FanDuel - WFBC

August 18, 2009

ESPN: Favre Reaches Deal to Join Vikings: Three weeks after announcing that he wasn't joining the Vikings, Brett Favre is joining the Vikings in a one-year deal for $10 million to $12 million, ESPN's Chris Mortensen is reporting. Last month, Favre told BFF Peter King, "I thought I could make it through the season, though I wouldn't be 100 percent. But is that the way you want to enter a season?" Favre is flying from Mississippi to Minneapolis today and could potentially retire and unretire several times during the flight.

posted by rcade to football at 12:16 PM - 132 comments

From SI's Jon Heyman via twitter: "favre is clemens without roids. he never tells truth. 50 lashes with wet noodle for any fool who believed he was retired."

posted by justgary at 12:23 PM on August 18

As a Viking's fan, I'm sure this is just one more cruel way to beat me into submission.

I do hope he can pull it off.

posted by dviking at 12:28 PM on August 18

Thank You Sir...May I have another....

posted by MNJ1193 at 12:43 PM on August 18

Like a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that's not even there..I didn't see this one coming.

/laughing myself to sleep

posted by BornIcon at 12:51 PM on August 18

Say what you want about Favre's retirement flip flop. This is good for the Vikings, good for the fans, and good for Favre. I like it. He can make a big difference to this team. After watching the Vikings in pre season, I believe they have no chance to contend with Jackson as their QB. Favre give this good team just what they need to make a run at the division title, and beyond. There are no guarantees of course, but if Favre plays half as good as he can, this is a huge improvement for the Vikings. remember regardless of how things ended up last year. He went to a 4 and 12 team and if not for injury would have had them in the playoffs. The Vikings have way more talent than the Jets did, add to that the payback against the Packers and it has to be entertaining. Football is in the sell tickets entertainment business. First Vick and now Favre, I think this is shaping up to be a very interesting season.

posted by Atheist at 12:54 PM on August 18

I'm with you, Athiest. Two games against the Packers about a month apart, with the second in Green Bay. I'll watch!

posted by dusted at 01:08 PM on August 18

Anyone willing to take bets on whether Favre retires again by Week 6?

All right, I'm kidding (I think). As a noted Favre-hater, I'm not thrilled about this, but I guess we'll just have to make the most of it. The key is to get a lead...if you fall behind or it's close late, Favre might as well be wearing the other team's jersey for all the good he'll do you. On the bright side, given the Vikings' running game and defense, they should be able to get early leads quite often, and perhaps Favre won't try to win the game by himself so much.

My condolences to Sage Rosenfels. I think he'd have been perfectly adequate, and perhaps so beyond this year. Maybe next year, if he's not too pissed off with Vikings management to return.

posted by TheQatarian at 01:16 PM on August 18

I like it too. Favre is an entertaining QB and instantly makes the Vikes a ton better. I'm sure we'll hear from the crowd that is sick of Favre and his ever changing mind, but I could care less how often he retires and unretires as long as there is a team out there that wants him. Green Bay vs Minn should be very interesting this year.

I wonder if this will bring Madden out of retirement.

posted by curlyelk at 01:18 PM on August 18

this guy is sickening. what a press hog . if the vikings think he can take then to the playoffs , they are wasting money & time. at this stage i don t think there is a stadium big enough for his ego! he s like a pile of dog shit everywhere you turn you stepin it . i feel bad for the people of minnesota,

posted by oldmule at 01:18 PM on August 18

This is good for the Vikings, good for the fans, and good for Favre.

As for being "good for the Vikings," this will be a one year, all-or-nothing shot. Anyone with a brain realizes if they come up short or something doesn't go Favre's way, he'll quit again (notice I don't say "retire" anymore; Favre is a quitter at this point). With regards to "good for the fans," sure they'll be watching, and that's exactly why the guy keeps pulling this shit. He can't stand the boring life back in the swamps without everyone talking about him and kissing his ass. That's why he plays the game. And that brings me to, "and good for Favre." Everything the guy does is only about what's good for him. All this crap about him being such a team-first guy is garbage. He only give a damn about the team to the point they make HIM look good. Many people need to stop drinking the Brett Favre Kool-Aid they've been forced to drink all these years due to the hype that has accompanied his every move. By February we'll be commenting on the next "Brett Favre Retires Again" post. Count on that just like you do the sun coming up each morning.

posted by dyams at 01:23 PM on August 18

this guy is sickening. what a press hog

Why, because he still believes that he can play? When the Vikes were offering the QB job to him, he had just came from having surgery so he wasn't sure as to how his arm would respond during the healing process. The Vikings went into pre-season with the talents they had and Favre allowed his arm to heal properly. Favre has never been a pre-season kind of guy, he just wants to play the games that count.

I'm not making any type of excuses for the man but I just think that Favre has earned the right to continue to play football if his body & mind are willing. Even at the age of 40, Favre is a better QB right now than TJ or Sage Rosenfels are this season.

posted by BornIcon at 01:25 PM on August 18

Even with the recovery from his injury, Favre could have been in camp, participated in the walkthroughs, done all of the non-contact things, and in general learned what his team mates were all about. Instead, he used his injury as an excuse to get out of the hard parts of practice. This does not tell me that he is a good team mate, rather that he is a self-centered, arrogant ass.

Pardon me, but my gorge is rising.

posted by Howard_T at 01:34 PM on August 18

Remember regardless of how things ended up last year. He went to a 4 and 12 team and if not for injury would have had them in the playoffs. I have to disagree with this. The Jets would have been better off keeping Pennington last year. Favre was 21st in the league last year in QB rating. Yes, he was 5th in completion percentage, but only 22nd in yards per attempt. He simply throws the ball to the other team too much, as evidenced by his less-than-stellar 1:1 TD to INT ratio (22 of each).

posted by holden at 01:47 PM on August 18

Seriously, I do think this is good for the Vikes, both short and long term.

This year, they get a chance to be more competitive. T-Jack is worthless and Rosenfels would have been adequate at best. Sage will make a solid back up to Favre, and will almost certainly be needed. Given the other pieces that we have in place, why not take that one year shot?

Long term, it gives Rosenfels another year to hopefully become something more than adequate.

I am looking forward to the Packer games like never before, and I always looked forward to them!

posted by dviking at 01:48 PM on August 18

Favre is a quitter at this point

Gotta say I am with you on that. I mean, what are you going to say about leaving the Jets after coming up short? He didn't like that shade of green? I don't know the man and can't speak to his motives directly, but given the evidence he himself puts out in the media, it would be hard to believe that he is doing anything but looking out only for himself. Which is fine, whatever.

But I'll take bets that Favre isn't going to be playing any playoff football this year. At least without wearing a headset and a clipboard. The signs in opposing stadiums should be fun this year.

posted by THX-1138 at 01:59 PM on August 18

The Jets lost four out of their last five games with Favre as quarterback and he didn't have a single 300-yard passing game last season. I think the Vikes are getting a pedestrian quarterback here, and I'm not clear on why they think it's a good idea.

posted by rcade at 02:03 PM on August 18

See you folks same time, next year and we'll do this all over again.

posted by yerfatma at 02:06 PM on August 18

Brett, how can we miss you if you won't go away ?

posted by tommytrump at 02:15 PM on August 18

The Jets lost four out of their last five games with Favre as quarterback..

..who's arm was so injured that it required off season surgery.

Now let's sit back and watch what he can do.

posted by BornIcon at 02:24 PM on August 18

I used to love this guy, but now he makes me sick to the stomach. He doesn't know when enough is enough. The best thing that could happen to the Vikings is he pulls a hamstring in preseason and is out for the year.

posted by Doehead at 02:45 PM on August 18

Now let's sit back and watch what he can do.

Throw picks. His arm was injured, maybe it's better. He was old, now he's older.

posted by yerfatma at 02:51 PM on August 18

Throw picks. His arm was injured, maybe it's better. He was old, now he's older

And he's still a better overall QB than either Tavaris Jackson or Sage Rosenfels.

posted by BornIcon at 03:00 PM on August 18

It's been quite a trip for me. I originally had no opinion on Favre. I enjoyed watching him play over the years, but I never really rooted for or against the packers. Last season was the first time I had a rooting interest, and I was pulling for him as the old man slash underdog.

I've come full circle and I'm now sick of him. I hope his career ends with 4 interceptions and a last scene of Favre limping off the field.

Of course, with my rooting interests of lately, that means there's a good chance he'll throw the winning pass in the last seconds of the super bowl, but a boy can dream.

posted by justgary at 03:11 PM on August 18

And he's still a better overall QB than either Tavaris Jackson or Sage Rosenfels.

Yeah, that's really the meat of it. The question for me is: is he better for the long-term health of the Vikings than getting one of those two some more experience? Neither of them looks like a world-beater, but where is Minnesota going to find their next QB, especially if they make the playoffs (and have a lower pick)? If this results in a Superbowl win, it was all worth it. Otherwise it seems like a strange risk.

"Is he going to be better than Rosenfels and Jackson. Maybe. Probably. But it's not 1998 anymore. Even with a right arm that's been surgically repaired this offseason, what goes on between Favre's ears hasn't been fixed. He will continue to play with the same disregard for game situations that's marked the latter half of his career. Why? Because he keeps getting rewarded for it. There's a tendency to rewrite recent history with Favre and say that the Jets folded up like a lounge chair because Favre's arm hurt. That's not true. He threw 22 touchdowns and 22 interceptions last year . . . "

posted by yerfatma at 03:12 PM on August 18

The Jets lost four out of their last five games with Favre as quarterback..

Absolutely, and I don't think that anyone believes that an injured Brett Favre is going to do any better with the Vikings.

