Maybe send 15yroldkid's post to the lawyer of the three black men in the Michael Richard's situation, seeing as how she/they are looking to profit from his tirade. I'm all for tolerance, freedom of speech, etc. but it's never that simple. It's not a word I'd ever use (in any form) when speaking to people of any race due to it's degrading definition in the past. Why can't it be left at that? Why does the word, or any form of it, have to be tolerated at all, whether it be by blacks or whites? Just because a few decades have gone by since the horrible struggles of blacks in this country, we should now just accept that this phrase can be allowed back into common, acceptable use? I don't buy it. Go speak to some senior citizens who had to live, along with their families, in a time when they couldn't ride on public transportation, had to use separate restrooms, couldn't eat in certain restaurants or go to many schools, etc. and see if they're OK with this whole debate. I guess maybe it's just like anything else; time allows most to forget the struggles, feelings and struggles of those who came before them. And the fact that the individuals who are responsible for bringing this to the masses the most, whether it be wealthy, highly-paid, privileged entertainers, athletes, whatever, is the saddest part of the issue.
I don't think people are forgetting the struggles, but there are different struggles now. And, the changing language may reflect that the racism now isn't as overt. Additionally, the people who are bringing nigga to the masses are the kids using it on the street who suddenly get blessed with a record contract. If they change and stop using that language, they can say good-bye to any success they might have had.
I don't think people are forgetting the struggles Oh, you don't? bperk, people have an unlimited capacity to ignore the struggles of others even while they're going on. Most people simply do not care if they're not personally in the wringer. Additionally, the people who are bringing nigga to the masses are the kids using it on the street who suddenly get blessed with a record contract. If they change and stop using that language, they can say good-bye to any success they might have had. How do you figure that? Are "we" so enamored of the n-word now that we won't buy a record by anyone who doesn't use it?
No excuse for the Kramer guy, but for the most part, people just need to stop being offended so easily. The world has gone mad with all of this political-correctness. Most people don't walk around getting offended all of the time. Yet we have all of this drama due to a few hyper-sensitive pansies. (Sorry I said pansies, pansies.)
I'm with Bill Lumbergh on this. The current politically correct bullshit is just that, bullshit. Freedom of speech is a fundamental right. People should have the right to express themselves anyway they feel like. They are only words. I once heard a comedian say he didn't do black jokes for fear of being mugged after the show. He didn't do Hispanic jokes for fear of being stabbed after the show. He didn't do Jewish jokes for fear of pissing off his accountant, lawyer and doctor. He didn't do women jokes for fear of not getting laid. But he still did gay jokes because he figured the worse that could happen was he might get a bad haircut.
People should have the right to express themselves anyway they feel like. They are only words. Except that's not quite true, is it? There are a couple of restrictions on the First Amendment that do make sense. Of course, none of this discussion is about personal rights, it's about thinking of the feelings of others, which is why you using this as a forum to post some tired set of ethnic tropes you heard an unnamed comedian say once seems terribly germane.
It's not a word I'd ever use (in any form) when speaking to people of any race due to it's degrading definition in the past. Why can't it be left at that? It's not a word I would use in any context either, and that probably goes for most of the people on this thread. That out of the way, I don't think it's possible (or even wise) to try to banish a word from the public vernacular. I think that even attempting this does two things: 1. it gives the word more intrinsic impact or cache, therefore giving it more power in private life. 2. it has no impact whatsoever on the underlying violence/bigotry/intolerance the word embodies. I think language, left to its own devices will naturally go its own way. The less bigoted a society becomes, the less powerful will be those words used to represent it. By way of comparison, there was a time when "queer" was a word was used to cast derision and bigotry on an entire group of people.* Many decades later, the word has no such lingering meaning. In fact, quite the opposite: it's often used with pride on behalf of those that who use it to self-identify. This process has been coincident generally, with a society that is more tolerant (or at least less hateful) of gays and gay culture. Now those two things may or may not be causal, but they did seem to accompany each other. As to the "n-word", I would say leave it alone. Some people will continue to use it to convey hatred, but such people are fewer and fewer (I hope) the further away from Jim Crow we get. But if people reclaiming the word for other usages hastens the evolution of the meaning of this word, perhaps so too will the attitudes that used to accompanied fall by the wayside. * I grant you there are significant differences between the struggles of homosexuals in this country from those of African-Americans, but it seemed at least a worthy allegory.
Freedom of speech is a fundamental right. People should have the right to express themselves anyway they feel like. This isn't about whether people have the constitutional right to say "nigga." It's whether people are right to say "nigga." Your free speech to say something is not abrogated by my speech saying you're wrong.
