FanDuel - WFBC

June 03, 2008

Ortiz goes on DL: "His wrist will be immobilized in a cast for two weeks, and if it is healed by then, it should take about two weeks for Ortiz to get back into playing shape. Manager Terry Francona said it is "very unlikely" Ortiz will require surgery."

posted by crqri to baseball at 09:20 AM - 36 comments

My question is, how soon before the Barry Bonds conversations begin? Thou shalt not editorialize in a front page post. Opinions are for comments.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 09:40 AM on June 03

There have been converstations about Barry Bonds from the moment the season started. They follow one of two lines: 1) How can a team in contention NOT sign Barry Bonds when they have an injury to their big slugger? He's the best available hitter, and if you really want to win you have to pick him up. 2) How can a team even THINK about signing Barry Bonds? Fans will revolt if you sign the big cheater to your team.

posted by grum@work at 09:46 AM on June 03

It's already come up on the Red Sox message board. I really don't see why they would pick up Bonds or anybody else at this point. They've got depth in the outfield, to the point where it's been a bit of a problem, keeping four good players active with only three places to put them. I haven't been a fan of Coco Crisp in the past, but he's looking pretty motivated this year...every time I think JD Drew is nothing much, he shuts me up...Ellsbury has too many talents to sit him down...and Manny has, in my mind, transformed himself from a bag of dirty laundry with a screw loose who can yank one now and then into a better fitting bag of cleaner laundry who yanks one more consistently, and actually moves his feet in the outfield from time to time. He's still got a screw loose, though. Manny to DH would be my vote, put either Coco or Ellsbury in left, let the band play on.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 11:19 AM on June 03

every time I think JD Drew is nothing much, he shuts me up You must not think that very often.

posted by yerfatma at 11:50 AM on June 03

You must not think that very often. Maybe it's just my excellent timing. The last time I said, "Why are they keeping that guy?" he hit a grand slam the next day.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 01:32 PM on June 03

Manny to DH ... put either Coco or Ellsbury in left, let the band play on. DING! That's my feeling as well. The Red Sox won't add someone as divisive as Bond$ to their squad.

posted by scully at 01:59 PM on June 03

Manny to DH ... put either Coco or Ellsbury in left, let the band play on. Nothing would make me happier than to be *forced to move Ellsbury to left and DH Manny. Every time a ball is hit hard to left I hold my breath. And if the Red Sox pick up that lying, cheating piece of shit Bonds I swear to God I will become a Yankees fan overnight. wait ... is that possible? It would be like a sex change or something

posted by smithnyiu at 02:20 PM on June 03

It's simply too early to do anything. So far the outlook is everything from a month on the DL to a possible end to his career. Wait and see for now. They follow one of two lines: 1) How can a team in contention NOT sign Barry Bonds when they have an injury to their big slugger? He's the best available hitter, and if you really want to win you have to pick him up. 2) How can a team even THINK about signing Barry Bonds? Fans will revolt if you sign the big cheater to your team. posted by grum@work I'd say it's far more complicated that that. I don't care about his cheating, but I don't think reason number 1 is written in stone. From Bill James (yerfatma's link): But here's a far more important piece. You'd have to be a Bill James Online subscriber to read them, but Bill James did two Bonds columns last week, pre-Ortiz injury. In the first of them, he states: "I donít want anything to do with Barry Bonds. Why? Simple: I donít believe in his future, Iím not convinced of his value in the present, and Iím not interested in the past." And the reason he doesn't believe in Bonds' present: "Bonds, in my view ó like [Babe] Ruth in 1934 ó has reached a point of such extraordinary narrowness of his skills that there is an imminent danger that the structure will simply collapse at any moment ó as it did on Ruth in 1935." Then, when called out on it, James explained further a few days later: "[When] a player reaches the point where ALL that he does is hit, he is normally very near to the end . . . .if you look at old players who have a very high OPS and essentially no other skills, what happens to them is that they suddenly collapse. They go from 'valuable' to 'out of the game' or 'still in the game, but worthless' in one year." And he lists examples: Mark McGwire. Mike Schmidt, Willie Stargell. Henry Aaron. Willie Mays. Stan Musial. Ted Williams. Jackie Robinson. Joe DiMaggio. Hank Greenberg. Mel Ott. Indian Bob Johnson. Edgar Martinez. Even Jason Giambi, who, he points out "had an OPS of .971 [in 2006], one of the highest in baseball. In 2007 he suffered a dramatic dropoff. He may not be finished; maybe heíll come back, but. . . . it wasnít a good experience."