However, the real question is: Are the Vikings a better team right now with a healthy Brett Favre? I think the answer to that is yes. Rosenfels should be a good back up, and the addition of Favre allows him some time to grow with the program.

As to the flip flopping aspect, I think he was being honest about where he was with the shoulder. A few weeks can make a huge difference in recovering from injuries. Maybe he delayed in an attempt to minimize some of the preseason, however, he was working out all summer, so I hardly think he was avoiding practice.

He was in pads today...wearing the number 4...wish I could have been there.

posted by dviking at 03:15 PM on August 18

By what measure was Favre a better QB than the other two last year? Jackson's weaknesses (messing up in crucial points) is the same one that Favre has. Favre isn't going to rush for any yards. Jackson won the division with his team last year. Favre did not. Jackson played crappy in the playoffs. I do believe Favre's last appearance in the playoff was an even worse stinker.

posted by bperk at 03:19 PM on August 18

The question for me is: is he better for the long-term health of the Vikings than getting one of those two some more experience?

Now there's a great question! Overall, what is the better situation for the Vikes? To have Favre as their QB with the possibilty of them having a long playoff run or having two, fairly young QB's learning the position on the go? I don't see why both of these scenerios can't happen.

If Favre is a Viking this season, have him be a mentor for these two and after this year, have an open QB competition.

posted by BornIcon at 03:29 PM on August 18

How was the Jets running game? I honestly don't know and ask because remember that if he stays healthy, AP is one of the best running backs in the biz and won't require Favre to win those last 5 games on his own.

posted by jmd82 at 03:34 PM on August 18

I think his biggest mistake was using the word "retire" when he left the Packers. He clearly didn't want to leave the game, and so what? I don't blame him for wanting to continue as long as he's healthy. Playing golf everyday is boring as shit, especially if you're used to being in the limelight every Sun. If he can play, he's still better than a bunch of starting QB's right now. If you want a QB that can scramble out of the pocket, you wouldn't look at Farve anyway. If the Vikings have a decent offensive line to protect him, he'll do fine. If not, it wouldn't matter who is back there. I hope he does well.

posted by eccsport78 at 03:37 PM on August 18

If Favre is a Viking this season, have him be a mentor for these two and after this year, have an open QB competition.

Favre had made it clear many times that he has no intentions of being a mentor.

posted by bperk at 03:53 PM on August 18

Does anybody care about him or this situation anymore?

posted by forshizzle992 at 03:59 PM on August 18

I think his biggest mistake was using the word "retire"

A little thing he learned from his mentor, Holmgren. How "retired" do you think Holmy will be next year? Of course I think he said he was taking some time off.

In any event, I am in the camp of those who will be rooting against Brett this season. Just for the fun of it.

posted by THX-1138 at 04:02 PM on August 18

I'm interested to see how he is treated when he goes to Green Bay to play them.

In my opinion it would be funny (as well as ironic) if by that time Rogers is sidelined with an injury.

posted by Underdog at 04:10 PM on August 18

This Vikings fan has profoundly mixed emotions. I don't like the prima donna act from Favre any more than i did with Roger Clemens, and he's a tool for skipping training camp, but he could be the missing piece for postseason success this season and potentially be a mentor to the Vikings QBs

One approach would be to limit his playing time. Have Favre start, then put in Rosenfels or Jackson in the third quarter if the game's in hand or it's a losing effort. If he works at mentoring the other QBs, his presence could be a net positive even if he doesn't play the whole season. (I would not be shocked if he re-re-retired after the second game against Green Bay, especially if the Vikings win both games.)

The Vikings' management behaved shamefully during this whole soap opera. I completely understand the allure of Favre--they have an excellent team except for quarterback, they have a 1-3 season window, and the current QBs aren't good enough to win it all. But dragging Jackson and Rosenfels through months of publicly saying they aren't good enough is shameful.

It's a sweet setup for Favre. Eight games in a dome, two payback games against Green Bay, and an offense that will be very difficult to defend against.

Jackson won the division with his team last year.

Not really. Jackson was hurt after going 0-2 in the first two games, then Gus Frerotte went 7-3 before getting hurt, then Jackson went 3-1 to close the season before the Vikings lost the wildcard game (partially due to Jackson's poor performance). So Jackson was 3-3 during the season, 3-4 counting the playoffs.

The Jets lost four out of their last five games with Favre as quarterback and he didn't have a single 300-yard passing game last season.

True enough, but the end-of-season losses were after he got hurt, and with Adrian Peterson in the backfield there might not be any 300-yard passing games this season.

posted by kirkaracha at 04:13 PM on August 18

The Vikings have a pretty sweet schedule this season. They could open 5-0 before tough games against Baltimore (home game) and Pittsburgh (away). Plus, most of their away games are stacked in the first half of the season, so weather shouldn't be that big of an issue in the second half of the season, with only one cold-weather game, in Chicago.

Even if the Williams Wall gets suspended, they should be able to handle Cleveland, Detroit, and San Francisco to open the season. Green Bay might be a tough game 4 without the Williams'.

posted by kirkaracha at 04:21 PM on August 18

So Jackson was 3-3 during the season, 3-4 counting the playoffs.

That's still a better record than Favre last year. With many less games and passes thrown, Jackson had a better QB rating. I get the allure of Favre. I just don't think the Vikings are being realistic about Favre's current abilities.

posted by bperk at 04:24 PM on August 18

Man it does surprise me some of the animosity harbored toward Favre. Let's see, he is a shoe in Hall of Famer, has won the big one, he has played with passion and emotion his whole career, leaves it all on the field, holds about every record possible and frankly proved up until his injury last year, that he can still play in this league at a highly competitive level. Add all that to the fact that the Vikings want him, are willing to pay substantially for him, and he gets to play at least twice against the team that forced him into retirement before he was ready, who can blame him.

He is entitled to change his mind as much as he wants. When you consider there are players that are fighting weapons violations, drug violations, committed felonies, had DUI manslaughter convictions, and even been charged with murder, how can there be so much hate because Favre still wants to play. Whether or not he is successful, I can certainly welcome him back to the league much easier than I can Michael Vick. Only time will tell if the Vikings are making the right decision but they do know this... they have a lot of talent and are close, they probably feel this can put them over the top.

Sure at the end of the season the Vikings will at some point either fail miserably, which will not be Favre's fault as they still have their other two QBs to fall back on all season long. Or they will come very close and be dissapointed failing just short in the playoffs, in which case it will be as good or better than they did last year but still no ring, or they will get to the Superbowl. In all those scenarios it probably means Favre will be through. I don't see any reason to deny a great player the chance to play another season. The biggest issue will be if they do win a Superbowl (doubtful) could he walk away on top?

They say in boxing that the true champions need to be practically destroyed before they can stop trying to come back. It is because the very mindset that makes you a champion in the first place, is one in which you believe so strongly that you cannot be defeated, that you can accomplish anything. Sometimes you really have to prove to a champion that they just don't have it anymore. Football is different because it isn't just one man who is responsible.

Last year the Jets would have made the playoffs despite Favre's injury if they could have just played some better defense in one of the last 4 games. He would not have been solely responsible for their success and was not solely responsible for their failure. Pennington had years to succeed with them and could not. Sometimes a change is warranted in order to move forward. The Vikings obviously recognize this. Favre made the Jets better and he will make the Vikings better. The Packers were not better after Favre left and they were on the verge in his last season there.

posted by Atheist at 04:58 PM on August 18

Favre was 21st in the league last year in QB rating. Yes, he was 5th in completion percentage, but only 22nd in yards per attempt. He simply throws the ball to the other team too much, as evidenced by his less-than-stellar 1:1 TD to INT ratio (22 of each).

And lets not forget of his 22 TDs, 6 of them were in a single game. So 16 TDs over the other 15 games?

Count me as one who thinks he is NOT a good fit for the Vikings. With that running game and defense, you need a ball control QB who doesn't need to light things up but knows how to protect the ball. If there is one thing we know about Brett, is that he is the OPPOSITE of that. I'm not saying Jackson is that QB, but Favre sure isn't.

If you have a wide open offense he can jump in and throw for 6 scores and make up for the 5 INTs he throws. If not, well......

posted by bdaddy at 05:09 PM on August 18

He is entitled to change his mind as much as he wants.

