The Red Sox Worst Nightmare: David Ortiz of the Red Sox is out indefinately due to an irregular heart beat. Are Bostons hopes of getting into the playoffs officially over? (They're already 7 games behind the Yankees.)
posted by Kendall to baseball at 10:37 AM - 92 comments
That really does suck, and I hope he's OK. When the Sox were thinking things couldn't get any worse, now they find themselves playing without Manny or Papi. If these guys don't find their way back into the everyday lineup very, very soon, the Sox will fall like a sack of cement. Their pitching, especially their middle relief, is already in shambles. But, keeping things in perspective, Ortiz' health is the real serious issue.
posted by dyams at 10:55 AM on August 29
Are you kidding me? List of those not playing, Ortiz, Manny, Veritek, Trot, Willy Mo, Lester, Gonzo, Clement, Wakefield. Mirabelli has been in and out, Youklis has been sick. Even back up pitchers have been getting hurt or sick. Is there a comparison for this type of player loss anywhere else??? We went from 1st place to AAA in one month.
posted by kire at 10:58 AM on August 29
I was watching some of the A's-Red Sox game last night and you realize just how much of a loss it is for them to have Manny and Ortiz missing. Loretta in the 3 spot? Youkilis batting clean-up? Kind of reminded me of some Cardinals games earlier this year when Pujols was on the DL and Rolen missed a few games. The loss of superstar players can make very good teams very ordinary. It's hard to say just when a season is looking like a lost cause, but it looks to me from recent games I have watched that the Red Sox have given up on this one.
posted by holden at 10:59 AM on August 29
At least the media isn't calling it a curse anymore.
posted by Bill Lumbergh at 11:00 AM on August 29
The Ortiz stuff concerns me. A lot. 2006 Red Sox. What to say. Injuries killed them. It was actually a perfect storm really - Injuries across the board, slumps in offense and pitching either due to wear/injury or replacement players being called up. I didn't expect an easy ride all the way through if we were going with the younger players, but you can never anticipate injuries to this extent. You can look at the different angles - Maybe they shouldn't have traded Arroyo, maybe they should have made an acquisition at the deadline, but with the injuries (Especially to Ortiz) I don't know if we had Arroyo now or someone else... if it'd make a difference at this point. Pitching was in trouble all year long and Varitek being hurt/out just double underscored it. They need a reliable veteran presence in the bullpen. They need a bullpen. Javy Lopez is awful. Ortiz is having heart palpitations, Francona's bleeding from the mouth... I'm waiting for someone to come down with leprosy.
posted by jerseygirl at 11:19 AM on August 29
Pitching was in trouble all year long and Varitek being hurt/out just double underscored it. There it is. Pitching is the real reason. Even if the line-up was healthy, pitching is the difference. Good thing Theo held on to those young guns, or else this could be a real problem down the line. Really hope Papi's ok....
posted by Hornsfan817 at 11:26 AM on August 29
Is there a comparison for this type of player loss anywhere else??? Well, Sheffield and Matsui were out nearly all season, but to see these guys both get hurt for Boston, at the same time is terrible. The Yankees have enough firepower in their other players to get by, but without your two big guys- your offense sucks. Right now Boston will be lucky to play .500 ball the rest of the season.
posted by Kendall at 11:30 AM on August 29
The difference is Kendall, that everything happened at the same time for Boston. Post trade deadline. Good thing Theo held on to those young guns, or else this could be a real problem down the line. Young guns plus a healthy rest of the rotation/offense/Varitek/insert whatever broken piece here might do okay. Other teams have done well into the post season with young guns.
posted by jerseygirl at 11:33 AM on August 29
The Sox are fallin' apart like a cheap suit. The writers that cover the team, and many of their fans are even down on them it seems, too. "The-Sox-Held-Hostage-By-Manny-Tour Takes A Toll On Everyone" "This is not to suggest that Manny Ramirez is faking, but his curious on-again, off-again availability-- coupled with the increasingly frequent necessity to remove him from games-- gives the manager fits and is taking the team down." - Dan Shaughnessy, Boston Globe, 08/28/06 "He said he couldn't play. What the (expletive) do you want me to do?' Red Sox manager Terry Francona snapped yesterday morning when asked about Manny Ramirez' absence from the lineup prior to his lifeless team's loss 6-3 loss to the Seattle Mariners. "If a guy says he can't play, he can't (expletive) play. Go ask him. He said he couldn't (expletive) play." -Tony Massarotti, Boston Herald. 08/28/06 Manny being Manny. Nice of him to step up when he's needed.
posted by mjkredliner at 11:44 AM on August 29
Screw the season. Hopefully ortiz will be ok. Well, Sheffield and Matsui were out nearly all season Compare the yankee lineup without sheffield and matsui with the sox line up from yesterday and make that comparison again with a straight face. Or better yet, read this. Sometimes things fall apart and there's nothing you can do. Bobby abreu wouldn't change the situation, this is not about losing damon. The writers that cover the team, and many of their fans are even down on them it seems, too. The writers (as is well known to many fans) that cover boston are a joke. Boston lost 9-0 yesterday. Unless manny is worth 9 runs why risk it. Manny says he's hurt. Playing him in unwinnable games would be idiotic. So I'm missing your point. Manny was one of the lone bright spots in the yankee series.