posted by justgary at 02:55 PM on June 03

Edgar Martinez? Did he ever do anything but hit?

posted by Chargdres at 04:22 PM on June 03

He was a third baseman at one point. Pre-Mike Blowers, IIRC.

posted by yerfatma at 07:49 PM on June 03

Guess slipping the comment into the FPP did the trick. I'd bet the panic button forgot what it felt like to be pushed given the past few years.

posted by YukonGold at 07:50 PM on June 03

He was a third baseman at one point. Pre-Mike Blowers, IIRC. Actually, it was pre-Martinez-repeatedly-injuring-himself-at-third-base. He missed a LOT of games early in his career because he kept getting injured in the field. The DH not only made his career, it saved his career. They go from 'valuable' to 'out of the game' or 'still in the game, but worthless' in one year." And he lists examples: Mark McGwire. Mike Schmidt, Willie Stargell. Henry Aaron. Willie Mays. Stan Musial. Ted Williams. Jackie Robinson. Joe DiMaggio. Hank Greenberg. Mel Ott. Indian Bob Johnson. Edgar Martinez. WTF? Final season OPS for Ted Williams - 1.096 That does not indicate "out of the game" or "worthless" to me. The only reason he retired was because he was 42 years old and he didn't need the hassle any more. Plus, there was some fine fly-fishing to be had in the summer months. I can see where Bill James is coming from, but since we are talking about using Bonds as STRICTLY a DH, I can't see "where ALL that he does is hit" would be a bad thing. Of course, every week that he goes without playing is another week where his skills may be atrophying, so I think you'd reach a point of no return by July.

posted by grum@work at 08:21 PM on June 03

The problems come not with Bonds at the plate but with Bonds in the dugout between at bats. What sort of hate and discontent will he be spreading? Also, any club signing Bonds runs a strong risk of having him plucked off the roster to play for one or another Federal Prison team.

posted by Howard_T at 09:25 PM on June 03

What sort of hate and discontent will he be spreading? Also, any club signing Bonds runs a strong risk of having him plucked off the roster to play for one or another Federal Prison team. Have you listened to former teammates? Bonds isn't hated by his teammates, except by those that seem to hate lots of other players (cough*Kent*cough). There is something that usually stops the spread of hate and discontent: winning. If adding Bonds to your team's roster helps them win, nobody will say boo about any discontent (if it existed). Secondly, the federal trial won't take place until after the season. They've barely gotten the indictments (re)done.

posted by grum@work at 10:58 PM on June 03

Exactly... there's no good reason Bonds isn't in uniform right now, and the fact that he isn't- barring some evidence that multiple teams have made realistic offers and have been rejected- does seem to suggest some collusion on the part of the teams to blackball him. As for Ortiz... fuck. He was getting his hitting stroke in May after a piss-poor April, and now this? Argh. Through the first two months, the standings- league wide- are as tight as they've ever been. Almost no teams are truly out of it, and the top and bottom teams are separated by really just one reasonable (6-7 games) winning or losing streak. The Sox can't afford a long period without Ortiz, and hopefully he'll be back in 3+ weeks, and not out for the season. But if Ortiz was out for the season, and we knew that right NOW... then I'd have zero problem with picking up Bonds for a song to get him playing as DH. He'd be perfect for it, if he wasn't too pricey (similar to Thomas in Oakland, practically free for the team he's playing for) and he wanted a simple 1 year deal.