Not buying that sentiment, unless he's willing to stick around and work with a team for more than one season. Football is a team sport, lets not forget, and many accounts last season by Jets players point to the fact he was anything but a good teammate. There will always be NFL teams who will trip over themselves trying to get him in, thinking he will be the final piece they need, at 40, to get them over the top. But ask the Jets how that worked out for them. They're starting from scratch now, probably ready to start a rookie. The Packers are the ones who look smarter now because they finally cut the cord and put Aaron Rogers in, putting an end to the yearly crap Favre would pull, retiring every year, not telling them if he was coming back. He's selfish, and I don't particularly give a shit if he makes it into the Hall of Fame or not. He'll be hated in Green Bay for the rest of time, so that induction should be a joke. If the Vikings and their fans think the Super Bowl is a given for them now, be prepared to be let down. Most likely, if Favre does make it through the season healthy and they do make the playoffs, he'll end the season with a sub-par performance (including several interceptions), and call it quits again.

posted by dyams at 05:31 PM on August 18

He'll be hated in Green Bay for the rest of time?

posted by rcade at 05:41 PM on August 18

Stats can be used to make almost any point. Favre's stats last year may not have been great, but he barely practiced with the team prior to starting. Combine the inevitable learning curve for the offense and players, the fact that it was the 4 and 12 Jets, he played severely injured in at least 5 games, his stats were not bad. He played very well for quite a few games once he settled in, and the Jets doubled their wins over the previous year. Compare all that to the demise of the Packers without him. He had the Packers within one play of the Superbowl during his last year with them. Favre's last two seasons were as as respectable as anybody should have rightfully expected. He just missed a Superbowl and took a historically loosing team to within a victory of the playoffs while injured enough to need off season surgery.

posted by Atheist at 05:44 PM on August 18

dyams - just to make a correction - he is entitled to change his mind and football is not a team sport it is a free agency sport. Can Jason Taylor leave Miami and come back? Can Michael Vick chance his lifestyle? Can McNabb be benched and then reinstated as starter? Bill Parcells retired and then changed his mind. If a QB like Jeff Garcia can play for a different every year why can't Brett Favre hire his free agent services out to a team. I am sure he is accepting a one year contract because that is what is being offered not because he is sure he will leave after.

posted by Atheist at 05:53 PM on August 18

Did you know the third (now 4th?) stringer is named John David Booty? Fuck, I want to change my name! "Hi, my name is Mr. Booty." Or what if he went to medical school? He'd have a world title porn name.

posted by dusted at 06:14 PM on August 18

Actually I think Favre signed a 2 year deal with the Vikings Athiest. Kind of an intriguing fact that he signs a two year deal. I wonder if that was the Vikings idea just in case things go bad in Minn and Favre wants to leave to another team next year and the Vikes will have rights to him next year.

posted by sgtcookzane at 06:46 PM on August 18

to build on Atheist's line that stats can be used to make almost any point...it was quoted above that Jackson had a better QB rating than Favre. Thats because the fool would take off and run for two yards on 3rd and 8 instead of making the throw into coverage. Yep, his stats look better, but we still had to punt the ball.

The Vikes are far better, and well-rounded, team than the Jets were, and Favre won't need to do it all himself.

Yes, he'll get booed in Green Bay, and I'd be surprised if Brett would have it any other way.

With the Bears picking up Cutler, the Vikes needed to upgrade at QB in order to be competitive. Favre is an upgrade, just hope he's still healthy in late Nov. when we have our 1st game against Chicago.

posted by dviking at 06:47 PM on August 18

He'd have a world title porn name.

Even better would be if he attained the rank of captain in the military.

posted by THX-1138 at 06:47 PM on August 18

"Even better would be if he attained the rank of captain in the military."

And then got promoted.

posted by Mr Bismarck at 07:42 PM on August 18

Favre's stats last year may not have been great, but he barely practiced with the team prior to starting. Combine the inevitable learning curve for the offense and players ...

I can see next year's excuses already forming.

If Favre sucked last year (or this year) because he didn't practice with the team, whose fault is that other than his? He's the one who can't sign a deal until ESPN has mentioned his name at least 12,000 times in the offseason.

posted by rcade at 09:05 PM on August 18

The Vikes are far better, and well-rounded, team than the Jets were, and Favre won't need to do it all himself.

But Favre has proven time and again he can't play on a team that doesn't need him to do it all himself. Greenbay tried to turn him into that type of QB (one who is a "game manager") and he had one of his most successful seasons in years, then reverted back to his own "gunslinging" ways towards the end of that year. He said himself, he can't be that type of QB. Not for any sustainable time.

So when you stick him with a team that has a rushing game, a good defense, and all you need is a QB who doesn't make mistakes...that's not Favre.

He'll be hated in Green Bay for the rest of time

I never thought it possible, but I'm hearing from more and more GB fans who have turned to pure hatred against him, especially with today's news of going to the hated rival.

I mean, as a Steeler fan I absolutely love Ben Roethlisberger....but if he pulled all this and ended up with the Ravens? Yea, he would be on my all-time shit list. That's all it would take to change my feelings on him.

posted by bdaddy at 09:52 PM on August 18

Farve's actions are hurting his image, and he seems oblivious to it. That's his prerogative, but I find it sad. I used to admire him as a player; now I just see him as an attention whore. Stay home with your wife who has gone through so much over the last few years, Brett. Don't be a prick.

And I can't WAIT to see him face the Steelers' defense IN Pittsburgh in late October. And I bet the Steelers' defense is excited to face him as well.

posted by scully at 10:45 PM on August 18

Guy reminds me of a bad social disease - something you can't get rid of no matter how hard you try.

The Vikings have been officially infected.

posted by cixelsyd at 12:35 AM on August 19

Come on, as long as we don't find out that he's done steroids, his image isn't all that tarnished. Plenty of athletes have done the unretired thing, and fans have forgiven them.

Would have Cowboy fans preferred not to have seen Emmitt Smith in a Cardinals jersey? Sure, but he's not exactly Public Enemy #1 anymore.

If Favre has a great season he'll be a hero, if he has anything above a so-so season he'll still be fine. If he sucks, he'll have to face the cameras and call it a day and admit that he made a mistake coming back. The only way he'll end up tarnishing his reputation is if he sucks and takes no ownership of it. The press conference I saw today leads me to believe that he's being upfront about where he's at. I think he'll handle it correctly if he isn't able to compete.

posted by dviking at 01:36 AM on August 19

I don't see this ending well. i dont think Minnesota will make the playoffs and I hope he gets nothing but boos in GB. im so sick of his selfish antics and ready to discredit his accomplishments. And what the hell was Minnesot athinking paying 25 million for him. This is a mistake. he has tarnished his legacy greatly. Hes not even 100% healthy now. If he wants to play so bad he should just play with his wrangler jeans buddies.

posted by Clevelander32 at 03:59 AM on August 19

dviking: I understand. You're a fan of the Vikings, and you want to finally win something. But comparing what Farve has been doing for the last 5 years or so -- remember for the last few years with the Packers there was ALWAYS speculation of retirement -- to a RB who simply thought he had more in the tank and wanted to continue to play. Farve does have a right to decide when and where he wants to play, but jerking around the GM/coaches/ownership makes it difficult for them to do their job. When Farve quit the Packers 2 years ago, he had said over and over it was final. So the team moved forward with Rogers. Teams need leadership, and the team decided to make Rogers the starter and to let him begin the process of becoming a leader in a post-Brett Farve Packers universe. When Brett suddenly wanted to come back, the ownership decided that Brett COULD come back, but that he would have to compete. Farve didn't feel he needed to compete based on his resume, and so stormed off and looked for a team that would immediately make him the QB. He also has made it clear he doesn't do training camp, and I imagine from his teammate's perspective that this means he is above them. They have to sweat it out and do two-a-days in high heat, while he fishes (for fish and compliments). Training camp help build teamwork as well as helping players shake off the rust. Missing it -- even in contract holdout situations -- makes it difficult for a player to be ready for the season, and makes ones teammates wonder whether the player is a team-first guy. I feel for Sage Rosenfels (9-years in the league, so those speaking about him as if he has time to be groomed should consider he is nearly as old as Farve) who signed his contract in good faith with a promise he could compete for the starting position.

Those of us who are talking of Farve's reputation are speaking of his reputation as a person. His reputation as a player is rarely doubted -- although rightfully should be this year because of his age and shoulder surgery. But in a Green Bay uniform, where most of his career stats and heroics (and Super Bowl ring) occurred, his reputation will be tarnished because he jerked the team, the ownership AND the fans along.

posted by scully at 06:56 AM on August 19

I like what Ed Bouchette of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette said when asked what he thought of Farve unretirement:

"He should come back and play until he's cut, whatever year that is. That way, the decision that he seems unable to make will finally be made for him."

Ben Roethlisberger's response was: "Shoot, he did it right: He missed all of training camp. I'm going to try that next year or something."

posted by scully at 07:17 AM on August 19

Farve's actions are hurting his image, and he seems oblivious to it

Ever think that Favre just doesn't care what people may or may not think of him?

I can understand why people are reacting this way towards him considering all of the flip-flop, back & forth decisions but this is Brett Favre's life, career & legacy. We all (ok, maybe not all of us but some) want his story to end with him wearing a Green Bay Packers jersey with his familiar #4 on the front while holding up the Lombardi trophy screaming that he's going to Disney World but that's just not his version of how his story ends seeing as how the Packers didn't want him to be their QB any longer. The Packers kicked him out basically while he felt that he still had something left to give, is that really so bad? He got traded to the Jets and played remarkedly well until he got injured but he still doubled the Jets win total and nearly had them in the playoffs.

Brett Favre may be alot of things but one thing I believe that he is, is a guy that wants to continue playing football and I really don't think that's such a bad thing. Let the man play ball and if does well, good for him. If he gets injured once again considering that he's going to the Vikings with a slight tear in his rotator cuff, then so be it but at least he's not afraid to give it another shot.

posted by BornIcon at 07:44 AM on August 19

Good point Born, I think everyone forgets he DID improve a horrible jets team from the year before, and he did play well until the injury.

posted by sgtcookzane at 08:21 AM on August 19

Ever think that Favre just doesn't care what people may or may not think of him?

No. I think it's a matter of him just wanting people to continue thinking about him. ESPN is practically tripping over themselves coming up with new angles on this story.

One thing I don't get is the chip on the shoulder Favre has regarding Green Bay. Every damn year he'd make the team sit around and wait, month after month, saying he wasn't coming back, was retiring, would make his decision soon, would hold press conferences where nothing was said, on and on and on, basically making the entire team hold off on every decision they had to make. I said it before, he's a selfish jackass. The Packers finally move forward with Rogers, and stop kissing Favre's ass in the process, and now they did him wrong? Screw him. He strung the entire organization along every offseason for years, thinking he would be allowed to keep playing his games, but was finally called on it.

