FanDuel - WFBC

October 25, 2003

The Yankees lose! The-e-e-e-e Yankees lose!:

posted by Prince Valium to baseball at 10:05 PM - 68 comments

WOOO HOOOO!!!!! Josh Beckett is a beast!

posted by bcb2k2 at 10:10 PM on October 25

(Well, Prince, you beat me to the post, though my tone was going to be different.) The San Francisco Giants haven't won the World Series since 1954 (when they were in NY). The Chicago Cubs haven't won since 1908. The New York Yankees haven't won since way back in 2000. The Florida Marlins stopped all their dreams, and in the process won their second championship in 6 years. Congratulations. Now I'll sit back and let the Yankee haters pummel me, but I'm still wearing my NY cap. Thick and Thin, baby, just like great Red Sox fans and Cubs fans, who have had to endure far harsher defeats.

posted by msacheson at 10:12 PM on October 25

Yes!! And Beckett gave one of the best performances I've seen in a long time. First complete-game Series-ending win since Jack Morris in '91 (for my nostalgically beloved Twins). I wish it had been the Mets, but I'm just glad somebody beat the damn Yankees.

posted by languagehat at 10:13 PM on October 25

Ha!

posted by hincandenza at 10:14 PM on October 25

Decent Yahoo! Slideshow Was very annoying to watch Beckett pitch so well but I have to hand it to him, he stood up to the pressure, the 'mystique', and the three days' rest thing. No doubt he was awesome.

posted by billsaysthis at 10:14 PM on October 25

Now I'll sit back and let the Yankee haters pummel me, but I'm still wearing my NY cap. Thick and Thin, baby ... With the Yankees, it's more accurately described as thick and thick and thick and thick and thick and thick and thick and thick and thick and thick and thick and thick and thick and thick and thick and thick and thick and thick and thick and thick and thick and thick and thick and thick and thick and thick and thin. Don't even try to compete with the rest of us for your capacity to endure suffering. ;-).

posted by rcade at 10:18 PM on October 25

My tagline for this post would have been "Aura and Mystique, crash and burn" I was cheering for the Marlins, but I heartily booed when I saw the two men I hate the most in baseball standing together in one shot: Jeff Loria and Bud Selig. And I REALLY hate the FOX interviewers! Don't even try to compete with the rest of us for your capacity to endure suffering. ;-). While I don't have 80+ years of suffering, I would like to point out that as a fan of the Leafs (36 years and counting) and the Bills (4 straight losses in the championship game), I do have to agree that being a Yankee fan isn't that tough.

posted by grum@work at 10:23 PM on October 25

and on the 9th day, she rejoiced!

posted by jerseygirl at 10:33 PM on October 25

I've got the NY cap too, but it's blue and orange. Talk about suffering. Despite the fact that the Cubs and Sox were home drinking beer, this was a decent Series. Not as good as '01 or '02, but certainly better than '98, '99, or '00. Congrats to the Marlins, and especially McKeon, who looks like he is having the time of his life, and Pudge, who is about as good a guy as there is in all of baseball.

posted by Prince Valium at 10:38 PM on October 25

I was real excited for Pudge. I was especially psyched for Beckett though. Yeah, I'll put in my opposition to Yankee fans trying to align with the suffering of cubs and red sox fans. Psssh!

posted by jerseygirl at 10:45 PM on October 25

and now New York faces an uncertain future with many changes imminent: volatile owner George Steinbrenner is bound to make extensive changes to a franchise that is just starting to list, because of advancing age and increasingly impulsive personnel decisions. First off, nice editorializing in a news story. Second, all of the sudden the Yankees suck? This guy needs a check-up from the neck up. Having said that, I was at a Rockapella concert this evening and didn't watch the game. The band, which is from New York, though, did work in the score (two-zip) into one of the songs they were singing. They were also very sad afterthe show. Viva la Beckett!

posted by wfrazerjr at 11:11 PM on October 25

Congrats Marlins. Helluva a playoff run by the uber-underdogs...though as a somewhat-purist the fact they have two rings and have never won their division irks me a bit. Still adapting to the wildcard I guess. That said, I just have to head this off at the pass....When the Marlins start losing players, even next year, it is not a "fire sale". It will be nothing like '97 where all-stars are given up for a stick of gum and a bag of bats. It will just be a small market team not being able to keep everyone. When these young/rookie stars contracts are up, many of them will be gone as well. Simple economics. Repeat after me "It's just normal turnover, not a fire sale."

