March 6, 2007

Very nice link' especially because us fans who remember can vote for earlier stars as well as the guys from the 80s & 90s.

posted by sickleguy at 8:54 PM CDT on March 6

Shortstops (Select 1):
Aparicio, Luis
Belanger, Mark
Concepcion, Dave
Jeter, Derek
Smith, Ozzie
Vizquel, Omar

Joe Sheehan said it best at Baseball Prospectus:
"Ozzie Smith isn't just the greatest defensive shortstop ever--he’s the greatest defensive player in baseball history...It’s adorable that they listed five other guys on the ballot with him, especially Jeter, who’s got a LaToya Jackson-in-"We Are the World" thing going on here.

posted by grum@work at 11:10 PM CDT on March 6

My ballot:

Pitcher:Gibson, Bob
Catcher:Freehan, Bill
First Base:Power, Vic
Second Base:Mazeroski, Bill
Third Base:Robinson, Brooks
Shortstop:Belanger, Mark
Outfield:Blair, Paul
Outfield:Evans, Dwight
Outfield:Yastrzemski, Carl

I'm old enough to have seen every one of them play, at least on TV. Forgive the Boston bias in the OF, but Yaz could play the wall in Fenway better than anyone I've seen. Dewey Evans's arm and Paul Blair's ability to get to anything in center sold me on the rest. For the rest of the positions, I'll accept an argument on all but 3B. If Brooks Robinson isn't the best who ever played the hot corner, I don't know who is. Nice post, YYM

posted by Howard_T at 11:19 PM CDT on March 6

As opposed to all those companies that do things for free.

posted by yerfatma at 5:41 AM CDT on March 7

Actually, Freddie Patek was the starting SS for the AL in an All-Star game, maybe 1977 or 1978.
Having Jeter on the list is pathetic. My sister, who is now 39 and about 30 pounds overweight, still has better range than Jeter. Are you one of these fans who discount every SABR stat by saying that you have to see Jeter play to realize his greatness?

posted by whitedog65 at 7:59 AM CDT on March 7

Paul Blair was a great fielder. He covered ground like mad, and played such a short center field he took away singles, not just extra-base hits. Thanks for putting this link on, YYM. I'm such a huge advocate for the role of fielding in baseball (something that gets overlooked as people get more and more involved in the offense-only hobby of fantasy baseball). The role of a great fielder, especially in the outfield, can really mess with a hitter's mind. When you have guys who can flat-out go get it, clogging up the gaps with ease, it starts making opponents wonder just what they have to do to find a hole.

posted by dyams at 8:35 AM CDT on March 7

Mazeroski is better than Robbie Alomar? Really? Please to explain.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 8:55 AM CDT on March 7

Here goes: Gibson, P; Bench, C; Mattingly, 1B; Alomar, 2B; Smith, SS; Robinson, 3B; Blair, Mays and Clemente, OF.

I agree with Weedy; Alomar was absolutely stellar. Mattingly was also one of my all-time favorites, but his fielding was effortless and (seemingly) flawless. Bench was just all-around solid and the anchor of the Big Red Machine. The Orioles of Brooks, Belanger, Blair, etc., were fantastic teams. I've already given my impressions of Blair, and there's no way I'm not picking Willie Mays and Roberto Clemente, two of the best all-around talents the game will ever know.

posted by dyams at 9:26 AM CDT on March 7

Are you one of these fans who discount every SABR stat by saying that you have to see Jeter play to realize his greatness?

Are you saying you don't want to have to watch him to make a valid judgment?

Mazeroski is better than Robbie Alomar? Really? Please to explain.

No question that Alomar is in the discussion of best all-around second basemen, a discussion that would not include Maz. And Robbie almost certainly had the best range of any second baseman I've seen. But when you focus only on defense, and consider things like quick feet, glove-to-hand exchange, arm strength, etc. I think you have to go with Maz. Plus, Maz had an intangible characteristic (which, by being "intangible," nobody wants to hear about, but I'll state it anyway) -- he had tree trunk legs that struck fear into many guys with a notion of sliding into second. He could leap if he had to, but when he stayed planted he was immovable, and players went more timidly into second on Maz than on any other second baseman in history. He created a lot of double plays on that feature alone.

My personal bias is against 3 centerfielders...simply because it's unusable in day-to-day life.

If the ballot asked the voter to create the best defensive team, clearly you're basis of decision making would be different. I am interpreting the purpose of the ballot to be a selection of the best individual defensive performers at all positions, with the three outfield spots lumped together. Since the Gold Glove Award itself works under that premise, I think it's safe to do so here. Yaz was great in Fenway, but take him out of that park (which you did 81 times every year) and there is no way his defense measures up to inclusion onto a short list of the outfielders listed.

