grum, perhaps "turn" is the wrong word - he should have turned, in fact - but Beregeron put himself is a terrible, terrible position in the event that he would be hit. Whether to draw a penalty or not, it's just poor judgement - it IS a fast, hard game and chances are good that you're going to get hurt if you don't protect yourself. And I think that the NHL would be suspension happy and actually put in MORE than 2 games if they were catering to popular opinion and public relations. I think they see it similarly - the hit was bad, but it didn't seem to be a question of intent to injure. If the expectation is that people shouldn't be hit if they're in a vulnerable position, then I have about 10 minutes of Scott Stevens highlights to show you. He didn't have to hit someone from behind to hurt them in a vulnerable position. It doesn't happen "regularly". Players do not "regularly" drive opposing players head first into the boards/glass from behind. I hate to say it, grum - but hits of the velocity and position of Jones' do seem to happen all the time - the difference is that Beregeron was bent over with his head down and his back to the defender.
I've always argued in favor of the hitter. But I guess whatever I say will still be taken as a statement from a fan. I suppose that's fair. When people were defending Belichick, I felt the same way about them. (No, I did not just compare the crimes, just our reactions, so don't even go down that road.) I will say more often than not, I've argued in favor of the hitter. I don't want to sound like the head of the Randy Jones defense team, but I also hate seeing a player -- any player -- getting fingered as the posterboy for a play that happens regularly because, in his case, a player was injured. Checks from behind are bad, no argument. Jones should not have done what he did, again no argument. He should have been suspended for two games. The league should examine hits from behind because they do happen a lot. That doesn't mean I think they're okay. I just don't think you can string a guy up because of the outcome. But we are talking about a league that bases the length of a particular penalty on blood or no blood, so I suppose reactionary is part of the M.O. Here's what I think happened. As has been earlier stated, no one was in Jones' head. For all I know Bergeron could have molested his dog. this is just an attempt at a recreation. (CSI SpoFi) If you watch Bergeron as he comes across the blueline, he looks at the defender to his left. As he goes into the corner, he's expecting that defender to follow the play and likely deliver the hit. He did not expect Jones, who is coming from across the ice to send the hit. So Bergeron is bracing for a hit coming from his left, so he stops and sort of spins a bit to the right which would get him out of the line of the other defender. But Jones is coming for a hit from behind, by the letter of the law illegal, but still a routine play. He's not expecting Bergeron to stop. Bergeron's stop is quick, hence the snow from his skate. Jones is guilty of not adjusting, perhaps not paying attention as he had every intention of hitting Bergeron from behind. But he did not expect Bergeron to stop as he did. If you picture Bergeron up against the glass as Jones finishes his check, it isn't a brutal hit. But Bergeron stopped and Jones didn't The league needs to address this. The league needs to both make players aware that they can't hit from behind and they also need to be aware when their back is to the play. They need to be aware of what's going on at all times. Expecting a hit from behind is sort of like crossing the street in a crosswalk. If I'm walking and you're driving, it's you're fault if you hit me. But that doesn't mean I'm going to cross just assuming you'll stop and I have o plan accordingly. Likewise, players should be ready for a hit from behind near the boards, and coaches should teach them as such. Doesn't mean the hitter isn't at fault, just means everyone would be safer. The whole ounce-of-prevention thing. I've read before that some high school and college coaches actually teach their kids to turn their backs at the glass to protect the puck. That's a horrible idea. But I digress. the accusation that I only watch amateur hockey SDD, I didn't mean to imply you only watch amateur hockey. I know you do a lot with amateur hockey, and the rules interpretations are different in pro as compared to high school and college. That is why I said watch anything other than amateur hockey.
the difference is that Beregeron was bent over with his head down and his back to the defender. AND that Jones put his hands/stick on the back of Bergeron's head/neck and pushed. This is not an injury because of something Bergeron did. This is an injury because of something Jones did. but Beregeron put himself is a terrible, terrible position in the event that he would be hit. By playing the puck that was resting against the boards and sweeping it behind the net to his defenseman? I'm sorry, but it should not be considered a "terrible position" if the only way to play the puck is to face the boards. by the letter of the law illegal, but still a routine play. I'm sorry, but you can't call something "illegal" and "routine", unless there is a parade of players going to penalty box for that hit every night. There isn't, so it's not a "routine" play to hit a player from behind. It is routine to hit a player from the side against the boards. It is routine to press against a player and pin him against the boards. It is not routine to push with your hands/stick against the players neck/head and drive them into the boards. He's not expecting Bergeron to stop. What did he expect him to do when he was playing the puck? Skate through the boards and take a seat in the stands? as he had every intention of hitting Bergeron from behind See, and that's why it's a f*cking chicken sh*t hit. The fact that he planned to break the rules means he's got no case for "accidental". None. Likewise, players should be ready for a hit from behind near the boards, and coaches should teach them as such. I'm not sure what you think Bergeron should do here. Are you suggesting he abandon the idea of playing the puck and just skate right into the boards and await getting hit from behind? His job at that moment is to get the puck to his defenseman. He does that without altering his direction. If he doesn't do that (play the puck in front of him), he'll get chewed out by his coach. I understand that Jones didn't intend to injure Bergeron, but there has to be consequences when you commit an illegal act that DOES injure a player. We aren't talking about someone taking a slap shot and hitting an opposing player in the face. The fault lies entirely with Jones. To suggest that Bergeron could have done something different to prevent someone else from breaking the rules is silly.
