CB, the point that you're forgetting is that we're talking about colleges here. Their purpose is to educate students. Sports, even the profitable ones, are secondary. The kids are there, at least ostensibly, to obtain a degree. If they happen to be good enough at their sport to earn a scholarship, they get 4-5 years of free room and board, an opportunity to earn a free degree (which a woeful number actually take advantage of), an extensive education and training program in their sport (how many of you know of a single high school player who could jump straight to the NFL?), and an opportunity to display their potential in a national spotlight. At best, college football is an apprenticeship program. I stipulated before that the intense nature of many of the programs today makes it all but impossible for the kids to earn money elsewhere, so a stipend system makes sense to me. I don't expect a bunch of college kids to survive on campus with zero cash. Still, the majority of their compensation comes in the form of extensive training (which is the only thing that makes it possible for most of the ones who turn pro to do so) and PR which gets the pro teams interested in their services. In return, they make money for the school. The athletes are trainees, and not even trainees who'll be sticking around for awhile making money for the school after their training is complete. As soon as they think they have the skills to be drafted, they're gone. Something else that nobody seems to be considering is that the skill of the athletes is only a small part of what draws crowds to the stadiums. Fans, especially alums, are nuts for their teams, even in mediocre years. Look at the run of bad seasons Penn State had until last year. Sometimes, they were downright putrid, but they still crowded into Happy Valley. The same was true at Notre Dame during their recent struggles. Michigan sucked last year, but sold out every week. The fans will bitch if the athletes and coaches fail to perform, but they still plant their asses in the seats every Saturday. If failure becomes a habit, that can change, but it takes a lot to overcome that kind of loyalty. The point is that fan loyalty is at least as much responsible for the schools making money as the athletes are. If that weren't the case, we'd have dozens of minor league football teams spread from coast to coast, packing in rabid fans just like the colleges do now, and the kids would be getting paid and wouldn't have to even pretend to be interested in higher education. The exact same talent level, playing for the Clarksville Crushers, wouldn't be a blip on anybody's radar. The truth is that the fans LOVE their college football, and the athletes know that playing on a high profile team is their ticket to the big bucks of the NFL. Without the additional training and exposure they get from the colleges, the athletes are screwed, and they know it. As the system is now, the athletes get immeasurable assistance in reaching for a pro career and, if they're not good enough, they were also given the opportunity to obtain a degree which should still make it possible for them to make a fine living (if they took advantage of it), and they got all of this to play a game that they, almost to a man, say they love. Do the football programs make a profit? Sure, most do. Do the athletic departments make a profit? Most don't. Football revenues pay for a ton of expenses for the less successful sports, and that's often the only way those sports programs even stay afloat. What I'm saying is that it's not like the university fat cats are lining their pockets with all that cash. Finally, as to coaches getting endorsement money and players not, you're comparing apples and oranges. Like I said, players are trainees (for what will probably be VERY lucrative careers). The coaches, on the other hand, are employees of the college. The college isn't training the coach, it's demanding that he do an outstanding job of training young people. That IS his profession, and he's already way past the training stages. He's expected to be in it for the long haul, and to take a new crop of punk kids every year and integrate them into an existing unit, and somehow produce a championship caliber team. If he's good enough that companies want his endorsement, all well and good. If the athletes are gaining some level of fame, it's because the school provided the stage for them. That's not true of a coach, unless he's a success. Individual players, on the other hand, can shine on even rotten teams. Oklahoma State was never exactly a powerhouse, but that didn't keep Barry Sanders from lighting up scouts' eyes everywhere. Still, could he have played in the NFL straight out of high school? Somehow, I doubt it.
Ctal, with all do respect, please go back and read my posts. My major complaint has not been about money so much as it is about the amount of control that the NCAA has over every part of the player/students life. I have at no time pointed a finger at the schools, other then to compare the coaches being able to take endorsment even though they are paid by the school. Quite the opposite, I have lauded the school and the spouse's of the coach's for being willing to help. Twice I have said that I don't expect the students to get rich, just be treated fairly. I will say it again, this young man should be allowed to take care of his family without having to kiss the NCCA's ass for permission. I have been accused of assuming all students are block heads and corrupt. It's the NCAA that has a rule to cover every situation. So I will say this one more time, HOW THIS MAN TAKES CARE OF HIS FAMILY IS NONE OF THE NCAA's FUCKING BUSINESS. As for the contention that the NCAA is not running a farm system for the NFL, that is precisely what they are doing. The reason the NFL has the three year rule for players is to compel them to play college football. True, an athlete comming out of high school is not ready to play pro-ball. So if the players were not comming from college, they would have to come from somewhere. Which would mean setting up their own farm system.