But the poor children! They'll see the athlete use the word and they'll use the word. Oh the poor children!! Do writers ever get sick of that line? You can use the word and not be prosecuted, that's the freedom of speech. Doesn't mean you won't get your ass kicked, or, in Michael Richards' case, possibly pay some sort of restitution and likely take a severe hit to the ol' career. Let's use some common sense here. There's a big difference between two friends using the word and some one using the word directed in hate at someone he doesn't know.
While we're on the topic of making words illegal and unlawful, I vote we make SummersEve change his name to, "the name referring to a product for feminine hygiene", so we don't offend people with no sense of humor. And it's ok to use the word nigger in a sentence when describing this situation. No one is going to break down your door, grab your computer, backhand you then storm out.
I vote we make him change his name to Douche. Let's use some common sense here. There's a big difference between two friends using the word and some one using the word directed in hate at someone he doesn't know. Ding ding. Winner. *hands Douche a poorly constructed carnival stuffed animal*
I hate you jerseygirl, you made coffee come out my nose.
By way of comparison, there was a time when "queer" was a word was used to cast derision and bigotry on an entire group of people.* Many decades later, the word has no such lingering meaning. In fact, quite the opposite: it's often used with pride on behalf of those that who use it to self-identify. This process has been coincident generally, with a society that is more tolerant (or at least less hateful) of gays and gay culture. Now those two things may or may not be causal, but they did seem to accompany each other. Wrong on several counts, most obviously on the "many decades" and the "no such lingering meaning", but also -- and most relevant to this argument -- on the ways in which the reclamation of the word "queer" came about. There are more differences than similarities, I'm afraid.
Ding ding. Winner. *hands Douche a poorly constructed carnival stuffed animal* I'd much rather have a jersey chair.
I think Howard Stern had it right. he used to regularly have a KKK er named Daniel Carver on his show. Carver use to spew his KKK philosiphy with every conceivable racial slur known to man. The irony was the more he talked the more he seemed like an ignorant ass. I think intelligent people can tell when a word is used in a hateful fashion. I certainly believe there is a proper place for almost any language. Those who are intelligent enough know when and where it is OK to use certain language and when it is not appropriate. Those who are not do what Michael Richards, Mel Gibson and others have done and basically use words to destroy themselves or expose themselves to others for what they really are. So in the case of someone like Richards, is it better to have censored him immediately, or allow him to expose himself. I for one prefer knowing.
Me personally, I think it's the stupidest thing I've heard come from the Black communnity. I mean, we can still call a person dumb, stupid, or ignorant right, what about Bitch, Hoe, Faggot, MuthaFucka? so what makes them any different than calling someone a Nigga or Nigger. See I am a 32 yr old Black Male, no I was not a part of what happened to our ancestors or our parents, but I know one thing, they weren't the only race being called niggers or negras. You know, people always gotta find something to Bitch about, why wasn't this brought up right after slavery was abolished? Or during the Civil Rights Movement? They wait until a White Nigger opens his mouth and says something stupid. All I am saying is, if you don't like the word don't use it, you don't see John Kerry or David Duke trying to put a ban on the words Honky, Cracka, or Peckerwood do you? Stop trying to put yourself in the spotlight(Jesse), and do something really constructive like trying to stop this war thats killing Niggas, Jews, Crackas,Chinks, WetBacks, and many many more our folks.
Well said MRAY74. I agree.
Good post MRAY74 ... welcome to spofi. Why am I called Craka, by the way? I always wondered what the hell that meant.
Because, The original Crackers(food) were White.
You know, people always gotta find something to Bitch about, why wasn't this brought up right after slavery was abolished? Because people were not calling their friends that. The issue isn't whether the word should be banned. The issue is whether black folks should continue using the word considering how ubiquitous it has become and the ramifications of continuing to use it. It has nothing to do with a ton of other slurs that have not entered the realm of pop culture.
Damn America, First they cancel PLUTO, NOW they trying to change the dictionary
You know, people always gotta find something to Bitch about, why wasn't this brought up right after slavery was abolished? Because we didn't have YouTube or the interwebs to view Michael Richards tirade on.
What the hell you mean? I don't understand what you are sayin.Just because I decide to call my partna out of his name, does that make this a bad word? Or how about me calling you Bitch? That word is in POP Culture to the extreme. But it is calling someone out of their name.
This seems like a good time to (re-)introduce some of you guys to the guidelines. This thread was kind of close to the edge to start with.
Yeah, but I'm not your partna.
SpoFi GuidelinesTM! Welcome to SpoFi, MRAY74! Check out the guidelines, they're a pretty good primer for our site.
Those posts are part of a path, not a stopping point. Well put, chico...
