FanDuel - WFBC

April 29, 2007

Pats Making Move For Moss: If Randy Moss becomes a Patriot, the only question remaining will be: What possible excuse for not producing can he come up with now?

posted by dyams to football at 10:37 AM - 59 comments

I can't believe all the moves the Pats have made this offseason. It looks like it's SuperBowl or nothing for Belichik this year.

posted by usfbull at 10:52 AM on April 29

What possible excuse for not producing can he come up with now? Really? Moss is a bit of a prima donna maybe, but he's a borderline hall of fame receiver, too.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 10:58 AM on April 29

During one of Dan Patrick's radio shows this past week, he was going on about how Brett Favre was expecting Moss to be his new top receiver this coming season.

posted by NoMich at 11:05 AM on April 29

Mr. JG is pleased about Moss being a Patriot.

posted by jerseygirl at 11:41 AM on April 29

Is Reche Caldwell coming back too? I'd be a bit concerned about the Pats if there were two guys trying to put the "I" in Team. On the positive side, we'll get to see if Billick really is a Jedi. "These are not the primadonnas you're looking for..."

posted by mikelbyl at 11:42 AM on April 29

Billick is the former warden on Prison Break. Belichick is the coach of the Patriots.

posted by jerseygirl at 11:53 AM on April 29

Are you sure you don't need a former warden for Randy? Generally the Patriots seem to have built a very team-focused group, and Randy just doesn't seem to fit that, even if he is very good. (And even if he was obtained practically for free!)

posted by tieguy at 12:24 PM on April 29

Well, this will be interesting. tieguy, my prediction is that he'll fit in or he'll ride the bench. If his agent is worth the powder to blow him up, he's making very sure right now that if a trade happens, it will happen with that understanding.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 12:45 PM on April 29

This is a train robbery. Moss may be a handful but a Fourth Round pick is almost nothing compared to the talent that Moss can bring to the field. Great job by the Patriots to pick him up.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 12:46 PM on April 29

After the Owens mess in Philly, it's difficult to get good value for a guy like Moss. Surprised a team like the Patriots would go after someone of his ilk. What the Patriots have that the Eagles didn't is a team that is strongly united and will not allow one man to break them apart. Moss will either fit in or suffer.

posted by DudeDykstra at 01:01 PM on April 29

Wow. Thats all i can say. The Pats look like a probowl team now.

posted by kyjac1 at 01:25 PM on April 29

Sulking for two full seasons in Oakland surely reduced RM's trade value. If he really only wanted to go to GB or NE and the GMs were aware of it, then that further reduced the price. Whatever he does for the Patriots I'm just as happy to have him out of the local scene.

posted by billsaysthis at 01:48 PM on April 29

Surprised a team like the Patriots would go after someone of his ilk. I wonder about Randy Moss' "ilk". The little honest, off-the-field stuff I've seen of him (on Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel) made him seem like a bright guy who didn't have a lot of interest in the seriousness around the NFL. He's made some poor choices, but I am excited to see how this all works out. He's certainly saved the local sports scene from a boring Pats draft. Can't wait to see how the real racists on 'EEI handle Moss' first two touchdown 150 yard effort. If it happens.

posted by yerfatma at 02:04 PM on April 29

...but he's a borderline hall of fame receiver, too. If Moss has the sort of season of which I believe he is fully capable, he will cross the border - legally. I fully agree with DudeDykstra's assessment. The talking heads on ESPN are saying that Belichick ran the Moss deal past most of the locker room leaders on the team. All were in agreement with the choice. I look for him to have an excellent season. With Moss and Stallworth in the 2 wide receiver sets, and Watson at tight end, many problems will be presented for a defense. Add the slot receiver to the mix (Wleker) and you have something that may very well be unstoppable.

posted by Howard_T at 02:12 PM on April 29

Indianapolis took WR Anthony Gonzales of Ohio State in the first round. Both teams thinking offense first. Seems like the Patriots focus more on matching up against the Colts than any division rivals. What possible excuse for not producing can he come up with now? I might say that about Tom Brady at the end of next season.

posted by Newbie Walker at 03:35 PM on April 29

So who is the better fantasy pick this year...Moss or Stallworth?

