Thanks for the info, spira. Seems obvious when you look at it that way, huh?
Teams win and lose games - pitchers and players don't. Blyleven's "won-loss" record is no more relevant than Tony Gwynn's, Ralph Kiner's or Robin Yount's. (And If pitchers w-l records weren't just a misleading scoring artifice, then the answer to your question would be yes, that would be Hall of Fame. It's a heck of a lot better than Nolan Ryan's 12.9 wins and 11.6 losses per year. But the real answer is that no one has a Hall of Fame w-l record, because those records don't say much more about the quality of a pitcher than his hat size) I'm not arguing, by the way, that Blyleven was better than Carlton, just that they're pretty equivalent. Carlton is overrated because he was far more inconsistent than Blyleven, having more truly great years but also more mediocre years than Blyleven. On the hand, Blyleven was a much better pitcher than Catfish Hunter. Hunter's like Jack Morris - he pitched a lot of innings for great teams, but he was nothing but a slightly above average pitcher for his career. Blyleven had 11 years that qualify as "very good," while Hunter had 3. Rick Reuschel would be a much more deserving Hall of Famer than Catfish Hunter. No one belongs in the Hall just because they pitched for great teams. The bottom line is how many wins pitchers/players added to their teams total, not how many wins their team had. Blyleven's efforts resulted in 34 more wins for his teams over his career than an average pitcher would've gotten him; Hunter's efforts resulted in about 9 more wins for his teams over his career than an average pitcher would've gotten them (The best pitcher ever, Walter Johnson, accounted for 70. Only 11 pitchers added more than 40. Blyleven is 18th). Those wins actually go into the standings, unlike the "w-l record," a measurement that primarily records the quality of a pitcher's teammates' play, a measurement so arbitrary that it can assign wins to pitchers who come into a game and allow six runs without getting anyone out at the plate if they happen to enter the game in the right situation. Pitchers should be recognized by what they contribute to the team, not by what the team contributes to their statistical line.
Seriously, INOALOSER. Did Blyleven shoot your dog or something? You watched him give up a homer once and so you've decided that he doesn't deserve-- waitwaitwaitwaitwait. Spira: Rick Rueschel? Did I read that right? I'd laugh that off, except everything else you said makes a world of sense.
One statistic was invented long before adjusted ERA, wins and losses. Next season when your favorite team goes 70 and 92, check their adjusted ERA and get back to me. Did you notice you said "when your favorite team", not "when your favorite pitcher" in the discussion of wins and losses? That's pretty much explains why most of the other people in this discussion understand why wins/losses are not a good indication of pitching prowess.
chicobangs - I wouldn't put Reuschel in the Hall; I'd just pick him ahead of Hunter if I had to pick one of the two or be killed. I will say that Reuschel had a career very similar to Jim Bunning's, and Bunning is another guy in the Hall I wouldn't have voted for (though I believe he's only in the Hall because he was elected to Congress). But, anyway, there a lot of pitchers who you can put in place of Reuschel i what I wrote; the real point is that Hunter wasn't close to great, despite his repuatation. He had the fortune of pitching for two powerhouse dynasties in pitchers' parks in a pitcher's' era, and as a result his stat line looks very good at first glance and he got the nation's attention by pitching in the postseason. But once you take into account the context he pitched in, the reality is that his career ERA was only about 4% better than average, and that is not anywhere close to Hall of Fame quality. The only pitcher in the Hall with fewer qualifications is probably Rube Marquard, (For anyone who doesn't know exactly what adjusted ERA is, it's actually fairly simple. Take ERA, adjust for the park effect (whether the park inhibits or boosts run scoring), compare to the league average ERA, and put it on a scale where the average ERA is 100 and higher is better)
I don't dislike Bert, just don't think he deserves to be in the Hall of Fame, and so far neither does the Hall of Fame.
Yeah, but why? You can't seriously think pitcher's w-l record means anything, so what reason do you have? Has any pitcher in the history of baseball accomplished what Blyleven has and not been elected? And I don't think the Hall of Fame thinks that Blyleven doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame. Not that it think he does, either. It's a building, an institution, and those don't think, period. BBWAA members - voters - individually decide on whether someone deserves in the Hall, and the collective vote determines whether a player is elected to the Hall. Over the years, the BBWAA voters have done a fair job, like most groups of voters do. (As opposed to the Veterans Committee, which has probably made more bad selections than good ones) By the way, Rich Lederer has done several articles demolishing all arguments against Blyleven being in the Hall; he does a season-by season analysis of Blyleven's peak here and an overview of Blyleven's career over here.
Hey, thanks for the grammar lesson. Bert's still not in the Hall of Fame.
Good god after reading spira's links I'm dumbfounded. Was Bert a complete ass? Did he take a leak on the side wall of the HOF ala Ozzy Osborn? If not, GOOD GOD people give the man his just due and put him in the Hall. Not his fault he played for crap nasty teams. Geez. (Shakes head isn disbelief)
Ino - Um, that wasn't a grammar lesson, and there was nothing wrong with your grammar. I haven't a clue as to what you are talking about. The point I was trying to get across is that Hall of Fame election is the result of an ordinary vote; it's not some magical, unique process, which some people seem to regard it as. You were talking as if the Hall was a God who came out of the sky and magically divides candidates between "Hall of Famers" and unworthies, and that's not the way it works.. I guess you're still not going to answer the question "why," though. Fade222 - Bert wasn't beloved, but given that he's now the Twins' regular announcer, it seems unlikely that there are any personality issues that are holding his election up. That's why it's so unfathomable; this shouldn't even be a close call, given the established standards of the Hall.
No, he's not in because of his record. Rightly or wrongly, he didn't make it because he didn't win enough, and in his era there were simply greater pitchers. He got squeezed. Still a lot of old tyme BBWAA voters out there who can't abide giving a guy with a 287-250 record a HoF plaque. I'd put him up there with Jim Rice as a couple guys who probably should be in the Hall, but won't because the line has to be drawn somewhere and unfortunately it goes right over these guys (yes there are players like Hunter and Bunning, who are in the Hall for more sentimental than statistical reasons, but since you can't veto people out of the Hall, you just have to move on). Hey, as a small bonus, it no longer appears that 300 wins is attainable for most pitchers, so the emphasis on wins is becoming less and less the case. Maybe the Veterans Committee will have something to say about the matter in a few decades time.
Weedy, are you saying the criteria that that Bert seems to be judged by is wins and loses?
Still a lot of old tyme BBWAA voters out there who can't abide giving a guy with a 287-250 record a HoF plaque. Then someone please explain to me why they had no problem voting in Robin Roberts. He's pretty much an exact copy of Blyleven, except 20 years earlier. ERA, wins, ERA+, winning percentage...it's almost a carbon copy. The number of wins is just a lame argument since there are more starting pitchers in the HOF with LESS wins than Blyleven (28) than there are starting pitchers in the HOF with MORE wins than Blyleven (20). So if it is "just wins" that's keeping him out, they are stupid AND wrong in this case.
Hey, I looked up Bert's stats. I forgot he played with the Pirates. You can let him in!