I'll be waiting for the two GB-Minn. matchups this years, too. I'll be hoping Green Bay kicks his ass every which way.

posted by dyams at 09:05 AM on August 19

But Chad Pennington did improve the Dolphins too, so who's to say the Jets would have been fine without trading for Farve? And if pundits are still considering the Jets as contenders this year with a rookie, it seems that perhaps it wasn't all Farve's doing in New Jersey.

posted by scully at 09:05 AM on August 19

This morning the ESPN host said "You're watching FarveCenter from Los Angeles" with her tongue firmly planted in her cheek.

posted by scully at 09:06 AM on August 19

Ever think that Favre just doesn't care what people may or may not think of him?

Not at all. I think a big part of this retirement/unretirement business is his inability to live out of the spotlight. He certainly seems to care about what the media thinks of him, given all of the interviews he gives with his buddies like Peter King.

Come on, as long as we don't find out that he's done steroids, his image isn't all that tarnished.

People forget his Vicodin addiction. Favre's not squeaky clean.

As mad as Packers fans are at Favre today, I still think they will be proud of him again by the time his Hall of Fame induction rolls around. Time heals all heels.

posted by rcade at 09:09 AM on August 19

My issue is the multi-year deals when you know there is no intention on honoring the contracts. Using "retirement" to get out of a contract is unethical and truly a breach of contract if one does not remain "retired." I am not just referring to Favre here.

This Jets fan would have preferred not to have Brett Farve last year so that they could start rebuilding. Why put a band-aid on a a wound that just won't heal? I think this is the point for the Vikings.

At least the Jets were lucky enough to get a decent draft pick with Sanchez. Let's hope the coaching staff can preporly develop him. Whether you consider football a "team sport" or a "free agent sport" (aren't they all?), it still takes a well rounded TEAM to win the Super Bowl.

posted by emynes at 09:41 AM on August 19

No. I think it's a matter of him
posted by dyamns
...

Not at all. I think a big part of this retirement/unretirement business is his inability to live out of the spotlight

posted by rcade

But this is what I mean, this is what YOU think, not what Favre might think. We just knows that he wants to play football and a team was interested in him which is why he was signed. What's the real problem with that because I don't see it? ESPN are the ones drooling over themselves with a Brett Favre story, he's been doing his thing trying to get himself and his arm ready for football season.

Chad Pennington did improve the Dolphins too, so who's to say the Jets would have been fine without trading for Farve?

Yes he did but also remember that the year before while the starting QB for the J-E-T-S JETS, JETS, JETS, his team was 4-12. With all the short passing schemes and wildcat offense that Miami has, that's why he was able to be successful there. The Jets playbook consisted of more deep throws that Pennington wasn't able to complete which is why they wanted a QB with a cannon for an arm over Pennington's .38 special. It's just bad luck that Favre got injured but that's part of the game but he was a part of why the Jets improved last season.

People forget his Vicodin addiction. Favre's not squeaky clean.

rcade, I respect your opinion on topics but what does Favre's addiction that happened 13 years ago have to do with the here & now? When has he said that he's a squeaky clean player or person? IMO, one of the reasons why people gravitate towards Favre is because he seems like a regular Joe. His Wrangler commercials where he's playing football with a bunch of guys makes him look like someone any of us would know, including ourselves so his past addictions makes him seem more like a normal person that has had problems in the past but was able to overcome them.

posted by BornIcon at 09:48 AM on August 19

but what does Favre's addiction that happened 13 years ago have to do with the here & now?

Favre won the Super Bowl 13 years ago. Should we declare that irrelevant as well?

posted by bperk at 09:56 AM on August 19

Look, this guy completely sucked the last half of the season in NY. He cost his team a playoff berth because of his lack of conditioning and severely diminished skills.

What does he do to improve this year? Nothing - skips training camp again, he'll be older and in worse condition. He has no interest in mentoring his younger teammates, so no value there either.

Vikes looked like a young team on the rise with and excellent playoff shot without him. Really don't understand this move.

posted by cixelsyd at 10:11 AM on August 19

Favre won the Super Bowl 13 years ago. Should we declare that irrelevant as well?

That's football related. His addiction was a personal matter but since he's a high profile athlete, of course it became public knowledge. His wife Deanna also had cancer, does that need to be brought up as well?

These things that are being brought up sound like excuses that people are using in order to hate Favre even more so than they already do but that really has nothing to do with 2009.

He cost his team a playoff berth because of his lack of conditioning and severely diminished skills.

Really? I could've sworn it was because he got injured and needed surgery.

Vikes looked like a young team on the rise with and excellent playoff shot without him. Really don't understand this move.

So having a HoF caliber QB at the helm over two young & inexperianced QB's is not understandable? The Vikes run a similar offense that Favre had in Green Bay so he'll be able to come in and know the playbook inside & out, what's not to understand? This is the team that Favre originally wanted to be traded to but since the Vikes are in the same division as Green Bay and plays them twice a year, why would the Packers do that to themselves last year?

posted by BornIcon at 10:13 AM on August 19

What's the real problem with that because I don't see it?

The only problem is he plays these games with organizations who are so enamored with him. He did it in Green Bay for years, as I mentioned in my last post, and he continues it with Minnesota. Ironically happening to miss camp is just one more example of him pulling the strings. Fine, he has the right to do what he want, I get that. But the Vikings entire offense has wasted a lot of time now preparing for another quarterback, and now they have to learn on the fly with Favre under center. He can do whatever he wants, does do whatever he wants, and truly, down deep, is insensitive to the organizations that employ him. I don't need to know what he thinks or how he thinks. He's looking to add to his own legacy, not his legacy as it applies to any team he's been part of. The guy is fairly easy to predict when you get right down to it, and my prediction (like many others) is he'll be spouting the same shit at the end of this season that he does every season.

posted by dyams at 10:20 AM on August 19

We all (ok, maybe not all of us but some) want his story to end with him wearing a Green Bay Packers jersey with his familiar #4 on the front while holding up the Lombardi trophy screaming that he's going to Disney World

I want his story to end with a bus going 90 miles an hour. Instead it'll end just before the bus gets to him so ESPN can spend years talking about what the ending really means.

posted by yerfatma at 10:24 AM on August 19

I want his story to end with a bus going 90 miles an hour

So that puts you in the "maybe not all of us" catagory. I personally didn't expect death to be the equalizer to the Brett Favre saga.

posted by BornIcon at 10:26 AM on August 19

And if pundits are still considering the Jets as contenders this year with a rookie, it seems that perhaps it wasn't all Farve's doing in New Jersey.
From the sports radio programs that I've been listening to lately, credit for any potential improvement of the Jets is coming from their upgraded defense.

People forget his Vicodin addiction. Favre's not squeaky clean.
Did that addiction really hurt his reputation? I honestly cannot remember anyone elses' reaction, but I do remember mine: "Of course he's addicted to pain killers; he gets the snot beat out of him for a living." At least it wasn't 'roids.

posted by NoMich at 10:28 AM on August 19

So having a HoF caliber QB at the helm over two young & inexperianced QB's is not understandable?

Again, Sage Rosenfels is not a young quarterback. He is 31 as of this past March.

For the record I was not a Favre hater until he pulled this shit last year. In fact, I quietly pull for the Packers because I liked his gutsy play, and I like the ownership structure in Green Bay. It's easy to paint people who are disagreeing with you as having a hidden agenda rather than on the strength of their rguments, but I think you'll find that isn't the case — and a strawman at best.

posted by scully at 10:58 AM on August 19

He can do whatever he wants, does do whatever he wants, and truly, down deep, is insensitive to the organizations that employ him.

And he's a big hypocrite. He had plenty to say when one of his receivers (Javon Walker) so much as threatened to hold out, regardless of whether he actually did. Then Favre was really concerned about commitment to the team and honoring his contract and guys being there for mini-camp. Apparently, that's only very important for the other guys.

posted by bperk at 11:04 AM on August 19

Again, Sage Rosenfels is not a young quarterback. He is 31 as of this past March.

That doesn't put him in the over-the-hill section either. 31 is still fairly young considering he has room for improvement.

It's easy to paint people who are disagreeing with you as having a hidden agenda rather than on the strength of their rguments

Where in the world did I ever say that you or anyone else has a hidden agenda because you disagree with me? Can we stick to the subject at hand without making it seem as if this is a revised version of We Are The World where we must all get along and agree with what the other person said while whistling dixie?

posted by BornIcon at 11:06 AM on August 19

rcade, I respect your opinion on topics but what does Favre's addiction that happened 13 years ago have to do with the here & now?

I only mentioned it because a couple people talked about drugs and steroids and compared Favre favorably to players with those kinds of problems.

I'm not a Favre hater. I think it would be interesting if he succeeded in Minnesota. I just think he isn't very likable any more, and it's a little sad to see his career end this way. He could have walked off Lambeau Field as the most beloved player ever to wear a Packers jersey. Hell, I'm a Cowboys fan and I ended up liking the guy for being the last man standing from the great Packers-Cowboys rivalry of the Aikman/Smith/Irvin era.

posted by rcade at 11:59 AM on August 19

Great link Gary. I wonder if John Madden has also left Favre side like PK did.

I agree that his career should've ended as a Green Bay Packer as well but that's just how I envisioned it. I'm sure that Brett didn't envision himself getting pushed out the door by the Packers organization but that may be why he feels that he can still contribute on a contending team. He just wasn't ready to call it a career, IMO.

I have never been a Packers fan but There's Something About Favre that always intrigued me. Whether it was his style of play or that he was always one player that you could count on seeing play on Sundays, I'm not quite sure. I just know that I enjoy it when an athlete has those competitive juices flowing and no matter what, they will always do whatever they can to try and win the game.