posted by ggermanctl at 03:39 PM on April 29

If Moss works his tail off during the year, there is little aside from injuries that will stop the Pats from having one of their most dominant O's during the Belichick era. Question is, is there d good enough to keep manning from scoring three touchdowns in the second half to beat them? Can any pats fan clue me in on how their d will be this year? If it is solid (not even the best), i can't help but think that the Pats will go all the way this year.

posted by brainofdtrain at 04:55 PM on April 29

Hey Randy, lightning never strikes the same place twice. Take advantage of the SB opportunity this year in NE. It may never happen for you again.

posted by bavarianmotorworker at 05:24 PM on April 29

brainoftrain: They added Adalius Thomas, Tory James, and Eddie Jackson; franchised Asante Samuels (though haven't signed him yet), and used their first first-rounder on safety Brandon Meriweather. The Thomas addition will make the biggest impact, but assuming that they work out a contract with Samuels they'll be bringing back almost every starter on a defense that set a franchise record for fewest allowed points in a season. The thing I'm absolutely shocked about is that Moss agreed to restructure his contract to the extent that he did. the Boston Globe is reporting he was originally slated to get almost $10 million next year and after the restructure he'll be getting about $3 million (plus incentives). As a life-long Pats fan, this makes me feel even better about this deal knowing they've gone out of their way to minimize the risk involved financially. They've addressed one of their glaring holes from last season (wide-out), gained depth in the secondary (which was decimated late last year), and signed one of the biggest names in the FA market. I don't know how anyone could not put this team in the top 2 or 3 teams with the best chance to win it all next year.

posted by turacma at 05:35 PM on April 29

Hey brainofdtrain, in response to your q about the D, I've got 2 words for you: Adalius Thomas. They were already the 6th-7th best D last year, and that was with various injuries depleting them during the course of the season. Do you really think Indy could have come back on them if just Harrison and Seau had been in there? I know every team has to deal with injuries, so I'm not using it as an excuse, but I really don't think the D will be that much of an issue. Brandon Meriweather was considered a solid prospect who slid due to his part in that riot of a football game. They'll probably pick up 1 or 2 free agents to shore up the secondary and go to battle with what they have. My main question is, who will they get the ball to all of these guys enough to keep them happy? Its almost as if Kraft and Pioli are channeling Steinbrenner & are trying to put together a fantasy roster! edit: turacma beat me by seconds!!

posted by crqri at 05:35 PM on April 29

crqri, I may have beat, you, but I didn't do a very good job of proof-reading my post. My apologies to brainofdtrain. crqri: you bring up a valid point about who will get catches. There's now a glut of wide-outs. I suspect that, much like last season when they had seemingly signed every older DB on the market, a lot will fall out during training camp and preseason schedule. My expectation (echoed by the talking heads at the Globe) is that Stallworth and Moss will most likely be the 1-2 guys, Welker the primary slot receiver while everyone else (Caldwell, Gafney, et al) will fight out for the remaining playing time. Considering a lot of the guys they signed have had a history of injuries at certain points in their careers I'm glad they have a bunch to pull from.

posted by turacma at 05:58 PM on April 29

Moss will keep his mouth shut as long as Tom Brady can get him the ball. With Stallworth in the two slot, no team can afford to double cover Moss. I can just picture him jumping over any corner in the league on a one-on-one fly route 60-yards downfield. This years Pat's team has a shot at 19-0 assuming no one gets injured and I'm saying this as a guy who hates the Patriots. I am shocked the way the NFL is set up (salary cap, FA, etc.) that a team could get so much help in one offseason. the only way this team doesnt win it all is if Tom Brady doesnt show up for the Super Bowl.

posted by the legend at 07:36 PM on April 29

If New England wants Moss to be the player he was in his first years at Minnesota they sould throw whatever money it takes at Chris Carter to be on their staff. Carter is the only one who has consistantly gotten the best out of Moss. As soon as Carter retired the old Randy from Marshall showed up. I don't claim to know if it is rivalry or respect or fear, but Moss acted like a pro when Carter was around.

posted by gradioc at 08:52 PM on April 29

Moss or Stallworth? Give me Dante anytime.....at least he TRIES to catch balls below his knees. More than I can say for Randy.

posted by wdminott at 09:02 PM on April 29

Don't be shocked if the Pats are winning their 4th Superbowl around Jan.10 or so.

