FanDuel - WFBC

July 05, 2006

Francona says Manny Out for All-Star Game: Once again, the leading vote-getter for the All-Star Game can't play in the contest. Is Manny really hurting or is it another case of him not wanting to attend? And is Francona playing the heavy and covering for him?

posted by dyams to baseball at 09:35 AM - 123 comments

Buster Olney wrote a column on ESPN today wondering if Manny should be left off the ballot next year (and possibly beyond) until he decides if the game's worth his time. It seems that even if he can't play, he should show up and be present. It's not like he's a reserve; he's the top vote-getter! (The ESPN link was part of the Insiders package, and I wasn't sure how many had access to that content. I linked the Boston Globe's story instead).

posted by dyams at 09:42 AM on July 05

I don't know how serious Olney was about that suggestion, but it ain't happening. Manny, I am sure, gets a bonus for election whether he plays in the game or not. There's no way he, his agent, or the Players Association would allow for his name to get dropped off the ballot. Manny sure is a high-maintenance employee, but he's also one of the game's best hitters. Not much anybody can do but shrug when he pulls stunts like this (if, in fact, this qualifies as "stunt").

posted by BullpenPro at 09:51 AM on July 05

I'm interested in who is going to be selected to replace Manny. I was reading the paper the other day and inside was a quote from Ozzie Guillen saying if anyone cannot play Magglio Ordonez would be the person he would choose. I don't know if that's the way he'll go, but Ordonez is a possibility.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 10:09 AM on July 05

As I recall, Guillen said he'd choose Joe Crede first if anyone pulled out. But Manny needs to suck it up. The fans freakin chose him so he'd better show up at Pittsburgh for the game. Otherwise I'd say that fans should boycott voting for him.

posted by chemwizBsquared at 10:16 AM on July 05

Agreed, chemwiz, if Manny doesn't appreciate the fans gesture and realize that it is an honor, then we as fans, should give him his annual 3 day vacation

posted by mjkredliner at 10:29 AM on July 05

Agreed, chemwiz, if Manny doesn't appreciate the fans gesture and realize that it is an honor, then we as fans, should give him his annual 3 day vacation posted by mjkredliner at 10:29 AM CDT on July 5 You can appreciate the fan gesture without bowing to every move the fans make. He's being honored by being voted in, but he's putting his health and the team first. Better he go out there and strain an already ailing knee just so the fans can see him? I voted for him, but if he wants to sit out to rest and needs it, I'd rather he sit three days now than sit three days when the games matter for the division or the wildcard. Where does putting the team first not translate into putting the fans first? I'm a fan, I want to see Manny and the team win. If there's a legit reason for him not going or playing (and they are different things) then fine. I'd rather see him rest the knee he's had time off already for this season, than play in the ASG.

posted by jerseygirl at 10:37 AM on July 05

He could, uh, suit up and be available as a pinch hitter at least, jerseygirl, if the honor is meaningful at all to him. The fans that voted him in are not all part of Red Sox Nation, they are fans of the game, that voted for him regardless of team allegiance.

posted by mjkredliner at 10:41 AM on July 05

His knee is hurt. I don't know how to say it plainer to you.

posted by jerseygirl at 10:44 AM on July 05

if the honor is meaningful at all to him /stands up, places hand over heart, begins singing Oh wait, we're talking about the All-Star Game?

posted by yerfatma at 10:45 AM on July 05

On second thought, the game will be better off without him.

posted by mjkredliner at 10:47 AM on July 05

ooh burn!

posted by jerseygirl at 10:47 AM on July 05

Thanks for the laughs, y'all made my day!

posted by mjkredliner at 10:54 AM on July 05

Well I can go home now.

posted by jerseygirl at 10:59 AM on July 05

In one of the stories I read where Manny came into the clubhouse one day recently with his knee all bandaged up, and Trot Nixon made a comment that made it appear everyone was expecting Manny to eventually come up with some ailment so he wouldn't have to attend. I hate the Red Sox, but I vote for Manny. I'm not sure playing an inning and getting one at-bat would do too much additional damage to his leg. I'm just wondering what the reaction would be if A-Rod said he wasn't attending (never mind, I'm just instigating, trying to get something started). Honestly, though, it's too bad the Red Sox don't throw Big Papi into the field every so often in order to give Manny a break from running (?) around left field every game and DH. If his knee was acting up and Francona was so concerned, you'd think he'd come up with some sort of plan besides the All-Star game.

posted by dyams at 11:04 AM on July 05

The 10-time All-Star has played in 77 of the Sox' 81 games but has a sore knee, according to Francona, who has cited Ramírez's knee as the reason for the occasional day off and for prematurely taking him out of some one-sided games in recent weeks. Francona's been saying for weeks he hoped Schilling and Manny could rest instead of play. If this is 100% bs, it seems like a hell of a lot of effort.

posted by yerfatma at 11:08 AM on July 05

Yeah, you are instigating. If his knee was acting up and Francona was so concerned, you'd think he'd come up with some sort of plan besides the All-Star game. They rest him, they take him out of blowout games early and put Kapler out there, what else should they do? Certainly, if the guy is coming out of games for rest and getting the occasional day off, then a three-day rest at the ASG does make sense and is a plan. Francona's been saying for weeks he hoped Schilling and Manny could rest instead of play. If this is 100% bs, it seems like a hell of a lot of effort. Schilling opted to not start the ASG in '04 too, if I recall correctly. Something about putting his health and the team first.

posted by jerseygirl at 11:12 AM on July 05

You know who I respect a lot in the sense of all star games? Ken Griffey Jr. That man missed the 95 and 96 games because of injury, but he still showed up to the games. Will Manny do the same thing? Only time will tell. I'm only getting on Manny if he doesn't at least make an appearance. I would only boycott him if he completely skips. Sure he is not gonna play, but he does have an obligation to show up if and only if the injury is minor.

posted by chemwizBsquared at 11:12 AM on July 05

Oh, and because Manny isn't playing, instead of spotting the NL with 5 runs, spot them with only 4. The AL still wins the game.

posted by chemwizBsquared at 11:14 AM on July 05

In years past, I would have agreed with jersey, but now that the home field advantage for the series is on the line, I'd think if he's been healthy enough to play regularly, he's healthy enough to be there to pinch hit in a crucial situation. He'd probably just have to suit up and rest on the bench, but he'd be available just in case. Seems like the risk/reward balance is in favor of him being ready for duty and hoping it's not needed.

posted by ctal1999 at 11:14 AM on July 05

In years past, I would have agreed with jersey, but now that the home field advantage for the series is on the line, I'd think if he's been healthy enough to play regularly, he's healthy enough to be there to pinch hit in a crucial situation. I'm pretty confident the AL can do it without Manny Ramirez. I just saw the AL kill the NL in interleague play and Manny didn't play on all the AL teams to make that happen. In the ASG thread, there was a lot of hubbub about people getting overlooked and snubbed for positioning - how some very deserving players won't be there. Here's their chance. The risk/reward is for Boston, and only Boston. If he gets hurt or strains his knee further in the ASG, it doesn't kill Chicago's chances at the postseason. It doesn't take Detroit out of the running for the Central. It does directly impact Boston's season and the chance for the postseason running in an already tough division, though and to me, that's all that matters.