posted by pivo at 11:21 PM on October 25

Clutch hitting, good defense, and great pitching. They deserve it. Going for the throat in game 6 instead of waiting for a game 7 was brilliant. The playoffs as a whole were great. I know several fans who hadn't watched baseball in a while get into the post season. Hopefully it shows how exciting baseball can be without changing the game to seven innings. I'm glad the marlins won, and I do feel bad for several yankees that I actually like. Still, it warms my heart that clemens and wells aren't leaving on a world series win. Couldn't happen to two better guys. All in all I think the yankees should just be happy they got to the world series. Consider it a gift ;) Can't wait until spring training.

posted by justgary at 11:29 PM on October 25

DBacks in 01. Angels in 02. Marlins in 03. 3 years in a row, a wildcard took it home.

posted by jerseygirl at 11:34 PM on October 25

Beckett pitched great, but the Yankees should have wrapped this up in Florida, but they failed to hit in the clutch, Oh well. I would never compare a Yankee loss in the World Series to the misery Red Sox and Cub's fans go through, we Yankee fans have tasted the sweet drink called victory many times, and it makes these rare losses so much eaiser to swallow. King George better relax , he needs to realize that sometimes teams just play better then his and all the money in the world isn't going to change this. If George starts pulling the same shit he did in the 80's I won't be watching baseball at all. I can just see it now Gene "Stick" Michael is brought in, he signs every half-assed free agent out there and the Yankees end up with no team unity, and fail to make the playoffs. If George is smart he keeps Cashman and Torre, resigns Pettite, grabs Millwood, and Gurardo in free agency, trades Boone for a strong package of minor leaguers, this team doesn't need a makeover, it just nees a touchup. Of course George has never been good at being rational. After the Angels and Marlins won the last two World Series I don't want to hear anymore bitching about how unfair it is that some teams spend more then others that meme is dead.

posted by jbou at 11:41 PM on October 25

trades Boone for a strong package of minor leaguers How about for a 'weak' package of minor leaguers? Boone looked awful the entire playoffs, minus the homerun off of a floating knuckler. I don't want to hear anymore bitching about how unfair it is that some teams spend more then others that meme is dead. If you were starting a team would you rather start with a 100 million dollar payroll or a 40? 100 of course. Money isn't the be all end all, but it does help. It doesn't guarantee winning, but it doesn't hurt. (and I'm not just pointing at the yankees...the redsox have a big payroll also) I won't be watching baseball at all. I can just see it now Gene "Stick" Michael is brought in, he signs every half-assed free agent out there and the Yankees end up with no team unity, and fail to make the playoffs. Not making the playoffs? The horrors! Come on now jbou. Don't jump ship now. Stay loyal. Funny things can happen on your way to 'another world championship'.

posted by justgary at 11:49 PM on October 25

Jerseygirl... D-Backs won the NL West in '01 and had home field in the series.

posted by pivo at 11:50 PM on October 25

justgary, I lived through "irrational George" in the 80's when I was a kid, and now that i'm an adult I'm not going to deal with. If King George goes nuts I go AWOL on baseball, the Yankees are at their best when George just kicks back and says nothing.

posted by jbou at 11:55 PM on October 25

If George starts pulling the same shit he did in the 80's I won't be watching baseball at all. Congratulations Jbou. It's not often that you see someone self-identify themselves as a fair-weather fan.

posted by Mike McD at 12:07 AM on October 26

Congratulations Jbou. It's not often that you see someone self-identify themselves as a fair-weather fan. I enjoy watching sports and I have teams I root for, but I don't get a cut of the championship paycheck so if things aren't looking good I am free to go enjoy something else. It's you nutjob ideolouge fans that make me laugh, you all act like you are playing the game for christsakes. I don't think I've mentioned this here before, but I played college football at Syracuse, and I noticed something when I was playing, some of the fans would take losses harder then the actual people who played the game.