posted by sickleguy at 09:15 PM on April 29

Don't be shocked if the Pats are winning their 4th Superbowl around Jan.10 or so. Now, that would be impressive, seeing as Super Bowl XLII isn't scheduled to be played until February 3rd.

posted by tommytrump at 10:26 PM on April 29

ne is just simply going all the way for the next 3 seasons And all the other teams are going to quit half way through their seasons?

posted by tommytrump at 11:12 PM on April 29

I hear you. How did San Diego suddenly fall out of the equation?

posted by forrestv at 12:01 AM on April 30

Don't be shocked if the Pats are winning their 4th Superbowl around Jan.10 or so. posted by sickleguy at 9:15 PM CDT on April 29 Not so fast! The Chicago Bears are looking excellent this year. and we finally got a good tight end

posted by BullsBears2334 at 01:55 AM on April 30

Nothing like listening to people make 19 - 0 Super Bowl predictions on draft weekend. People who don't even know when the Super Bowl is are already making predictions. To quote the Guinness boys: Brilliant!

posted by The_Black_Hand at 05:23 AM on April 30

The Lions will at least three games but no more than five. Not that that is a hard prediction to make.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 05:40 AM on April 30

Nothing like listening to people make 19 - 0 Super Bowl predictions on draft weekend. People who don't even know when the Super Bowl is are already making predictions. Not to mention that the "roster" as of draft day may look nothing like the roster on opening day of the regular season, which in turn may not look a whole lot like the roster when you get to the playoffs -- if you get there. Nobody wins on paper -- we'll see what happens in the fall.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 06:59 AM on April 30

What possible excuse for not producing can he come up with now? Really? Moss is a bit of a prima donna maybe, but he's a borderline hall of fame receiver, too. I can't agree more that he is, and has always been a major talent. My only problem with the guy is he's to wishy-washy and can't seem to step up his game when a team is struggling. Last year we had to hear him babbling about not really trying or putting forth much effort because the Raiders were poor. Well Randy, one of the reasons they were poor was because of their head-case veteran receiver. My opening comment when posting this only has to do with the fact he's now with one of the premier (if not THE premier) organizations in the sport, so he'd better revert back to his glory years and produce on the field. No more of this "I play when the mood strikes me" crap, because as I see it, he's far from a Hall of Famer at this point. With the right attitude, he can go a long way towards putting the Pats back on top.

posted by dyams at 09:43 AM on April 30

I think the pats got a bigger steal than Cleveland with this one. A 4th round pick for at league top 5 receiver. Who do you cover?? With these two stretching the field, The running game should be wide open too. Corey Dillion picked the wrong year to hang it up.

posted by Debo270 at 10:50 AM on April 30

If Moss and Stallworth can both stay healthy for an entire season, which is a HUGE if, then along with Welker they'll finally have some quality receivers to compliment Brady. Right now, though, it just sounds a bit too good to be true.

posted by dyams at 11:58 AM on April 30

Here's an excellent analysis from foxsports Moss Analysis I say it's excellent analysis because I had just made these exact same arguments to a friend about the trade before I read the column :-) - He's 30. He's not the same Moss of 5 years ago and it seems everyone is acting like he is - his speed no longer allows him to dominate matchups - he is not a physical reciever or route runner to make up for the above 2 points - he NEEDS the ball and he will not get it often in the Pats offense - while he certainly will HELP the team, today's Moss is not better than Deion Branch so the thoughts that they'll now be 17-0 and unstoppable is ridiculous (though they could conceivably have the same type of offense they won the SB with when Branch was there). As I mention above, from a talent perspective, Moss is an upgrade on what they had last year, but not quite as good as what they had when Branch was there.

