reknowned cheerleading staff. Look, everyone knows all the terrorists are camped out in Canada. Sending a football team up there is just meeting them halfway. And perhaps if they blow up a football team or two, it will keep them occupied and make them forget that whole "Nitro in the milk, glycerin in the Wheaties" plan they've been working on. Plus, it will make the NFL more competitive, what with the talent distributed to fewer teams and all. I think we should be a lot more worried about football players going down to Mexico, getting married after the game, and bringing a lot of immigrants back into the states. That could potentially keep more than a few red-blooded American blonde bimbo gold-diggers from realizing the dream that is their birthright. As Americans, and all. The outsourcing of football wives just sickens me, frankly.
posted by BullpenPro at 10:28 PM on October 25
If i were a terrorist i would definetly kill me some football players who are loved and looked up to by millions of Americans Spare me.
posted by owlhouse at 10:29 PM on October 25
This has to be one of the most surreal conversations. While all of us outside America do live in a state of constant terrorism and attacks (for sure!) I think that if the NFL teams travelled with a marine escort they just might be okay.
posted by Fence at 04:39 AM on October 26
If i were a terrorist ...the world would be a much safer place.
posted by The_Black_Hand at 07:13 AM on October 26
As I said the whole thing sucks. It's strictly about money for the NFL, money for the owners. The cities of the home teams will loose millions in revenue, the surrounding businesses will loose money. The fans will loose a home game and, as I stated above, I'm sure the season ticket for that year will not be "reduced" by the one game. This whole deal above has been about a terrorist attact. Even tho' remote it is a possibility. It is strictly about increased revenue for the NFL and the owners and screw everyone else. Explain to the Greenbay fans (or any teams that would be the home team) how losing a home game is beneficial to them.
posted by skeet0311 at 07:30 AM on October 26
Are you suggesting Croatians are terrorists? Dude, they are. And you know who they're out to get? Swedes. Especially Anja Paerson. Who doesn't play in the NFL. But, um...never mind that.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 09:01 AM on October 26
And that stuff about terrorists only caring about personally harming you? I hear hooked on phonics helps with reading comprehension. 1. The World Trade Center 2. The Pentagon You're proving my point for me. Both those structures are/were internationally recognized icons, much more so than any NFL team. Yeah, internationally recognized AFTER they were attacked. They were both symbols of AMERICA!
posted by yay-yo at 09:06 AM on October 26
The Pentagon was just some anonymous office building until then?
posted by yerfatma at 09:08 AM on October 26
It is strictly about increased revenue for the NFL and the owners and screw everyone else. While I agree that season-ticket holders will probably get screwed by this (no discount for one fewer home game), I think they are the only ones who will get screwed. No doubt the international travel will be a short-term inconvenience, but the players and coaches all stand to gain financially if the NFL gets a foothold in foreign markets. The vast majority of fans will still be able to watch the games without a problem. And while there is a possibility of terrorist attacks - you could say that about literally any scenario inside or outside the US - there is also a possibility of lightning striking a wide reciever dead as he sprints for the game-winning touchdown. It doesn't mean that is a reason why the game shouldn't proceed.
posted by Venicemenace at 10:17 AM on October 26
I pity the people in this thread that think they know what the real threats to their country and precious football teams come from. It really is a moderately devestating revelation. Dude - no one cares about your fucking football team. It's not the fucking Pentagon. Jesus Christ, talk about thinking in global isolation. These are the same voices that cry "America is the greatest country in the World!!" and have never gone anywhere else because the KFC may not be as readily available. I apologize for any gross offenses the above may solicit - but this kind of ignorance just irks me so.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 10:51 AM on October 26
I apologize for any gross offenses the above may solicit I'm not offended one bit by the truth. It sure would be interesting to canvass the USAians who have responded one way or the other about the hypothetical "terrorist threat" to NFL players abroad, and see who's actually been to another country and who's never been out of their little cabbage patch.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 10:54 AM on October 26
The really sad part of it all is that this thread even went in that direction to begin with.....pathetic if you ask me. You nailed it Weedy..no offense taken at all.
posted by T.C. at 11:08 AM on October 26
Sadly, Weedy, you're right. Much like the people who scream about the necessity of sending troops here and there have never put their asses on the line in the military, most of the screaming about the rest of the world comes from backyard apes who've never been out of their own zip code.
posted by The_Black_Hand at 11:11 AM on October 26
there is also a possibility of lightning striking a wide reciever dead as he sprints for the game-winning touchdown. Not if we throw the lightning in Gitmo first! From now on I'm not commenting in any threads until Weedy comes in to shut down the uninformed derails.
posted by DrJohnEvans at 11:43 AM on October 26
There are places with no KFC? For shame, East Timor!
posted by yerfatma at 12:35 PM on October 26
Are we as Americans really so full of ourselves that we actually believe there's a European market for American football? In 2005, NFL Europe averaged 18,965 a game. All six teams that season played their games in areas heavy in U.S. military personnel and their families and I'm guessing they made up a big percentage of those in attendance. Almost every person I've met outside the U.S. thinks American football is a joke with all the armor worn and the fact it takes 3 and a half hours to play a 60 minute game, of which there is only about 40 minutes of action. Now obviously that's a rather limited view, but unless the NFL has Miss Cleo on retainer, this experiment will go down like the Hindenburg
posted by Texan_lost_in_NY at 01:53 PM on October 26
I really think I am dumber for having spent the past 20 minutes reading this thread.