posted by jerseygirl at 11:20 AM on July 05

I'm just wondering what the reaction would be if A-Rod said he wasn't attending He would have been booed like he is everytime he doesn't hit a game winning homerun, he's use to it. Like yerfatma said, manny's knee has been a topic for weeks now. Screw the all star game, it's the team and the rest of the season that matters. It wasn't manny who came up with the home field advantage situation.

posted by justgary at 11:24 AM on July 05

I'm just wondering what the reaction would be if A-Rod said he wasn't attending If it was because he was hurt, and Torre valiantly stepped forward and said "He's hurting, I want him to rest those three days... for the team... for the Yankees!" then I imagine ARod would be lauded wildly, perhaps carried out on the field at the ASG by service veterans, Alex wearing the colors of Old Glory, saluting the fans with a Visine tear carefully placed in the corner of his eye, while Big Ears Ronin Tynan sings God Bless America and later, a statue shall be crafted out of marble and erected for him in Monument Park marking the occasion. Just what I imagine would happen.

posted by jerseygirl at 11:32 AM on July 05

How is this so freaking hard to understand? *Manny Ramirez' knee has been bugging him. *He's been replaced in the late innings of blowout wins. *His manager has spoken, literally for weeks, about his knee. *In the interest of his own team and how his performance effects them, he decides to skip a largely meaningless All-Star game. Manny Ramirez is employed by the Boston Red Sox. His only obligation is to them, and if they don't care whether he plays in the ASG, then why do you? Scream about home field all you want, the AL has been handing the NL their ass all season long and likely will in the World Series as well, regardless of where they play.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 11:36 AM on July 05

Even if Manny's knee isn't hurt all that bad, let him bow out if he wants. I think the All-Star game should be fun. If Manny or anyone else doesn't enjoy it, then let them stay home and let someone else who would appreciate it play. I'm sure it is an honor the first year or so, but after a few years, it is probably more like work. As for the homefield advantage, that is MLB's fault for putting too much importance on an exhibition game.

posted by bperk at 11:53 AM on July 05

Just what I imagine would happen. People in glass houses... the Red Sox diehards on this thread seem to be ready to take anybody outside who doesn't see the great valor in Manny's commitment to his team first, despite the fact that Manny has dogged his team far, far more than A-Rod ever has. I'm no big fan of A-Rod, but insulting the Yankees and their fans for having an inflated sense of themselves comes a little hollow from Red Sox Nation. They rest him, they take him out of blowout games early and put Kapler out there, what else should they do? He just said it -- play Ortiz in the field and let Manny DH. If Manny has a bad wheel, why has he not DH'ed a SINGLE game this year?

posted by BullpenPro at 11:56 AM on July 05

People in glass houses... the Red Sox diehards on this thread seem to be ready to take anybody outside who doesn't see the great valor in Manny's commitment to his team first, despite the fact that Manny has dogged his team far, far more than A-Rod ever has. I'm no big fan of A-Rod, but insulting the Yankees and their fans for having an inflated sense of themselves comes a little hollow from Red Sox Nation. BPP, you're making more out of it than initially intended. A lot more. He just said it -- play Ortiz in the field and let Manny DH. If Manny has a bad wheel, why has he not DH'ed a SINGLE game this year? Ortiz < Youkilis at 1B. And previously, there was no need to spell Youkilis at 1B with Ortiz because of JT Snow.

posted by jerseygirl at 12:07 PM on July 05

I think it's fairly obvious that Manny isn't too hurt to continue to play in the field, with occassional spells by better defensive players in late innings. Really, he isn't interested in the All-Star game and hasn't been for years. That's fine. The honorable thing to do would be to show up (at least for the game), and acknowledge the fans that voted him the distinction of being the leading vote getter. No one should be asking him to play. But suggesting that Manny has, in his heart of hearts, anything beyond his own interests, seems to ignore his entire career history and pattern of behaviour. You'd think a "team first" guy would run out a ground ball every once in a while. I mean, he is one of the great right handed hitters of the past 50 years. He's also seems to have the track record of being a completely petulant ass. So, you'll forgive the rest of the baseball loving community for not giving him the immediate benefit of the doubt on this one. He hasn't earned it.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 12:11 PM on July 05

Manny has dogged his team far, far more than A-Rod ever has Each of those guys has had a +900 OPS for years. Neither seems to be dogging it. If you mean off-field, sure, Manny's much more of a distraction. How much, if any, that matters is hard to discern. play Ortiz in the field and let Manny DH. If Manny has a bad wheel, why has he not DH'ed a SINGLE game this year? David Ortiz, career games at a position other than DH or 1B: 0. Manny doesn't DH because Ortiz does. Assuming you were being honest and not begging the question (i.e., you were ignorant and not just being difficult), your suggestion would actually require Youkilis to move to LF, which he has done a few times this year to rest Manny. I'm assuming the team feels it's easier to just sit Manny than move 3 guys around (Ortiz from DH to 1B, Youkilis from 1B to LF and Manny from LF to DH), especially when they're playing well defensively this year.

posted by yerfatma at 12:11 PM on July 05

You guys are all right when you say that he's not obligated to play, but he's been playing the majority of the available innings. I understand the desire to rest him, but are you all really trying to tell me that if he sits the bench and is only called on to pinch hit in a game winning situation (you know, lead run on 2nd and he needs to single or lead run on 3rd and he needs to drive one deep for the tag up, etc.), that he's really going to be in any appreciable danger of additional injury? Or that one AB (if he's even needed) is going to ruin his restful time off? Even if he's called on, he'll need to A) get a hit and get to 1st without blowing out his knee, or B) drive in the run with a deep fly and return to the bench, or C) hit a homer and he can walk the bases. Is it possible he could get hurt? Sure, and that's true of every one of those players. Hell, he could get hurt getting out of the shower tomorrow. The possibility of one AB is a huge health concern? Seriously? Maybe if he was expected to play the field and stretch singles into doubles and make hard slides you'd have a legit arguement, but if they asked him to do that, do any of you think he'd hesitate to tell them to stick it (for health reasons, of course)? It should be perfectly clear that he's only available for Kirk Gibson duty, and he'd have every right to refuse to go beyond that.

posted by ctal1999 at 12:22 PM on July 05

People in glass houses... the Red Sox diehards on this thread seem to be ready to take anybody outside who doesn't see the great valor in Manny's commitment to his team first, despite the fact that Manny has dogged his team far, far more than A-Rod ever has. I'm no big fan of A-Rod, but insulting the Yankees and their fans for having an inflated sense of themselves comes a little hollow from Red Sox Nation. Where did that come from? I wish you would speak of specifics instead of generalities bullpenpro. Where is the arod hate? I don't see it (except at yankee games, which is where my comment came from). Instead we have this thread by an admitted red sox 'hater'. The same member wonders what the reaction would be if Arod did the same thing, which has nothing to do with the topic, except turn it into another yankee/red sox contest. Pot meet kettle. Really, he isn't interested in the All-Star game and hasn't been for years. Exactly. This isn't news. Yet the fans continue to vote him in. Their choice.

