With Weedy all the way here, except I don't think the Wings will even make the West final. That, and WingsFilter! And Barry Melrose (author of the inane linked column, for those who don't click) is an idiot: A few months ago, we thought Thrashers GM Don Waddell was nuts, pulling a Knute Rockne and predicting Atlanta would make the playoffs. The Thrashers went on to play themselves into a postseason spot but then hit a wall. Now, they have dropped out of the playoff picture. How is being in contention until the penultimate day "dropping out of the playoff picture"? I'm in Montreal, and I can assure you that the Trashers are still very much in the picture. We hear about them everyday, and we're scared. Look, we all knew before the season started that there were huge question marks for the Maple Leafs. They signed a bunch of older free agents, they did it to themselves and they were destined to fail. So, what happened? Injuries have been a factor (Jason Allison, Eric Lindros, Ed Belfour); So we knew there were huge question marks, but we didn't know that Allison and Lindros would get hurt. Riiiiiight. The drastic change in Nashville's fortunes is shocking. For a team to go from being one of the best eight teams in the league with a great chance to make a Cup run to losing its MVP goaltender for the rest of the season ... it's just a backbreaker for the Predators. Chris Mason has five consecutive wins, and looks poised to be this year's surprise "hot goalie". Can't Melrose read a fucking boxscore?
Chris Mason has five consecutive wins In all honesty, those five wins all came against teams already out of the playoffs.
And it has to be so deflating for Nashville - I mean, a week to go, 100 points and then an illness that half of them can't pronouce hits their All-Star goalie. I think that's what breaks the back of this team. Not that Chris Mason plays awful, but that the team in front of him feels they have to play differently in order to win. And Vokun was SO good to boot. He was their MVP (Kariya being a close second). Plus they probably have to face San Jose. I think they're cooked.
Ahhh Captain, it's been glorious. Thank you. For the next, I have always been a fan of promoting Lidstrom, (well above Shanny & Chris though no disrespect intended). Year after year after year of stellar defensive play, always been a Wing, always should be. Though I see the arguement for Datsyuk or Zetterburg. As far as the playoffs, sure this team or that one should advance, and I am hoping that Stevie Y does a Bettis. But if not, may we have good hockey anyways. Go Wings! Go 7 game series decided in O.T.!!!!!!!
Oh, and Messier being better than Stevie Y.? Sigh, maybe. (that's the best your going to get out of me!)
Not that Chris Mason plays awful, but that the team in front of him feels they have to play differently in order to win. And that might actually be good. Think of how the Canadiens started playing once they removed superstar Thodore and put no-name Huet between the pipes. If that had happened a week ago instead of a month and a half, we could have seen a parade on Ste-Catherine. Of course, there is a big difference: Vokoun was actually stopping pucks, unlike Jos.
And that might actually be good. Think of how the Canadiens started playing once they removed superstar Thodore and put no-name Huet between the pipes. If that had happened a week ago instead of a month and a half, we could have seen a parade on Ste-Catherine. Okay, yes, they could pull a Canadiens - but I still think that losing your starting goalie a week before the playoffs is hardly a good thing. These guys weren't on the bubble, they couldn't have been playing better. It's nothing less than devestating.
I agree, pulling a Canadiens is but an outside chance for the Preds. But this kind of test can also cement a team spirit. Either way, they're meeting the red hot Sharks in the first round. Even with an healthy Vokoun, that wouldn't have been easy.
2) Pistol Pete is not the symbol of the NBA. If you're referring to the logo - that's Jerry West. You see now I thought it was West, but I got into an arguement with my wife over it and she insisted it was Maravich. That'll teach me to listen to a her about basketball. I love her, but she's even a Knicks fan, which is damn near grounds for divorce any way.
4) The next captain of the Wings is Nick Lidstrom. Trust me. (Again, Datsyuk?!?! Are you fucking high?) May well be, but I'm still sticking by Datsyuk as the future of the RedWings and I'm even sober this morning (was a bit tiddly last night)
5) Yzerman is passing Messier on the goal scoring list - which is awesome. Mess will still have way more points. And Mess is the better player. We can all agree to that, right? No.
OK, this will get dirty. mkn, you're wrong.
Messier was a great player and a great leader, yes. No doubt about that. Hall of famer. But I think Yzerman was a better player. In the late 80s and early 90s, Messier was on better teams the Yzerman. The Gretzky-less Oilers of the late 80s were still a far superior team than the Red Wings of the time. So when talking production on the ice (I'm not talking intangible things like leadership and what not), Yzerman was the superior player and I maintain that. If you are talking intangibles and what not, Messier was probably better overall -- but not by that much. It's not like Yzerman wasn't much of a leader himself. So yeah. But I'm biased -- I have a freaking Yzerman rookie card.
