Say! What a depressing thread. Jesus.
I just don't want somebody else telling me what I should think, how I should react, what's sin, what's not sin, or what I think is sin is not "politically correct". Then you must live on the moon. If someone finds your comments offensive, they're going to call you on it. Welcome to civilized discourse. I believe in live and let live and I don't want to know the details of anybody's else private life. That would make it awful hard to truly get to know anyone wouldn't it? That makes for a pretty solitary existence. Here on SpoFi we discuss a lot more than "just sports". We get into everything from technique, equipment, analysis (statistical and otherwise), occasional prognostication, and every so often personal interest stories or news stories about sports/atheletes with societal context. This story obviously falls in the latter. If you can't just agree to disagree, feel free to comment in any of the other threads available. Because if you can't engage in discussion in these types of threads without feeling persecuted, you might be a little too sensitive about the issue. Good luck, and welcome to Sportsfilter.
No company would ever sign a crappy player to endorse their product. Anna Kournikova wasn't crappy, but she wasn't really a top-10 player for most of her career. I think a good looking bench player who came out would do well. You know, a Kurt Rambis type. LBB, I am totally with you regarding the use of expressions like "No offense" as some sort of free pass, but I think you can cut BornIcon some slack here. He wasn't denigrating gay people or gay lifestyles, he was just riffing off the word "gay" with obviously humorous intent (whether he succeeded is a matter of taste). I don't see any implicit or explicit harm in it, though. If you count the number of people who are being above board and compare it to those who have actually posted something offensive, I don't see how you can conclude that this thread is demonstrating "socially acceptable bigotry."
Anna Kournikova wasn't crappy, but she wasn't really a top-10 player for most of her career. I wouldn't say that Kournikova is marketable because of her athletic prowess.
Then you must live on the moon. If someone finds your comments offensive, they're going to call you on it. Welcome to civilized discourse. And you can always find someone who will find what you say offensive. No matter whether 99% of the people in that particular demographic find offenisive also. We live in a society controlled by the minority. No I don't mean minorities in the normal sense such as racial, sexual or religious. I mean minority in the small number who yell the loudest.
I wouldn't say that Kournikova is marketable because of her athletic prowess. Right. That's my point. You said nobody would ever sign a crappy player. I'm saying if the crappy player had other marketable attributes, the fact that the player was crappy might be overlooked.
Sousepaw: You're not seeing all of the comments.
For those who haven't been paying attention, "No offense" is modernspeak for, "I claim immunity for being called on the statement that I just made and that I suspected at the time might be offensive to some." Is this just your opinion or did you become the all encompassing authority on modernspeak? In my opinion, no malice was intended by the comment and I was not offended. I guess I'm one less person you can speak for on this forum.
No company would ever sign a crappy player to endorse their product. They would if the public was interested in the player. Bob Uecker was a terrible player but a frequent pitchman because of his self-deprecating shtick, especially on those "Tastes Great/Less Filling" ads. Athletic talent and marketability don't always match. Pete Sampras was the best male tennis player for years, but he was dull as dirt.
Is this just your opinion or did you become the all encompassing authority on modernspeak? It was a rhetorical hammer to bang somebody over the head for a lame gay joke before it inspired other people to chime in with their own. LBB tries to do her part to make this site less hospitable to lame-ass homophobic and sexist cracks than other sports communities. She might not speak for you, but on this issue she's definitely speaking for me.
Sousepaw: You're not seeing all of the comments. Ah. Understood. Sorry. Sorry, lbb. I should have suspected as much. The administrative efficiency is my defense.
If all of them came out then what? Would all the female cheerleaders be replaced with male dancers? God, I hope not.
Crafty Sousepaw, I don't find you crafty nor sousy. No offense.
"Can you imagine Richard Simmons doing the commercial for UnderArmor? I know thats an extreme case, but when the general public hears the word "Gay" that is what they think of." Is Richard Simmons gay? When did he come out? He acts the part, but I have been around lots of guys that would never touch a man in the remotest sexual way but who get mistaken as gay. If Simmons says that he is gay, then he is gay. If he does not, then any thing that is said about him being gay is just an assumption.
No company would ever sign a crappy player to endorse their product. They might actually be somewhat false in this instance. Of course people's definitions of "crappy" may differentiate, but surely the lack of gay athletes willing to come forward is a much smaller pool than the ocean of non-gay advertising icons. This story is very similar to that of Michael Strahan, except this guy is the first to come out in his respected sport. Honestly, I think a second-tier athlete (who is eye-catching) would make a substantial profit doing ads. This would be a big risk for the company sponsoring the ads, but ultimately I think its a risk worth taking for both sides.
when the general public hears the word "Gay" that is what they think of. Maybe in the abstract, but they might not if they already identify with the person and recognize that he doesn't have an effeminate persona. Pick your favorite male athlete. If he came out today, would you suddenly attribute feminine qualities to him that he didn't have before you knew his sexuality? If Tiger had come out, do you really think Buick would have walked away? I can say for my part that if John Amaechi signed on with Buick, I wouldn't stay away from Buick because it's suddenly a more effeminate car. I would continue to stay away from Buick because they have been stigmatized in my head ever since the "OldsmoBuick" line in Fletch. Crafty Sousepaw, I don't find you crafty nor sousy. No offense. Yeah? Well, you're not from Jersey. And my sousiness is as indisputable as your girlness. No offense.