posted by justgary at 12:26 PM on July 05

Assuming you were being honest and not begging the question (i.e., you were ignorant and not just being difficult), your suggestion would actually require Youkilis to move to LF, which he has done a few times this year to rest Manny. I was being neither ignorant nor difficult, and my suggestion does not require moving Youkilis to LF. I will make this simple. Look at any lineup the Red Sox have used in their interleague games when they've had to bat the pitcher. Ortiz is at 1B. Youkilis or Lowell at 3B, your choice. Now, put Kaplan in left and Manny at DH in that lineup. Or, put Crisp in left, Harris in CF, and Manny at DH. There are lots of ways to do this. Is it their best defensive lineup? Certainly not, but Manny's no great left fielder with two good wheels -- what does he cost you if he's gimping out there. Plus, you're taking care of one of your high profile players. Plus, your getting your bench players some game time so they don't get rusty. Plus, you're also resting another regular -- Youkilis, Lowell... you could even rest Loretta and play Lowell at 2B if it strikes you to do that (I wouldn't, but you're the manager here). If Manny was really hurting, my guess is that Francona would have drawn up one of these lineups already -- keep Manny in the lineup, allow him to rest his leg a little, etc. Every manager does this when a slugger is hurting. I didn't invent it.

posted by BullpenPro at 12:36 PM on July 05

Sorry, my bad, I read your original as "play Ortiz in [left] field," which isn't in your comment as I go back and read it. Probably because you deleted it.

posted by yerfatma at 12:46 PM on July 05

Where is the arod hate? I don't know. Who said anything about A-Rod hate? I interpreted JG's post (perhaps incorrectly) as attacking the Yankees and their fans for issuing undue accolades at the slightest provocation (read: media hype). I saw that as ironic, since she and others were congratulating Manny for doing what was in the best interest of the team. Here are specific examples: "he's putting his health and the team first" -- posted by jerseygirl at 10:37 AM CDT on July 5 "Like yerfatma said, manny's knee has been a topic for weeks now. Screw the all star game, it's the team and the rest of the season that matters. It wasn't manny who came up with the home field advantage situation." -- posted by justgary at 11:24 AM CDT on July 5 That's what I was reacting to. I wasn't accusing anyone of A-Rod hate. Sorry, my bad, I read your original as "play Ortiz in [left] field," which isn't in your comment as I go back and read it. I find it curious that, in response to what you thought was a suggestion that Ortiz play left field, your reply was "your suggestion would actually require Youkilis to move to LF." That's a lot of left fielders you had me down for.

posted by BullpenPro at 01:03 PM on July 05

Instead we have this thread by an admitted red sox 'hater'. Yes, I DO hate them. But as stated, I always voted for Manny to the All-Star squad. I hate the uniform, that's it, but can still admit Ramirez is probably the best all-around hitter in baseball. I'd pick him on my team for any must-win game. The same member wonders what the reaction would be if Arod did the same thing, which has nothing to do with the topic, except turn it into another yankee/red sox contest. Pot meet kettle. I flat-out stated I'm just kidding, but all the reaction this gets only backs up the idea of how some of the biggest stars the game today has are treated. Their behavior and comments in their past will always make us doubt them, even if they currently have substantiated reasons for what they're doing.

posted by dyams at 01:08 PM on July 05

I heard this morning that this is not the first time Manny has pulled this. Secondly a team player shows up on time for spring training. I can't believe that Manny is being accused of being a team player. Robinson Cano is on the DL hasn't played in a week he's at least going to show up at the game for the fans that voted for him. You mean to tell me that Manny couldn't do the same thing just showing up and tipping his cap for the fans. If that endangers his knee than he should be on the DL quit making excuses for him and whoever is voting for him mine as well stop because he is a selfish man who only thinks about himself.

posted by jtrluva at 01:09 PM on July 05

I find it curious that, in response to what you thought was a suggestion that Ortiz play left field, your reply was "your suggestion would actually require Youkilis to move to LF." That's a lot of left fielders you had me down for. Oh no, wait, you're right, I am right. What the hell is wrong with you?

posted by yerfatma at 01:10 PM on July 05

A little bit of understandable confusion. I'll try to clear it up. Willie Harris is a late inning PR, and that's really it. He's not allowed to start in the OF (or hit for that matter) unless everyone else on the bench dies. Manny's no great left fielder with two good wheels Ramirez: .991 fielding %, 3 assists, 1 error Perennial Gold Glover Ichiro: .994 fielding % with 6 assists, 1 error Gold Glover V. Wells: .981 fielding % with 0 assists, 3 errors

posted by jerseygirl at 01:16 PM on July 05

If Manny doesn't want to play, I've no problem with that. Lord knows I use all of my alloted sick days whether I'm sick or not. But all this talk about Manny and his knee and what's best for the team ... well, I'd wager the other All-Stars aren't feeling like spring chickens either. So, if you cut him a break, don't you have to cut all the others a break? And following that rationale, wouldn't it be better (not to mention safer) to just get rid of All-Star game altogether? Just a thought, or question, as it were.

posted by forrestv at 01:32 PM on July 05

jg, while I agree with the point in abstract (Manny's an ok fielder), those stats don't mean a hell of a lot. I could probably rack up a 1.000 fielding percentage in left field by just standing still and catching only that which was hit right at me. And assists are a function of your arm, your home field and how little respect 3rd base coaches have for you.

posted by yerfatma at 01:38 PM on July 05

Point taken, and clarification appreciated all the same. But I'm glad you got what I was getting at: he's not that bad. He's not winning any Gold Gloves, but he's not Willy Mo in RF either.

posted by jerseygirl at 01:45 PM on July 05

jg, while I agree with the point in abstract, it's Wily Mo Pena. Like Jimy Williams. Or the coyote.

posted by yerfatma at 02:14 PM on July 05

Oh no, wait, you're right, I am right. What the hell is wrong with you? Zima makes a fanciful playground for the devil. I curse these drinkable holidays, and what they do to the fine youth of America.

posted by BullpenPro at 02:29 PM on July 05

You know what's awesome though? Its not Monday. Sure it feels like Monday, but tomorrow is Thursday. Thus, not Monday.

posted by jerseygirl at 02:32 PM on July 05

You drink Zima? I didn't think they let guys join sororities.

posted by jerseygirl at 02:33 PM on July 05

posted by HATER 187 at 02:36 PM on July 05

This is like a political discussion. If you hate Manny and/or the Red Sox, nothing said here will change your mind; If you love Manny and/or the Red Sox, nothing said here will change your mind. Manny won't be at the All-Star Game. Big freakin' deal. If you think this is the straw that breaks the camel's back when it comes to the respect MLB has for it's fans, you're truly blind. yerfatma: it ain't Wily Mo Coyote. Zima? Don't get me wrong, I use mouthwash, too, I just don't drink it.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 02:37 PM on July 05

He's been gone so long, I forgot how to spell his name.

posted by jerseygirl at 02:39 PM on July 05

He ain't heavy, he's Wily Mo.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 02:45 PM on July 05

"Manny won't be at the All-Star Game. Big freakin' deal." But it is, because I'll miss hearing "That's just Manny bein' Manny" when he misses the cutoff man or something along those lines.

posted by mr_crash_davis at 02:46 PM on July 05

But it is, because I'll miss hearing "That's just Manny bein' Manny" when he misses the cutoff man or something along those lines I agree...but I stopped watching the all-star game long ago. Who's gonna play in the Home Run Derby (much better for TV- especially if you mute Chris Berman's incessant "Back Back BAAAAAACK!...GONE!")