posted by hincandenza at 12:24 AM on June 04

Of course, every week that he goes without playing is another week where his skills may be atrophying, so I think you'd reach a point of no return by July. That's my biggest concern. If he was a bit younger and part 1 of your post was guaranteed then I can see it. But at his age, with the amount of time he's had off, I have a hard time believing his hitting wouldn't take a pretty big hit. What sort of hate and discontent will he be spreading? Like most clubhouses, if the Sox were winning with Bonds, I doubt you'd see any problems. However, I believe bonds has stated before he doesn't want to play in boston, and if he doesn't perform after signing for big money (he's not signing for a song hal) then I could see it getting ugly. He's only a perfect fit if he hits, (and unlike Hal, again) I don't see any guarantees he will. I also wouldn't count the sox out without ortiz. Things would have to fall into place. Drew (who like LBB I've also been impressed with), Manny, Lowell etc, will have to step up. But if the pitching is there, who knows. Teams over the 100 million mark in salary shouldn't be done after one injury, wether ortiz or arod. The sox played well earlier in the season when ortiz wasn't hitting, and they've played badly when ortiz was going strong.

posted by justgary at 01:12 AM on June 04

An Open Letter To Theo Epstein

posted by justgary at 02:30 AM on June 04

Bonds said in the past he'd never play in Boston. Of course, the last time he said that, Bonds actually had a job. I still don't like Bonds. Sorry Bonds lovers. The media in Boston would devour him, and in turn, he'd end up being a one man circus. If Ortiz is out for the season, see what's on the trade market in July.

posted by jerseygirl at 05:51 AM on June 04

Final season OPS for Ted Williams - 1.096 That does not indicate "out of the game" or "worthless" to me. That was my reaction as well, but I'm guessing James' point is that Williams was never a good fielder and at age 42 it was probably hard to hide him. I still think you could put a 1000 OPS somewhere. What's first base for if not that? I only mentioned Mike Blowers because I was amazed that name came back to me. It only came back to me because he owned Wakefield in Wake's first couple of seasons with the Sox.

posted by yerfatma at 07:58 AM on June 04

The media in Boston would devour him, and in turn, he'd end up being a one man circus. Wouldn't that be a two-ring circus, with Manny-Being-Manny?

posted by grum@work at 10:12 AM on June 04

see what's on the trade market in July. Starting DH for your Red Sox, Adam "Lummox" Dunn!

posted by tahoemoj at 11:57 AM on June 04

Sorry Bonds lovers. Besides himself, name one.

posted by smithnyiu at 12:08 PM on June 04

lil_brown_bat , I didn't mean to put the comment in there, but then I couldn't figure out how to edit the thing. For the record, I don't think the Sox need Bonds. I was just wondering aloud how long before the Bonds chatter would begin. It is a natural assumption that as soon as any major bat goes down, his name is going to come up. I remember some people suggesting Bonds might sign with the Rays before the season began. I wonder how the Rays would be now if that had happened.

posted by crqri at 12:20 PM on June 04

By the way, justgary, great link!

posted by crqri at 12:25 PM on June 04

Starting DH for your Red Sox, Adam "Lummox" Dunn! They'd take him in a heartbeat. I'll never understand general fandom's disgust with Three True Outcome players who are good. I also don't understand how Russell Branyan is still playing.

posted by yerfatma at 12:33 PM on June 04

crqi, you were certainly right about how quickly the speculation got started.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 01:02 PM on June 04

The media in Boston would devour him, and in turn, he'd end up being a one man circus As opposed to...? From my recollection, wasn't Bonds already that while playing for San Fran?

posted by BornIcon at 01:26 PM on June 04

As opposed to...? From my recollection, wasn't Bonds already that while playing for San Fran? The media attention bonds received in SF would be trivial to the amount he'd get in Boston. It's not even comparable.