Hell, I'm a Cowboys fan and I ended up liking the guy for being the last man standing from the great Packers-Cowboys rivalry of the Aikman/Smith/Irvin era.

And here I thought that I was the only Cowboy fan with those same sentiments.

posted by BornIcon at 12:08 PM on August 19

Where in the world did I ever say that you or anyone else has a hidden agenda because you disagree with me?

Right here ...

These things that are being brought up sound like excuses that people are using in order to hate Favre even more so than they already do but that really has nothing to do with 2009.

posted by rcade at 12:11 PM on August 19

Wow, King really is off the bandwagon: "Childress has looked like a desperate man throughout this melodrama. He made it known internally that Favre had to do at least some work in the offseason program or the veteran mini-camp to be considered. Favre never showed. Then he had to come by the start of camp. Favre didn't come, opting for his third false retirement in 17 months. Now the Vikings let him come back after the team has gone through training camp. Favre's the wishy-washiest player in memory -- and the Vikings are his enablers. It's ridiculous."

Childress has gambling his job on Favre. By making demands that Favre never met, and signing him anyway, Childress will never be able to get away with being a hardass again. Players will know he caves.

posted by rcade at 12:19 PM on August 19

And here I thought that I was the only Cowboy fan with those same sentiments.

I learned to like Chuck Noll for the same reason.

posted by rcade at 12:20 PM on August 19

That comment has nothing to do with some sort of 'hidden agenda' that terrapin speculated on. It came right after your Brett Favre "squeaky clean" comment which I found to be an excuse as if you were searching for a reason to dislike the man for making another comeback and brought up a subject that took place 13 years ago.

I learned to like Chuck Noll for the same reason

I guess, sorry I can't say the same. I hated him for his team beating the 'Boys but I respected him as a coach...plus, we're talking about the Steelers here. Ugh!

posted by BornIcon at 12:23 PM on August 19

Speaking generally, I find one of the surest ways to throw a monkey wrench into a discussion is to claim you know somebody's motives.

posted by rcade at 12:33 PM on August 19

and here it is: http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/9956006/The-world-according-to-Favre

posted by texpat at 12:35 PM on August 19

I didn't know your motive behind your comment nor am I claiming to have known, I comment on what I read as I assume we all do. After you broke it down as to why you made that comment (I only mentioned it because a couple people talked about drugs and steroids and compared Favre favorably to players with those kinds of problems), it made sense to why you brought it up.

posted by BornIcon at 12:35 PM on August 19

That doesn't put him in the over-the-hill section either. 31 is still fairly young considering he has room for improvement.

I don't really get this statement. Are you saying he's a "young" quarterback in terms of miles, not years? That because he wasn't good enough at age 24 or so and didn't get pounded on there's reason to believe he will be good? Why? And weren't you arguing the Vikings were better off with Favre?

posted by yerfatma at 12:56 PM on August 19

Football is a business. Favre is an individual who feels he has a skill to sell and evidently there are buyers. Somebody earlier made a very good point about the Bears aquiring Cutler. The Bears are a perfect example of a team who although they have come close have been inhibited by barely adequate QBs from achieving their goals in recent years. It seems the Vikings have decided to jump at the chance to have a world class QB, in order to compete with what will undoubtedly be a much improved Bears. The Packers also should be expected to be better if for no other reason than Rogers has had a season as a starter under his belt.

Regardless of what anybody thinks of Favre personally, as a fan you have to love the fact that Favre harbors animosity toward Green Bay for forcing his hand on retirement and now gets to play against them in the division. As for his skills, the people that know him best, The Packers, did everything in their power to ensure he did not wind up in the division to play against them. There were clauses in the Jets contract that prohibited the Jets from trading him to a team in the division. How can anybody who loves to watch football not be glad that this is happening? The ratings for Packers vs Vikings are going to go through the roof. That my friends is what this is all really about!

Say what you want about Favre, there can be no doubt that he is a competitor. He had one of his best games the day after his father died. Give him some motivation and I think he will perform. He always was known for coming from behind and he could never be counted out. Do not put it past him to become the oldest QB to ever win a Superbowl.

posted by Atheist at 01:04 PM on August 19

Again, Sage Rosenfels is not a young quarterback. He is 31 as of this past March.

That doesn't put him in the over-the-hill section either. 31 is still fairly young considering he has room for improvement.

Next to Favre, it makes him seem like a fucking baby.

Look, a couple people have alluded to this and it's the best reason to look at the Vikings' organization and wonder if they're all hooked on Vicodin -- Brett Favre is absolutely the wrong quarterback for this team.

Minnesota had pretty much set itself up as a clone of the early 2000s Baltimore Ravens -- run, run, run the ball, throw the short pass and beat the holy hell out of the other team defensively. Last year they lead the league in rushing defense and were sixth overall. Yes, they need help in the secondary, but it wouldn't have been shocking to see the Vikings top 5 overall this season.

Offensively, Minnesota owns what is arguably the best 1-2 punch in football in the backfield -- Adrian Peterson and whatever backup you choose. Peterson was dominant last season, leading the NFL in rushing and averaging 4.8 ypc. Hell, even Chester Taylor had 400 yards and averaged four yards a pop, and both guys did it with a lousy passing game around them.

And head coach Brad Childress learned during the season to get AP the damned ball. He was even working on splitting out Peterson to get him more touches and create more problems for opposing defenses.

What does Favre bring? Well, he brings an arm that -- if healthy -- can go deep? Who do the Vikings have that's a huge deep threat? Bernard Berrian? He turns the ball over a lot. He throws into double coverage, which is fine when you have the receivers to do so.

In other words, Favre is the antithesis of what you'd want in a ball-control quarterback. The Vikings signed Rosenfels to be that guy.

Unless Minnesota wins the Super Bowl this season (and I highly doubt Favre is the Viking QB next season even if he is still wanting to be), this is a huge step backward for a team which was headed in the right direction.

posted by wfrazerjr at 01:07 PM on August 19

I'll be more than happy to share my perspective with you. Sage Rosenfels has not taken the hits that QB's his age has, in this stage of his career. He's not to the point in his career where he can't improve if given quality coaches that can properly teach him the position as opposed to when he was in Miami or Houston. He can learn from Brett Favre as his backup just as Aaron Rodgers did while in Green Bay.

Although it's only pre-season, he's so far played better than Tavaris Jackson has (10/13 91 yard to 7/15 39 yards).

Great breakdown, fraze. My only question is if Favre is not right for them, is TJ or Sage the right fit? They may have a great RB in Adrian Peterson and a solid back up with Chester Taylor but when it's 3rd and 10 or 3rd and 12, are they going to continue to pound the ball or would they like to throw it for a 1st down? With TJ, there were some bright spots there but the guy couldn't hit the ocean with a rock if he were on a boat. Sage has played remarkably well but he's not a starting QB but I would definately start him over TJ if Favre was not there.

posted by BornIcon at 01:08 PM on August 19

He is entitled to change his mind as much as he wants. When you consider there are players that are fighting weapons violations, drug violations, committed felonies, had DUI manslaughter convictions, and even been charged with murder, how can there be so much hate because Favre still wants to play.

What a ridiculous comparison, though I do suppose it says something that you're comparing Favre to criminals to make your point.

I don't like the prima donna act from Favre any more than i did with Roger Clemens

It's pretty amazing how similar these two athletes are when you really think about it.

- Both are once very talented players fighting time and not willing to give it up.

- Both give off a Southern aww shucks good ol' boy feel.

- Both are built partly on myth and aura (ex: Atheist: He leaves it all on the field!)

- Both have retired multiple times

- Both are superstars now really without a home team. Clemens is hated in boston, the Yankees didn't even invite him back for the last game at the old Yankee stadium. Maybe time will heal the wounds and Favre will be loved in Green Bay again, but he's doing his best to sever all hope.

This is really a repeat of high school, where the quarterback could get away with anything. He was the king of the school. And you watch other students worship the guy and the whole time your thinking "this guy is full of shit."

I don't see this as much different. Clemens and Favre are two athletes that have been coddled and babied their entire careers; never told no. When the congressional panel didn't take the BS Clemens was feeding them without question he didn't know how to react. Who would doubt the rocket? And when Green Bay told Favre NO he didn't know how to react.

And the thing is, I like most athletes. But these two, great athletes both, are simply complete BSers with absolutely no self perception. Their idiocy is masked by talent. If fans want to root them on and enable prima donna behavior great. But I have a hard time understanding why those fans have such a difficult time understanding why I (and others) would root against them. With these two, basically, we're dealing with spoiled children. And spoiled children are a pain in the ass.

posted by justgary at 01:43 PM on August 19

Great comment, Gary. "Idiocy Masked by Talent" would be a good title for either man's biography.

posted by rcade at 01:58 PM on August 19

"Idiocy Masked by Talent" would be a good title for either man's biography.

"Idiocy Masked by Talent and other agents", by Roger Clemens.

Yup, I can see it.

posted by inigo2 at 02:19 PM on August 19

The comments are interesting about how Minnesota has this ball control offense. Dallas once had the leading rusher in the league in Emmett Smith. They also had a lot of other threats. Having a credible passing game doesn't prohibit the ball control part of your offense. Favre is an improvement at the QB position for the Vikings. You can't have too many threats. The passing threat of Favre, especially the deep threat will only make breaking long runs easier for Peterson. The more possibilities a defense has to cope with the easier it is for the offense to move the ball with all aspects of their game. Detroit once had the best runner in the league in Barry Sanders, but a lot of good that did them without a QB to pose another threat. Sighting Adrian Petersons stats is irrelevant, as in the end he will be better when the defense can no longer focus on him the same way they do now.

justgary - your comment only shows you missed my point. Favre was not being compared to criminals. My point was if the league and the fans can forgive major criminal behavior, surely forgiving a guy for changing his mind about retirement shouldn't be too difficult.

