04/23/24
November 02, 2004
Jeter wins a gold glove: Wow. I mean, we all knew he improved quite a bit this season, but could anyone have predicted this? Other winners: Pudge, Erstad, Boone, Chavez, Rogers, Suzuki, Hunter, and Wells. More inside.
posted by Bernreuther to baseball at 06:50 PM - 39 comments
when i saw the headline on yahoo i was very happy. well, i still am happy, but now i'm cringing at the shitstorm that is about to follow. (but this can't be worse than palmiero in '99 right?) i also think it's important to know that managers and coaches vote on gold gloves. don't know how many of them pay attention to range factors and all that stuff and we have no clue what, if any, criteria they use. do they judge by the actual games they played against these players? print media? bbtn web gems?
posted by goddam at 07:15 PM on November 02, 2004
It's also important to note that many managers and coaches apparently have shitty eyesight and can't read statistical charts. Jeter over Tejada for a Gold Glove is a freaking travesty.
posted by wfrazerjr at 08:15 PM on November 02, 2004
YA VERNON!
posted by DrJohnEvans at 08:35 PM on November 02, 2004
I tried to rationalize it at first with "Well ARod doesn't play SS anymore and Nomar's season wasn't noteworthy at the least... and..." But fuck that. Over Tejada? Come on. One nosedive into the stands does not a gold glove make.
posted by jerseygirl at 08:55 PM on November 02, 2004
What Jeter lacks in sheer defensive skill and statistics, he makes up for in instinct and overall impact on the game. No other shortstop sees the game the way Jeter does which is why he can make plays such as the famous flip to home plate to get Giambi.
posted by mayerkyl at 07:12 AM on November 03, 2004
What Jeter lacks in sheer defensive skill and statistics, he makes up for in instinct and overall impact on the game. Oh no. Here's what comes next: Requisite demolition of Jeter's "intangibles" by a semi-SABRmetrician.
posted by qbert72 at 07:51 AM on November 03, 2004
What Jeter lacks in sheer defensive skill and statistics, he makes up for in instinct and overall impact on the game. This suggets Steven Hawking could win a Gold Glove. How are you measuring impact? I usually use crater depth, but perhaps you meant something else.
posted by yerfatma at 07:59 AM on November 03, 2004
Oh no. Here's what comes next: Requisite demolition of Jeter's "intangibles" by a semi-SABRmetrician. Ayuh. Lather, rinse, repeat.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 08:04 AM on November 03, 2004
What Jeter lacks in sheer defensive skill and statistics, he makes up for in instinct and overall impact on the game. To me, Jeter's intangables are based arounf him preforming in the clutch. Mostly offensively. although at times, he will come through with his glove. Is Jeter really deserving of a Gold Glove?? I really dont think so!
posted by daddisamm at 08:32 AM on November 03, 2004
Ayuh. Lather, rinse, repeat. Well, let's not forget the most important past of the rinse cycle: ball-washings from Yankee fans blinded by partisanship / baseball fans who buy the hype. Also, the state of Maine called and said Yankee fans can't use "Ayuh," per orders of Generalissimo Steven King.
posted by yerfatma at 08:34 AM on November 03, 2004
ball-washings from Yankee fans blinded by partisanship As opposed to impartial Boston fans? Maybe since all these guys who have, you know, actually played professional baseball tend to think he's pretty good sould count for something? What motivation do opposing coaches and managers have to vote for Jeter if they don't think he really deserves it? Might UN black helicopters be involved?
posted by crank at 08:39 AM on November 03, 2004
This suggets Steven Hawking could win a Gold Glove Yes, that is precisely what was suggested. Thanks for the mind numbing analogy. Maybe you measure your cranial cavity with crater space.
posted by mayerkyl at 09:06 AM on November 03, 2004
Thanks for the mind numbing analogy. Maybe you measure your cranial cavity with crater space. Way to respond on point. As opposed to impartial Boston fans? Maybe since all these guys who have, you know, actually played professional baseball tend to think he's pretty good sould count for something? I'm not blind to the partisanship of Boston fans; anyone who thinks Nomah should have won a Gold Glove this year or in the recent past would be similarly lost to me. His range was gone. Jeter, however, never had any. My qualification ("blinded by partisanship") was to indicate I realize there are Yankee fans, both here and elsewhere who are capable of looking past the intangibles. The "players think Jeter is good" argument holds no water. First of all, is it a majority of players or is it a few retirees writing for ESPN? Secondly, look at the Veterans' Wing of the HoF; many of the lamest, barest HoF members are ones that were voted by other players. Why? Because they knew they guy. He was a coworker and a pretty nice person and thus overrated in their eyes. And I think someone playing for the Padres probably gets most of his knowledge of Jeter from the same place the fans do, the media.
posted by yerfatma at 09:15 AM on November 03, 2004
In the final analysis, the only thing that matters is that Jeter won. Moreover, he won by the same standards that all other gold glovers have won. Let those who want to whine about it go ahead, it wont change a thing.