posted by jbou at 12:28 AM on October 26

Jerseygirl... D-Backs won the NL West in '01 and had home field in the series. then i was privy to erroneous conversation last night! i stand corrected! my bad.

posted by jerseygirl at 12:34 AM on October 26

It's you nutjob ideolouge fans that make me laugh Wow, jbou, you must get a lot of nosebleeds from having to look down at us nutjobs so much. Actually, you're in the perfect position. There's always some bandwagon you can jump on. Tell me, are you going for the Titans now? Or, are you more of a Cowboys kinda guy? Also, if losses during your playing career didn't affect you, I assume you didn't play much. I didn't get past high school sports, but I took it pretty hard whenever we lost. Anyway, back to the actual topic of this post. The Marlins, as pointed out, have now won 2 of the past 7 World Series without winning their own division (pretty much owned by the usually high rolling Atlanta Braves). Personally, I'll take the championships however they come, but sure, it'd be nice for them to get a "purist-style" championship, complete with an NL East title. Oh well, whatever works... Now, back to my fellow nutjob ideologues. If only my Jags would beat the Titans tomorrow, it would be the perfect sports nutjob weekend.

posted by bcb2k2 at 01:36 AM on October 26

Although this post is veering off topic, I'm going to come to the defense of the fair-weather fan. With some exceptions (Cubs, Red Sox, Yankees, and many others) there is no loyalty anymore. Players aren't loyal to teams, teams aren't loyal to players or fans, owners aren't loyal to cities. As for players being loyal to fans, that's the biggest joke of all. It's your money, if the team doesn't want to pay to field a winner you have every right to choose to spend it elsewhere. The Seattle Mariners have boosted ticket prices every year, they charge $6 for a 12 ounce domestic beer, and never go out and get helpful free agents pre-pennant race. Next year, dudes are going to be breaking their legs jumping off the bandwagon. Now, as to the topic at hand, the Marlins were excellent, especially Pudge and McKeon and Beckett, oh Beckett, what a special goddammed performance that was. Just think how good he'll be when he learns to play baseball! The Yankees really really seemed to be having a hard time defining the strike zone. Jeter and Boone both swung at pitches bill-of-the-cap high while Bernie and Posada watched pitches right on the plate. And Jeter, fucking a, he sucked ass today.

posted by vito90 at 01:38 AM on October 26

Sportsfilter: Just a bunch of nutjobs.

posted by justgary at 01:41 AM on October 26

Also, if losses during your playing career didn't affect you, I assume you didn't play much. I didn't get past high school sports, but I took it pretty hard whenever we lost I never said I didn't take the loss hard, but some fans acted like the loss was the end of the world. There's always some bandwagon you can jump on. Tell me, are you going for the Titans now? Or, are you more of a Cowboys kinda guy? I'm a Steeler fan and I'll always be a Steeler fan, but I'm not going to get all upset when they lose, and I don't act like I've won something when they win. I follow sports because I enjoy the games, and I've taken a more mature approach to sports since I've grown older, but I still enjoy getting a dig in on the red sox zealotts, that never gets tired. BTW, the Yankees may have lost the world series, but red sox fans your team didn't even get the chance to lose the world series did they? I wonder if David Ortiz was playing golf this week? I wonder if Pedro is back home in the DR? How about the double loser couple Mia and Nomar, I wonder if they licked each others wounds?