Comparing Favre to Clemens is a bad analogy. There are plenty of prima dona athletes which I agree both are, but Clemens is a liar, criminal and a cheat. Trying to equate Brett Favre with him is not appropriate.

I do not agree with the way Favre has handled his retirement decision but as a fan I am glad he will play this year. Good or bad it is making the season a lot more interesting. Also just out Minnesota has had a surge in ticket sales, so as important as winning is, the signing of Favre has already paid off on the business side of things. That is all that the league is really about anyway. Selling tickets and advertising. Love them or hate them, forgive them or not, regardless of what you think of Favre and Michael Vick football this season will be a lot more fun with them than without them.

posted by Atheist at 04:13 PM on August 19

He's not to the point in his career where he can't improve if given quality coaches that can properly teach him the position as opposed to when he was in Miami or Houston.

Isn't it far more likely though that Sage has ridden the pine because he's not very good, not because he hasn't had good coaches/ mentors? Also, Aaron Rodgers was 24 when he became the starter in Green Bay. And hasn't Favre clearly stated he's not interested in being a mentor? Sounds like he wasn't much of one in Green Bay. Or after leaving.

posted by yerfatma at 04:23 PM on August 19

I like it better than the Herschel Walker trade... I don't think that the Vikings are any worse off.

posted by Monica Poland at 06:02 PM on August 19

In the first 24 hours since the trade was announced, the Vikings have sold 3000 additional season tickets, and over 10,000 singe game tickets, not to mention Favre/Viking merchandise. My guess it that they are already happy with the move.

posted by Atheist at 06:13 PM on August 19

As a die-hard Packers fan and someone who was an avowed devotee of Favre before the facade started to crack... this is quite the interesting development, to put it mildly. I had the fandom bad -- from the bobblehead to the little playing card in a plaque to the calendars and the doll and all that fandom crap. (It burns well, I've learned.) Most Packer fans I've spoken with about this are singularly disgusted and bemused, disgusted at Favre's desperate attempts to remain relevant and in the limelight, and bemused at the Vikings' insistence on enabling his childish behaviours.

I predict massive fail from this. They'll sell more tickets, they'll get better attendance at games, he'll provide some interest for the bandwagon Vikings fans constantly looking for an excuse to either follow the team or bail completely ("thick and thin" being a concept completely foreign to this group).

But he will sputter and fade, because his time is over. This was an initiative based purely on spite, as he has said himself. The fact that he will drag this showboating out in such a fashion just to further illuminate the "I've got hurt feelings over the way Ted Thompson didn't roll over and kowtow to my every whim" chip he's working on that torn-rotator-cuffed shoulder is like a Greek tragedy in action; I had absolutely, absolutely no idea that someone who had been so revered could voluntarily shit all over his own image this way, as well as shitting on all the fans who followed him for so long. Not even simple defecation, mind you, but the poo-flinging antics of a howler monkey stuck in the development stage. And, you know, you don't get to crap on Packers fans who stood behind you no matter what and then turn around and whine because you feel they never really truly supported you in the first place. Has noone recognized this narcissistic personality disorder for what it is? Or is he just really that unbelievably dumb?

posted by evixir at 09:20 PM on August 19

dviking: I understand. You're a fan of the Vikings, and you want to finally win something. But comparing what Farve has been doing for the last 5 years or so...terrapin, my 1st comment on this thread stated that I know this really just another way to beat my hopes into submission. All the hype, and they still won't win the Super Bowl.

I think this makes the Vikes better, and I really don't think too many fans will really care. Those of you that have voiced your opinions most certainly do, and I respect that. However, the average Sunday afternoon fan will not. Ticket sales are booming, the media coverage is going to get crazy over the top, and yes, Favre is loving the attention. Yea, like he's the only Prima Donna star that's ever done that. Others have retired multiple times (Clemens, Foreman, Jordan come to mind) and no one really hated them for that. Clemens is now hated due to the steroids, not due to his repeated mid-season returns.

Evixir, you can bite me for your odd comment Vikings fans constantly looking for an excuse to either follow the team or bail completely ("thick and thin" being a concept completely foreign to this group). The steadfastness of the Vikings fans is what makes the Viking Packer games so much fun. We've suffered through far more than the Packer fans have , and still remain loyal to the purple.

Yea, lots of Favre sucks talk out there, but not all Packer faithful feel that way. I have a lot of friends in Wisconsin (lived there for many years) that are fine with Favre playing for Minnesota. They hope he loses, but they're okay with it.

Don't think it makes my Vikings a Super Bowl winner, but it does make them better and a whole lot more fun to watch!

posted by dviking at 11:07 PM on August 19

BornIcon said: "These things that are being brought up sound like excuses that people are using in order to hate Favre even more so than they already do but that really has nothing to do with 2009."

posted by scully at 07:13 AM on August 20

Isn't it far more likely though that Sage has ridden the pine because he's not very good, not because he hasn't had good coaches/ mentors?

That could be but couldn't it be also because he wasn't suitable for the schemes that his former teams employed or that the QB coaches were just not very good either (Remember David Carr being sacked an NFL record 76 times in Houston? How about the Brian Griese or Cleo Lemon era in Miami?)?

Then again, maybe your right, maybe Sage is a bust that deserves to ride the pine, my only suggestion is that with Favre now being the starter for the Vikes, maybe he can now learn a thing or two by watching a future HoF'er during practices or games.

posted by BornIcon at 08:46 AM on August 20

Favre is an improvement at the QB position for the Vikings

We shall see. *I* say, his recklessness with the ball will cost them more games than they would have if they had a mediocre "less famous" QB who protects the ball. At this point, your belief has no more validity than mine.

I've seen it enough with the Steelers to know that a QB like a NOD can win a lot of games just by not turning the ball over, versus a Tommy Maddox who would throw for 400 yards but give up costly turnovers. Luckily I now have a Roethlisberger who seems to be a mix of both :-)

but Clemens is a liar, criminal and a cheat. Trying to equate Brett Favre with him is not appropriate.

ESPN just ran a quote from Favre where he said there was NO WAY he would change his mind and come back. He was done. Yet here we are. That's not lying? Whether his Vicodin addiction is criminal, I don't know for certain, but I would assume his doctor's weren't prescribing it to him in a legal way if it was enough for him to maintain his addiction. And Clemens didn't cheat...anymore than the Swimmers with the new suits cheated prior to the suit being outlawed.

as a fan you have to love the fact that Favre harbors animosity toward Green Bay for forcing his hand on retirement and now gets to play against them in the division

You're joking, right? As a fan that whole thing makes most of us despise him more (just gauge the mood on this thread regarding the topic). After years of threatening to retire, he RETIRES. They name their young recently drafted QB their starter. Favre decides a few months later he changed his mind. They tell him, that's fine, but you'll have to come in and and compete for the starting position. He says "I don't compete....I want to be released so I can go to your hated division rival". That's "forcing his hand on retirement"? The only forced hand was Green Bays, when they were forced to trade him to NYJ (only to be fooled again when he retires to circumvent the deal NYJ made not to trade him back into green bays division, is released, then signs with that hated rival that they wanted to avoid him going to to begin with).

posted by bdaddy at 10:54 AM on August 20

maybe he can now learn a thing or two by watching a future HoF'er during practices or games.

I disagree with this

a) Favre is not a teacher. Remember the hoopla regarding Rodgers where he said that it wasn't his responsibility to teach the younger guys.

b) Favre is not a student of the game. Remember the quotes from him when he was several years in the league and asked his fellow QB what the "Nickel" was?

c) Even WATCHING him isn't going to be good for the backups as he rarely makes the sound football throw, and forces throws he shouldn't be making (sometimes getting away with them because of pure arm strength...sometimes not).

Favre has gotten this far with pure talent, not with football know-how, reading defenses, film study, etc. How is that going to help the other guys be better? There is nothing he can teach the other QB's unless they happen to also be born with a rocket arm and oodles of all-pro talent.

posted by bdaddy at 11:01 AM on August 20

you know this whole thread makes me wonder why Favre has always been an icon to the sport while guys like TO are villanized.

Let's look at Favre's history
- drug addiction

- in his early years, admittedly reported to meetings and practices drunk and/or hungover

- called out his teammate for not reporting to camp (teammate later reported and tore his ACL affecting his bargaining for future contracts)

- personally doesn't go to camps and reportedly waited to sign with the Vikings to avoid the college dormitory experience

- refused to help his incumbent QB saying it's not his job to teach the younger guys

- never a film room guy. Didn't even know what a nickel defense was several years into his career

- publicly criticized his GM for his offseason moves

- held retirement over the teams head for 3 years with them never knowing going into the season who was going to be their QB (and saying at the time he didn't owe them any advance notice)

Now imagine if TO had done a few of the things on this list.