In the local Dallas newspaper Cuban states that a lot of the problem stems from 1991 and the Magic HIV concern with bleeding.He makes a valid point that players bleed all over themselves in the NFL and at least one NFL player has come out, but yet nobody has been infected. Cuban feels that fear of HIV has been a convienient excuse to legitamize keeping gay players out of the NBA.
It was a rhetorical hammer to bang somebody over the head for a lame gay joke before it inspired other people to chime in with their own. Was it a rhetorical hammer or was that your interpretation of what it was? I interpreted the comment as harmless humor. I interpreted his "no offense" qualifier at the end to indicate as much. I don't think a rhetorical hammer was needed here, in my opinion. Just to show some support for my assertion here, I shared BornIcon's joke with some gay friends of mine. None were offended and they all laughed. I await your rhetorical hammer.
danjel, so you said to your gay friends, "Just imagine the type of ads that soem would come up with. Anyone has any ideas? Gay-torade? Ben Gay?" and they all bust out laughing. Was that how it went? I'm not saying it didn't, I'm just curious. I mean, at best it's like having a name like Mary and always hearing people say, "Oh, Mary had a little lamb, huh huh huh." It's dumb and obvious and you've heard it before, so I'm surprised that anyone, gay or straight, would find this a knee-slapper.
lil_brown_bat, mmmmm...??? Sounds like someone is bragging about their junk.
Stupidest. Comment. Ever. She's a girl, you moron.
Wow. Just... yeah, wow.
llb, I know what you mean, I always got the "Cathy's clown" rag. Damn I hate the Everly Bros.
danjel, so you said to your gay friends, "Just imagine the type of ads that soem would come up with. Anyone has any ideas? Gay-torade? Ben Gay?" and they all bust out laughing. Was that how it went? I'm not saying it didn't, I'm just curious. I mean, at best it's like having a name like Mary and always hearing people say, "Oh, Mary had a little lamb, huh huh huh." It's dumb and obvious and you've heard it before, so I'm surprised that anyone, gay or straight, would find this a knee-slapper. lbb, that is kind of how it went down. My friends are very secure about who they are. They have always been that way. They aren't afraid to poke fun at themselves. But just because they aren't offended, I am not saying noboby should be offended. I think it is more important to look at the intent of the message. And once again, I don't think there was any malice intended by Born Icon. If you were offended by his remarks, I can accept that and do not begrudge your opinion. I just don't think you should have stated your opinion as being the opinion of everyone here.
Wow. Just... yeah, wow. Honestly? I laughed.
danjel: And once again, I don't think there was any malice intended by Born Icon. I don't think it was malicious either (unlike some of the comments), just...maladroit, perhaps. If you were offended by his remarks, I can accept that and do not begrudge your opinion. I just don't think you should have stated your opinion as being the opinion of everyone here. I don't recall doing that. Got a cite?
Maybe y'all's gay friends fell about the place laughing when they heard the "Gay ball player endorses Gay-torade" line. That doesn't necessarily mean it's appropriate in this discussion. There are plenty of jokes I would make when I'm hanging out with my friends that I'm not going to bring on Sportsfilter. Your friends know you are a good person and give you the benefit of the doubt. The anonymity of the Internet necessarily removes that trust factor. Certain humor just does not translate, and the ability to deliver a nuanced joke vanishes. If you think a joke might not go over the way you intend it to, it's probably best to forget about it. I'd like to make an impassioned appeal to the community: please stop complaining about "PC" or "political correctness". This is a tired trope. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say "I believe in political correctness" -- the term exists only as an insult, and it's very often wielded by bigots. It does not advance the discusssion, ever. Let's strive for constructive discussions on contentious topics, and save our flame wars for more pressing issues, like the merits of the designated hitter rule.
In an interview, Amaechi said that he's heard from numerous well-wishers but only one affiliated with the NBA, Celtics Coach Doc Rivers. The part at the end is great:
... Amaechi said he hoped to inspire high-level personalities to come out as straight allies. "I don't think it's realistic to expect that," he said. "But I think if we work with them they will." He's been so busy he didn't realize at least one already had. "When you do something that the whole world thinks is difficult and you stand up and just be who you are and take on that difficulty factor, you're an American hero no matter what," Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban told the Fort Worth Star-Telegram. "That's what the American spirit's all about, going against the grain and standing up for who you are, even if it's not a popular position." Amaechi allowed a smile to wash over his face. "He just became my friend," Amaechi said.