I prefer podna. Or pojo, if you're really Cajun about it.
Because, The original Crackers(food) were White. Man, that's messed up. That must be when we invented the Ritz.
Exactly...
Seriously, MRAY74. Read those guidelines. They're how this site rolls. Now, at the risk of muddying the waters further, Paul Lukas at UniWatch brings us this team photo postcard from around 90 years ago.
In Colonial times the word "rascal" was the unspeakable insult that raised this kind of emtion.
The same thing happened with "queer," I wouldn't quite say it's ok to be called "queer" or "a queer". Why am I called Craka, by the way? I actually learned in my African American history class that "crackers" were actually the people who would whip the slaves (some were black), a lot of them were poor white people who worked for the plantation owner. I guess it's meant to cause shame, but since I have never enjoyed the benefits of owning a slave, I can't accept the shame that would go with it. My family arrived here from Germany in the 1890's and were treated pretty poorly themselves.
As a Caucasian American I am personally ok with my friends calling me cracka, as in "cracka please". I do however, take it very personally when it denigrates to namecalling like zwybeck or nilla wafer. I just won't tolerate that shit. Seriously, I am an adamant believe in free speech. To me, the question is whether or not your audience will be offended and whether or not you care. Most of the friends and family that I have who are African American find the term offensive so I don't use it.
I enjoy crackers. Crisp, airy, delicious with cheese or any of a bevy of toppings, really. You can dress them up or down and it's all good. Whats not to love.
i would never use the word. if idid there would be somebody right there and tell me im a hater or something like that. i mean our kids use the term as well but if we ever used it around african americans they would kick our asses...
You let your kids use it?
my children would never use that term either, i meant the kids around the reservation. just so you know...
In colonial times the word "rascal" was the unspeakable insult that raised this kind of emtion. I bet many folks do not know what a scalawag really was.
regardless of how you use the term. it is not right. when your friends use it as just a greeting or to say hello. It is still the same word. Ni***R. Regardles, if you try to cover it up by using N "ah" at the the end it still echoes the same meaning of the past. Black Man.
Just stop. Are you sane? Do you think it is okay? Use your Flippin head. Appropriate situation? Not appropriate? Next question. Let's move on to a question that merits SpoFi brainpower.
This is the funny part "Black folk, you can't have it both ways. You can't pronounce the word nigga when speaking to your friends, then get mad when a white/nonblack guy calls you a nigger. So from here on out, if we (white/nonblack) people can't call you nigger, you(black athlete/entertainer) are not allowed to use the word either." Wow. And to the person that asks where Jesse and Al are; An Internet blogger wrote, "as if it wasn't insulting enough to be called nigger, we have the guilty party running to Jesse and Al as if they are the Pope's of the entire Black race. The guilty running to Jesse or Al every time an offense is committed is actually more racially degrading then being called nigger." I know older Black folk that don't understand why the younger generation use the term, I know younger guys that believe Tupac was the 2nd coming, and take everything he said to be law for the hiphop generation. It all boils down to intent. The average American, regardless of race, knows if they are being insulted or not, but to try to tell someone else when they should or shouldn't be insulted is just ridiculous.
but to try to tell someone else when they should or shouldn't be insulted is just ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as trying to tell people what they can and can't say.
Word.
I actually learned in my African American history class that "crackers" were actually the people who would whip the slaves Ask for a refund.
Almost as ridiculous as trying to tell people what they can and can't say. Who told people what they can and can't say? This strawman has been explicitly debunked multiple times in this thread, so why are you bringing it up? Pay for godsakes attention and read what other people are saying if you're gonna participate in these threads.
We are not at liberty to dismiss the injustices of the past until we've set them right, and to use a word that is deeply connected with those injustices and claim it's nothing but a term of friendship is a reprensible act. Agreed on the injustices part - but words are contextually bound. Using the word as a term of friendship isn't a "claim". You cannot ascribe context in the abstract, any more than you can ascribe offense to a party that hasn't taken any.
I'm not addressing anyone in particular, I just asked a question, now that I've expressed my views, I can move on. No attacks on other members. But thanks to all for responding to my comments.
Ask for a refund. That bastard had me fooled. He had a Masters from Cornell... However, I wouldn't trust everything you read on the internet. This dude had studied Afro history for 20+ years. I think he might know more on the topic than Wikipedia. Do some better research.+ Pay for godsakes attention and read what other people are saying if you're gonna participate in these threads. "Do as I say, not as I do..." If you read the above discussion you will find out exactly what I am talking about. Now back to your dungeon gimp.