For the record, my list is Mays, Clemente and Ichiro. I have seen footage of plays Clemente made that I was certain I would never see duplicated in my lifetime. Ichiro is the only one who has come close.

posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 10:10 AM CDT on March 7

If you intend to show me park-neutral, era-adjusted defensive stats, I'd say we're completely through the looking glass, Alice.

I'm not basing it on some theoretical. I'm saying in 50% of the actual games he played, Yaz (who was, still, a great fielder in any park) just didn't measure up to some of the other-worldly, all-terrain fielders on the list. His record is enhanced by having superior adjustment in an enigmatic park, but there are a good number of players who quite obviously had/have better range, a better arm, and more of the "Ozzie" factor defensively than Yaz.

He is certainly not close to the worst on the list. I think it's unfortunate that Jim Edmonds is on there. Edmonds has made some of the most spectacular catches I could ever hope to see, and that play where he leapt with his back to home and grabbed the ball before falling onto the warning track is the best I have ever seen. But he is a master of turning the mundane into the sensational. He has a terrible first step and takes horrible routes to balls. His gymnastics are tremendous compensation for an otherwise poor defensive resume.

(Thanks, YYM, for posting this. I so needed some good baseball discussion today.)

posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 12:34 PM CDT on March 7

Crafty - you saw Mazeroksi play?

I can't accept the conclusion. He couldn't be better than Alomar. It's not humanly possible. There wasn't a single aspect of the defensive side of the game that Alomar did poorly. Alomar had no generational peers. The margin between him and the second best guy was wider than Ozzie to his peers (though Ozzie is clearly the best defensive player I ever saw).

Agreed on Edmonds - spectacular, but not because he was better than anyone else - just that he was/is spectacular. Devon White was ten times the outfielder he is and White isn't close to Mays, Ichiro, Yaz, Griffey, Jones, etc., etc.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 1:46 PM CDT on March 7

its just gonna end up another popularity contest, and someone whos been playing for maybe 10 years will win...maybe.

posted by Redoh77 at 2:22 PM CDT on March 7

Crafty - you saw Mazeroksi play?

Not live, but I've seen enough video footage of him that I feel I can make a reasonable assessment of the kind of player he was. My view is reinforced --and, on the point about his tree-trunk legs, totally founded -- by comments other ballplayers have made about him. I agree that Alomar did nothing less than great. I just pick Maz. I'm an intangibles guy, you know.

Devon White almost never made one of those diving plays. He was already there.

The same is often said of Joe DiMaggio. This discussion would be so much more complicated if the Gold Glove had been around longer.

posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 2:52 PM CDT on March 7

The same is often said of Joe DiMaggio.

That's what I was thinking of as I typed it. I never even disliked Devon White; it just seemed predestined any ball hit into the gap was going to find its way into his glove.

posted by yerfatma at 5:59 PM CDT on March 7

In my opinion there are a lot of great players at each spot. The ONE who stands out for defense among all positions is Brooks Robinson at third. All the others may be debatable. If there was a vote on the BEST defesive player ever, regardless of position, he would be the first one to come to my mind.

I agree Mark Grace should have gotten a nomination at first base, he would be my choice if on the ballot.

posted by urall cloolis at 10:07 PM CDT on March 7

That said, he's definitely a top 10 2nd baseman, but he's a fair distance away from being the best. That spot goes to (in my opinion) Joe Morgan (though some would suggset Eddie Collins, Rogers Hornsby or Jackie Robinson).

I'm guessing you are talking about overall rating, since you argued quite reasonably about Maz on pure defense. Tough to leave Ryno out of that conversation, who stands up reasonably well with Morgan offensively, and who brings some outrageous defense to the party. Certainly nothing wrong with picking Morgan, but I think I would lean toward Hornsby or Jackie. I would love to see what Jackie would do today, without all the other baggage he carried through his career.

I never even disliked Devon White; it just seemed predestined any ball hit into the gap was going to find its way into his glove.

I am really amazed he got so little consideration by the Hall of Fame voters. I don't think he belonged in, but he definitely deserved more votes than many of the guys ahead of him.

Yaz is an acceptable choice as a left fielder. As a generic outfielder, no.

Interesting article by Paul White, written a few years ago, on left fielders and the Gold Glove Award.

Jeter can play on my team anytime. Great player, but he doesn't belong on the list. Not even close.