Why is this being dragged thru the mud? I mean, com'on, I agree that it was a "lame-joke" but so what? It was a joke people! Why do some of you get so bent out of shape over nothing, zip, zero, nada? Especially you LBB. You make it seem as if your the conscience of SpoFi (no offense) and that your opinions are the end all, be all. Some can laugh at themselves with no problem and I'm one of those people. I live to laugh and love to laugh and if your not homosexual, then why do you have a problem with my "lame joke"? I'm not attacking you, let me just get that out of the way, but I'm just wondering why is it that once someone doesn't agree with your opinions, you go on with your diatribe about what should and shouldn't be said. We are all (adult) individuals here and not everyone will agree with me or you but that's what makes us individuals. We have to learn to respect each other here whether we like it or not, I respect you opinions (I truly do), but I meant no harm and didn't mean for this to get so overblown. I apologize to anyone that was offended. Understand, this is in no way a personal attack upon anyone. Just an inquiry.
I agree that it was a "lame-joke" but so what? A. If it's lame, then it hardly qualifies as a joke. B. STFU about respecting each other if you feel so little regard for strangers in a chatroom you don't bother to consider you might offend some of them. C. Stop acting persecuted, it sounds ridiculous.
BornIcon, I'll break it down again for you, as others before me have tried. In the very basic, most simple of terms, Sportsfilter as a community does not tolerate racist, homophobic, sexist bullshit. We don't tolerate it in any form - not even in "jokes" made in poor form, or jokes endorsed by your "gay friends" You said something stupid and it offended people. In short, you fucked up. It really doesn't have to be this huge deal if you just recognize that you chafed people and went against our guidelines. Just say you're sorry, drop the persecution line, and move on. Truly, honest to God, move on. LBB isn't the conscience of the community, but in this particular instance, she speaks for us.
BornIcon: Enough already. I'm one of the founders of the site and I've gotten run through the grinder for a remark that some people found offensive. It's part of the give and take here. This kind of conversation belongs in the Locker Room or should be saved for our memoirs.
rcade, please don't take this the wrong way, since I respect the fact that you're one of the founders, but am I the only one here that finds it ironic that you're telling me "enough already" when I'm not even the one that has continued the thread? I've apologized for my earlier comments but am only responding to what people are saying. Isn't that what we're here for? At least I thought so. We can only educate the few that want to be educated but tell me, where was I offensive? It was a dumb joke that some either laughed at or didn't laugh at all but in no way was I acting out of order. The gay friends that I do have thought it was rather humorous and actually, totally harmless since they are comfortable with who they are. But for you and only you, I apologize once more because I do love this website that you and your friends have created. Thank you for allowing us all to be able to find a place to speak freely and say what's on our minds.
The gay friends that I do have thought it was rather humorous and actually, totally harmless since they are comfortable with who they are. I think you might be stereotyping your gay friends as people who have taste.
yerfatma, why do you feel the need to continue? I mean, wasn't what rcade said clear enough for you? I mean, how am I sterotyping my friends when all they have is a sense of humor and they have no problem laughing at themselves as much as I do about myself.
but am I the only one here that finds it ironic that you're telling me "enough already" when I'm not even the one that has continued the thread? I've apologized for my earlier comments but am only responding to what people are saying. Isn't that what we're here for? Sometimes when you're the person making the comment that multiple people have a problem with, it's better (and easier) to state your opinion and back out. You've explained yourself, and apologized. It's not a sign of weakness to let it go. It's just time to move on to another subject. People will move on. You don't have to respond to every comment.
Sounds like someone is bragging about their junk. Was I talking in my sleep again?
Good to see my "enough already" works as well here as it does on my kids. Don't make me turn this car around!
/makes rude face
Dad! He's touching me!
Are we there yet?
I know Cuban's problem: suppressed masterbation
As opposed to suppressed comment posting, one supposes.
Or maybe suppressed masturbation?
I know Cuban's problem: suppressed masterbation I'm not trying to start anything here, but, almost 13 months into your Spofi membership, and that's your first comment? Wow!
I know Cuban's problem: suppressed masterbation Yeah, because billionaires have the worst time trying to get laid.
TBH, don't forget The Golden Rule: "For every billion dollars I have, my dick gets 10 inches longer."
LBB tries to do her part to make this site less hospitable to lame-ass homophobic and sexist cracks than other sports communities. She might not speak for you, but on this issue she's definitely speaking for me. So what you just said was that this site is accepting to everyone who thinks and acts like you, but if they have convictions or ideas that are different from yours they should go screw themselves. Am I right rcade? That's pretty sad really, especially since you are one of the creators of this blog, one would think you would be down for any discussion, right or wrong. Maybe you can specify what opinions you want heard on this blog since not everyone of these is acceptable in your eyes. When I saw this thread I knew from the beginning there was going to be some gay jokes and people being offended by them, its only human to make fun of that which: A. you dont know much about or understand B. people and ideas which are different from yours Most humor stems from that, its how we as humans deal with certain issues. Get over it, if you are offended by this thread then why the hell did you read it and start commenting on it? You knew from the beginning you would, just like how I knew people would get their panties in a bunch. But heres what I find really interesting, those with gay friends are are gay dont seem very worked up about the Gay-torade jokes and whatnot, so why are str8 people so hyped about the jokes...I think its because some people act like they arent bigots, and really believe they arent until they read something from someone who believes differently from them, and then the truth comes out, at least to us reading it...and I'm not trying to pick on rcade specifically here either, sorry dude