posted by jbou at 01:45 AM on October 26

I follow sports because I enjoy the games, and I've taken a more mature approach to sports BTW, the Yankees may have lost the world series, but red sox fans your team didn't even get the chance to lose the world series did they? I wonder if David Ortiz was playing golf this week? I wonder if Pedro is back home in the DR? How about the double loser couple Mia and Nomar, I wonder if they licked each others wounds? Yeah, I can see the maturity. Really jbou, I don't know you personally. You may be married with 3 kids and a pillar of the community. But those comments sound like those of a 12 year old kid on the playground. Who else on this board has/would make such a barrage of nonsensical rhetoric? No one. Just you. I mean, "How about the double loser couple Mia and Nomar"? Are you serious? That's a hilarious statement both in content and wording. Read it out loud. It'll make you laugh too, I promise. You love the yankees, but if they don't make the playoffs you won't. They beat the red sox and then they're 'off to another championship'. Then when they lose you claim everyone else cares too much and are 'nutjobs'. Take the loss like a man! They lost to the marlins on their own field. Clemens is gone, Wells is gone, Pettitte might be gone, Boone is horrid, Bernie Williams can't throw any more, Giambi is going to have off season surgery, you have no middle relief, and Zimmer doesn't even want to be a yankee anymore. On the bright side the yankees have a solid manager who knows how to pull a pitcher, something the red sox sadly lack. When the red sox lost we blamed our manager, and you said we were whining. When the yankees lost you deal with it by hurling playground insults. BTW, the Yankees may have lost the world series, but red sox fans your team didn't even get the chance to lose the world series did they? You know, I played enough sports to know you either win it or you don't. Second place is no place. You either win or lose, and after the season the marlins are the champions and the yankees are also rans, just like the red sox. Both are in the 'wait till next year' camp. Was the loss really that tough on you? It looks like you took it pretty hard. Just take a deep breath. It'll be o.k. I promise. Spring training will be here before you know it and I'm sure Georgie will have bought you the best players money can buy before the season starts. You can make it, I know you can! (and remember, it's only a game.) ;)

posted by justgary at 02:32 AM on October 26

Ah bollocks. I fell asleep at the bottom of the third. Damn time zones. Well done to the Fish though.

posted by squealy at 05:28 AM on October 26

I hate to see all of these personal attacks interrupt the really nice dance party we were having on the Yankees' grave.

posted by rcade at 08:59 AM on October 26

he attacks if his team wins. he attacks if his team loses. he brings nothing to the SpoFi table besides taunts, namecalling and poor sportsmanship. and it's getting old.

posted by jerseygirl at 09:14 AM on October 26

Well, the Marlins were the one team that could have made a Yankees fan out of me, and then end up being the winners. How appropriate. I still say Jeffrey Loria should be strung up alongside Bud Selig, though.

posted by Space Coyote at 09:37 AM on October 26

BTW, the Yankees may have lost the world series, but red sox fans your team didn't even get the chance to lose the world series did they? I wonder if David Ortiz was playing golf this week? I wonder if Pedro is back home in the DR? How about the double loser couple Mia and Nomar, I wonder if they licked each others wounds? Yes, this definitely sounds like a more mature approach to sports. Excellent job of contradicting yourself within a span of 4 lines, no SpoFi record! Oh, hi everyone.

posted by chuck cash at 09:43 AM on October 26

no = new. Not a good start.

posted by chuck cash at 09:43 AM on October 26

welcome to the team, chuck!

posted by jerseygirl at 09:44 AM on October 26

Did you all fail to read my whole comment? I follow sports because I enjoy the games, and I've taken a more mature approach to sports since I've grown older, but I still enjoy getting a dig in on the red sox zealotts, that never gets tired. See, I said I still like getting my digs in on red sox fans. Take the loss like a man! Uh gary, I gave credit where it was due in my first comment, and then I talked about how some fans are nutjobs, you all are chosing to focus on the nutjob statement. I should expect this from you all, because after the Red Sox lost there were a bunch of irrational Yankee hating threads and whiny red sox fan threads, and the title of the thread is not Marlins win it's the Yankees lose, no, you all aren't a bunch of zealotts. The Yankees got beat, they got beat because the Marlins hit in the clutch and the Yankees didn't, 0-12 with runners in scoring position doesn't win you the world series, but sitting here bitching about it gets me nowhere.

posted by jbou at 10:49 AM on October 26

I went to see Eddie Izzard in Boston last night. Coming home to find out the Marlins won was icing on the cake. jbou, sorry man. You're not a fan. You're not even a fair-weather fan. Just stop.

posted by yerfatma at 10:55 AM on October 26

Remember, fan is short for fanatic and, no matter what domain is referenced, fanaticism is irrational. So if you can't be irrational, you're not a fan. And if you are irrational, you don't have to make sense. As Shakespeare said: We few, we happy few, we band of brothers. And by brothers, I mean sisters too!

posted by billsaysthis at 11:38 AM on October 26

As much as it pained me to see the Yankees lose, i'm happy for McKeon, cause, well, he's from Jersey. South Amboy to be exact. Graduated from the same high school as fellow World Series winning manager Tom Kelly. Although Kelly grew up in neighboring Sayreville (my hometown:-).