posted by chemwizBsquared at 02:56 PM on July 05

This game is not part of Mannys contract he was voted in by the people that spend their money going to the games to see him play. St least he should show up

posted by dlwebb at 03:22 PM on July 05

...and while this debate rages on. Travis Hafner isn't on the team. How about if Hafner replaces Manny, and we let Manny off the hook and save the Red Sox fans from collapsing from their selfless defense of him? The fans also voted in Mark Loretta if he comes down with a hangnail or something we're in for it.

posted by YukonGold at 03:42 PM on July 05

I guess Manny, and the Red Sox, are bigger, and better, than MLB as a whole, and their season far more meaningful than any silly old All-Star game with it's useless tradition and fan appeal. Great sugggestion, YukonGold, let Hafner in, I bet he's chompin' at the bit for some NL ass, and hell, he might even sign an autograph or two, and be gracious about the whole experience, a la Lou Gehrig, Cal Ripken, or hundreds of others who realized the game, nor the team they played for, was not about them. Manny obviously doesn't get it, never has. Let those who feel it is an honor play, not those who feel put out, and, I suggest, never darken your ballot box with his name again.

posted by mjkredliner at 05:02 PM on July 05

Except for the sentence you ended with a period. Maybe he needs time off to menstrate.GO TIGERS!!!!!!!! I guess Manny, and the Red Sox, are bigger, and better, than MLB as a whole, and their season far more meaningful than any silly old All-Star game I can't wait for Web 3.0a. Between this and the flag post, I assume your comments come with violin music.

posted by yerfatma at 05:05 PM on July 05

Naw, yerfatma, some of us believe in stupid crap like patriotism and being loyal to your fans,and being gracious about the chance to do something most people only dream of, which, is better accompanied by John Philip Sousa's music. I believe they are called "Traditional Values", you should try 'em some time.

posted by mjkredliner at 05:10 PM on July 05

I guess Manny, and the Red Sox, are bigger, and better, than MLB as a whole, and their season far more meaningful than any silly old All-Star game with it's useless tradition and fan appeal. You really blew it up to make it sound like Manny just took a shit on Lou Gehrig's headstone and then put rainbow jimmies (sprinkles to some of you) on it, you know that? How do you know Manny isn't gracious to the fans? How do you know he doesn't autograph for little kids? He is and does. On the road and at Fenway. Seen it first hand.

posted by jerseygirl at 05:11 PM on July 05

62 comments and not one for redsoxrgay. Is he sick or something?

posted by graymatters at 05:22 PM on July 05

He's taking a few days off. Something about his knee.

posted by BullpenPro at 05:30 PM on July 05

some of us believe in stupid crap like patriotism and being loyal to your fans,and being gracious about the chance to do something most people only dream of, which, is better accompanied by John Philip Sousa's music. I believe they are called "Traditional Values", you should try 'em some time. The word's "conflation". You should look it up some time. We'll take the discussion of your rhetorical flaws and stumble-riffic verbal flurries as read.

posted by yerfatma at 06:47 PM on July 05

GO TIGERS!!!!!!!! Finally! Yerfatma, you have seen the light!

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 08:20 PM on July 05

He's taking a few days off. Something about his knee. It's not in his contract that he has to post on this thread. He's thinking about the SportsFilter season as a whole, not some stupid link posted by some jackass Yankee fan.

posted by dyams at 08:29 PM on July 05

Magglio Ordonez accepted an invitation to play in the All-Star game, replacing Manny.

posted by dyams at 08:35 PM on July 05

Who said anything about A-Rod hate? I interpreted JG's post (perhaps incorrectly) as attacking the Yankees and their fans for issuing undue accolades at the slightest provocation (read: media hype). I saw that as ironic, since she and others were congratulating Manny for doing what was in the best interest of the team. Here are specific examples: "Like yerfatma said, manny's knee has been a topic for weeks now. Screw the all star game, it's the team and the rest of the season that matters. It wasn't manny who came up with the home field advantage situation." -- posted by justgary at 11:24 AM CDT on July 5 Neither one of those are accolades for manny. They're facts. Forget I said arod hate, here's my version of the thread. Dyams, self admitted sox hater (I know, I know, it doesn't cloud your judgement) makes the post. He then chooses to bring arod into the equation. Why, I have no idea. But since arod and manny are about as different as night and day, trouble ensues. Jerseygirl gives a ridiculous over the top answer to a ridiculous question, and people get offended. The thread goes on to talk about manny missing cutoff men, cliched gripes about him not running out grounders, he hates kids, spits on old people, and shreds every example of 'traditional values' and yet, it's the three red sox fans who are "collapsing from their selfless defense of him"? Are you kidding me? Please, the threads an excuse to hate on manny. Have fun. But, on topic, basically it comes down to either he really is hurt, and then I don't see what the problem is, or he isn't and is 'disrespecting' those who voted him on and desecrating Gehrig's grave, in which case they are free to not vote for him next year. (I myself would love to see manny there. He could return arod's little speech about standing, watching home run balls and tell him to stop with the flipping of the bat.)

posted by justgary at 09:45 PM on July 05

You really blew it up to make it sound like Manny just took a shit on Lou Gehrig's headstone and then put rainbow jimmies [sound of me falling on the floor laughing]

posted by Venicemenace at 09:49 PM on July 05

You are correct, justgary, if Manny is actually hurt, then this whole exercise is moot, but, as has been pointed out, Griffey Jr. and others have seen fit to at least make an appearance when hurt. Manny's past history of big-headedness and being difficult does nothing to lead us to believe that he is actually "hurt", and some of us believe he owes it to the game to "suck it up" and at least be available as a pinch hitter. Say what you may, but Manny could learn from old-timers like Willie Mays, Henry Aaron, etc. about fullfilling obligations and not taking a pass on what is arguably the the greatest honor that fans can bestow upon individual players. The inferences drawn by others about my remarks (shitting on Gehrig's grave, blah blah blah) are their own.

posted by mjkredliner at 10:30 PM on July 05

justgary: That's the second time you have called me out by pulling something I wrote, and the second time your synopsis takes the greatest issue with things that were written by other people (in some cases, things that were written that misrepresented other things that were written). I'm not sure why you are going after me here, but I'll volley. It seems to me you are willing to excuse your own misconception about A-Rod hate, and wave off jerseygirl's "over the top answer" as "jerseygirl being jerseygirl," but when someone comes over the top from the other side you rear up and get all huffy. If you really think "the threads an excuse to hate on manny" and you really want everyone else to "have fun" with it, then why bother posting to the thread at all? For my part, I took exception to all the posturing in defense of Manny and Francona. If Manny is too hurt to go, show me. Show me where Francona has played soft with Manny. He has appeared in 78 of their 82 games to date. In the games in which he has appeared, he has fewer than 4 plate appearances in 5 of them. Fewer than 3 PAs once. He has played left field every one of these games -- not once has Francona given him a break as a DH. Kevin Youkilis has appeared in 79 of their 82 games, and has nine occassions in which he has had fewer than 4 plate appearances. I'm awaiting word on the torn tendon Youk has been gimping around on. Given Manny's history, this story is hard to swallow. Is he entitled to duck the game? Certainly. He doesn't even have to make an appearance. But if he decides to show the fans so little regard, he should take his medicine of abuse. And so should the faithful members of Red Sox Nation who care to jump to his defense -- if you're going to assume the position for Manny, assume it without complaint. And stop making this a Yankee/Red Sox thing. Being a Yankee fan should no more preclude one from making indictments of Manny's behavior than being a Sox fan does so for A-Rod or any other Yankee who might choose to shrug at the fans. If Manny signs autographs, good for him. The All Star Game is the premier fan event in baseball -- not going when you have no readily discernable reason puts Manny in his own boat. You can scold him, or get in the boat with him. Stop complaining because you have to row.