posted by justgary at 11:55 AM on August 29
Manny being Manny. Nice of him to step up when he's needed Yeah, MVP numbers while playing like 95% of the team's games. What a slacker.
posted by yerfatma at 11:59 AM on August 29
MJK, quoting Shaughnessy immediately invalidates your argument. Sidenote to Gary, I really really like Mnookin's blog too.
posted by jerseygirl at 12:00 PM on August 29
justgary, with 8 1-run losses this month for the BoSox, and much of the lineup already out, it seems to me that all hands are needed on deck. Of course, I don't think like a Boston fan. In two of those losses Manny only pinch hit or sat out. Getting swept by KC and Seattle, losing 2 of 3 to Tampa Bay, and of course the 5 game blowout to the hated Yankees does not bode well for the men from Beantown, but, I have learned to never rule them out. I bet they make it interesting at the least.
posted by mjkredliner at 12:18 PM on August 29
MJK, quoting Shaugnessy immediately invalidates your argument. Thank you for pointing out the error of my ways, I shall not do so again, haha! Yerfatma, do you think they will use him as DH if Ortiz is out for any length of time?
posted by mjkredliner at 12:22 PM on August 29
Thank you for pointing out the error of my ways, I shall not do so again, haha! Like you said, you don't think like a Boston fan, so it'd go without saying, I suppose, that you wouldn't know about Shaughnessy's reputation around here. Suffice it to say, he's not someone you want to quote to bolster an argument.
posted by jerseygirl at 12:24 PM on August 29
Manny has been playing hurt all year. I think it's time to cut him a little slack. The Sox had some great front-line players but you could take about 12 guys off that roster and replace them with just about anyone else and the team wouldn't be much different. They just did not have the depth to compete with the Yankees this year. For the first three months of the year everything seemed to go right - they'd win games they shouldn't have, blow leads and comeback and general play the kind of ball that would give people heart palpatations. Apparently, players included. Now, they're D-U-N.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 12:28 PM on August 29
justgary, with 8 1-run losses this month for the BoSox, and much of the lineup already out, it seems to me that all hands are needed on deck. So he could have made a difference in maybe 2 games? Look, all I'm saying is that looking at the lineup last night manny doesn't do enough alone. Looking at the lineup last night they're not going anywhere anyway. Besides, they'd pitch around him. So even if manny could push through the pain right now, why would you want him to? And what jerseygirl said about Shaughnessy. Manny's had a monster year, and was one of the few who showed up for the yankee series. And now with everything going wrong Shaughnessy falls back on a manny being manny story. He's a joke.
posted by justgary at 12:30 PM on August 29
Now, they're D-U-N. The Red Sox got Adam Dunn?
posted by holden at 12:32 PM on August 29
This household went into "wait 'til next year" mode after the debacle in Tampa and KC. Like most of the above comments, we also really love the bashing of (insert villain here...) that goes on in what tried to pass for the media in Boston. Dan Shaughnessy is a joke. Maybe ESPN will do us a favor and appoint him as one of their talking heads. At least then we can exercise the mute button whenever he appears. How about this for a conspiracy theory? The Boston Globe is owned by The New York Times. The NYT management has ordered the Globe to retain Shaughnessy and to encourage his outrageous negativity just to pxxx off the Red Sox' players and management. This will eventually encourage the better players to leave town, hopefully answering the siren call of Georgie's billions. Oh well, maybe not, but I just don't really understand the need to blame somebody for all the injuries. Wait a minute! Didn't the team fire a very popular trainer after last season? There it is, the root cause of all the injury woes. How do I get this scoop to Shaughnessy?
posted by Howard_T at 12:47 PM on August 29
How about this for a conspiracy theory? The Boston Globe is owned by The New York Times. The NYT management has ordered the Globe to retain Shaughnessy and to encourage his outrageous negativity just to pxxx off the Red Sox' players and management. This will eventually encourage the better players to leave town, hopefully answering the siren call of Georgie's billions. This would make a bit more sense if the New York Times Company was not part owner of the Red Sox (and NESN).
posted by holden at 12:55 PM on August 29
The Red Sox got Adam Dunn? No. Shawon Dunston. I always felt that Ortiz had an abnormal heartrate, in that it only seems to beat in the seventh inning and later of close games, but I never considered it a medical problem ("phenomenon," yes, but not a "problem"). I sincerely hope that everything turns out well, and that we can enjoy Papi's exuberance and clutchness for manny, manny years. My best to David. As for the Sox, man, when it rains it pours. Little consolation probably, but at least you're not "stuck" with this guy. Or even this guy. Reggie Jackson calling A-Rod a "problem" is like Sean Penn criticizing Kenny Rogers for poor decorum. There is no bigger jackass in the whole universe than Reggie Jackson. And I'm including Pluto.
posted by BullpenPro at 01:00 PM on August 29
There is no bigger jackass in the whole universe than Reggie Jackson. And I'm including Pluto. That is because Pluto is a dwarf jackass.