posted by goddam at 01:51 PM on October 26

dirty jersey represent! good for the fish.....the magic is wearing off in yankee land. torre's job won't get easier.

posted by oliver_crunk at 07:21 PM on October 26

The Post Curse lives! One year and counting.

posted by staggernation at 09:53 PM on October 26

What's wrong with being an anti-Yankees zealot? To me, the Yankees of today are even more despicable because they're such a likeable bunch, aside from Clemens, Jeff Nelson, and Karim Garcia. I was watching the Series to see the Yankees lose. I never get tired of seeing the Yankees lose. If the Yankees break the all-time single-season losing record next season, I'll be disappointed about the 41 games they won.

posted by rcade at 05:57 AM on October 27

From my experience you're either a Yankee fan or you totally hate the Yankees. There aren't a whole lot of people who are indifferent to them. Something about the owner and the team that brings it out in people. So now I am waiting for Steinbrenner to go ape shit today and fire everyone. I'll be looking for him to set the stadium on fire, toss Cashman off the Brooklyn Bridge, stomp angrily through Times Square crashing through buildings, destroying cars and hopefully squashing that Carson Daly moron. He'll then grab a random blonde and climb to the top of the Empire State Building with her. That being said, the more I read about the Marlins, the more I get a nice warm fuzzy feeling about all of them. Such a sweet accomplishment for some of those guys being so young and all.

posted by jerseygirl at 06:26 AM on October 27

From my experience you're either a Yankee fan or you totally hate the Yankees. I'm a fan of Clemens, Matsui and Posada, but I don't like the Yankees. Does that really count? And I like Steinbrenner more than I do Loria. I'd rather have my owners egomaniacal and rich and spending than shifty, underhanded and cheap (re Loria and the Expos).

posted by grum@work at 07:23 AM on October 27

I heartily booed when I saw the two men I hate the most in baseball standing together in one shot: Jeff Loria and Bud Selig I didn't boo because I was too busy suppressing my gag reflex. But yeah.

posted by mbd1 at 09:04 AM on October 27

Okay, now why is it perfectly okay on this blog to jump up and down in celebration on the grave of the Yankees but, god forbid, someone do that when the Socks or Cubs lost and they would be banned for life and a pariah on Sportsfilter? (Yes, I'm overexaggerating, but I think the point is a fair one.)

posted by aacheson at 09:38 AM on October 27

the magic is wearing off in yankee land I'm afraid that you're right. Steinbrenner tried to make up for it with high-priced free agents (Giambi, Mussina, Contreras, Matsui) but he just couldn't recapture the spirit of the '96 - '00 teams. Something that I found in one of Mike Lupica's Daily News columns:

"It was said afterward that Torre saw Giambi limping and called him over. One of the Yankees said that if it was somebody like Paul O'Neill limping that night, he would have hidden from Torre before the game." Maybe Billy Beane and Mike James are wrong. Maybe character counts more than stats if you want to win a championship. When the Yankees lost theirs, they stopped winning.

posted by Jugwine at 09:41 AM on October 27

I don't consider jbou's statement that he'll stop watching a fair-weather statement. I would have a really hard time watching my idiot owner run wild and make stupid decisions damning the franchise too. And not supporting his foolishness is the only thing we can do to show our unhappiness. I'm quite worried that he's going to clean house only to screw things up for the next several years. This would of course put us in the pack with the rest of the league and their fans who have to suffer through that, but it's sort of foreign to us :) Plus, the combination of Yankee payroll and sucking would just give the Yankee haters fodder to be obnoxious to respectful fans like me every damn day. I don't want that. Anyway, I hope someone can calm him down and let him know that the absolute keys to keeping things in order are to do whatever he can to keep Cashman, Stottelmyre, and Pettitte around. Then he can worry about Mr. Strikeout, 3rd base, the outfield, and the bullpen. And I'd rather get some character guys back (hell, even keep Boone around for that. Brosius was never that outstanding with the bat either) than some more overpriced guys. Put the fun back in it for these guys and that'll make the biggest difference. Anyway, on topic, aside from Loria, this is a likeable marlin team that earned it and deserves it. I actually watched the celebration and felt happy for Beckett, Pudge, and McKeon. Good for them. Now I hope their cheapskate owner keeps them around (Lowell too), which would be a new concept for him.