posted by bdaddy at 02:15 PM on April 30

his speed no longer allows him to dominate matchups They're claiming he just ran a 4.29 40 in workouts. Did the NFL get a whole new set of cornerbacks or is 4.29 still fast? Moss is an upgrade on what they had last year, but not quite as good as what they had when Branch was there. This seems to ignore the larger picture. You're saying Branch, David Givens and Troy Brown were better than Randy Moss, Donte Stallworth and Wes Welker? With Kelly Washington and Troy Brown or Jabar Gaffney or whomever else on the bench? They're like 6 deep at WR with a couple decent receivng tight ends (assuming David Thomas' foot heals up) and good pass-catching backs. I don't remember a Pats pass attack with that much potential since the days of Stanley Morgan. I know it's just potential and this is April, but none of us knows whether the Randy Moss of the last couple years is the Real Randy or not. The problem I have with the link you provide is while it pays lip service to Tom Brady being a better QB than the Raiders sack rackers, it doesn't seem to adjust Randy's performance for the fact his 3.3 catches per game were from Andrew Someone-or-other throwing off his left cheek.

posted by yerfatma at 02:56 PM on April 30

yerfatma, take into consideration that the Raiders tried to get the ball to Moss. At times they forced the ball to him in triple coverage. Most times he ran his routes like it was a practice walkthrough. As far as the loaded passing game, unless NE converts to the Run N Shoot, I don't see it being any more productive than last season (statwise, anyway.) Still, if any coach can get the most out of what he's got, it's Belichick.

posted by forrestv at 03:50 PM on April 30

I don't know if the stats matter so much as offensive production overall. In discussing Moss, Rodney Harrison was excited because he feels Moss still requires teams to roll a safety over to double Randy, meaning it makes it harder to stop the run. The one question I have is that small receivers who run precise routes (Randy is neither, Stallworth is tall; I don't know about his route running) have historically been successful in the Pats' system (Brown, Patten, Branch), while taller receivers have not. No idea if the height matters or is just a coincidence.

posted by yerfatma at 04:13 PM on April 30

yerfatma, take into consideration that the Raiders tried to get the ball to Moss. At times they forced the ball to him in triple coverage. Most times he ran his routes like it was a practice walkthrough. Ya know, as much as I'm not a fan of Sr. Moss, I find it hard to hold it against him that he didn't work too hard for the Raiders the past couple years. Those teams were going to suck very badly with Superman playing WR. I know you're paid a lot of money to work hard every down, yadda, yadda, but c'mon.

posted by tieguy at 04:36 PM on April 30

You're yanking my crank, right tieguy? Last summer Moss spent more time promoting his smoothie chain than getting ready for the season. Maybe he didn't like the west coast, maybe he didn't like Art Shell, but I find it hard to like a guy who dogs it as much as Moss did. At least T.O. hustles.

posted by forrestv at 04:53 PM on April 30

Just glad he didnt end up in Philly.

posted by GoBirds at 05:05 PM on April 30

I'm with yerfatma, on this one. I think Randy will be great this year. I could be wrong, but i think he'll have 1,000+ receiving yards this year. I think that people are underestimating Brady's superior accuracy to that of the Raiders qb's (who were they again?), while claiming that @ 30 moss is over the hill. There have been several receivers, who were able to remain dominant even after their best years were past them. I see no reason why within the disciplined Patriots system why Moss can't end up the same way. My guess is that this move extends his career a few years. As far as the route running, i think that Moss will run good routes now (it's not like he never could), b/c that is what Brady/Belicheck will demand of him for to get the ball. As far as his selfishness goes, i think that he is pulling the Karl, i just want a championship, Malone move. I think that he is losing over 7 million dollars in contract restructuring. That sounds like he is ready to get to work. Of course, we have to wait to see it all play out. I could be wrong, but my guess is having a motivated and in shape 30 year old Moss will be better than a 25 year old, disgruntled primadonna.

posted by brainofdtrain at 05:35 PM on April 30

I was wondering if anyone can help me answer this question. Is there any 6'5" corner with a 40+ inch vertical that runs a sub 4.3 40? If not, I find myself believing that Tom Brady is going to have a descent year throwing lob balls down field to a CB covered Moss. Of course if Moss somehow beats the corner, it will be near impossible for him to jump oer a 5'10" FS to grab a well thrown ball by the first descent QB Moss has been paired with since Culpepper's last healthy sesaon. I mean when you look at it like that, Moss has no chance of putting together a good season.

posted by the legend at 06:08 PM on April 30

Especially when you consider Moss will have to contend with passes from the "most over-rated quarterback of all time", right?

posted by yerfatma at 06:18 PM on April 30

yerfatma, sometimes man, you're beautiful.

posted by tommytrump at 06:25 PM on April 30

Zing!