posted by holden at 01:01 PM on August 29
Kire, this is insanely similar to being a Cub fan. Our rotation outside of Zambrano is basically made up entirely of people who should be in the minors. It's so lame to use injuries as a constant excuse, but man, sometimes it's hard not to. In all seriousness though, good luck to Ortiz and his serious condition.
posted by HaHaSports at 01:33 PM on August 29
Hey,the Sox won it all 2 years ago. Now, they can wait another 85 years or so.Its someone elses turn. Detroit, maybe?
posted by sickleguy at 01:40 PM on August 29
Well the Tigers won it in 1984, so using your logic, they need to wait another 64 years huh?
posted by jerseygirl at 01:45 PM on August 29
I don't know if it's still the case but before 2004, there seemed to be a sort of connection with the cubs. In 2003 everyone was talking about a cubs/red sox world series, but I'm not sure how many people would want to see that happen. They were both good guys in my book and who would want to see one beat the other. It's much better to beat a bad guy (YANKEES!!!). This year is over for us, which is sad, but I'll stop feeling sorry for myself until the cubs win it all. You guys deserve to be next.
posted by kire at 02:20 PM on August 29
I hear a fat lady warming up.
posted by dbt302 at 02:21 PM on August 29
Hey,the Sox won it all 2 years ago. Now, they can wait another 85 years or so.Its someone elses turn. Detroit, maybe? Not a chance if they keep on playing as poor as they have been.
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 02:22 PM on August 29
I hear a fat lady warming up. In relation to . . .
posted by yerfatma at 03:02 PM on August 29
Looks like Boston may already be gearing up for next season.... And heres that fat lady everyones so crazy about....
posted by Kendall at 03:32 PM on August 29
Well the Tigers won it in 1984, so using your logic, they need to wait another 64 years huh? God lets hope not. I'd be 114 and I don't plan on living that long!
posted by commander cody at 05:12 PM on August 29
And heres that fat lady everyones so crazy about.... DAMN! Looks like my first wife!
posted by commander cody at 05:13 PM on August 29
If the Sox can get anyone substantial for Wells, AAA or better, than I don't care how many games out they are its a good move. The only 43 year-old worth anything is Roger Clemens. And even Clemens is a stretch. If you can win this year than great but whenever you admit to yourself as an organization that you can't win this year than its time to build for next year.
posted by kyrilmitch_76 at 06:33 PM on August 29
the sox thought they had it all in the bag once they won in 2004, now its 2 years later and nothing good has come since then, its just them being big-headed. I'm enjoying every single minute of their problems, because thats what comes to them for being cocky. If there ever was a curse, it's sure coming back now. For all the Red Sox fans, have a nice time waiting it out. In the meantime you can watch the Yankees in the playoffs
posted by mars314 at 06:50 PM on August 29
hi Mars314. Welcome. So you don't get off to more of a wrong foot here... Feel free to read the Sportsfilter guidelines. These parts may be of certain interest to you, in particular. Take the time to put thought and substance into your posts and comments. Help SportsFilter maintain its reputation as a thoughtful community with discussion a cut above the typical sports site. and SportsFilter is not a fan board. If your idea of discussion is "yankees suck, red sox rule," SportsFilter is not for you. Again, welcome and I hope you want to be a part of our community.
posted by jerseygirl at 07:03 PM on August 29
Oh burn mars314!!! You sure told all of us Sox fans what's what. The Red Sox DID have it all in the bag in 2004. If a screenwriter came up with that script, nobody would have believed it. Forgive us for being excited about it. Injuries to half the Red Sox is what comes of the fans being cocky? By that logic, every player in the Yankee organization should be limping around with casts on both legs. Yankees fans accusing Sox fans of cockiness is like Narcissus dissing Job for being self-centered. I'm glad you're enjoying David Ortiz' heart problems. What a joy for all of us that you registered with this site just in time to share these insightful comments...
posted by Venicemenace at 07:10 PM on August 29
Ah, I see JG took the classy route. Sorry for being a bit touchy on this issue. Two words: Reggie Lewis.
posted by Venicemenace at 07:13 PM on August 29
God lets hope not. I'd be 114 and I don't plan on living that long! Well at least they've won something in your lifetime. Unlike the amazing Lions who seem to be just as dismal as ever.
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 07:15 PM on August 29
I'm glad you're enjoying David Ortiz' heart problems. I almost fell out of my chair- nice one venicemenace. ; )
posted by Kendall at 07:25 PM on August 29
I appreciate the change in moniker, Kendall.
posted by Venicemenace at 07:30 PM on August 29
the red sox forfitted their playoff spot as soon as the last out was recorded in the five game slaughtering of bostons beloved BoSox. One huge difference between the yanks and sox is thee yankees scrubs and back ups can hold down the fort and more in the midst of key injuries, (i wont even go in to the performance by general management at the deadline, cough, ABREU, LIDLE, WILSON, FASANO, cough) where as guys like lopez, lester, kapler, cora etc. can't do much more than watch baseballs flying by them- by them in the field and by them at the plate. STRIKE 3, THE REDSOX ARE OUT OF THE PLAYOFFS!!