posted by BullpenPro at 11:12 PM on July 05

That's the second time you have called me out by pulling something I wrote The only comments I quoted from you were where you called my comments accolades, which I objected to. The rest was just a mishmash of everything I read. If Manny is too hurt to go, show me. You got me, I can't prove manny's knee is hurt. Honestly, I think it is hurt, I don't think there's a doubt. He's been taken out of the game early several times in the past month. I don't think your stats prove anything but that the best sox lineup includes manny in left. Put manny at dh, ortiz is at first. Lose defense. Put youk at third, lose defense (lowell = gold glove). Is his knee good enough to play and he's using it as an excuse to get out? Good chance. Will the break do his knee some good? Of course. Is it ok with me? You bet. Again, fans choice to choose him. And stop making this a Yankee/Red Sox thing. Maybe we're just reading different threads. Original poster, sox hater. No problem. Original post was fair. Then, from a yankee fan, arod is brought up. Yankee fan comparing arod and manny. And we're off to the races... I understand that people hate manny. I even understand why. I know there's nothing in the world that would convince you manny is really hurt. And it doesn't concern me. But the thread is going from is manny really hurt to he's destroying traditional values. It's a little over the top. If you can't see that, I don't know what to tell you. If you agree with them, then we'll just agree to disagree.

posted by justgary at 12:29 AM on July 06

I guess Manny, and the Red Sox, are bigger, and better, than MLB as a whole, and their season far more meaningful than any silly old All-Star game with it's useless tradition and fan appeal. You're goddamn right it is. I'm a Red Sox fan, have been since I was a kid, and I don't give a rat's ass about what the rest of MLB does. I want the Sox to win the Series every year, and I don't care how many All-Star Games the players have to sit out to do so. let Hafner in, I bet he's chompin' at the bit for some NL ass, and hell, he might even sign an autograph or two, and be gracious about the whole experience, a la Lou Gehrig, Cal Ripken, or hundreds of others who realized the game, nor the team they played for, was not about them. Then, after the game, Hafner can find a cure for cancer. Did you really just use Travis Hafner, Lou Gehrig, and Cal Ripken, Jr. in a comparitive sense? Good Lord, what are you smoking? Manny obviously doesn't get it, never has. Thank God you do, or we'd all be lost. some of us believe in stupid crap like patriotism and being loyal to your fans And some of us believe in patriotism as more than just a buzz word to make a political point, or as a club to beat others' opinions down with. Patriotism = loyalty to fans? When the fuck did that happen? I believe they are called "Traditional Values", you should try 'em some time. When did being condescending become a "traditional value?" And where do you get the right to impose your values on anybody, much less a game that is older, bigger, and more important to more people than you ever will be? You want a little cult of personality to imprint your beliefs on, I suggest you start expanding your family.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 05:25 AM on July 06

wave off jerseygirl's "over the top answer" as "jerseygirl being jerseygirl," but when someone comes over the top from the other side you rear up and get all huffy. No one needs to excuse me. Assuming we're speaking of the ARod/Ronin Tynan comment and just that... It was an over the top, ridiculous, tongue in cheek answer about what they'd do for ARod because I thought it was asked in kind. I know dyams is a Sox hater and a Yankee fan... because he's said as much. He admitted as far as he was instigating asking a hypothetical in what I thought was a funny sort of way, so I replied in kind. I'm certainly sorry if I offended Yankee fans with my goofing around and people with ginormous Dumbo ears for mocking Ronin Tynan and the salad plates he has attached to the sides of his head. I've learned something today. Salad plate ears are a very serious ailment, I realize this now. In a token of goodwill, I have set up a foundation, Bright New Years for Salad Plate Ears (BritNeY SPEars for short) to collect funds for and raise awareness of this horrific infliction. I am proud to say that our first fundraising event will be the JerseyGirl Memorial Clam Shot Celebrity Co-Ed Fast-Pitch Softball Tournament. Tickets available at Ticketmaster. I apologize for not taking this more seriously. I certainly didn't realize our country's moral standards were being compromised and I was offending people!

posted by jerseygirl at 06:34 AM on July 06

I am proud to say that our first fundraising event will be the JerseyGirl Memorial Clam Shot Celebrity Co-Ed Fast-Pitch Softball Tournament. Tickets available at Ticketmaster. Jeez, I hope ARod shows up this year. Patriotism, fan loyalty, Lou Gehrig, and all that.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 06:48 AM on July 06

I'm certainly sorry if I offended Yankee fans with my goofing around The only thing related to the Yankees that has offended me in the past few days is 19-1.

posted by dyams at 07:19 AM on July 06

and their season far more meaningful than any silly old All-Star game with it's useless tradition and fan appeal. I think the regular season is a lot more meaningful than some circle-jerk exhibiton game. Manny's responsability is to the Sox first. If a Yankee was asking out of the game becasue of injury I would be echoing the sentiments of the Sox fans in this thread. I really don't feel qualified to speculate on Manny's injury, but I would imagine he is still starting in the outfield in so many games because the AL East is a tightly contest division and he wants to help out his team. Playing in the All-Star game does nothing to put distance between the Sox and the Yanks/Jays. I can't believe I agreed with the 4 biggest sox fans on this site, I feel so dirty.

posted by HATER 187 at 08:05 AM on July 06

Well that was a wildly entertaining read - now we dance! I can only safely conclude that Manny Ramirez needs to be publicly executed, not going to All-Star games is a threat to the American way of life and Travis Hafner may in fact be Lou Gerhig. And they said school was done for the summer.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 08:13 AM on July 06

JerseyGirl Memorial Clam Shot Celebrity Co-Ed Fast-Pitch Softball Tournament Doesn't this mean you have to die first?

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 09:15 AM on July 06

Baseball is a ridiculously long season. Games practically every day, traveling all over the country, etc. I'm sure many of the guys going to the All-Star game have assorted health-related issues that a few days rest would probably serve very well. As an example, David Ortiz is dealing with a very painful wrist. He says it doesn't bother him when he swings, it just hurts really bad (?). He's going to the game, though, and planning on participating in the home run hitting contest. That's good to see. Bud Selig has also commented he's heard nothing from the Red Sox about this situation, and his feeling is that any player voted in by the fans should attend the game and be present, even if they aren't going to play. This allows another player to be brought on the roster in a playing role (ex. Ordonez), but the injured (voted in) starter still acknowleges the honor (ex. Robinson Cano). Everyone wants to bash the All-Star game like it's a waste of time, but it really is the only one among the four major sports worth watching. The fact there's a significant meaning attached to the game now makes it all the more watchable. I think the only things that really makes people doubt whether or not Manny is really injured is his reputation and the fact he doesn't plan on even showing up. It instead seems like he instead wants to shoot down to Miami for a short vacation. I can't blame him wanting to go home for a few days, but there's probably almost two full rosters of All-Stars that would like to do that, too. If they all did this, the entire idea of the game would cease to exist. Lastly, it's not only Red Sox bashers making an issue of this. Articles say Francona has been getting bombarded with questions from media around the country.

posted by dyams at 09:21 AM on July 06

the fact he doesn't plan on even showing up. It instead seems like he instead wants to shoot down to Miami for a short vacation. Where does it say this?