This guy has NEVER been a team player, but the media sure loved him (As a result, so did the rest of America).

posted by bdaddy at 11:09 AM on August 20

But he's just havin' fun out there, bdaddy!

posted by yerfatma at 11:28 AM on August 20

One year during the QB skills challenge, Favre went first and he threw two his balls out of bounds. Kind of a bummer because he was regarded as having one of the strongest arms in the game. Then he started playing around and taking the football that the other QBs were holding and throwing these long bombs. It was so fun to watch. He seemed to bring the fun. That's why I liked him. This predates most of his antics that BD listed. The last straw for me was when he called out his receiver who was way, way underpaid for merely threatening to hold out to renegotiate his contract.

posted by bperk at 11:47 AM on August 20

I still think Favre is fun. I laugh every time I see that clip of him talking about not knowing the nickle defense and telling the other QB "That's it? Who cares!?!" when he explains to him that they take out a LB and putting in another DB. I still enjoy the clips of his mom saying he had stomach issues and the doctor told him to just release the gas whenever he needed to, and her saying "that's the worst thing he could have told him" (the clip then proceeds to show multiple farts in the huddle/sidelines/etc.).

The guy is just fun and that's why the media loves him. He does typify a "good ole boy" who enjoys the game and is just winging it out there, and plays like we like to think we would play.

But all that doesn't take away from the fact the guy is a egotistical, manipulative ass who is actually a pretty bad teammate. Although I have absolutely no ties to the Vikings/Packers or NFC in general, I will be rooting STRONGLY for him to fall flat on his face this year because of the latter.

posted by bdaddy at 12:17 PM on August 20

Don't forget Favre's time in Atlanta, where he was basically a drunk who only wanted to party and put absolutely no time in working on football with the team he played for. His antics forced the Falcons to part ways with him, not only making what would become one of the most second-guessed moves in the history of football, but setting the Falcons entire organization back.

The guy has always been talented and, many times, entertaining, but I agree with the sentiments above that remind us not to confuse him playing some good football over the years with him being a stand-up guy and spectacular teammate. He had memorable times in Green Bay, but in the end basically shoved it all up their asses. Add that to his disrespectful treatment of Atlanta, then leaving the Jets after getting their hopes up, his track record isn't real good. How he handles this Minnesota thing, especially if things don't turn out how he wants them to, will go a long way towards proving to me if Favre is a true Hall of Fame player or not (crazy as that may sound).

posted by dyams at 12:24 PM on August 20

An absolutely strong argument by bdaddy. Very good points! But when the Vikes play the Packers twice this year, my money is on just about anyone who knows a thing or two about sports or Favre's career will be watching that game regardless whether they agree with Favre's antics or not.

posted by BornIcon at 01:37 PM on August 20

Yes, humans love to rubber neck at a train wreck. But I refuse to, so I guess I know jack about sports or Farve since I will be seeking out a good game and not a soap opera the days those games are played.

posted by scully at 01:57 PM on August 20

BornIcon - You hit the nail on the head. We can spend all day discussing the merits and flaws of Bret Favre's personality or how he handles himself off the field throughout his career, but in the end it is what happens on the field that counts. There is a reason why this thread has our attention, the sports news guys can't stop talking about this, teams pay him huge and he is a shoe in for the Hall of Fame, he is simply one of the most successful, and exciting players the league has ever had.

I sure have heard a lot about his interceptions and forced passes, but I don't hear about how for most of his career he was the best come from behind quarterback the league had ever seen. You did not want Favre to get the ball with time on the clock if you had less than a touchdown lead. He always has been a clutch player and a winner.

For one minute forget personal thoughts of his personality. Football is a business, and teams treat players like property. They use them up, trade or release them without notice, and there is always someone in the wings waiting to take their job. Why on earth would you think that a player has one bit of responisbility to act differently toward the team? They have a contractual obligation and that is it. Teams do a lot of things like defer payments or manipulate contracts and trades to achieve their goals and stretch the rules under the cap for example. For the Packers to manipulate the trade with the Jets to keep Favre away from the division basically says they still feel he is a threat. For Favre to find away to wind up in Minnesota and sign a lucrative pro football contract, at his age, sort of makes a good argument that he may be much smarter than he is given credit for. I can't predict whether or not he will be successful this year or not, but how can any football fan not be more interested in the NFC Central this year because of all this.

DRAMA my friends is what feeds the sports revenue machine. I am certain Favre will not loose any sleep over the way Packer fans or ownership feel. If my ex employer fired me or let me out of my contract, even if it was for good reason, how could I be blamed for setting my own terms, looking for another job and getting hired with a fat salary. We would all do the same if given the opportunity. If I had his resume, successful track record etc, I too might feel I did not need to risk injury or subject my body to unnecessary wear and tear of some of the training camp activities. Regardless of whether or not it is a valid concern. He set his terms, the Vikings were willing to agree, both parties sign the contract. Now the fans get to watch the show. This couldn't be better as far as I am concerned. I hope he destroys the Packers this year just to score a point for the old guys. Had the Packers let him just play out his career there, today they would be no worse off and maybe would have had a better year last year. The fact remains that last year the Packers were far worse with out Favre, then they were the previous year, and the Jets were far better that they were the previous year. Now we will see if the Vikings are better. I am willing to bet his addition will improve their chances.

posted by Atheist at 02:37 PM on August 20

Ross Tucker of SI weighs in, and I agree with much of what he says.

posted by scully at 02:43 PM on August 20

Now we will see if the Vikings are better. I am willing to bet his addition will improve their chances.

They won their division last year. Are you going to bet that they do better than that this year? Second round of the playoffs? I might be inclined to take that bet.

posted by bperk at 02:47 PM on August 20

humans love to rubber neck at a train wreck...I guess I know jack about sports or Farve since I will be seeking out a good game and not a soap opera the days those games are played.

Since I'm going to believe that it's safe to assume that you are in fact human, you'll be watching just like the rest of us and Ross Tucker, who are you trying to kid? Com'on now, you can tell me. Who am I going to tell? HeHe..

posted by BornIcon at 03:30 PM on August 20

justgary - your comment only shows you missed my point. Favre was not being compared to criminals. My point was if the league and the fans can forgive major criminal behavior, surely forgiving a guy for changing his mind about retirement shouldn't be too difficult.

No, I get your point, and still find it ridiculous. It's like if I have a terrible neighbor, they're loud, their yard is awful, and their dog keeps shitting in my yard. You'd come along and say "hey, at least they're not criminals. maybe they're not so bad".

Honestly, from your comments, I don't think we're talking about the same subject. Forgiveness? Sports is just business?

Look, I just root against him because he's pretty much convinced me he's an ass. He's basically a spoiled child in a man's body. I don't root against clemens because he's a criminal or took steroids. I root against him because he's an ass. He's pretty much proven it his entire career, while Favre has only recently shown his true colors (probably because I wasn't paying attention). So the analogy is perfect for my intent. I gave the reasons one by one, and you bring up something I didn't mention because it has nothing to do with why I believe they're similar.

I'm stealing this from another site on a discussion on a non-athlete. It sums up my feelings pretty well:

And you Dawkins Favre fans have a right to your fandom, but you should stop trying to shame and silence those who have a problem with him.

Root for him. I'll be rooting against him. Let's go Karma.

posted by justgary at 03:41 PM on August 20

He's basically a spoiled child in a man's body

Sounds like pretty much all (if not most) pro athletes to me.

posted by BornIcon at 03:56 PM on August 20

justgary - Please understand that my position and interest in hoping Favre plays and has a good season is not about a personal like or dislike of Favre. Nor is it because of "fandom". I am not a Minnesota, Favre or Green Bay fan. Just a football fan, and although I don't generally like your Clemens or TO style drama, I just have to admit the whole interdivision rivalry, Packers vs Vikings, Favre vs Packers, payback soap opera scenario really raises the stakes IMO.

Favre's behavior has upped the ante substantially. Now he will not only have the normal pressure of performing, but failure will be 100 times worse because of the position he is now in. Just like with a world title fight, the drama is there but when you know the fighters really hate each other, have talked a lot of trash publicly, and there is real animosity and hatred, the fight is soooo much better to watch. When I was young I remember wanting to see someone shut Mohammed Ali's mouth because he talked so much. Eventually I began to love Ali for the fact that he put himself out there, put so much additional pressure on himself by talking, and then in the end backing it up with his performance.

This is why I am glad Favre is on the Vikings. Not because the Vikings are better or worse which remains to be seen, but because now these teams are both more interesting. How the Vikings decision regarding Favre and the Eagles decision regarding Vick pan out, add a lot of extra interest to this season. Favre's actions or antics if you will have only served the shine a much brighter light on his performance this year. Success will be that much sweeter and failure will be that much more embarassing and harsh. What is not to love about that? You got to admit if you hate him and he is terrible this year, won't that be more fun for you?

posted by Atheist at 04:19 PM on August 20

I sure have heard a lot about his interceptions and forced passes, but I don't hear about how for most of his career he was the best come from behind quarterback the league had ever seen.

Well you haven't heard about his comebacks from me, because I believe the reason he had to come from behind so much was BECAUSE of all the interceptions and forced passes. He was lucky in Green Bay to be part of an offense that allowed him to make up for those mistakes. He won't be having that type of offense in Minnesota (which is why I was debating it wasn't a good fit).

Like I mentioned early, the Packers tried to make him a game manager, and he had about 12 games or so of probably the best football he's ever played, but he just could not keep playing "subdued" like that, so eventually went back to his ways...which eventually leads to one of the most atrocious, throw it up for whoever wants it, passes in playoff history.

To me, that is what I remember of Favre, not just the tons of yards/TDs.

posted by bdaddy at 04:50 PM on August 20

He's basically a spoiled child in a man's body

Sounds like pretty much all (if not most) pro athletes to me.

That's pretty unfair, BI. And, I suspect that it isn't true at all. I know some professional athletes from my college days, and they are no more or less spoiled or immature than anyone else. The minority give the rest of them a bad reputation.

posted by bperk at 05:09 PM on August 20

That's pretty unfair, BI. And, I suspect that it isn't true at all. I know some professional athletes from my college days, and they are no more or less spoiled or immature than anyone else. The minority give the rest of them a bad reputation.