I have a freaking Yzerman rookie card. No way! How much do you want for it? Check this Gordie Howe out, dude. By the way, in my biased opinion, the only thing that Messier has on Yzerman is that he got to play on an NHL team with Gretzky. Oh, and he's got way more penalty minutes than Stevie, too. Like 986 more. And I'm sure if Yzerman had a teammate like Gretzky during his time in the NHL, he'd have just as many helpers (Messier 1193 to Yzerman's 1063) if not more.
mkn - It's kind of a silly debate - they're both first ballot HoFers with ease, but the Moose is just flat out one of the best hockey players ever. Yzerman is one of the best scorers ever, no doubt, but I don't think he ranks in the same stratosphere as the Mighty One. In terms of playoff production, Stanley Cup wins, points and intangibles I think Mess has Yzerman hands down. He has more awards, more Cups and more first team All-Star selections I also think those morons at the Hockey News would disagree with you. They have Mess as one of the greatest NHLers of all-time (I think they had him at number 11 - fitting). They didn't have Yzerman near the top 50. I like to think they know what they're talking about - though I would have Yzerman in the top 50 for sure. I'm sorry, but even a cursory examination of their careers - in their prime and later - points to Messier winning that one-on-one at every stage. I don't think there's a GM alive who would pick Yzerman over Messier in their primes.
And Yzerman has more hair, too.
Nice stats you got there wingnut. Now the question I have is, what were thier points per game average for career, season, and playoffs?
But I'm biased -- I have a freaking Yzerman rookie card. I'd sell my wife for one! Good thing she doesn't read this blog though.
Messier 1.07 points/game lifetime Yzerman 1.15 points/game lifetime Messier: 1.25 points/game playoffs lifetime Yzerman: 0.94 points/game playoffs lifetime But like I said, most of Messier's playoff successes have been with a really good Oilers team, even post Gretzky. And it's not like the early 90s Rangers sucked either. Yzerman, however, didn't really have a solid, complete team until the 90s. And he still has just as many Conn Smythes as Messier.
Did Yzerman ever publicly guarantee a win during the playoffs and score a hat trick in a single period to make sure it happened? Thought so.
Mark Messier Lifetime Regular Season: 694 goals 1193 assists in 1756 games averaging 1.07 points per game. Playoffs: 109 goals and 186 assists in 236 games averaging 1.25 points per game. Six Stanley Cups. Steve Yzerman Lifetime Regular Season: 692 goals and 1063 assists in 1513 games averaging 1.16 points per game. Still playing... Playoffs: 70 goals and 111 assists in 192 games averaging 0.94 points per game. Three Stanley Cups. Still playing... SOURCE: INTERNET HOCKEY DATABASE Average number of hairs on Yzerman's head: Approximately 125,000. Average number of hairs on Messier's head: Approximately zero. SOURCE: YAHOO! SEARCH
Oh yeah, qbert? Well has Messier ever been in a hyperbaric oxygen chamber? Yzerman has! So there!
I did see Yzerman take a puck to the the knee blocking a shot which dropped him like a sack of potatoes, but he still tried to drag himself in front of the net to block more. Now that takes a big set of brass ones.
His glory years were 10-12 yars ago
No doubt Stevie Y is a great one. Ranks right up there with Messier. But I have to give the push to Messier. Just a maniac when it came down to it. And the Messier was with Gretzky while Stevie was doing it all alone arguement . . . one can argue that since the "Dead Wings" as they were known as, (ahh the days when one could walk on down to the J.L.A. and purchase nose bleed tics and have the arena at ones choice), were soooo bad, that 1, teams let down when they played them, and 2, Stevie received all the ice time that he could get. Sure Stevie Y. is one of the great ones, ranks equally with Mike Modano & Joe Sakic in my book, but all three are still just behind the Moose. (And that classic, "We will win" in game 6, backed up with a hat trick . . . just totally Messier). Go Wings. Go Stevie Y. Thanks Mark
After long and careful consideration I still have to give it to Yzerman. There is no question about it really, he does have more and better hair.
one can argue that since the "Dead Wings" were soooo bad, that 1, teams let down when they played them, and 2, Stevie received all the ice time that he could get. Oh come on, that's a poor example! By that logic, Lemieux, Sakic, and Ovechkin aren't all that good because they too got a lot of points for some really, really shitty teams (80s Pens and late 80s-early 90s Nordiques, current Caps.) Did Messier ever win the Masterson trophy for perserverence in coming back from a really bad knee injury? Thought so! But this is an argument that I can't seem to win, so... I'll just go fondle my rookie card.