posted by bronxbomber at 07:53 PM on August 29
Also, this is the Redsox first real expierience with key injuries at critical times in a while and for that they should consider themselves lucky.
posted by bronxbomber at 07:57 PM on August 29
bronxbomber... feel free to apply the note I sent to mars314 to yourself. Just save me the typing. Also... you've been here long enough to know better.
posted by jerseygirl at 08:17 PM on August 29
Wow, until now I thought the Red Sox got hit by a bad patch of injuries on a not-too-bad team. Good thing you showed up to tell us how things are.
posted by yerfatma at 08:18 PM on August 29
As much as I hate the tone and logic of bronxbomber (the name alone makes me think of some arrogant kid who escaped from the 70's) I have to admit that you might be right. Sometimes it just isn't your year, now whether or not K-rod and Lidle (4.74 era with Philly, 4.15 with NY) can admit that this isn't their year is another story.
posted by kyrilmitch_76 at 08:25 PM on August 29
What part of Bronxbomber's frothing-at-the-mouth soliloquy did you find apt, kyrilmitch? The trenchant observation that the 5-game sweep ended the Red Sox' playoff hopes? I guess you guys have never heard of the wild card. (Not that I think the Sox will take that either, but that's got a lot more to do with the fact that the whole team is laid up than that 5-game set.) The laughable business about the difference stemming from the Yankees' "scrubs" being better than the Sox'? Dude, the entire fricking team is on the DL. That is NOT comparable to losing two elderly outfielders when you've got an extra $100 million worth of budget to pad the roster with quality backups and eat other teams' bad contracts. Or perhaps the dis on Alex Cora's defensive skills? Give me a break. And I look forward to reminding Bronxbomber of his trashing of Jon Lester over the next decade or so. That's gonna be awesome. No, it must have been the observation that for some teams, 2006 is not their year to win the championship. Insightful and marvelous!!
posted by Venicemenace at 08:34 PM on August 29
Venicemenace, 2 elderly outfielders? a little bit of a stretch. 2 100+ RBI guys. Anyway, Posado been battling injury, A-Rods had a virus for a week or two, Pavano just got injured AGAIN, Farnsworth has had a bad back all year, CANO just got back after getting hurt around the all-star break, and Mussina always has back trouble. Un-expected starters/contributers:Melky Cabrea, Sal Fasano, Arron Guiel, Ron Vallone, Craig Wilson, Procter who pitches virtually every day, Andy Phillips, Bubba Crosby, & Bernie Williams (huge help! and he wasnt evenn gonna come back and wasn't expecting any playing time.)
posted by bronxbomber at 10:36 PM on August 29
By the way, of course Lester will be a good pitcher in years to come. i just wish you didnt distort my comment so that you thought i was denying the fact that Lester is a promising kid but that doesnt mean he has contributed this year and we both know he, along with the rest of the bullpen haven't done so great.
posted by bronxbomber at 10:43 PM on August 29
I appreciate the change in moniker, Kendall. I think we all do, thanks again, Kendall.
posted by tommytrump at 10:45 PM on August 29
And I look forward to reminding Bronxbomber of his trashing of Jon Lester over the next decade or so. I'm not so sure that Lester will be anything other than a league average pitcher going forward. Now a cheap league average pitcher is a good thing in terms of giving a team league average performance for a low price (thus increasing payroll flexibility, etc.), but I just haven't seen a lot in terms of Lester's performance this year or his projectability to suggest that he will be a star. Ultimately, he may not even be better than Anibal Sanchez, who the Sox gave up in the Beckett deal.* *I believe any or all of this may come back to haunt me via yerfatma's predictions database, but by that point I will own Sportsfilter and will drop the banhammer on those that dare defy me
posted by holden at 11:11 PM on August 29
I firmly maintain, as I have on other threads, that the Yankees' capacity to sustain injuries to their stars is much, much greater than other teams because they have WAY more depth and can always grab the Abreus of the world when they need them. That said -- Of course it's true that Sheffield and Matsui are great players - in particular I have a lot of respect for Godzilla and I am always nervous when Sheff bats against my team. Losing them has been a setback, sure, but if you look at the Yankee lineup on any given day, it's still basically an all-star team. Look at the Red Sox lineup in recent days. Mark Loretta at DH!?!? It's not even a close comparison. When injuries strike, other teams are screwed, but the Yanks roll on because they have a ton of veterans and can always eat a huge contract. That's not a mortal sin, but I object when people want to give them undeserved credit. Of course you have to give credit to one of the best manager-GM combos in all of baseball...those guys are spectacular at their jobs. It's not 100% about the budget. As far as Lester goes, Bronxbomber, what you said was "Lester...can't do much more than watch baseballs fly by [him]...in the field". While this is not exactly "Lester is worthless" it's in the neighborhood, and you can't expect me to read your mind and know that you think he's a quality arm going forward, as I do. So BB, I will not hold it over your head when he becomes an ace, as Holden has stepped forward to claim that responsibility. Mostly, though, I simply got steamed at this Hoo-Rah Yankee boasting on a thread about David Ortiz' heart problems. If Derek Jeter got cancer you would NOT find me on the thread saying "HELL YEAH, YANKEES SUCK!!!". And I would openly denounce any Red Sox fan who did anything of the sort.