I suspect, however, that many elite (forget pro, that isn't really relevant) athletes are very self-centered. You kind of have to be, to get to that level and maintain competitiveness. You simply must devote a good amount of your time and energy to developing your own athletic ability, so an elite athlete -- or someone hoping to get here -- is a lot less likely than the average person to be spending tons of time and energy on people or things other than him/herself. The line between self-centered and selfish no doubt gets pretty fuzzy at times.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 05:31 PM on August 20

and the Jets were far better that they were the previous year

Favre wasn't the only addition the Jets made that year. There was also Alan Faneca, Calvin Pace, Dustin Keller, Jay Feely, and Kris Jenkins just to name a few.

posted by MrFrisby at 06:24 PM on August 20

We'll Never Forget You, Brent! [via bonzai on mefi]

posted by scully at 08:14 PM on August 20

Since I'm going to believe that it's safe to assume that you are in fact human, you'll be watching just like the rest of us

No. I won't. I don't watch reality television for the same reason. I have no interest in Bret Favre the player because I have no interest in Bret Favre the asshat.

And notice I am not someone wishing him injury, harm, loses, or anything else negative. I don't do schadenfreude either. I did mention looking forward to his playing against the Steelers' because I am a Steelers fan* and they have an awesome defense (again).

* also note I didn't rise to your smack talk about the Steelers above either.

posted by scully at 08:23 PM on August 20

or, terrapin, you can order one of these

Stay classy Minnesota!

(for the record, I do not condone the above item)

posted by dviking at 10:40 PM on August 20

Success will be that much sweeter and failure will be that much more embarassing and harsh. What is not to love about that? You got to admit if you hate him and he is terrible this year, won't that be more fun for you?
posted by Atheist

Agreed. Which is why I don't get your whole 'forgiveness' and 'it's just business' remarks.

My first comment was simply observing that i've gone from having a distant respect for Favre to hoping he fails completely. That doesn't mean that he gives a damn about public opinion (obviously), or that it's not good for business, or that he doesn't have the 'right' to change his mind. But I'm not sure how anyone, even a fan of Favre, can be blind to the circus he's created and not understand why some fans have jumped off the bandwagon.

Sounds like pretty much all (if not most) pro athletes to me.
posted by BornIcon

Well first, I have no idea what you're basing "most" on, much less all. I don't have any pro athlete friends. I can only go by actions, and you might as well put a circus tent over Favre at this point.

Second, I agree to a point with LBB. Professional athletes have been coddled their entire lives. Compared to you or I, they're probably going to have an inflated sense of self-worth. And that serves a purpose. That said, some are going to be more grounded than others. I disagree that you can throw a blanket over the entire lot of them and slap on a label. Though they have similarities, we're dealing with individuals. Would Troy Aikman have gone this route? I don't believe so. But since you think they're all the same, you would disagree.

Thirdly, I think it's quite clear from this thread and others your opinion of professional athletes is pretty poor (which is what you're basing #1 on), and no offense intended, if I agreed with your general view on the topic, I wouldn't be watching sports.

posted by justgary at 02:58 AM on August 21

That's pretty unfair, BI.

You act as if I'm the first person to make that observation.

Well first, I have no idea what you're basing "most" on, much less all. I don't have any pro athlete friends...I disagree that you can throw a blanket over the entire lot of them and slap on a label

Well let's see. Can I start off with Chad Ochocinco? How about Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, Brandon Marshall? Since those were just wideouts, should I turn to another position? How about QB's? Brett Favre anyone? How about other sports? Baseball? Basketball?

Not meaning to name drop but I do have a friend that's a former NFL wide reciever for the Cleveland Browns, Kevin Johnson. I speak to KJ on a regular and when he was in the league, he was a total diva. It wasn't intentional but that was the way he treated because of his position. When I asked KJ why did he act the way he did when he was in the NFL, he said that alot of players are that way given that they're millionaires right out of college and most let it go right to their heads. There are a few rare exceptions that stay level-headed but with the way the world is and the way we treat our star athletes, why would anyone be surprised about players being spoiled? Not all but most are.

I think it's quite clear from this thread and others your opinion of professional athletes is pretty poor (which is what you're basing #1 on), and no offense intended, if I agreed with your general view on the topic, I wouldn't be watching sports.

I'm going to assume that you were directing this comment at my direction but if I'm wrong, I apologize. Well, let me first say that shitting on someone's opinions but saying "no offense intended" doesn't really help with softening the blow. I love sports but I'm going to give my honest opinion about topics regardless if it's an unpopular opinion but I will listen to other people's opinions.

Would Troy Aikman have gone this route? I don't believe so. But since you think they're all the same, you would disagree.

Troy was my favorite QB growing up since I was born a Cowboys fan and no, I would put him in the spoiled category. I respect pro athletes for just about everything they do in their respective sport but if one so happens to shoot himself in the leg while out in a club and gets sent to jail for 2 years, therefore putting his life & career in jeopardy, I'm going to call it as I see it and say the guy is a fucking tool. Is that unfair?

posted by BornIcon at 07:59 AM on August 21

Sorry, I meant "I wouldn't put him in the spoiled category."

posted by BornIcon at 08:48 AM on August 21

How about Randy Moss

You'd want to look at Randy Moss a little closer. Real Sports did a segment on him years ago that changed my mind: he's very private, but he does some great stuff with kids and he seems to be a small-town guy at heart. Plus he owns a Dairy Queen.

posted by yerfatma at 09:06 AM on August 21

Granted, during Moss' run with the Patriots, he's been pretty quiet but let's remember when he was with the Vikings. The talk about him was that although he was beyond talented, he was a self-absorbed trouble maker that took plays off that didn't include him.

An athlete that may be spoiled doesn't necessarily make them a bad person, it just makes them human.

BTW, I love a nice, medium-sized Blizzard from DQ right about now. Mmmmmmmmmm....

posted by BornIcon at 09:18 AM on August 21

You simply must devote a good amount of your time and energy to developing your own athletic ability, so an elite athlete -- or someone hoping to get here -- is a lot less likely than the average person to be spending tons of time and energy on people or things other than him/herself.

I don't think that most people devote a ton of time and energy on other people and things, except their family which is pretty much an extension of themselves. Plus, focusing on your self and your career is something that most people do at one time or other. When I first left school, I worked 80 hours a week. I wasn't selfish. I was focused and busy. I don't see why an athlete doing the same thing with the same goal of career success indicates a character weakness of some kind.

Professional athletes have been coddled their entire lives.

Some pro athletes have been coddled by those who admired their athletic ability. A great deal of athletes are raised in poverty. What kind of coddling are we really talking about at that point. Teachers and coaches giving them a break or telling them how good they are?

I went to Florida State and the place was full of players that were stars before they got there and a much smaller number who were stars while they were there. Some of them were jerks, but I didn't notice them being jerks at a much greater rate than the rest of the population. They did get accolades and did get recognized, but they also worked harder than pretty much anyone else on campus. I think most athletes are not spoiled, coddled individuals, but talented and incredibly hard-working. They don't just sit and rest on their talent. And for every star QB there are many offensive lineman working very hard and not getting any attention for their work. We hear lots about the Favres and hear nothing about the vast majority that are toiling away in relative obscurity. Professional athletes are not given enough credit for they work they have to do to achieve their success.

posted by bperk at 10:07 AM on August 21

Professional athletes are not given enough credit for they work they have to do to achieve their success.

Credit? For what? Isn't it their job to be a hard-worker? Isn't it their job to be as good as humanly possible in their respective sport? At least that's why they get paid more so than the guy below them on the depth chart does, IMO.

That's like parents that want credit for watching their own children.

Isn't that what they're supposed to do?

posted by BornIcon at 11:13 AM on August 21

Credit? For what? Isn't it their job to be a hard-worker?

Did you just pick out one word out of my (too) long comment just to be hostile?

posted by bperk at 11:23 AM on August 21

Hostile? Now that's laughable. Dude, relax...I'm just responding to your post which was actually a pretty good read. I'm not going to comment on everything that you wrote since I didn't go to Florida State with you and so I wouldn't know the people that you speak of.

posted by BornIcon at 12:07 PM on August 21

Well let's see. Can I start off with Chad Ochocinco? How about Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, Brandon Marshall? Since those were just wideouts, should I turn to another position? How about QB's? Brett Favre anyone? How about other sports? Baseball? Basketball?

Exactly. You're basing "all or most" on a handful of players and one guy you know. That was my point. Now I can choose 500 athletes that never got in trouble, had any controversy, simply played then retired. I also know 1 professional athlete, and he was nothing like your friend. Honestly, I'm not sure how you can point at a handful of the worst athletes and believe that somehow colors them all. Yes, some athletes are jackasses. We knew that (some cops, some doctors, some being the key word).

Well, let me first say that shitting on someone's opinions but saying "no offense intended" doesn't really help with softening the blow.

Then take out 'no offense intended' because there was no shitting on your opinion. What I was trying to say is that we're on opposite sides of the fence on athletes in general, so discussion on this topic is pretty futile.

They did get accolades and did get recognized, but they also worked harder than pretty much anyone else on campus. I think most athletes are not spoiled, coddled individuals, but talented and incredibly hard-working.

You're putting more into my coddled statement than was there. I agree, most professional athletes work very hard. I also believe the elite athlete, from high school on, on average is coddled. And when we're talking about professional sports, the elite athlete even more so.

That doesn't mean that I don't respect most athletes. I do. And I don't find it an excuse for players like Favre.

posted by justgary at 04:25 PM on August 21

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