posted by jerseygirl at 09:26 AM on July 06

jersey girl,take a pill and get some sleep1

posted by sleeper57 at 09:35 AM on July 06

Where do you get this sleep1?

posted by jerseygirl at 09:36 AM on July 06

dyams, i think bringing up Cano is a bit unfair. this is his first all-star game. of course he's going to go. and i'm sure most young players would want go, whether they can play in the game or not. who knows when they'll ever get picked again. but Manny's been there and done that many times. he's not 23 anymore. if he or any other all-star wants to stay home for whatever reason, whether it's because of injury or he just wants to spend time with his family, i really don't give a crap. the only issue i have is that i don't think a player should collect their all-star bonus if he doesn't at least show up to the event.

posted by goddam at 09:49 AM on July 06

Where does it say this? In the story it says that's where he went in '03 when he didn't attend the All-Star game. What I meant was him going home, wherever in Florida that actually is. Many players not participating in the game utilize this time to do just that.

posted by dyams at 09:50 AM on July 06

dyams, i think bringing up Cano is a bit unfair. Actually, today's Boston Globe story that talks about Selig's response seems to indicate he expects players voted in to attend, whether they plan on playing or not, and he didn't seem to differentiate between younger or veteran players.

posted by dyams at 09:53 AM on July 06

In the story it says that's where he went in '03 when he didn't attend the All-Star game. I see. Must be some confusion on my part in reading what you wrote. You just made it sound like that was his stated intention this time to ditch it altogether and head down to Miami next week. Like it was fact or at least written somewhere about this year.

posted by jerseygirl at 09:57 AM on July 06

You got me, I can't prove manny's knee is hurt. Well, then what the hell good are ya? (/grins) Justgary, I know you know this game inside and out. It surprises me a little that you don't see how weird it is that Manny hasn't DHed. I'm not suggesting this as an every day lineup, and yes, I recognize that the defense suffers. But you know that every manager manages for the season, not just a game. You don't always bring in your best reliever because you can't use him every day (despite what Joe Torre thinks). Sometimes you have to operate with Plan B for the good of the team down the road. If your slugger is really banged up, you put him in the DH slot to give him an easy day without sacrificing your offense. Every manager in the AL does this. And this stuff about "Well, we take him out of the game early when it's a blowout?" Every manager in the game replaces his stars with bench players in a blowout, whether they're injured or not. This is not special treatment for Manny, it's common sense. I'm surprised you don't look, objectively, at this situation and scratch your head a little. Back to what you said: you have a history with dyams that pre-dates me, but my experience is that he is a smart poster who keeps things above the belt. He conceded when he mentioned A-Rod that he was stirring the pot -- I don't see your jumping at that issue as being his fault. All disclaimers had been posted. I don't hate Manny. I am trying to look objectively at this situation, but I am admittedly using Manny's quirky behavior in the past as context. Don't lump me in with the Manny haters, or the excessively patriotic. On that: mjk didn't introduce patriotism into this thread. Yerfatma did when he referenced mjk's post in a different thread. And mjk did NOT say that Manny desecrated Gehrig's grave, or anyone else's. All he did was contrast Manny's behavior with players he felt were emblematic of graciousness and respect for the game and its fans. He didn't go over the top with that, in my opinion. Gehrig, Ripken, Mays, and Aaron are pretty good examples of players who would not have shrugged off the ASG and the fans the way Manny appears to be. His comments got overblown in reaction, and I think you were reacting to that and the stuff that got carried over from the flag thread. "Traditional Values" may be a little over the top, but it seems ludicrous to pounce on somebody for holding them like they were the virtues of the Nazi party. JerseyGirl, I'm sorry I didn't get a good read of your post. I wasn't expecting you to be funny -- I thought you spent your whole life's quota of funny when you said, "Honey, hand me that cheetah so I can hold this poster down."

posted by BullpenPro at 10:17 AM on July 06

I don't give a rat's ass about what the rest of MLB does. Apparently. So why watch the All Star Game? I do care, I like to see players honor and respect the game and it's traditions. So shoot me. I want the Sox to win every year Well, one out of 87 ain't bad. I don't care how many All Star games the players have to sit out to do so. I am beginning to see why some people took an inordinate amount of glee in "The Curse". Again, then why would you ever watch "The Midsummer Classic"? Then after the game, Hafner can find a cure for cancer Your speculation, not mine, but, I seriously doubt it. Did you really just use Travis Hafner, Lou Gehrig, and Cal Ripken Jr. in a comparative sense? No, I merely suggested that Travis Hafner MIGHT treat being selected to the All Star team as an honor, not an imposition, I really have no basis in fact for assuming he would. Good Lord, what are you smoking? Marlboro Lights. Nasty habit, but not as intoxicating as what some other people around here are obviously smoking. Thank God you do, or we'd all be lost You, with your many vain references to God, do seem a bit lost. As for Manny getting it, (by "it", I mean being a team player who hustles, is dependable, and respects the traditions of the game) nah, he doesn't. Patriotism=loyalty to fans? When the fuck did that happen? It didn't, my statement was an aside to yerfatma in reference to HIS reference about a post I made earlier, my fault for not clarifying it a bit. Where do you get the right to impose your values on anybody I did not impose my values on anyone, I suggested he try some, much like passing the Armadillo Eggs at a BBQ, "you should try 'em sometime". A southern hospitality kind of deal, if you will. a game that is older, bigger, and more important to people than you will ever be? (Tongue firmly implanted in cheek) As someone who has read many of your previous comments about fairness, anti-discrimination, the virtues of humanity, blah blah blah ad nauseum, I am hurt that you would value a game over another human being. Translation: I could give a shit about you and yours either. You want a little cult of personality to imprint your beliefs on? Naw, all the people of blind faith seem to be in the cult that is Red Sox Nation. I suggest you start expanding your family. Do I LOOK catholic? I don't hate Manny, or anyone else. But, he is a clueless jerk.

posted by mjkredliner at 10:49 AM on July 06

the only issue i have is that i don't think a player should collect their all-star bonus if he doesn't at least show up to the event. Exactly. If he didn't get a bonus for not showing up I really wouldn't give a damn. I won't lie when I say I don't like Manny Ramirez (or most of the Red Sox for that matter) and would much rather see somebody who actually cares about the game, playing in the game. However, if Manny's knee is hurting then he has every right not to play in the game, his interests should be with the BoSox first, AL second but he should at least show up at the game. He was voted in by the fans, he should show some decency and show up for their sake.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 11:47 AM on July 06

Since the Red Sox seem to be on board with Manny not going, and the Red Sox are paying the bonus, I don't see how it's relevant. The bonus is merely additional recognition of the player's contribution to the team. If you are regarded as an All Star, that reflects well on the Red Sox and Manny deserves to be rewarded for that. This is an issue of principles, not money.

posted by BullpenPro at 11:55 AM on July 06

I've got to assume Manny's contract specifies he earns the bonus by making the All-Star team, and that the wording doesn't specify whether or not he actually has to show up and play. But I'll also assume if he signs another contract the wording may be changed a bit (or the team will want it changed).