posted by Venicemenace at 11:35 PM on August 29
I totally agree with your last paragraph esspecially. I hate all the crap about yankees suck or redsox suck or HA HA your player is seriously injured or anything of the sort.
posted by bronxbomber at 11:41 PM on August 29
by the way the only one who is not a fan of boston or ny (holden) agreed with me!:))
posted by bronxbomber at 12:28 AM on August 30
the red sox forfitted their playoff spot as soon as the last out was recorded in the five game slaughtering of bostons beloved BoSox. No they didn't. Boston losing 5 games to the yankees was the least of their problems. Everything that could go wrong has. You do realize that before the yankee series the sox were swept by the royals, right? Since you're a yankee fan you also realize that take away the sox sweep and the yankees have been playing losing baseball, right? The yankees may very well step it up coming down the stretch. But basing yankee success on sweepting the sox is misleading. The sox have collapsed. It was happening before the yankee series and after. A-Rods had a virus for a week or two That's the funniest thing I've read on sportsfilter in a while.
posted by justgary at 01:55 AM on August 30
by the way the only one who is not a fan of boston or ny (holden) agreed with me!:)) Agreed with what? He said he felt Lester would be a league-average pitcher. You said, and I can't help but quote, " . . . guys like lopez, lester, kapler, cora etc. can't do much more than watch baseballs flying by them- by them in the field and by them at the plate. STRIKE 3, THE REDSOX ARE OUT OF THE PLAYOFFS!!" (I will leave it as an exercise to the reader to compare and contrast this statement with "I hate all the crap about yankees suck or redsox suck . . . ") Either way, there's a decent chance holden's wrong, given Jon Lester is 22. We'll put it into the books and see how it works out.
posted by yerfatma at 06:06 AM on August 30
I hate all the crap about yankees suck or redsox suck or HA HA your player is seriously injured or anything of the sort. Yeah? Then don't do it.
posted by jerseygirl at 06:35 AM on August 30
*I believe any or all of this may come back to haunt me via yerfatma's predictions database I'm not currently in that database and I feel kinda left out, so here goes... If you live in or around Boston prep yourself, once again, for another off-season of Manny trade rumors. There will be a lot of wind and eventually ESPN will be leading with it. But you know what's gonna happen? Nothing. No way. The Red Sox need him to win and no one is gonna change that.
posted by YukonGold at 07:22 AM on August 30
I'm not putting that in. Too easy of a win. Give me some crazy, ill-informed EPL prediction and I'll throw you a bone. If you know what I mean.
posted by yerfatma at 07:44 AM on August 30
I'm not currently in that database and I feel kinda left out, so here goes... Here's another couple. Dan Shaugnessy writes a column stating how letting Damon go was the beginning of another curse, let's call it the Curse of the Idiots. Boston Dirt Dogs has a 72 point font headline stating that the whole team except for Ortiz, Varitek, Schilling and Papelbon need to go. Cycle of reactionary, fatalistic and self-loathing coverage by Boston media continues. Wash, rinse and repeat.
posted by holden at 07:44 AM on August 30
I'm not putting that in. Too easy of a win. c'mon. if I'm wrong it'll sound brilliant. The only EPL prediction I can make is that after 3 weeks I have no chance in the SpoFi Fantasy League. Dan Shaugnessy writes a column...the whole team except for Ortiz, Varitek, Schilling and Papelbon need to go The CHB is dead to me. And there's no way Theo can find enough four team deals to protect all his prospects and turn over 21 of the 25 man roster.
posted by YukonGold at 07:54 AM on August 30
when you've got an extra $100 million worth of budget to pad the roster with quality backups and eat other teams' bad contracts If that's the reason for the Yankees' success (as many Sox fans like to claim), what's stopping Sox management from doing the same thing?
posted by qbert72 at 07:55 AM on August 30
what's stopping Sox management from doing the same thing That's probably not a question you're looking for an answer on but, I honestly think they feel they're better than that. Couple that with not sharing the desire to spend 200M and they are where they are. My greater issue is that of late they've done a pretty poor job of spending their money. A lot of it is dead, either being shipped directly to another team or sitting on the bench/dl trying to be avoided due to lack of production. The Red Sox ills weren't being fixed by spending more money either at the beginning of the season or the trade deadline. The Yankees success in spite of the injuries they've had isn't because they have overpaid backups, it's the strength of the other 7 starters that aren't hurt. Melky Cabrera and Andy Phillips aren't exactly getting their own episodes on MTV Cribs.
posted by YukonGold at 09:06 AM on August 30
I honestly think they feel they're better than that. Oof. I honestly think they're trying to run a profitable franchise and one of their goals is to stay under the luxury tax threshold. The Sox have boatloads of cash compared to all other teams and a revenue stream that might let them go toe-to-toe with the Yanks. I don't think they care too and they have the luxury of casting themselves as Flinty Yankees (i.e., New Englanders) which works in the region in spite of managements' boatloads of cash and carpetbagger status.