This dude had studied Afro history for 20+ years. I think he might know more on the topic than Wikipedia. Do some better research.+ Who needs research? Folk etymologies stink from a mile away. Are we at the point now where Wikipedia can only be used as a citation to prove the negation of whatever appears in Wikipedia? Or are you composing a reply that actually has something other than your memories of what some teacher said as a source?
Clarence Major, in his Dictionary of Afro-American Slang, lists two rather interesting ideas about the origin of the term. The first is that a "cracker" was a slang term used by 19th Century Georgian slaves to refer to the slavemasters. If this were in fact, true, then the term would come directly from the cracking of the slavemaster's whip. This is quite a peculiar theory, because it would immediately explain the negative connotation that the word has taken. However, there seems to be little or no support for this theory, and no other source that was studied mentions it. Etymology of the word cracker.
"Cause what the world needs now, is another folk singer, like I need a hole in my head" - Cracker
This dude had studied Afro history for 20+ years. I think he might know more on the topic than Wikipedia. Hopefully he passed out some citations with those class notes. Because the Wikipedia entry has 'em, and they're convincing. Would love to see yours in rebuttal; this question is rather interesting.
yay-yo: "Do as I say, not as I do..." If you read the above discussion you will find out exactly what I am talking about. I will, will I? Here's what I find, regarding, as you put it, "trying to tell people what they can and can't say": rcade: "This isn't about whether people have the constitutional right to say "nigga." It's whether people are right to say "nigga." Your free speech to say something is not abrogated by my speech saying you're wrong." SummersEve: "You can use the word and not be prosecuted, that's the freedom of speech. Doesn't mean you won't get your ass kicked, or, in Michael Richards' case, possibly pay some sort of restitution and likely take a severe hit to the ol' career." bperk: "The issue isn't whether the word should be banned. The issue is whether black folks should continue using the word considering how ubiquitous it has become and the ramifications of continuing to use it." kyrilmitch_76: "Seriously, I am an adamant believe in free speech. To me, the question is whether or not your audience will be offended and whether or not you care. Most of the friends and family that I have who are African American find the term offensive so I don't use it." So where's what you're talking about? Where's anyone trying to tell people what they can and can't say? Now back to your dungeon gimp. I see you still haven't made the effort to read the SpoFi Guidelines. You might want to make the effort. There are other sites where personal attacks and derogatory terms fly just fine, but this -- as the guidelines make explicit -- is not one of them.
MrFrisby's on to something, Cracker came from Camper Van Beethoven. Case closed. If you follow yerfatma's wikipedia link and click on Etymology of "cracker" by Professor Kim Pearson and scroll about half way down you'll see this: 1842 BUCKINGHAM, The Slave States of American (London, 1842, p.210) They are called by the twos people "Crackers," from the frequency with which they crack their large whips, as if they derived a peculiar pleasure from the sound. (OED) From bperk's link: Of its peculiar dual nature, Irving Allen writes, "'Cracker' is a positive or at least a humorous self-label for many Georgians. But in and beyond Georgia it was and remains a class epithet, and is more recently a black term for any white, Southerner or Northerner, who is thought to be a racist" So southern whites took a derogatory term and turned into a self-label. And some folks have done that in current times with another derogatory term. I'm no psychologist, but could there be something there? You insult me, I'll turn your insult around by using as a sort of term of endearment?
I'm no psychologist, but could there be something there? Nope. Move along. No poignant observations here.
I'm sorry LBB, if only you would have done a google search and looked at more than one source, you would have found MULTIPLE origins of the term "cracker", one being used to describe the slavemaster, as I stated. Maybe instead of you attacking my educational background, you could put yours to better use and do some research. I was just adding something that I had learned to the discussion, your little jab hit home and I apologize for reacting. Maybe you need to look at the guidelines that you are so quick to recite everytime someone calls you out for being an antagonist.
Check this out! This site has an example of many different roots of the word "Craker". It also has the etymology of the word "Nigger". (and some other interesting words of hate)
I've never suggested closing a thread in the time that I've been here, but I don't think this 1 has anywhere else to go but down. It's so far away from sports related that it is almost back around to being sports related. Some new members do not read every post, and if a young African American man/woman joins and thumbs through this, they might get the wrong idea about most of the members here ( and the right idea about some of the members here). The last thing we need to do is offend some new members with a bunch of non-sports related garbage. This bs started with a suggestion about the word nigga as opposed to nigger in todays culture and how you can't change the meaning, as if this wasn't already done with the semi-non-offensive word "negro" ( as in negro-league)being changed to the hyper-offensive word nigger. From Wikipedia: The Spanish word negro originates from the Latin word niger, meaning black. In English, negro or neger became negar and finally nigger, most likely under influence of French ngre (also derived from the Latin niger). I say be done with it and move on.