posted by lil_brown_bat at 06:41 PM on April 30

yfm ftw. And no, I'm not yanking your crank. The Raiders really, really sucked. Extrapolating from 'he dogged it for them' to 'he is going to dog it for the Pats' is a real stretch- even the most dedicated professionals in every field dog it from time to time when they are in spectacularly shitty situations, and he was in one. I'm not claiming he is a dedicated professional, but it is hard to judge that from the past two years. We'll know better in a year- if he can't be a professional for the Patriots, you're right, he'll never be a pro anywhere.

posted by tieguy at 07:04 PM on April 30

They're claiming he just ran a 4.29 40 in workouts. Did the NFL get a whole new set of cornerbacks or is 4.29 still fast? He ran a 4.25 when he was in college...so he's only slowed down 4 hundredths of a second in the past 10 years? No way. They can claim whatever they want, that doesn't match game tape we have last year(or practical aging logic). He had a big catch I think against Dallas and got WALKED from behind by one of Dallas CB's who did NOT have the angle on him. 4.29 recievers don't have that happening, and Moss certainly didn't 5-8 years ago. Just watching his games, he just was not open like he was his first few years in the league (nevermind who was throwing to him). He is NOT the same reciever he was and if you think he is, you're fooling yourself. Like I said, he's still GOOD, but no longer great. you're saying Branch, David Givens and Troy Brown were better than Randy Moss, Donte Stallworth and Wes Welker? I wasn't saying that.... I was saying Moss is not better than Branch. But now that you bring it up, I think talent wise Branch/Givens/Brown is equivalent to Moss/Stallworth/Welker. (By the way Welker's only started like 6 games in 3 years and has one TD recieving, and Stallworth can't play 3 straight games without popping a hammy)

posted by bdaddy at 09:48 PM on April 30

I was wondering if anyone can help me answer this question. Is there any 6'5" corner with a 40+ inch vertical that runs a sub 4.3 40? If not, I find myself believing that Tom Brady is going to have a descent year throwing lob balls down field to a CB covered Moss. Gee...why didn't Oakland think of that? Oh wait, they did. And it didn't work. It also might be because, aside from height, the numbers you quoted were for a 20 year old Moss, not a 30 year old one.

posted by bdaddy at 09:52 PM on April 30

They can claim whatever they want, that doesn't match game tape we have last year(or practical aging logic). Well that goes a long way towards invalidating the Patriot organization's stopwatches. Calling them liars would be about the only way. Actually, they timed him twice, the 1st time he ran a 4.29, and to make sure they weren't crazy, they ran him again. Result: 4.32. While it may be outside the norm for his age, it certainly isn't out of the realm of possibility. Gee...why didn't Oakland think of that? Oh wait, they did. And it didn't work. It also might be because, aside from height, the numbers you quoted were for a 20 year old Moss, not a 30 year old one. The lob ball part, yes, the Tom Brady part, NO. C'mon bdaddy, you're putting way too much emphasis on Moss' age. There have been numerous pro-bowl wide-outs who were around Moss' age. This probably won't be his best year, but there isn't any compelling reason to assume that he can't have a tremendous year. Why is Moss' age count against him more than have the worst qb's in the league last year? Let's at least try to find a middle ground here.

posted by brainofdtrain at 01:28 AM on May 01

From last season . . . Tom Brady QB Rating: 87.9 A. Walter QB Rating: 55.8 While this doesn't make Randy run perfect routes, it's pretty naive to think that this won't have a significant impact i think.

posted by brainofdtrain at 01:34 AM on May 01

Brain, QB ratings are a whole 'nother can of worms. I'm one of those Raiders fans who had no love for Walter, but he had a horrible line and no running game. So throw ratings out...