posted by yerfatma at 10:17 AM on August 30
The Yankees success in spite of the injuries they've had isn't because they have overpaid backups, it's the strength of the other 7 starters that aren't hurt. Listen to him, he speaks the truth. If the Jays lose two starters of Matsui/Sheffield quality (say, Wells and Rios), they flounder. If the A's lose two starters of that quality (say, Chavez and Thomas), they flounder. If the Twins lose two starters of that quality (say, Morneau and Mauer), they flounder. The Yankees just patch the holes (with terrible players, but MLB/AAA quality nonetheless) and keep on rolling with the healthy stars (Posada, Giambi, ARod, Jeter, Damon).
posted by grum@work at 11:31 AM on August 30
I was going to FPP it, but we seem to have reached some sort of quota of Yankees and Red Sox FPPs the past few days, so here is an article from Baseball Prospectus assessing whether Papelbon should stay as a reliever or be moved to a starter. (I think that article is free content; forgive me if it's not.) While the article is somewhat inconclusive as to the question at hand (it appears there will be follow-up articles on the issue), I think the inquiry is headed in the direction of concluding that Papelbon is best off as a reliever, contra my suggestion here.
posted by holden at 11:51 AM on August 30
Best wishes to David Ortiz. If the Red Sox make it or not to the postseason is not an issue. The issue is Ortiz' health. My prayers are with him and his family. Hope the Red Sox can turn it around quickly. I'm a Braves fan and this has been a dissapointing season for all of us, but hey, we still have a shot at the Wild Card, maybe the Red Sox have to strive for it too.
posted by sharpshooter007 at 12:07 PM on August 30
The Yankees just patch the holes (with terrible players, but MLB/AAA quality nonetheless with a minor league system that is deeper than anybody wants to give them for) and keep on rolling with the healthy stars (Posada, Giambi, ARod, Jeter, Damon)and the really good replacements they've had waiting in Columbus all along. Fixed that. 11 of the 25 guys on the Yankees roster are home grown. 6 of their 13 position players. When the Yanks had no solution at 2B last year with Womack -- up pops Cano. When the Yankees rotation was taking a beating with Wright and Pavano last year -- up pops Wang. (Hm. Yeah. Well.) When Torre wasn't sure how his bullpen was going to shape up coming out of spring training -- Scott Proctor stepping up. Matsui to DL -- up springs Melky Cabrera, who is not only not "terrible" or "MLB/AAA quality," but has become almost as popular in New York as Matsui himself. Mussina goes on the DL and now here is Jeff Karstens. Enough with the "Yankees can compensate for having garbage at two positions" or "it's a roster of overpaid backups." While, yes, they have the luxury of Bernie as a backup, and have had one or two "experiments" that haven't been the solution, it's the much-maligned and wildly underrated Yankee farm system that has been saving their fat from year-to-year.
posted by BullpenPro at 12:09 PM on August 30
BullpenPro, I love your stuff. Just sayin'.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 01:22 PM on August 30
posted by bronxbomber at 01:26 PM on August 30
Oh yeah, and then there's this.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 01:30 PM on August 30
BullpenPro - Thank you very much for your post! I'm so sick of everyone saying that the Yankees just fill in the gaps with money players and keep rolling on. The truth is that they have been one of the best franchises at using their farm system to "grow" MLB-level players. And then they've been using those players to fill in most of the gaps. Yes, they do use the cash when they have to (or want to), but the majority of their "fill-ins" have been from their farm system. And these "fill-ins" have turned into very good MLB players.
posted by BigTallChris at 01:49 PM on August 30
BullpenPro, I don't think I was trying to insinuate that they're "garbage players". I think you'll admit that it's a step down from all of the players who are not available though. Their farm system certainly hasn't failed them in any way, they have good players who have contributed when needed. But to dismiss the talent available with the remaining frontline players seems silly. I totally agree with grum and I don't think it's an attack on the Yankees farm system. If they had Tony Womack instead of Andy Phillips, you'd probably see worse results. on preview: I'm so sick of everyone saying that the Yankees just fill in the gaps with money players and keep rolling on. Ok. Seriously. Read from qberts post down. No one is saying that.
posted by YukonGold at 01:50 PM on August 30
Although...Bobby Abreu doesn't hurt in one of those corner outfield spots. Pretty sure he's not a Yankee product. Sorry, it's a snarky comment but I had to do it
posted by YukonGold at 01:57 PM on August 30
Someone up thread said that the yankees lost two 100 rbi players. If that were the sox, you'd know it was ortiz and manny. With the yankees it could be one of about 6 players. So it's a little bit of both. The yankees farm system has produced in key situations, but it pales in comparison to the amazing allstar lineup they've got starting. up springs Melky Cabrera, who is not only not "terrible" or "MLB/AAA quality," but has become almost as popular in New York as Matsui himself. Being a star has little to do with his production. He's a corner outfielder with an ops of 766. In new york, surrounded by talent, he's the melk man. In boston, at this point, he'd be just another average player on a team that can't score runs.