CB, seriously, you need to make up your mind... I asked before and no one gave me an answer, why is it so evil for the players to have some money in their pockets? Someone gives you an answer an you respond with: Ctal, with all do respect, please go back and read my posts. My major complaint has not been about money so much as it is about the amount of control that the NCAA has over every part of the player/students life. You've done it several times. I know, "play the ball not the body", but this is like trying to argue with a talk radio host. My final comment: Scholarship athletes are eligible to apply for Pell Grants if they need them. Many schools give money, (typically around $600/month) for housing if they choose to live off campus. I don't know about today, but back in the mid 90's athelets got travel per diems that were way more than they needed especially when they were usually fed by the school. I assume that pocket money is still out there. Also, if a student comes up with some sort of an invention in a chem lab while taking a class, guess who profits? That's right, the school. The student will profit later in life once he/she gets out in the marketplace with that on the ol resume', but the school will own the patent. Here's Northwestern's policy as an example. Sounds a lot like what you guys are arguing is so unfair for athletes, doesn't it? Look, I don't like a lot of what the NCAA does either. But the asshole faction of the coaches created the beast and now they have to deal with it. You have to "kiss ass" to get a waiver. Such is life in the bureaucratic bullshit society we live in. Compare all the "no gifts or assistance" rules to all the doping rules. All kinds of items end up on the prohibied list because people use them as masking agents. Some scumbag figured out Rogaine hides some PED and now an athlete can't use Rogaine. Similarly, some scumbag realized you can give a kid's little sister a teddy bear and he'll go to the school you want him to go to. now you can't give a kid's little sister a teddy bear. It sucks, it sounds stupid and overbearing, but it's a necessary evil. In case of need, as in this case, the rules can be waived. Major college sports would not exist if not for the NCAA. To say the orginization doesn't encourage competitive balance, and then to say "let's pay college athletes" in the same breath is contradictory. And there are rule-breakers out there, but every rule is broken soemwhere and nothing is 100%. At least there's the threat of getting SMU'ed if you go too far. Believe it or not but these rules do have the kids in mind. If boosters start handing out cash and Hummers (ahem) to anyone with any talent, how much do you thinks the odds that that kid stops doing school work will increase? Maurice Clarette times 100. There's a place where athelets get paid, it's called pro sports. Plus, if college sports became hired guns with no academics what so ever, the life would be sucked out of the game, and the boosters of the 10 schools that were still competitve would more than likely fade away, and they'd take their money with them. You say, "oh, it happens anyway," in regards to boosters handing out gifts, and it probably does, but there's a limit because of the threats of getting caught, and the majority of kids still get some kind of education. Bottom line, it's a symbiotic relationship, Notre Dame could find another Brady Quinn. Brady Quinn could have played in a semi-pro league in hopes of catching someone's eye. But he went to Notre Dame and Notre Dame gets his services, in exchange, he has a double major for his post-football days and he's caught the eye of every pro scout in the world. Holy shit this is long, but it had to be to make the point. SummersEve OUT!
Well said.
Bottom line, it's a symbiotic relationship, Notre Dame could find another Brady Quinn. Brady Quinn could have played in a semi-pro league in hopes of catching someone's eye. But he went to Notre Dame and Notre Dame gets his services, in exchange, he has a double major for his post-football days and he's caught the eye of every pro scout in the world. Agreed, depending on what you meant by symbiotic, because ND certainly derived a much larger benefit from the relationship than Quinn did. So if you meant the school's relationship was parasitic, we're all in agreement.
So, yerfatma, if Brady Quinn played for Grand Rapids Community College (a perennial contender for the national championship among jr. colleges), he'd still be the big deal that all the NFL scouts are slavering over, right? Of course not. He'd still have the same natural talent, but that's only a small part of the picture. So, why's he a big deal now? Because he plays at Notre Dame, where he can build on that natural talent with the finest in coaching, physical development and care, and where the fans will pack the stands, buy the memorablia like crazy, and watch every televised minute if they can't be at the stadium. I know a kid right now who is a great receiver (he set the Michigan high school receiving record), and he was offered a full ride at Wisconsin. For a variety of reasons, he chose to stay closer to home and is playing at Grand Valley State University. It's a good school with multiple championships (albeit, not in Div. I-A), but do you think that he'll get anywhere near as much attention there as he would have at Wisconsin? Not a chance! Brady Quinn is on a track to be a very, very rich man and it's due in large part to the fact that he's at Notre Dame and not Wyoming. Does a student make a ton of money while he's earning his degree in finance? Not likely, but he'll probably make a ton later (if he's actually good at it). Granted, the finance student doesn't make money for the school, but it's also a hell of a lot cheaper to train him (his tuition alone will usually more than cover the expense). The premiere athletes don't pay any tuition, and the cost of running the athletic department (which is the main source of their education in that lucrative field) requires huge sums of money. As has been pointed out, most athletic departments lose money. They may generate a lot of revenue, but their expenses are even higher. What it boils down to is that Quinn, and all the other high profile players bring in quite a bit of cash for the school, but they're basically in a "work-study" program which will make them very wealthy later on (just like that pesky finance student). If the player isn't good enough to go pro, then he damned well better have taken advantage of the free education. So, is Notre Dame bringing in a substantial amount of money because they have Quinn at QB? Yep. Will he be a multimillionaire later because of the training and exposure he got playing there? Again, yep. Sounds like a pretty fair trade to me.