posted by mayerkyl at 09:29 AM on November 03, 2004
/whines
posted by yerfatma at 09:48 AM on November 03, 2004
The "players think Jeter is good" argument holds no water. You know, at some point, some of you may actually have to admit that though your personal bias', SABR-scores and whatnot tell you that Jeter is a borderline minor-leaguer, his peers actually see him as a bonafide superior player and leader. Additionally, at some point, your going to have to accept their word as having some weight. Yerfatma - are you trying to say that fans are in the best position to measure the greatness of a player? Because your entire argument is based on players overrating other players - and that never happens with fans or writers, no sir. I mean, what kind of a position is that? Players can't accurately measure another players' game? Maybe in certain lights, but apply the same principle to any other profession and the outcome is ludicrous (ergo, another Doctor cannot accurately measure the performance of another Doctor because he's 'too close' to be correct. A better person would be the guy who watches from the observation lounge and reads a lot of books about Doctors.). You can't possibly believe this to be true.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 09:51 AM on November 03, 2004
see him as a bonafide superior player and leader He's the last person I would ever want to see come to bat against my team. Double that if the game matters. He's fine in the field too. I just don't think he's good in the field. are you trying to say that fans are in the best position to measure the greatness of a player Not at all. I'm trying to say playing the game well doesn't make you an expert on it. It's a weird thing, but the ability to physically perform doesn't have any clear correlation with the ability to rate players. How many ex-major leaguer GMs are there? There are plenty of ex-minor leaguers, but even their ranks are dwindling.
posted by yerfatma at 10:33 AM on November 03, 2004
A National Outrage I know I said yesterday that I wasn't going to get political here, but in light of what has happened, I think something simply needs to be said. The American people have been duped, bamboozled and misled, and I truly believe yesterday's events will lead to the downfall of the nation as we know it. Yes, that's right, Derek Jeter won the American League Gold Glove at shortstop. There are, as far as I can see, two positives that come along with this ridiculous situation. One is that you can cross "Gold Glove" off the list of things you give importance to, making statements like "he plays Gold Glove defense" utterly useless. Beyond that, this gives hope to people out there with dreams. Dream of being President of the United States? Want to marry a supermodel? You say you'd like to be in the movies? Personally, I'd like to be the GM of a baseball team. Normally I'd say you and I were probably out of luck, but the fact that Jeter can be given an award for being the dest defensive shortstop in the AL means pretty much anything is possible. Hell, I'm starting to think I have a real chance of winning the lottery, and I didn't even buy a ticket.
posted by dusted at 10:47 AM on November 03, 2004
The problem with the SABR stuff is that it totally disregards clutch performances as tripe. I hate Jeter very much, more than I hate cancer, but I do think that he is a clutch player... and that he banged Mariah Carey... before she went crazy... I'm not sure he is gold-glove good, but there are guys like that picked for it from time to time...then once a guy gets one he is the favorite.
posted by chris2sy at 10:52 AM on November 03, 2004
Not at all. I'm trying to say playing the game well doesn't make you an expert on it. Sure it does. Apply the same thinking to any other profession. Sports are not so vastly different that you wouldn't recognize Gretzky, Maddux, etc. as experts in their chosen field. It's like saying that film critics have the best expertise in making films because they don't make films. Or that Eric Clapton is not an expert on playing the guitar. I think in some respects you're not wrong, in the same idea that even though you're Roger Clemens doesn't necessarily mean you'd be a good pitching coach, or General Manager - because those positions require other affinities that aren't solely bouyed by Roger's ability to pitch. But I'm damn sure Roger Clemens can recognize a good pitcher.... Even those that aren't in the bathroom mirror every morning. I don't think you're wrong in saying that awards given out by players may have a political or popularity element to them, but certainly are not lacking the requisite expertise to base decisions on.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 11:06 AM on November 03, 2004
The problem with the SABR stuff is that it totally disregards clutch performances as tripe. I hate Jeter very much, more than I hate cancer, but I do think that he is a clutch player... I think I've posted the statistical and methodical debunking of "Jeter is clutch" article 3 or 4 times to Sportsfilter. I just can't be bothered to post it again. If everyone wants to believe that he's "clutch", I'm just going to give up and let them believe it. You can only pound your fists against a brick wall for so long. I'm trying to say playing the game well doesn't make you an expert on it. Sure it does. Then please explain the insane opinions of John Kruk, Harold Reynolds and Joe Morgan. Honestly, there have been enough documented cases of these gentlemen making stupid/biased/false statements about players/teams/stats that it boggles my mind that they can be considered "experts". Just because they you in front of a camera with a microphone, doesn't mean that you are an "expert".
posted by grum@work at 11:33 AM on November 03, 2004
You can only pound your fists against a brick wall for so long. Have you considered pitching for the Yankees?
posted by yerfatma at 11:54 AM on November 03, 2004
i don't get why people are up in arms over a gold glove award. is it because it's derek jeter, the guy everyone loves to hate? it's not like he's the first "undeserving" player to get it. raffie played 28 games at first base in 1999 and somehow walked away with one. the fact that jeter got one of these this year shouldn't be a surprise, especially with the press he was getting on his improved defense and the hype behind "the catch" in the 7/1 game.
