grum, I wasn't aware that Rose bet on games he was playing in, just games he was managing (still pretty bad but a very different "crime"). If that's true, and I have every reason to believe your superior base of knowledge, then no, he shouldn't be in the HOF. Thanks for clarifying.
Mark McGwire is a lying, stonewalling, selfish jackass. He skirted both the official rules of baseball and the laws of the land, and quite probably broke plenty of both. He took steroids, and then stood up in congress and refused to help them get to the bottom of what has apparently become an epidemic in professional and amateur sports, no thanks to him. His inability to take a stand and stick to it has damaged his reputation, not just right now, but for all time. Fifty years from now, people will look at McGwire's numbers, and tut-tut sadly. He is uncelebrateable. Everyone claiming that Barry Bonds is taking all the heat for steroids is conveniently ignoring the fact that McGwire can't even go to functions in St. Louis anymore for fear of reprisal. But all that said, the Hall of Fame was never a church social, and he should be in. Just like Rose, and Bonds, and Palmeiro.
I wasn't aware that Rose bet on games he was playing in, just games he was managing He was a player/manager near the end of his career (1984-1986). They have chronicled betting slips of his from the 1987 season, but eyewitness testimony from former friends say he was doing it in 1985 and 1986 as well. And betting on games where you are a manager is even worse than as a player. If you start screwing up in the field/mound/bat, your manager can pull you out of the game. But as a manager, you can manipulate your lineup (such as pitching changes) in any way you feel. That's where you can really affect the outcome of the game.
Glad to see that my first ever post to SF at least got a little response! Now for my opinion: Mac did bring people back to the game. He was and is, by all accounts, a nice guy. He did hit a tremendous amount of dingers. He DOESN'T belong in the Hall. The HOF should be a place to revel in the achievements of the games greatest players and I would not put Big Mac in that category. Good player, fun to watch, possibly a law-breaker (not unlike a lot of our sports heroes) but I just can't consider him great. I can't stand Barry, but he is a great player. I don't really want to see him in the Hall but he should end up there.
Just like Rose, and Bonds, and Palmeiro. I think Palmeiro was enough of a borderline, borderline case before the steroids issue that I don't know he does belong anymore.
The best thing i ever did was throw my Mac,Bonds,Raffie bats into the backyard firepit while all my friends cheered(all gamers i might add).Wait until they all get full blown cancer in a few years,which they will.Then what,blame the hotdogs from the ballpark for the cancer?
Damn, Irish, you sound like a jilted lover.
Chico, do you live in STL? I do, but I am not aware of "reprisal" issues with McGwire and STL. Where did you get your info?
irish: Cancer? You mean the cancer you probablly caused your friends when you subjected them to burning chemically altered products? If you believe taking an illegal drug keeps you out of the HOF then every HOF player who took greenies should be out. And don't forget doctors were known to give the occasional "B12" shot. McGwire's only mistake before Congress was in not saying, "You, sir, can stick my bat up your ass." That committee was looking to make headlines. Period. Anything that happened there shouldn't impact the HOF vote.
Mcgwire is a doper...anyone who says otherwise is a fool. Keep him, Palmeiro, Bonds, Sosa, etc. out of Cooperstown. Don't be naive....Mcgwire is a "nice guy" but nice guys shoot the shi! too.
You left out a very important part of my comment grum. The difference is is a very important part of it. McGwire improved his team with his act but Rose could have destroyed the team if it helped his bet. By just numbers I think they are both in. If we included numbers and outside the park stuff then I still vote both of them in. The reason Rose isn't in and McGwire has a chance is Rose endangered his team and baseball with what he did and McGwier brought baseball back.
You left out a very important part of my comment grum. The difference is is a very important part of it. You are right. I misread what you wrote. I interpretted your statement as "He should be in the HOF and did this bad thing." when in fact it was "He should be in the HOF, but did this bad thing." My apologies.
McGwire's 70 home run year along with Sosa revitalized interest in the game. But the bottom line is that these steroid enhanced players cheated all of us. The most effective deterrent is to deny hall of fame entry to both Mac and Bonds so that their shameful records are never glorified.
cardsfan: Didn't he wind up not showing for the Busch Stadium closing ceremonies for fear of the reaction his appearance would have provoked?
We stood downwind from the smoke ya dope.Like burning 3 roid bat's is worse than the pollution or even the air in your house.Actually,the bats were ash, pretty much with the laquer shaved off.Thanks for your concern tho.I'm jilted,i loved baseball more than anything until all this shit came out.If i had a Sammy bat,the cork would of made the fire last longer....
CB: He was there for the final regular season weekend, even pulled down #3 on the countdown clock in right field. There were a few boos from the typical beer drinking bench warmers, but all he (and his kids) would have heard was cheering. (Once a Cardinal, always a Cardinal. We'll still cheer for you even if you leave us to go play for the AL team that whooped us in the Series.) He did fess up to taking andro when the media questioned him, I'm not sure if he really could have done much good for the game by full disclosure in a congressional witch hunt. The players have got to police themselves and keep "trainers" (groupies) who lack the raw talent to be a big leager but still want to be part of baseball greatness out of the locker rooms. As for HOF voting, its gotta be based on player production relative to the era they played. Otherwise you would have to include the years that Mantle led the league in "the clap" as part of his profile.
The most effective deterrent is to deny hall of fame entry to both Mac and Bonds so that their shameful records are never glorified. The stuff Bonds used to break the records was banned by baseball and I agree he should be kept out of the HOF but McGwire used stuff that baseball had not banned. To me the homerun record still belongs to Big Mac. He used leagal stuff. Bonds didn't.
I think Mac is in. He retired just in time. When it comes down to it, that's pretty much the "technicality", if you will, that will allow for his inclusion. Because the numbers are so staggeringly in his favour. Palmeiro isn't close to Mac in terms of his year over year production. And the end of his career will always haunt him. And I am no Big Mac fan. I believe he was on more than just Andro. But, simply put - he got away with it.
I don't think he should get in on the first ballot, not because of steroids but because he wasn't a HOF caliber player. I think there is an argument to slide him in if a relatively weak year comes along due to his achievements hitting home runs. But other than those HRs, he never actually won much of anything. He was never the MVP, he was not great fielder, never really hit for average at all (he only had 2 full season over .300). He won a WS but only hit 5 HRs total in his playoff career (10 series - 42 games).
Maybe they should have a Shoeless Rose MacBonds wing where they can all be memorialized.
irishmic2004@sbcglobal.net: "We stood downwind from the smoke ya dope" That's what I figured.