Will he be a multimillionaire later because of the training and exposure he got playing there? Again, yep. Sounds like a pretty fair trade to me. Looks, we're obviously not going to agree, so I'm going to drop it. If you can't see that Quinn isn't guaranteed those millions you speak of (unless you think there's no injury risk, no risk of getting hit by a bus, etc) while Notre Dame does make millions off the efforts of their football players, we don't have a common ground to work from.
And if you can't see that the risk/reward ratio is HUGELY in his favor, then you're right, we'll never see eye to eye on this one.
Right, because he's the one person in a million who has a chance of being a good NFL quarterback. Why he should have to spend 4 years in intentured servitude is beyond me. What's stranger than that is folks who would root for the owners and beneficiaries of such a system.
Four years of indentured servitude? Indentured servants worked off debts, usually for passage to America, by doing menial work until their debt was paid (usually at a ridiculously high price). They got no training, per se, had no doors opened for them, and worked themselves to death simply to earn the right to start from scratch. Hardly an apt analogy, but even if I accept the premise, many of the "best of the best" come out after their sophomore and junior years. If he's that damned good, he could be playing pro ball right now. Since he's still at ND, it's by his choice alone.
He can't play in the NFL until after his high school class has been out of school for three years. Or after his junior year. It's rare for players to make the NFL by comming out of the arena league and unheard of from the minor leagues. So you tell me what choice he has if he wants to play football.
If he's talented enough to play right out of high school, why does he need to go to college? Sure, none of the pro teams know about him in that situation, but if he's that great a talent, why wouldn't he be noticed in the arena league or a semi-pro league if he put his three years in there? Maybe because those leagues don't have the infrastructure to get him to his physical peak? Maybe because they don't have the quality of coaching to teach him the game well enough that he can adapt to the NFL? Face it, the vast majority of players wouldn't stand a snowballs' chance in hell of making an NFL roster straight out of high school. The arena and semi-pro leagues can't train them to the level needed either. College programs are what prepare them for the intense world of the NFL (both physically and mentally). You're right that he has no choice if he wants to play in the NFL, but it's not because the school is getting over on him. It's because the school is the only place that he can get the training he needs, and he'd better be thankful that they want to.
If he's talented enough to play right out of high school, why does he need to go to college? Do you seriously not know? Because the NFL fought in court to prevent such a thing from happening because the current system moves almost all of the risk onto the player's side of the equation. They are forced into the college system where they are barely compensated, then subject to a draft process that reduces their earning potential futher. At this point I have to ask if you seriously are a fan of old white guys who run stuff. Are there card collections of NFL owners and NCAA board members one can collect?
Are you seriously telling me that the NFL owners would turn their collective back on potential superstars just so the big NCAA programs could get rich? That's exactly what you're implying. I'm assuming the court action you refer to has to do with the age restrictions (which the NBA has learned its' lesson from and instituted a version of as well). You think the 3 year rule is there because they don't want a capable player, regardless of age? Hell, half the NFL owners would sell their own mothers for a shot at the next big thing. So why in the world would they turn away an 18 year old prodigy? Maybe because one lesson they've learned from the spectrum of pro sports over the last few years is the concept of "too much, too soon". Regardless of talent, the vast majority of fresh high school grads aren't capable of wrapping their heads around the real world (if you can call it that) of the NFL or NBA. It's too big a step, and all too often, it gets messy. With individual sports like tennis and golf, most kids play a lot at the national amateur level before they go pro, and if they go pro at a very tender age, they usually have a parent attached at the hip and a long term one-on-one coach for guidance. On top of that, they don't see any big money until they start to win (Wie and Woods are the exceptions, not the rule). MLB and the NHL have well established farm systems where their future superstars can get the maturity and seasoning needed. The NBA has the CBA, but most good players come straight from college (and the teams just have to hope that they're ready for it). The NFL has NFL Europe and the AFL (and why in the world would they have officially affiliated with the arena folks if their main interest is propping up the NCAA as the only route into the league?). If the NFL or NBA owners thought that they could take 18 year old phenoms on a regular basis and not have more downside than upside, they'd do it. Right or wrong, it's been decided that in more cases than not, there's more downside to bringing kids in young than there is upside, hence the 3 year policy. I don't believe for one minute that the NFL owners are willing to hurt their own product in order to pad the pockets of university and NCAA big wigs. They just realize that the college game is a better training ground than their minor league systems, which at this point are mostly about developing late bloomers and interest outside the U.S. Can a kid learn enough in the arena league to play NFL ball if he didn't play in college? Probably. Would he be better prepared if he followed the ideal projection of starring in front of 2,000-3,000 fans at his high school to walking the sidelines in front of 80,000-100,000 at a major college, then getting some playing time, and finally starring at that level? A young man who's gone that route is a lot better prepared to enter the NFL environment than a kid straight out of high school or even a kid who's walked on with an arena team and played well. Even at that, we constantly hear about young players who have a very hard time making the transition. MLB players usually go through college first, then the farm system until the team decides they're ready for the bigs. Maybe the NFL should do the same and have their draft picks get their feet wet in Europe first, then call them to the NFL when they're determined to be ready. Still, until the NFL does improve its' farm sytem, the NCAA oversees by far the best NFL training ground. That makes them evil how again? Oh yeah, because athletic departments that lose money for the most part, don't pay players.