posted by Bernreuther at 09:59 AM on October 27

"Rooting for the Yankees is like rooting for US Steel." I have to lump non-New York based Yankee fans with non-Manchester-based United fans. It's so frigging annoying. Like people who shop at the GAP.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 10:03 AM on October 27

Here's an interesting item from Doug Pappas on the Yankees long term salary outlook. They've got $377M in guaranteed money already over the next 7 seasons. Things could get very interesting in the Bronx this offseason. Link via Redbird Nation.

posted by mbd1 at 10:18 AM on October 27

Response to aacheson: Why, respect for the dead, of course (:-)) Understand how deep Chicago and Boston baseball roots are. The Cubs franchise has had a loyal fan base since the 1870s, Boston since the 1890's. Whereas the Yankees were not popular until Babe Ruth, and most of this current fandom is primarily bandwagon jumping since George Steinbrenner purchased the club and started winning championships. You can look it up.

posted by cg1001a at 10:57 AM on October 27

I have to lump non-New York based Yankee fans with non-Manchester-based United fans. It's so frigging annoying. Hey now, that's hardly fair. Some of us non-New York based fans are transplants -- people who grew up in NY and moved away. We're not the same people who follow the Yankees because they win. I cheered the bad Yankee teams of the late 80s and early 90s, should I now root for the Sox because I moved to New England?

posted by Jugwine at 11:05 AM on October 27

I'm a big sports fan. All you need to know about New York sports fans is this. 1) Now that the Knicks are bad MSG is about half full and 2) you can walk up on gamenight and buy tickets to the preseason NIT (which kicks off the college basketball season). That's another way of saying that overall New Yorkers aren't really into sports. You've got the biggest city in the US and the Knicks can't even fill MSG. I think there is just too much going on in New York for sports to hold the city's attention. If the teams are winning, that's great, but if they're not there's lot's of other stuff to do.

posted by Mike McD at 11:17 AM on October 27

cg - Steinbrenner bought the Yanks back in the early 70's, IIRC. That's an entire generation ago. (Compare to the guys who called in to sports talk radio a couple of years ago, claiming to be long time Diamondback fans.) Not to mention that the franchise won a slew of championships back in the late 40's, 50's, and early 60's - the formative years for legions of baby boomers.

posted by mbd1 at 11:33 AM on October 27

Just to pipe in, since I missed the game, Beckett was pretty amazing. I was watching and thinking about how Pedro Martinez couldn't finish the game. Beckett never seemed to get tired - and that final tag to end the game - that was a pretty sweet way for the baseball gods to end the game. A great show by a rising star.

posted by Joey Michaels at 11:50 AM on October 27

Sorry - not missed the game - "missed discussing the game here at an earlier date."

posted by Joey Michaels at 11:51 AM on October 27

> I was watching and thinking about how Pedro Martinez couldn't finish the game That'd be the difference between the arm on a 23 year old fastball pitcher and a 32 year old fast ball pitcher. Beckett was amazing but very few throw 95+ heat for 9 innings that late in their career. Hope the Marlins don't do another firesale - they were fun to watch through the playoffs (even if I rooted against them during the Giants and Cubs series).

posted by kokaku at 11:55 AM on October 27

I was watching and thinking about how Pedro Martinez couldn't finish the game. Very few throw a complete game nowadays, which explains why great middle relief is at a premium. Gone are the days of Luis Tiant throwing 170 pitches in an outing.

posted by jerseygirl at 12:19 PM on October 27

Pedro Martinez couldn't finish the game. Riiight. Good point. You take Josh Beckett in his prime and I'll take Pedro. Be interesting to see who wins more games. You do know Pedro once carried a perfect game into the 10th, right?

posted by yerfatma at 12:21 PM on October 27

mbd1 - I don't know how far you go back, but were there a lot of Yankee fans in New York during the years 1969 through 1973?