No it's not silly, as WeedyMcSmokey indicated. 10 out of 10 players (except 1 attempting to draw a penalty) would have turned to skate out of the area. Did we expect him to skate through the boards and take a seat in the stands? No you're almost making the point for us. What player in this league stops and stands there after he plays the puck from the that area? Why would he? 9 1/2 out of 10 players would have chipped the puck along and actually got out of the way of the hit. Players following others into that area are trying to time they're hit with the other players turn/move. What he did was the equivalent of a Baseball player making a subtle leaning motion into the strike zone to take 1 on the shoulder (knowing a high inside pitch is coming), and then wondering why he got hit in the head. Should the pitcher be throwing high and inside? Maybe not, but if the batter doesn't make the wrong move (leaning in to the ball instead of ducking), he doesn't get hit in the head. Now try to imagine assigning blame in that scenario. There are drills in Hockey that teach the exact thing we are discussing. They go over them time and time again. If we all know that if a player goes in to the boards/corners to battle for a puck bent over with his back towards the game his risk of injury is 10 times higher, don't you think a pro knows it? If he chips that puck along and turns out of there we wouldn't be talking about this. Is this all Jones fault? Not by a long shot. Bergeron made a terrible error, one that he will not likely make again, unless he is trying to draw a penalty. While the intent of the Jones hit remains in question, there is no question that Chuck Kobasew went after Jones to pummel him with his fists afterward, what the f*ck do you think his intentions were?
It's Magically Homerriffic! Jones was the innocent victim, while Bergeron shrewdly and deviously enticed him into the hit! Shed a tear for poor, poor Randy Jones, and bust out the brickbats aplenty for the sneaky, underhanded Bergeron! And what the hell happened to the other half of that hockey player?
Call it what you want Black hand, but calling the Flyers dirty motherf*ckers is haterific at best. Jones leads all Flyers defensemen in points and leads the Flyers in +/- at +8. He is far from jesse boulerice and far from a goon. And I'll say it again, if Bergeron played that puck as he was trained to this topic wouldn't exist. Grum you mentioned Domi, but what was your opinion of the headhunting forearm Darcy Tucker gave to Sami Kapanen a few years back? How many games did he get for that? Domi and Tucker being on your favorite team and you're calling the 07' Flyers dirty MF's. Get real.
Is this all Jones fault? Not by a long shot. Bergeron made a terrible error, one that he will not likely make again, unless he is trying to draw a penalty. Yes, it is all Jones' fault. He is the one that hit Bergeron. Trying to pass ANY of the blame to Bergeron is probably the dumbest response you could make. I'm sure you thought that McAmmond deserves some of the blame for the Downie hit, and that Kesler shouldn't have put his face in the way of Boulerice's stick. After all, if they had learned their lessons properly, McAmmond would have known to, uh, never go behind the net and Kesler would have known to, um, f*ck, I don't know what he could have done to avoid getting the crosscheck in the face. But I'm sure you have some deranged explanation... And I'll say it again, if Bergeron played that puck as he was trained to this topic wouldn't exist. No, it wouldn't exist if Jones didn't decide to break the rules and hit Bergeron from behind. You can spin it all you want, but Jones was the one breaking the rules (with full intent, by the way, since he NEVER was going to hit him from any other direction). Grum you mentioned Domi, but what was your opinion of the headhunting forearm Darcy Tucker gave to Sami Kapanen a few years back? How many games did he get for that? Domi and Tucker being on your favorite team and you're calling the 07' Flyers dirty MF's. Get real. Tucker's hit was legal. No penalty on the play. Ask Sami himself. Well, that's if he remembers it at all. However, I thought Domi's attack on Neidermeyer to be dirty. Also, Domi hasn't played for the Leafs since 2005/06 season, so you might want to catch up with the times. But I find it hilarious that you are trying to defend the 2007 Flyers as not being "dirty". They've had 3 different players suspended for illegal hits, and they haven't even played 15 games of the season yet. While the intent of the Jones hit remains in question, there is no question that Chuck Kobasew went after Jones to pummel him with his fists afterward, what the f*ck do you think his intentions were? I don't know. You're supposedly a Flyers fan. Why don't you ask these guys some time.