posted by hawkguy at 02:27 PM on October 26
There are places with no KFC? For shame, East Timor Well, it might not be an 'original' KFC, but in downtown Dili there's a fried chicken shop next to the Tropicana Restaurant (just outside the UN's Obrigado Barracks) that has appropriated the Colonel's image and trademark.
posted by owlhouse at 02:39 PM on October 26
I'm with hawkguy.
posted by chicobangs at 02:55 PM on October 26
There are places with no KFC? For shame, East Timor! Dennis Miller called... he wants his short list of obscure nations back. He has a show tonight, and he needs an oil-producing country that starts with a Q.
posted by BullpenPro at 03:04 PM on October 26
A-MER-i-ca, A-MER-i-ca God shed his grace on thee And crown thy good with brotherhood From sea to shining seaaaaaa!
posted by bperk at 03:17 PM on October 26
I really think I am dumber for having spent the past 20 minutes reading this thread. I for one have been enlightened about the terrorist situation in the world and how it relates to America.
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 03:32 PM on October 26
Hello motha, hello qatar, I managed not to steal Paul Barman's genius line, "What the Dili, East Timor?" There's your obscure reference.
posted by yerfatma at 03:47 PM on October 26
TommyTrump, ever since you and i was born football has been played in the U.S.A. so spare us the history lesson.Football is(now) an American sport.And it was'nt played like we know it now. If i were a terrorist i would definetly kill me some football players who are loved and looked up to by millions of Americans.I also don't think the N.F.L will be playing in Iraq,Iran,or Syria anytime soon, when they go to Canada or Mexico be rest assured there will be plenty of security around the whole city. Sigh, never let the truth get in the way of some good jingoism i guess. Football (gridiron) has been played in Canada longer than in the U.S.A., so, I'm thinking football is a Canadian sport exported to the States. Not many sports are played as they were 130 years ago. I'm thinking for sure that the T.V. timeouts are longer now than they were then. If I were a terrorist, I'd prefer to be referred to as a freedom fighter. Lastly, Canada and Mexico are countries, not cities, both which have hosted many sporting events, including Olympics, World Championships....in many different sports, Canada a World Series, Formula One races, I could go on, and yet I've never seen reports of terrorists attacking anyone, let alone Americans at any of these events. I'm thinking any security concerns will be dealt by Canadian/Mexican authorities, last I checked, both were still soveriegn nations. Hell, at least Canadians know which end of a flag is up and which down, which apparently the U.S. Marine Corps occasionally has some difficulty figuring out.
posted by tommytrump at 04:36 PM on October 26
Football (gridiron) has been played in Canada longer than in the U.S.A., so, I'm thinking football is a Canadian sport exported to the States. From the Wikipedia article regarding football- Modern American football grew out of a match between McGill University of Montreal, and Harvard University in 1874. At the time, Harvard students are reported to have played the Boston Game — a running code — rather than the FA-based kicking games favored by US universities. From the entry regarding the invention of "American Football" on about.com- Derived from the English game of rugby, American football was started in 1879 with rules instituted by Walter Camp, player and coach at Yale University. I guess all I'm trying to say is that "American Football" is a North American sport in origin. Whether it originated in Canada or USA is up for debate in my mind. Regardless, it actually derived from rugby, so I guess we have the Brits to thank for it.
posted by willthrill72 at 07:05 PM on October 26
From the Canadian Football League website, "the first written account of a football game, was 1868, October 10." The game was between British officers of a garrison in Montreal and civilians from McGill University. McGill students created rules for the game in 1874, and those rules were first used in the McGill-Harvard game. Obviously there have continued to be further adjustments and rule changes through the years, but it's safe to say football is a Canadian invention, and we've been more than happy to share it with our southern neighbours.
posted by tommytrump at 08:31 PM on October 26
Canadians are waaaaaaaaayyyy to caught up in getting credit for inventing shit that Americans do well. I can't help but feel it comes across as insincere smugness - we're desparate for you to acknowledge that we're here and contributing (because we are, but it's needy and annoying). While it's factually accurate, in that it happened and the dude who did it is Canadian (football, basketball, but probably not hockey amazingly enough), it's actually relatively meaningless. I mean, it's not like football isn't as American as apple pie. It totally is. The Canadian thing is at best a footnote.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 09:32 PM on October 26
Americans are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too caught up in getting credit for have invented things that were actually started in other nations. I am neither needy or overly smug, I just like learning things, and when I have some facts to pass along, I try to do that too. For that matter, Canadians do play the game of gridiron football quite well. The C.F.L. game is more exciting to watch for many people than the N.F.L. They are two different versions of one great game, and many players that star in the N.F.L. would not be so dominant in the Canadian game, and the opposite is true as well. Just an aside, but apple pie is a British invention.
posted by tommytrump at 10:02 PM on October 26
The terrorist threat is real. I once shouted something rude at Bernie Kosar at Wembley. He looked quite hurt and has never been back. Clearly he fears for his safety.
posted by Mr Bismarck at 03:21 AM on October 27
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