posted by forrestv at 02:37 AM on May 01

But now that you bring it up, I think talent wise Branch/Givens/Brown is equivalent to Moss/Stallworth/Welker. I don't see it at all, based on strictly a talent basis. If Moss and Stallworth remain healthy the entire season, I don't see a better receiver combination, with Welker included, in all of football (the exception being Indy). I always saw Branch as being too hit-and-miss, having a good game, but then almost disappearing at times. He made a name for himself in the Super Bowls (which isn't too bad a thing), but I don't think that's necessarily indicative of his play overall. Moss is still one of the players who can flat-out dominate games. I fully expect his attitude to be squared around this season. Troy Brown, as much as I respect him as a player, is someone who has to be brought into the conversation when you talk about old. And Givens, I don't even see him as a factor in the least. Welker produced really well on a relatively-poor Miami team. Put these three guys on the field, the way the Pats like to distribute the ball around, it has the potential to be really specialas. I'll keep coming back to it, though; I don't see all three remaining healthy enough to be on the field together much of the year. Randy Moss for a fourth-round pick? The Pats can't really lose on that one.

posted by dyams at 09:08 AM on May 01

Well that goes a long way towards invalidating the Patriot organization's stopwatches You don't think it stands to reason an organization is going to "fluff" that sort of thing about a guy they just picked up? Especially to the local media? Like they do with heights/weights regularly? C'mon bdaddy, you're putting way too much emphasis on Moss' age. There have been numerous pro-bowl wide-outs who were around Moss' age. This probably won't be his best year, but there isn't any compelling reason to assume that he can't have a tremendous year. Not age, particularly. Age and style of play, more accurately. As the article mentioned...guys like TO (A strong physical reciever) and Rice and Harrison (polished route runners) tend to "age well" in the NFL. Once their speed dimishes with age (which is just a natural course of life), the other attributes still make them formidable. Guys who get by strictly on athletic ability (Moss) tend to see their play drop off drastically once those skills diminish. That is exactly what we've seen with Moss if you watched his games last year (good QB or no QB you can still watch a reciever and see what he's doing against his competition, nevermind Brooks is the perfect QB for the "deep lob" mentality that you guys say Moss is still dominant). Again, I think he's still good, I just don't think his addition makes them unstoppable. It makes them better for sure, but again...not any better than they were when they had Branch (which they won some SB's with...so that's not saying it's a bad pickup). If Moss and Stallworth remain healthy the entire season Stallworth can't...plain and simple. In 5 seasons he's averaged 8 starts/year. Moss is still one of the players who can flat-out dominate games. Nothing the past 3 years has indicated that at all. Randy Moss for a fourth-round pick? The Pats can't really lose on that one. despite my arguments, I agree absolutely with this...especially once he restructured his contract. It's really no-lose for them, and like I said, he IS going to bring value to that team (Just not year 2000 value)

posted by bdaddy at 09:46 AM on May 01

Yea, isn't it amazing that a 30 year old like Randy Moss can still run the 40 in 4.32? I have to give the edge to the Pats on this one because they basically stole a borderline Hall of Fame wideout for a 4th round pick. If everything pans out and Moss' attitude doesn't surface, he has every chance in the world to show & prove that he is still the same player he was while playing for the Vikes and improve on his chances of becoming exactly what most everyone thought was a given: Randy Moss, Hall of Famer and Super Bowl champion.....and it pains me to say that but I have to be realistic.

posted by BornIcon at 10:06 AM on May 01

he IS going to bring value to that team (Just not year 2000 value) I think we're on the same page here, just from different perspectives. Much as I'd like 2,000 yards and 20 TDs, I am willing to accept 1,900 and 19. Or something like that.

posted by yerfatma at 11:14 AM on May 01

Moss is still one of the players who can flat-out dominate games. Nothing the past 3 years has indicated that at all. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that playing with the horrible Raiders pretty much made dominating a game in any form practically impossible. The only thing I don't find myself condoning is his "I don't give a crap" attitude, or the "I play when I feel like it" stuff. This is his golden chance, and if he can't dominate in this situation, then I'll be the first to admit his time has past.

posted by dyams at 11:31 AM on May 01

Evaluating what Randy Moss is capable of in the Patriots offense by what he did in the Raiders offense is impossible. The QBs in Oakland had no time to throw the ball downfield. It was so ridiculous watching them play at times because the QB didn't even have time to get set let alone look down the field. Further, I think Randy Moss gave up because it was apparent that no one else was really trying to win. I predict Randy will do well in NE. They have reformed other troublesome pains in the ass in the past (see Corey Dillon). As for Randy's speed, why not? Darrell Green was old and fast (and small).

posted by bperk at 11:32 AM on May 01

You're not logged in. Please log in or register.