posted by dyams at 12:02 PM on July 06

On that: mjk didn't introduce patriotism into this thread. Yerfatma did when he referenced mjk's post in a different thread I don't see it. I said, "Between this and the flag post, I assume your comments come with violin music." He replied, "Naw, yerfatma, some of us believe in stupid crap like patriotism and being loyal to your fans,and being gracious about the chance to do something most people only dream of . . . " conflating the All-Star Game and patriotism. While I may have inspired that reaction, I didn't do what you said. Gehrig, Ripken, Mays, and Aaron are pretty good examples of players who would not have shrugged off the ASG and the fans the way Manny appears to be With the exception of Ripken, I have to disagree. Those other players played in a different league, in a different time for a different salary scale. And they didn't have a heck of a lot of leverage.

posted by yerfatma at 12:21 PM on July 06

While I may have inspired that reaction, I didn't do what you said. I'll work backwards: I didn't read his response as conflation. I read it as separate responses to the two issues you introduced, like this -- "...believe in stupid crap like patriotism (my point in the other thread) and being loyal to fans (my point in this thread)..." Since you introduced the two ideas together first, you invited that style of response. The conflation, in my opinion, came from your interpretation, not from what he said. And if I trace back why he even mentioned patriotism, the path leads straight back to your comment about the flag post. That is all I was suggesting. Those other players played in a different league, in a different time for a different salary scale. And they didn't have a heck of a lot of leverage. I stated that poorly. Let me try this: "Gehrig, Ripken, Mays, and Aaron are pretty good examples of players who didn't shrug off the ASG and the fans the way Manny appears to be, and who by all accounts had pretty good attitudes about the game and its fans, which Manny appears to be lacking at times."

posted by BullpenPro at 12:44 PM on July 06

The conflation, in my opinion, came from your interpretation, not from what he said. Fair enough. Gehrig, Ripken, Mays, and Aaron are pretty good examples of players who didn't shrug off the ASG and the fans the way Manny appears to be, and who by all accounts had pretty good attitudes about the game and its fans That doesn't seem any different. Let me reword it: "Gehrig, Mays and Aaron were indentured servants who were obligated to smile in all the right places to get even a small slice of the available pie." Wildly overstated, but an alternate explanation, IMHO.

posted by yerfatma at 01:23 PM on July 06

62 comments and not one for redsoxrgay. Is he sick or something? We have an official sighting.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 01:39 PM on July 06

If we want to start talking about the All Star Game when Mays and Aaron played, how about talking a look at some random box scores: 1965 1966 1967 See a trend there? I do, it's the fact that they played the whole game and they got in the starting lineup because they were the best players, not because internet voting gives teams with the biggest fan bases to prove their strength. Mark Loretta is not an all-star, Jason Varitek is not an all-star this year. Manny Ramirez is but he's gonna get 2 at-bats and hit the bench. You know when I want to see Manny and (more importantly) David Ortiz? In the ninth inning of a 2-1 ballgame against the NL's best closer. That's not gonna happen though. Hank Blalock hit that home run a couple years ago. So Manny can continue to get lambasted, but playing 3 innings does not equal a game. If home field advantage was so important the best 9 guys would play an entire game until the situation arose that called for a different option. btw, I love Varitek but Joe Mauer is hitting almost .400 - he's the all star.

posted by YukonGold at 01:43 PM on July 06

yerfatma: That their station made their obligations more pressing doesn't preclude the notion that under different circumstances they wouldn't have behaved the same way. They are people who have been described as men of high character in and out of the game. Either way, I think mjk was comparing reputations, not circumstances. You could try to argue that Jesus turned water into wine in order to score chicks, but it wouldn't change the fact that He is a strong emblem of faith and virtue.

posted by BullpenPro at 01:55 PM on July 06

yerfatma, IMHO, they were more likely to invoke the words of Ernie Banks, "It's a great day for a ballgame, let's play two!", than to pass up on the honor of being named an All Star. BullpenPro, thank you for conveying my meaning far better than I managed to.

posted by mjkredliner at 02:01 PM on July 06

yerfatma, IMHO, they were more likely to invoke the words of Ernie Banks, "It's a great day for a ballgame, let's play two!", than to pass up on the honor of being named an All Star. Yes, pehaps, but that is not something that can be known. Nostalgia is hardly a convincing foundation for an arguement. I'm sure you'd see all of those players there if they got some of the bonus money that these players do. But if you gave them a choice (which they didn't really have) - would they all go? And if they did, would they be examples of class, dignity and all good wholesome apple pie Americana? If they didn't would they be all ungrateful louts? I'm not so sure that's fair and accurate either. What if I were to say to you that it's glory hounding? That these players who show up to the new-and-stupider All-Star Mall are their to improve their media face time so their endorsement deals can go up? They care little about the honour and more about the money and publicity. Equally unsubstantiated myopic thinking.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 03:03 PM on July 06

Equally unsubstantiated myopic thinking And that's how taglines get started.

posted by yerfatma at 03:29 PM on July 06

Justgary, I know you know this game inside and out. It surprises me a little that you don't see how weird it is that Manny hasn't DHed. I think hater said it better than I, and in fewer words: I think the regular season is a lot more meaningful than some circle-jerk exhibiton game. Manny's responsability is to the Sox first. If a Yankee was asking out of the game becasue of injury I would be echoing the sentiments of the Sox fans in this thread. I really don't feel qualified to speculate on Manny's injury, but I would imagine he is still starting in the outfield in so many games because the AL East is a tightly contest division and he wants to help out his team. Playing in the All-Star game does nothing to put distance between the Sox and the Yanks/Jays. He hasn't DHed, you're correct. I think it showes his injury is more of a concern than an actual problem at this point. I'd like to see it stay that way. I don't think you're a manny hater bullpenpro, or I wouldn't be debating this with you. I'm not claiming the injury is bad enough to keep manny from the allstar game. And yes, as a red sox fan I have no problem being selfish and not minding him staying home. The arod comment seems a bit of a red herring to me. It's like coming into a mac thread and asking what people think of windows. Arod is pretty much the opposite of manny in many people's eyes. One considered the ultimate professional, the other, not. I think you'll find very few fans of both. I would hope manny would at least show up. It would be a nice gesture. But if he doesn't, I'm not going to judge his entire career and worth on that decision, which others (not you), seem to be doing. I see the game as a fun exhibition. If manny doesn't see it as important enough to attend, someone else would be better off in his spot, and fans have the right to vote for someone else next year. You seem to point to manny's past as reasons not to believe him now. I can see the logic. Other's are taking manny's decision not to play and using it as a reason to point to manny as the problem with baseball today. I disagree. MJK is comparing manny to Lou Gehrig. MJK never saw Gehrig play, and it's well known that reporters during that time period protected the fans from negative stories involving their heroes. So you're right, he's comparing a reputation with manny who plays in a time when almost nothing is kept secret. If MJK wants to look at the good old days with it's perfect heroes and curse manny and tell the kids to get off his lawn, good for him. It's just not that big of a deal to me. If arod (and I'm not a big fan of the guy) drops out with an injury, or wants to spend his break visiting his family, I wouldn't bat an eye. I'd rather see players who really want to play in the allstar game.

posted by justgary at 05:30 PM on July 06

I can only hope "skipping" the All-Star game never becomes the norm, or accepted. And no, I'm not absolutely saying Manny isn't legitimately injured. But I, for one, really enjoy the major league All-Star game, and if it becomes commonplace each year for the players the fans voted to start to choose, instead, to take days off, then the game becomes a farce. Yes, there are always very good players that can step in, but it ends up taking a second-choice tone. The fact Manny was the leading vote-getter is what makes this such a big deal, I guess. It's hard to say the guy's hated and/or not respected when that many people choose him.