posted by goddam at 11:59 AM on November 03, 2004
anyone who is banging Jessica Alba deserves some sort of an award.
posted by mayerkyl at 12:30 PM on November 03, 2004
it's not like he's the first "undeserving" player to get it. No, definitely not. Doesn't mean it's not silly, but you're quite right. It's just this, Raffie, et al keeps marginalizing what was an award with meaning. Or maybe I just thought it was when I was a kid and This Week in Baseball showed Ozzie Smith highlights for 28 minutes a week.
posted by yerfatma at 12:52 PM on November 03, 2004
Then please explain the insane opinions of John Kruk, Harold Reynolds and Joe Morgan. and Tim "A walk is as good as a homerun" McCarver.
posted by jerseygirl at 01:18 PM on November 03, 2004
Or maybe I just thought it was when I was a kid and This Week in Baseball showed Ozzie Smith highlights for 28 minutes a week Yeah, maybe I just thought that too. On the bright side Manny Ramirez, instead of a gold glove nod, which would have exposed the whole thing as fraudulent, was given the Roberto Duran "Hands of Stone" award. Think of the Omar Vizquels of the world, what will they have left to live for if you give the gold glove to a big bat with an ok glove? Can't you hear little David Eckstein crying into his baby-sized hands?
posted by chris2sy at 01:41 PM on November 03, 2004
I just want Jeter's life to get a little bit better than it is. He's had it pretty rough since breaking into the bigs and now he finally gets a bone thrown his way. Come on, give the guy a break.
posted by mayerkyl at 01:44 PM on November 03, 2004
Then please explain the insane opinions of John Kruk, Harold Reynolds and Joe Morgan. and Tim "A walk is as good as a homerun" McCarver. My answer would be twofold: 1) Hardly a random sampling of baseball brainpower. I say baseball players are experts at baseball and you pick the loudmouth retired media guys to refute it. 2) 'insane' is a complicated legal term. Not a medical condition. It also is misapplied often in cases where you simply don't agree with the alternate view. In Grum's case this would be a total lack of creedence given to any baseball idea that is grounded in a number to compare. Though in McCarver's case it's totally appropriate. Kruk and Morgan don't strike me as being total baseball idiots, though I often don't agree with them.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 04:33 PM on November 03, 2004
Sorry - should be "...lack of creedence given to any baseball idea that ISN'T grounded in a number to compare."
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 04:37 PM on November 03, 2004
Just a few clarifications. First, from the article on NL Gold Glovers:
Gold Gloves, presented since 1957 by St. Louis-based Rawlings, are voted on by managers and coaches before the end of the regular season. They may not select players on their own team, and they vote only for players in their own league.So a player's peers (i.e., other players) are not involved in the decision. Second, the difference between Rafael Palmeiro winning in 1999 is that he actually was a Gold Glove winner the prior two years -- so he acrtually was a good defensive player at one point, even if the voters screwed it up that year and voted him the winner based on past reputation.
posted by holden at 04:45 PM on November 03, 2004
and Tim "A walk is as good as a homerun" McCarver he meant 5 consecutive walks was as good as a homerun...
posted by chris2sy at 04:52 PM on November 03, 2004
oops, I mean 4...duh?
posted by chris2sy at 04:52 PM on November 03, 2004
come on Chris, fess up. Your last name is McCarver, right? ;)
posted by jerseygirl at 06:06 PM on November 03, 2004
oops, I mean 4...duh? 5, 4, he's still wrong.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 06:13 PM on November 03, 2004
oops, I mean 4...duh? Maybe you meant a 2 run homer.
posted by yerfatma at 06:28 PM on November 03, 2004
could be worse, Deion Sanders could have dumped a bucket of ice water on me...and my 4 or 5 walks...
posted by chris2sy at 06:55 PM on November 03, 2004
I think having a good bat will often win you a gold glove just by getting you attention. Look at all 18 gold glove winners this year. Those would be pretty damn impressive batting orders too.
posted by Bernreuther at 10:19 AM on November 04, 2004
I definitely agreed with the critics of Jeter's D in the past, and was shocked to see his improvement this year... Having ARod to his right helped him work harder, I'm sure, and took some pressure off him as well. I still don't think he's the best in the league though. Tejada is definitely better... the catch probably won this one for him. I haven't seen too much of Chavez, but in his games against the Yankees this year, I thought he looked pretty plain. Wasn't he hurt too? I was thinking that with some of the shows ARod put on at 3rd, he would be a very strong candidate to steal one from Chavez. He probably almost did. I do think he would have deserved it more than his teammate. I was surprised to see Kenny Rogers win. Never noticed him. Mussina usually wins these things, doesn't he? He had a couple of errors early in the year though that must really have cost him. Was first base really so weak that a first timer won? Or was Erstad really just amazing, even moreso than ARod in his first year at third?