posted by justgary at 02:18 PM on August 30
Now Coco Crisp is hurt and a late scratch from the lineup. The whole injury thing is getting almost comical. If a meteor fell from the heavens, crushed the team bus and killed everyone on board, at this point, I wouldn't be surprised.
posted by jerseygirl at 03:05 PM on August 30
Yukon: I think you'll admit that it's a step down from all of the players who are not available though. The club that has a better player in reserve than the player that went down is one poorly run club. Of course the reserve players are a step down -- that's why they're "reserve players." That said, though -- 21 year old Melky Cabrera just might eclipse a few people before his career is through. Unfortunately, it's almost certainly going to be on another club. I wasn't going after your comment as much as I was Grum's, who took your point a step further when he said "terrible players." I object to that. If that isn't how you feel, we have no beef here. There's no argument that the six-to-seven regulars from Opening Day who are still filling their slots are All-Stars, and good enough to carry a team. There's no argument that the Yankees do catch more breaks by way of their loose purse-strings with the frequent Abreu-like additions. But there was a long break between the injuries and the Wilson and Abreu deals. And that break was filled by solid performances by home grown not-at-all-terrible players. Sorry to hear about your Spo-Fi fantasy team. I was supposed to have a Spo-Fi fantasy team, but somebody canceled the whole season on me. It's a snarky comment, but I had to do it. justgary: Being a star has little to do with his production. In Boston, you can attain star-status with mediocre performance on the field. (Kevin Millar jumps to mind.) In New York, I find that to be a more difficult accomplishment. If you're a star in New York, chances are you are winning games on the field with your play. Melky has a .362 OBP, he walks as often as he strikes out (42/42), he has 11 stolen bases, he's made some spectacular and game-saving plays in the outfield, he leads the AL in outfield assists, and he has as many walk-off home runs as some better paid players on the club (among his several clutch RBIs). I'll admit that his AVG and OBP are no better than Red Sox team average (in fact, they match them almost exactly) but the whole package is not average.
posted by BullpenPro at 03:10 PM on August 30
ptluigi, i'm a yankee fan too. but when i want to do the "rah rah, yankees win" thing i go here. might be a good idea if you do the same.
posted by goddam at 03:31 PM on August 30
Sorry goddam. The lack of punctuation was killing me.
posted by justgary at 03:45 PM on August 30
I was supposed to have a Spo-Fi fantasy team, but somebody canceled the whole season on me. It's a snarky comment, but I had to do it. Touché. I'll make sure to tell my son I need to add one more to the list. I promise my wife will not be pregnant come the time for next season's draft. Now THERE'S something for the prediction database On preview - But Gary, now it's all out of context. That's some serious annoyment.
posted by YukonGold at 03:50 PM on August 30
Now you're cooking with gas. I will add that. And I will make sure to tell her next time I see her in a group of people . . . "Did you know your husband has put your future pregnancy time table on the Internet? Yup, group of strangers. There's a guy, forget the name, 'something R gay', wants to know your phases of the moon."
posted by yerfatma at 03:58 PM on August 30
I wasn't going after your comment as much as I was Grum's, who took your point a step further when he said "terrible players." I object to that. Please don't tell me that "terrible" is an incorrect description for: Miguel Cairo (215 PA, .576 OPS) Nick Green (106 PA, .580 OPS) Terrance Long (40 PA, .444 OPS) Bubba Crosby (96 PA, .557 OPS) Kelly Stinnett (87 PA, .586 OPS) Andy Phillips (242 PA, .680 OPS) The one fill-in that has been good (almost great, really) is Aaron Guiel (99 PA, .838 OPS) and he was a waiver-wire pickup from KC. Cano was the projected starter, so he's not a "fill-in". Cabrera was in NY last year, and was projected to be the 5th OF from the beginning. His .764 OPS is acceptable as a 5th OF, but there is no way to suggest that he's "great" (at least, not yet) and it doesn't (currently) cut it as a 3rd OF. Williams as the 4th OF (394PA, .787 OPS) is not the Williams of old, but he gets the job done as a filler bat. As a starter, it's not good enough (hence the planned reduced role for him). Kevin Thompson might have got the job done (.881 OPS) but they only gave him 22PA I understand that you don't like people slagging your team (Yankees), and that some of the comments (they buy themselves a pennant) are uncalled for. But don't take it too far and attack someone for pointing out that the replacement players (or backups) for the Yankees are "terrible".
posted by grum@work at 04:18 PM on August 30
justgary: Someone up thread said that the yankees lost two 100 rbi players. If that were the sox, you'd know it was ortiz and manny. With the yankees it could be one of about 6 players. I had to go look at the stats to see how true this is. Based on last year's numbers, the Yankees had three 100-rbi players: A-Rod (130), Sheffield (123), and Matsui (116). Giambi was fourth with 87. Obviously, neither Sheffield nor Matsui will do that this year, although Giambi's there already (106), A-Rod's on track (93) and Jeter could make it (81). Last year the Red Sox had two 100-rbi players, and yeah, you guessed who: Ortiz with 148 and Ramirez with 144. This year Ortiz (121) and Ramirez (100) are both over, with Youkilis next at 65. So I guess what I would conclude from that is that the Yankee situation isn't nearly as rosy as you portray, but the Red Sox situation is just as dire as people are saying.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 04:23 PM on August 30
So I guess what I would conclude from that is that the Yankee situation isn't nearly as rosy as you portray Well, I did kind of just throw that up there, but looking at the projections on espn, and current stats, Jeter, arod, and giambi will be over 100. Damon is projected to have 92. Posada is projected to end with 87. Abreu is projected for 97. So if you add sheffield and matsui back in you have 8 players who are possible 100 rbi guys, posada the biggest reach with a projected 87. So, unless I'm missing something, my original statement should have been one of about "8 players".