Yes, it is all Jones' fault. He is the one that hit Bergeron. Trying to pass ANY of the blame to Bergeron is probably the dumbest response you could make. It's not the dumbest response. It's not dumb at all. I think what was as dumb as Jones' hit was Bergeron putting himself in that position. No one is excusing Jones for the hit -but merely suggesting that the injury wouldn't have happened if Bergeron better protected himself. Do I have to shout it from the rooftops? "If you're going to go low and play the puck with your back to the defense - KEEP YOUR HEAD UP". That's fucking 101. I'm sure you thought that McAmmond deserves some of the blame for the Downie hit, and that Kesler shouldn't have put his face in the way of Boulerice's stick. After all, if they had learned their lessons properly, McAmmond would have known to, uh, never go behind the net and Kesler would have known to, um, f*ck, I don't know what he could have done to avoid getting the crosscheck in the face. Not true. You're reading the video and suggesting that Jones' intent is obvious and cannot be open to interpretation. He's goal was to injure Bergeron. That's unfounded. You don't know that. Most pre-law kids know that you can't make those arguments. In fact - If you looked at Jones' history, role and career you'd see just how much of a non-goon he is. He had 38 minutes in penalties last year over 60 games. Not to mention the complete idiocy of comparing the three hits that were all completely different. McAmmond was in a bad spot - but that hit was a blatant head hunt by a kid trying to make the squad in a lousy way. Boulerice I'm not even going to dignify with a comparison (that guy should have been out of the league years ago). The NHL gave Jones 2 games. That would seem closer to my position than yours. No, it wouldn't exist if Jones didn't decide to break the rules and hit Bergeron from behind. You can spin it all you want, but Jones was the one breaking the rules And finally, I am shocked to hear you like this. The rules? We're talking about a sport where teams are penalized 10 times a game for breaking the "rules". If you're relying on the rules to protect players - then I don't know what to say. You sound like someone who never laced 'em up. I'm surprised man. Really.
He's goal was to injure Bergeron. That's unfounded. You don't know that. Most pre-law kids know that you can't make those arguments. I never said his goal was to injure Bergeron. I said his goal was to hit him illegally. That's something that just can't be disputed with the video. He hit him from behind. That's an illegal hit. Period. The NHL gave Jones 2 games. That would seem closer to my position than yours. I never stated that he should have been suspended for a large number of games (I would have been fine with 5). This whole argument started because I said it was a dirty hit. It was. And finally, I am shocked to hear you like this. The rules? We're talking about a sport where teams are penalized 10 times a game for breaking the "rules". If you're relying on the rules to protect players - then I don't know what to say. You sound like someone who never laced 'em up. I'm surprised man. Really If you are trying to compare "holding the stick" and "too many men on the ice" to "hitting from behind" and "boarding", I'm more surprised than you are. There is a reason why children's hockey leagues insist on having a "STOP" patch on the back of every kid's jerseys. It's a simple rule: don't hit other players from behind. Hitting someone from behind is dangerous. Jones had planned to hit Bergeron from behind (as you can see in the video). Therefore Jones had planned to be dangerous. Why is anyone even trying to debate this fact? Oh, and I played hockey for 10 years. Not that it matters, of course, since you don't have to actually play a sport to understand what is dangerous and what isn't. I've never played American football, but I know that spearing another player with your helmet is a dangerous (and illegal) play.
NO, it's not being debated because you called the Jones hit dirty, it's because you lumped the hit in with the other 2 and called the 07' Flyers dirty motherf*ckers. I'm not putting all the blame on the victim, I'm simply saying things may have turned out different if he played the puck as Mcsmokey suggested. If you did play hockey for 10 years you should at least understand what we mean. How ironic you call the Tucker hit clean, it was an obvious forearm to the head, no body check would have caused that kind of reaction. He went high on a smaller player and look at how you defend it you damn homer. Tucker is nothing but a goon and you defend him with everything you've got. Crazy, but expected from a Flyer hater. The Flyers are in 1st place and will be in the ECF, live with it.
Okay - I'm letting it go. Grum - I believe you've mentioned before that you played, which is why I was surprised at the heat of your response. I honestly thought the whole issue was an unfortunate marriage of a bad decision by Jones, a poor positioning by Bergeron and the weight of two previously really dirty plays hanging over the Flyers. Anyway - nice passion out there, boys. "You're a killer Dave!, A killer!"
Dave's a mess.
I'm sure you thought that McAmmond deserves some of the blame for the Downie hit, and that Kesler shouldn't have put his face in the way of Boulerice's stick. After all, if they had learned their lessons properly, McAmmond would have known to, uh, never go behind the net and Kesler would have known to, um, f*ck, I don't know what he could have done to avoid getting the crosscheck in the face. I think everyone has made it perfectly clear that those hits were shit. Yet you continue to group them all together. I suppose it's just surprising coming from someone like you. Kind of like: I don't know. You're supposedly a Flyers fan. Why don't you ask these guys some time. But in the exact same post you say: Domi hasn't played for the Leafs since 2005/06 season, so you might want to catch up with the times. So if someone should get with the times because a player is 1 season removed from a team, what does that say to someone who brings up a team from two generations ago? Your obviously entitled to your opinion, and I will always respect it. I'm just surprised by some of your comments in this thread.