posted by dyams at 07:41 PM on July 06

Whew. I just reread all the posts and I feel like I've come across the linguistic equivalent of a tag-team wrestling match or a Battle Royale (with cheese.) Where's Mean Gene Okerlund when you need him?

posted by forrestv at 08:26 PM on July 06

Just to wrap all this up, A-Rod has backed out of the Home Run hitting contest due to a problem/concern for his sore groin. As stupid as this sounds, I am serious.

posted by dyams at 09:21 AM on July 07

Well I, for one, am totally outraged. He was honored by the league and the fans to be selected for the HR Derby and for him to not participate is an egregious slap in the face to the fans! How dare he! How dare his groin be sore! WTF BUD SELIG?

posted by jerseygirl at 09:53 AM on July 07

This is why they play the National Anthem when the station signs off at night. So we remember. He probably gets cable or something.

posted by yerfatma at 10:22 AM on July 07

I'm surprised no one has brought up Pedro being placed on the DL. Does he get a free pass because his injury is "official"? Perhaps baseball fans should line up to egregiously slap him in his hip or his groin or somewhere in the general vicinty.

posted by forrestv at 10:52 AM on July 07

Was he even named to the ASG?

posted by jerseygirl at 11:02 AM on July 07

Yeah, I was just hoping to bait some stars and stripes members. Coises, foiled again.

posted by forrestv at 11:46 AM on July 07

How dare he! How dare his groin be sore! Yankees get a pass. JUST KIDDING!! And no, I don't believe Pedro was named to the All-Star team. Pedro going on the DL is, in my estimation, a good use of DL time, with the break coming up, so he will more-than-likely remain healthy for the stretch run. I don't think that other guy we were talking about, what's his name?, will be going on the DL. Good grief, if the Sox ever lost Manny and Papi for a long stretch, that would be a disaster. It would almost be like if the Yankees were to ever lose Sheffield, Matsui, Damon, .....uh......oh yeah. That really happened.

posted by dyams at 11:51 AM on July 07

Good grief, if the Sox ever lost Manny and Papi for a long stretch, that would be a disaster. Losing either would be a disaster.

posted by jerseygirl at 11:58 AM on July 07

I guess Pedro WAS named to the All-Star team this year. I'm kind of surprised. But I'd never think Pedro would ever willingly miss a chance to pitch, especially with the national spotlight on him. With his advancing age and mileage on his arm, the Mets probably should be careful.

posted by dyams at 12:02 PM on July 07

it's Wily Mo Pena. Like Jimy Williams. Or the coyote. No, no, that would be Wile E. Mo Pena.

posted by Amateur at 12:03 PM on July 07

Just to wrap all this up, A-Rod has backed out of the Home Run hitting contest due to a problem/concern for his sore groin. As stupid as this sounds, I am serious. Albert Pujols has backed out as well. He doesn't want to re-aggervate his injury or risk throwing off his timing.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 12:14 PM on July 07

I'm kind of surprised. But I'd never think Pedro would ever willingly miss a chance to pitch, especially with the national spotlight on him Hasn't Pedro skipped the last half-dozen ASGs or so for a trip to sit under the ol' mango tree?

posted by yerfatma at 12:44 PM on July 07

I'm not really sure. That's a good question. Let me know so we can start ripping on him.

posted by dyams at 12:52 PM on July 07

It would almost be like if the Yankees were to ever lose Sheffield, Matsui, Damon, .....uh......oh yeah. That really happened. You're not seriously comparing matsui and damon with ortiz and manny are you? Make it giambi and arod and you have a comparison. As far as damon, the sox lost their leadoff hitter for 40 games, so that's a wash. Besides, one reason the sox were leery of signing damon was he was breaking down. It wasn't a secret.

posted by justgary at 12:59 PM on July 07

I have to think the Home Run Derby is on its way out. It's bad for the players (Bobby Abreu had 18 HRs at the break last year, and only hit 6 after winning the Derby). It messes with their swings, their timing, and their plate approach. Plus, it is going to become an annual reminder of the steroid era slug fests. My guess is that it will be replaced within the next three years, probably earlier (it may even become an issue when the CBA is negotiated). Maybe they will have an Old Timers Game, with reps from every team. That would be more fun. Plus, it can more easily be loaded with positive nostalgia.

posted by BullpenPro at 01:00 PM on July 07

Maybe they will have an Old Timers Game, with reps from every team. In a few years we could have McGwire, Sosa, Conseco, Bonds, Palmeiro, Albert Belle, and John Rocker (just for kicks) all in the same game! Amazing!

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 01:41 PM on July 07

You're not seriously comparing matsui and damon with ortiz and manny are you you conveniently left off sheff. losing both sheff and matsui would probably be more comparable to losing one of your boys.

posted by goddam at 03:15 PM on July 07

You're not seriously comparing matsui and damon with ortiz and manny are you? you conveniently left off sheff. You beat me to it, goddam. Losing Sheff and Matsui means two guys who hit around .300 each and combine for 230 or so RBI during a season. I only threw in Damon to make the point their entire outfield is hurt. I understand that's the way it goes, but for the Yanks to still be only about 3 games out is a fairly good sign. All I hear about is how their pitching sucks, etc. but they've kept themselves in contention. I can't ask for anything more. If you believe the reports, Manny's knee is hurting, as is Papi's wrist. Anything can happen during the second half.

posted by dyams at 05:24 PM on July 07

you conveniently left off sheff. Intentionally, because sheffield is is a real blow. He's a scary hitter. That said, he's 38 years old. He's going to break down. Damon was breaking down before the yankees signed him. Those are choices by the yankee front office. Boston lost coco, who was signed to replace damon for most of the first half, three starting pitchers, pena, and their closer. Youk and pap helped fill those spots. Lester has replaced one of those pitchers That's baseball. Boston and new york have the highest payrolls in the game and should be better abled to cope than any other teams. Part of the game. And before anyone says pena, who cares. Pena in 112 at bats: 6 doubles/ 4 home runs/ 18 rbi/ 321/370/482 Sheff in 123 at bats: 4 doubles/ 4 home runs/ 19 rbi/ 309/372/439

posted by justgary at 05:57 PM on July 07

That said, he's 38 years old. He's going to break down. true. but sheff's injury has nothing to do with his age. i don't think any player who had the kind of collision that he did would come away unscathed. and you're right, that's baseball. i certainly don't expect any sympathy for the the yankees' situation, i don't have much myself. did you make a little edit in the payroll sentence or am i seeing things?

posted by goddam at 06:16 PM on July 07

You're seeing things! Actually I did. My point was clouded by my writing. And sure, age doesn't have to do with every injury, but coming back from injuries at 38 has to be tougher than 28.

posted by justgary at 06:44 PM on July 07

but coming back from injuries at 38 has to be tougher than 28 you're right. but you're a red sox fan and i'm a yankee fan and we must keep nitpicking each others posts until there's another thread about a prima donna all-star with a suspect injury who refuses to go to the mid-summer classic, thereby spitting in the face of the traditional values of decent, non-flag burning baseball fans. it would be un-american to do otherwise.

posted by goddam at 07:15 PM on July 07

God Bless America.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 12:36 PM on July 08

Land that I love.

posted by mjkredliner at 10:21 PM on July 08

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