posted by cg1001a at 12:31 PM on October 27

The other obvious fact is that Pedro has had shoulder trouble. Joey, I'm not sure what point is. If your point was that a 23 year old Josh Beckett didn't tire as fast as a 32 year old Pedro who's had shoulder injuries, sure ... I don't think anyone's debating that. If you're implying that therefore Josh Beckett is a better pitcher ... that I (and I think most people) would disagree with.

posted by Mike McD at 12:37 PM on October 27

cg: I remember the sadness and horror that was out morning sports page back in those days. Mets and Knicks were decent but Yankees, Giants, Jets, Rangers sucked ass. No NASL yet, don't think the Nets were making much impact plus they were Long Island at the time (I was a tweener in Jersey). Mike McD: But if we limit the comparison to this year, then Pedro in his prime is not meaningful. Plus he had a pretty decent year overall, hard to say that at 32 he's passed his prime, and then you go back to Mr. Tiny leaving him in too long.

posted by billsaysthis at 12:56 PM on October 27

But if we limit the comparison to this year, then Pedro in his prime is not meaningful. What? That means I'm a better pitcher than Cy Young. Please give up on the baseball threads: you're not making any sense.

posted by yerfatma at 01:44 PM on October 27

cg - I'm part of the 1978 model year......baseball entered my consciousness ca. 1985 (Denkinger sucks). Suffering through a dry spell 30-35 years ago seems like a tough criterion for determining if you are a bandwagon fan or not. There's a huge group of people who aren't old enough to qualify. I guess you could run them through the late 80's - early 90's test to differentiate them. But what about 15 year old kids whose parents are Yankee fans? They haven't known a time when Joe Torre wasn't the manager.

posted by mbd1 at 01:53 PM on October 27

I cheered the bad Yankee teams of the late 80s and early 90s, should I now root for the Sox because I moved to New England? Had you moved from anywhere else? No. Because you still like the Yankees? By all means, switch to the Sox. :) As I told people who couldn't believe I still rooted for the Cardinals when the Rams carpetbagged their way into St. Louis a few years ago, "My grandma moved, and I didn't start loving the family that bought her house."

posted by wfrazerjr at 03:48 PM on October 27

What? That means I'm a better pitcher than Cy Young. Not to my way of thinking. Which is that if you want to talk about this year's games and their outcomes, then you need to talk about the players as they are this year to have any meaning. I don't think anybody (who meets the legal definition of sanity or even me) would ever suggest that Pedro at his best is not better than Beckett.

posted by billsaysthis at 04:13 PM on October 27

(Mike McD) If you're implying that therefore Josh Beckett is a better pitcher . . . But if we limit the comparison to this year, then Pedro in his prime is not meaningful. I don't think anybody would ever suggest that Pedro at his best is not better than Beckett. Well, you've run rings round me logically. What are you arguing for again?

posted by yerfatma at 04:33 PM on October 27

yerfatma: I'm after your sanity, just keep it up. Plus, all those statements only imply that I'm all about comparing apples to apples.

posted by billsaysthis at 06:52 PM on October 27

Sorry, I was not particularly clear in my Beckett/Martinez comparison. I realize that Pedro, in his prime, was a fantastic pitcher. I guess what I was trying to get at was that Beckett *is* entering his prime, while Martinez (while still an outstanding pitcher) is exiting his prime. I was thinking about how Beckett threw a great nine innings in a key game, while Martinez threw an amazing six innings in a key game. I didn't intend to compare careers, so much as to compare these two specific games in the last month. Yes, Martinez is 32 and has had shoulder problems. All the more reason he should have been gone after the sixth - or at least after the seventh. I think the former manager of the Sox was feeling nostalgic for the days when Martinez was Beckett's age and could pitch a ten inning no hitter. Heck, I am nostalgic for those days. Ultimately, Beckett pitching a nine inning shut out to win the World Weries, and then tagging the final runner out, just seems a little magical to me - magical in the way that the best games can be. Even though I'm not a great fan of either the Yanks or the Marlins, I enjoy a good game - and reflect on how my team did in comparison.

posted by Joey Michaels at 08:36 PM on October 27

I was watching the Series to see the Yankees lose. I never get tired of seeing the Yankees lose. If the Yankees break the all-time single-season losing record next season, I'll be disappointed about the 41 games they won. Ah, sweet music! You and me both, brother.

posted by languagehat at 04:02 PM on October 28

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