Here's the list of multiple Gold Glove winners at short:

Ozzie Smith - 13
Omar Vizquel - 11
Luis Aparicio - 9
Mark Belanger - 8
Dave Concepcion - 5
Tony Fernandez - 4
Alan Trammell - 4
Derek Jeter - 3
Barry Larkin - 3
Roy McMillan - 3
Rey Ordonez - 3
Gene Alley - 2
Larry Bowa - 2
Don Kessinger - 2
Edgar Renteria - 2
Cal Ripken - 2
Alex Rodriguez - 2
Zoilo Versalles - 2
Maury Wills - 2

Looking at this list, I think you can see why Jeter's on there. He's won three in a row, and Renteria is the only other active shortstop on the list. I don't think anyone is going to argue that if A-Rod had stayed at short that spot on the ballot would be his, but I don't think you can say Jeter is "not close" to belonging there. That said, anyone who votes for him is either three years old or an idiot.

posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 12:51 AM CDT on March 8

As several realize, the Jeter thing is a moot point because Ozzie is a runaway. I will not hold against Ozzie the fact that his (clearly ghostwritten) children's book, Hello Fredbird, a Christmas gift for my one-year old son and one of his favorites, is pretty awful and the fact that he allows a petty feud with Tony LaRussa (who inexplicably thought that Royce Clayton was the second coming and therefore deserved playing time instead of giving Ozzie a farewell season) to keep him from being involved with the team. (The Cardinals living Hall of Famers -- Gibson, Schoendienst, Musial (although not so much because of his age), Brock, and others -- and a number of non-HoF ex-players are regulars at Busch, some of those individuals during the season, but almost all of them during the postseason. I am pretty sure Ozzie was at his sports bar (in St. Louis, mind you) during Game 5 of this past World Series.)

One thing about Jeter v Ripken in terms of shortstop prowess that I saw written elsewhere is that Jeter is currently playing in an AL where the only other multiple GG-winning SS is Jeter's teammate at 3B, whereas Ripken played in an AL where Fernandez and Trammell had 4 GG each. I think that argument is a little flawed in that Omar Vizquel had a stranglehold on the SS Gold Glove through the first 5+ years of Jeter's career (and it's further weakened by the fact that, after digging into it further, I see that Ripken won his 2 GG when Fernandez was in the NL and Trammell was on the downside of his career in playing in just over 100 games in one season and less than 30 in the other), but it does merit mention that Jeter's GGs have largely come at a time when the competition has not been great. Tallest midget and all that.

posted by holden at 6:37 AM CDT on March 8

but let's not go acting like he's any type of slouch when it comes to fielding

We can't? He's certainly a fine fielder now, but it was not always so. Shouldn't all the years count in the evaluation of All-Time Best Fielders? If not, how thin can we slice the time period? Because I might make the list for this crazy throw-the-glove-at-it play I made in a beer league softball game a few years back. Broke my damn pinkie too. Wasn't right for half a year.

posted by yerfatma at 10:56 AM CDT on March 8

You know what I meant, that my body is such I finely-tuned instrument of awesomeness that my arm had retrieved the glove before I even became aware of how terrific I was.

posted by yerfatma at 11:52 AM CDT on March 8

WOW!!! a post with lots of difference of opinion and NO FLAMES. This has to be the SpoFi 'post of the year' so far.

Crafty, you make a good point about Clemente. It was indeed an oversight on my part. In picking Yaz and Evans for the outfield, I was thinking a separation of the 3 positions. I believe this should be the case in the actual voting too, but would be difficult to do because many OFs play more than one spot. Evans's defensive credentials include more than just a great arm. He could get to a lot of balls, and (here we go again with the peculiar park) Fenway's RF is both big and difficult to play.

I guess all of us "Rounders" junkies just can't wait until April.

Again, on Mazeroski, He's one of the weakest (non-pitcher) hitters in the HOF.

Except for just one moment.

posted by Howard_T at 3:17 PM CDT on March 8

Looking at this list, I think you can see why Jeter's on there.

Well, to be honest, I guess I'm not paying attention to the details of the voting. Since it's a rawlings survey I guess gold gloves matter, and that's where the list starts and ends. In that light Jeter does belong on the list, though by number of gloves I guess he skipped someone.

Throwing the gold glove award out, I'll stick by Jeter not belonging. He's made improvements, but best of all time? I saw probably 60 yankee games last year and 120 red sox games. I'll take Alex Gonzalez's glove in a heart beat.

posted by justgary at 4:49 PM CDT on March 8

It's a ballot celebrating the anniversary of the Gold Glove Award. It's stated purpose is to name the "All-Time Rawlings Gold Glove Team." You can throw the Gold Glove Award out if you want, but now we're not talking about the same thing anymore.

Agreed. As I said, I glossed over that fact until reading it a second time.

posted by justgary at 7:44 PM CDT on March 8

You one Crafty Sousepaw! Tooooooooo funny!

posted by tommytrump at 9:32 PM CDT on March 9