posted by justgary at 02:33 PM on June 04

yfm, I think you're right. And I honestly think Dunn would be a great addition in Boston, where he could even occasionaly play left without looking like a complete buffoon (hell, Manny's doing it.) The Reds could continue on the youth movement, perhaps gatting a talented arm or two to add to their vastly improved staff. There's planty of power in Cincy, even without Dunn, and the Sox could definitely use him now. However, that ain't gonna happen. The Castellini family loves Dunn and would be loathe to part with him for anything less than a top-notch prospect or proven player. And Ortiz will be back eventually, with Dunn commanding way too much money to be a pinch-hitting specialist. I see Griffey moving first, and I'm not sure how he'd feel about Boston (although he's earned the right to play for a legitimate contender, so who knows?) He's definitely got more of an upside than Bonds, being five or six years younger, and lacking the baggage. But I digress...

posted by tahoemoj at 04:14 PM on June 04

Pfft. You have the best record in the league and your DH who's out for a month wasn't hitting great anyway. Try losing your centre fielder and 4 hitter for two months and get back to me. Dunn is going to be traded for pitching I think this year. It makes sense. Not sure what Boston has kicking around in the minors, but I'm sure they wouldn't part with Lester or Bucholtz for him. Nor should they. You guys really think you need to make a trade or sign a free agent? For a one-month injury?

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 06:02 PM on June 04

You have the best record in the league Second in division as I write this. and your DH who's out for a month wasn't hitting great anyway. In may ortiz has an OPS of 1.026. He leads the team in home runs and RBI. He's 3rd in the league in both home runs and RBI. Hopefully he'll come back from the injury and start hitting well. You guys really think you need to make a trade or sign a free agent? For a one-month injury? Nope. Haven't seen a single person calling for something to happen now, and that's on multiple websites. The subject of bonds came up because the poster brought him up in the original post.

posted by justgary at 06:48 PM on June 04

You have the best record in the league 4th in the minors, third best in the AL actually. He might be out for a month... or it might be the end of the season for him. I think he's done for 08, just from the tone of some media people and those who know more (Ortiz included) when discussing the matter. The 1 month isolation of the wrist is a shot in the dark. Doctors have stated that a high percentage of people recover with just isolation of the wrist... of course, "people" is the broad description for anyone who has suffered this injury and generally wouldn't cover power hitting professional baseball players. Truthfully? I think Boston can keep afloat in the interim and should attempt that first. If they suffer any further injuries and Ortiz is actually done for 08, a trade for a batter would be more likely.

posted by jerseygirl at 07:08 PM on June 04

anyone who has suffered this injury and generally wouldn't cover power hitting professional baseball players. I agree. Everything I read leads to the same conclusion. I have to start learning to live without Papi for 08. Then if he comes back we'll party. I still don't know why he can't just bat with one hand, the big pussy. Jesus, just walk it off.

posted by smithnyiu at 07:57 PM on June 04

Everything I read leads to the same conclusion. I don't really get that feeling. I understand being out for 08 is a possibility. Hell, I've read that it could be career ending. But from what I've read no one has any idea what's going to happen. I imagine Theo knows more than anyone, and he seems upbeat. As far as his being a power hitting baseball player, I don't think it matters. Either his wrist is healed when they take the cast off, or it's not. If it's healed, and he re-injures it with another swing, then we've got a chronic problem. But that would another problem altogether, and not because his wrist didn't heal the first time.

posted by justgary at 04:44 PM on June 05

The media attention bonds received in SF would be trivial to the amount he'd get in Boston. It's not even comparable. I wasn't talking about the media in San Fran, I was mentioning the media as a whole while Bonds was playing in San Fran. Everyone knows how beloved he was in the bay area but everywhere else he went to play, Bonds was vilified. The media was all over him when and where ever he was playing as the visitor.

posted by BornIcon at 08:15 AM on June 06

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