Speaking of which, Wings vs Stars tonight. Should be a good one and should really determine who the favourite coming out of the west will be (other than Calgary).
Come on guys, take off your red-coloured glasses for a minute, and tell us straight-faced that you'd take '97 Yzerman over '90 or '94 Messier. Sure, Yzerman is the greatest player to play in Detroit in the last 30 years, but let's be realistic here. If Scotty doesn't come and fix the Wings with a loaded team at the end of the nineties, Stevie Y's career ends up fitting right between Marcel Dionne's and Bernie Federko's, and no one even dares compare him to Messier.
If Scotty doesn't come and fix the Wings... Exactly my point. What if's. Let's be realistic again and wonder how Messier would have ended up without having Gretzky as a teammate? Do you think he would have had the same career? Nobody knows that because it didn't happen that way. Bottom line is Yzerman did it with the Dead Wings and the Red Wings.
gstueve - let me be the third person to welcome you to SportsFilter, and to let you know not to pay too much attention to some of the olde timers here who may not have recognized a post that may have been meant as humorous. It may be blasphemy, but there is more to life than sports, and it should include a sense of humor and understanding. Stick around so that some day you too can come down hard on a rookie poster.
You do realize that Messier did not play on the same line as Gretzky, do you? That was Kurri and Anderson. Now those two guys are bona fide Gretzky by-products. Anyway, it's a religious war, I'm not going to win it more than mkn. I will say this, though: outside of Red Wings fans, not a lot of hockey people would pick Stevie Y over the Moose. Now either we're all terribly wrong, or...
Stop it, Stop it, Stop it. This is the only place I've ever even heard of such an arguement. Yzerman is a great player - just not in the class of Messier. Period. There is no arguement to the contrary. Ask some NHLers, ask some hockey historians - go to the hockey Hall of Fame. They'll show and tell you why. It has a little to do with the stats and a lot to do with actually being a student of the game. Marcel Dionne has fantastic stats. Better than Yzerman. Not as good. See?
It may be blasphemy, but there is more to life than sports Oooooooooooo what you said!!!!! Blasphemy is too nice of a word for it!
I really hate when I can't impose my will on people! I am just too biased to continue on logically. Next thing you know I'll be comparing skate sizes and shit.
Woah, is that Messier wearing nothing but a towel, holding a beer? And where is his other hand?
The way ''hockey''is played today Kristi Yamaguchi could captain any team in the NHL
Yzerman is like Barry Bonds, Bret Favre and the others who stayed around past their productive years. Goodbye Stevie, get a job.
Yzerman is like Barry Bonds, Bret Favre and the others who stayed around past their productive years. Goodbye Stevie, get a job. Comment icon posted by joromu at 9:05 PM CST on April 17 Nice try, joromu. You've already told us you don't like/follow hockey. So your comment doesn't mean squat. Too bad.
You do realize that Messier did not play on the same line as Gretzky, do you? Quick note: Messier played on Gretzky's line as a left winger for part of a season (1979-80) before Anderson and Kurri were on the team.
Thanks for the correction, grum. I was going mostly out of memory on that one. Still, the point stands: Messier was not a Gretzky by-product. Speaking of which, who would be Yzerman's by-products? Did he turn IHL all-stars la Rob Brown into 50-goal scorers the way Lemieux could? (Honest question, here.) Oh, and thanks for the pic, njsk8r!
Messier was not a Gretzky by-product. That is the truth. Speaking of which, who would be Yzerman's by-products? Gerard Gallant? Ray Sheppard? Yzerman often played with quality players (Ciccarelli, Shanahan) who were previously established, or was often the only player on his team that would get 40 goals. Examples 1, 2, 3, 4. Quick note: Rob Brown didn't get 50 goals in a season. He only got 49 one year.
Woah, is that Messier wearing nothing but a towel, holding a beer? And where is his other hand? Well if that's really Gary Coleman then it looks to me like he just discovered Michael Jackson got there first.
Ah - I'm not giving Yzerman enough credit. He has had a phenomenal, all-time great career. He's just not as good as Messier. That's all. I will enjoy watching his final march to the Mug - and part of me will be cheering for him all the way (but I want the Flames to win).