posted by justgary at 04:47 PM on August 30
So if you add sheffield and matsui back in you have 8 players who are possible 100 rbi guys, posada the biggest reach with a projected 87. So, unless I'm missing something, my original statement should have been one of about "8 players". I dunno, gary. That's a helluva stretch, even if you're a yoga instructor. Sheffield and Matsui won't touch 100, but more important, there's no evidence that they'll come back to contribute at a 100-rbi rate. Who knows if Sheffield will even be back this year, and as for Matsui, he just started taking batting practice; who's to say that he'd be able to hit like he was in the spring, or last year? Damon? He's hit 73 rbis in four and a half months; he could conceivably hit 20 more in four weeks if he upped his rate, but 92 isn't 100. Posada? He's at 68; again, do the math, is he going to hit close to 20 rbis in the four weeks remaining, to come up with 87 that still isn't 100? Abreu I'll grant you; he's got 13 rbis in 28 games, and if you were to blow up the number of games he's played to 127 (A-Rod's, the most on the team), he'd be at about 92. And, as I said, Jeter might make it. Might. But that still adds up to no more than four. The others you mention are either coming off injuries and complete unknowns, or would have to step up their production considerably in the next four weeks.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 06:46 PM on August 30
Now you're cooking with gas. I will add that. Everything I do (I do it for you).
posted by YukonGold at 08:02 PM on August 30
I really hope that the heart problems that Ortiz is having don't turn out to be serious and he returns to the line up soon, as much as I hate to see him come to the plate in big situations I still appreciate the hitter he is. Then there's Manny...I can't imagine seeing Boston play without Manny in the line-up, he is another guy who is a great hitter. Besides, it is just more fun to watch when there is only 1 or 2 games between 1st and 2nd place in the standings no matter who is in the lead.
posted by ayankeefan at 10:21 PM on August 30
Who knows if Sheffield will even be back this year, and as for Matsui, he just started taking batting practice; who's to say that he'd be able to hit like he was in the spring, or last year? LBB, I completely agree with you. Sheffield is getting on in age and matsui is coming back from a wrist injury. But I was responded to a poster who, when comparing injury situations, said the yankees had lost two 100 rbi players. In fact, I've heard that all season from yankee fans. If you agree with me, that there's no guarantee those two players were worth 200 rbis, that's great, but I assure you that you're in the minority. So going with what the poster said it's pretty easy adding the three definite rbi guys and picking one more out of the multitude of other possibilities to make 6. I'm actually having a hard time figuring out where your argument with my statement is coming from. The yankees will have 2 definite 100 rbi guys, 2 probable, and a couple of more in the 90s. Those are all possible 100 rbi guys. The point being the yankees could lose 2 possible 100 rbi guys (possible...) and still win because they have the talent to overcome injuries. I don't think I painted a rosy picture at all, but a very realistic one. BullpenPro, I wasn't trying to put melky down. He seems a nice enough player, though I'm not as confident of his defense as you are. I'm just saying he can fit in well and help a yankee team full of talent. Melky on the sox, in the state they're in now, is a whole different story. As far as millar, he was out spoken, but I don't think many over rated his talent. And when what little talent he had left, he was gone. If melky is more popular than matsui, it's out of proportion to his contribution, at least at this point. If a meteor fell from the heavens, crushed the team bus and killed everyone on board, at this point, I wouldn't be surprised. Well, we had one healthy sub on the bench today, and lester could have cancer. A meteor could be a possibility.
posted by justgary at 11:33 PM on August 30
Maybe it's a Curse?
posted by yerfatma at 06:20 AM on August 31
43 used & new available from $0.85
posted by YukonGold at 07:21 AM on August 31
It was released a day or two later that the gimpy crow was snatched up by a larger bird off the field before the MSPCA could capture it. Apropros somehow. The fact that they are testing Jon Lester for cancer really pains me.
posted by jerseygirl at 08:11 AM on August 31
Lester has lymphoma. I'm sure this story will land as an FPP shortly, but since it's an ESPN story and very relevant to where this thread is heading, I figured I'd post it here. Fortunately, the brief details seem to imply that the condition is treatable with a reasonable chance of recovery. Here's more information on the condition. Get well, Jon.
posted by BullpenPro at 07:32 PM on September 01
Man, 22 years old...that's bad stuff. I so hate to see anyone get bit by cancer; it's a very personal vendetta. Here's hoping for a speedy and complete recovery.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 09:01 PM on September 01
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