FanDuel - WFBC

July 05, 2007

CONMEBOL not pleased with U.S.: The South American Soccer Federation feels disrespected that the USA sent a second-tier team to the Copa America, the continents most important tournament. As an invited guest has the USMNT embarassed itself on the field and off?

posted by urall cloolis to soccer at 06:57 AM - 42 comments

I must have missed something in the story. Where is the part about the U.S. embarrassing itself off the field? A bunch of whining about something nobody cares about. I guess the U.S. should feel disrespected because no South American team showed up for the NFL, MLB or NBA playoffs.

posted by Familyman at 09:32 AM on July 05

I'm not pleased with having wasted 4 hours of my life watching two embarrassing matches brought by USA. Really, that alternate team can be beaten by most Ecuadorian D-II squads. Familyman: That is one of the most backwards arguments I have ever seen; please do mention some instance of a South American team being invited to those playoffs.

posted by PublicUrinal at 09:47 AM on July 05

PublicUrinal:You hit it on the spot, when has a south american team or any other team not of those leagues been invited to play or take part of their playoffs.It will never happen.And yes the US. performance was embarrassing losing both games by blow outs.........SAD.........Reminds me of the World Cup.1st round and out....

posted by 4U2NV at 10:06 AM on July 05

Bruce Arena criticized Bob Bradley for the team selection, so these guys are not alone. Even Ray Hudson, who has jumped right to the top of my most irritating announcers list, questioned why at least two or three more regular senior players are not on the squad. The problem was timing, coming days after the Gold Cup, but if you accept the invitation you should come with a team that can compete. I think the biggest problem was having Argentina as the first match. The US played them close to even for over an hour but just couldn't keep up the pace for 90 and once the gate opened... The guys did not seem to recover before playing Paraguay. If the order had been reversed I think we might have at least gotten a draw in the first game and still have a chance to get out of the round with a win in tonight's game. Also, and this is not specific to the US games, but I think CONMEBOL should be more displeased with the referees than the US team. The overall quality has been pretty low with too many bad offsides judgments and not keeping a control over flagrant fouls.

posted by billsaysthis at 10:13 AM on July 05

I love how everyone jumps off the bangwagon as soon as the US Team gets brought back down to reality. Like I've been saying from day one, USA's team is built to beat all the third world countries who suck. The US team plays and qualifies in the CONCAF. Big freakn' deal. They play countries like, Trinidad and Tobago, Guatamala, Panama....I think you people get the point. If they had to play any good European or South American team, they would never qualify for the World Cup. Bob Bradley is no great coach, contrary to what Ray Hudson and his dumb-ass sidekick, Phil say. Ray Hudson is so freakn' annoying and he keeps changing his point of view on everyone as the game goes along. He spent the whole first half of the US's game praising them and saying how great they are and how brilliant Eddie Johnson is but he can't score and the US team can't beat a good team. They don't have the skills. They play on emotion and adrenaline, then they get tired. Then the world class teams beat the crap out of them. What's even funnier about Ray Hudson and his clown sidekick (doesn't know squat about the game and never played) is that they kept saying that the US team brought their C team. Their C team? give me a break. They were missing Beasley and Donovan. Donovan is the only decent player out of the two. Beasley has no skills to beat anyone or dribble past anyone. He and Donovan have quickness. As soon as you shut him down or force him into the corner (Coby Jones was famous doing this), you shut him down completey and their scoring chances are gone. What's even funnier is that most people seem not to realize that some of the better teams are missing their best players as well and they are playing good enough to win and move on. Yet, everyone and Bradly is making excuse for the teams poor performance. Ray Hudson mentioned that even though the C team is here and playing to gain some experience for the 2010 World Cup. Some of these guys won't be around in three years to play and what experience will they learn from....losing. Bruce Arena is a clown as well. He made a comment about how he built the team that Bradley took over. What a jerk. He gets axed and then he bad mouths the coach and team. Alot of people seem to forget that Bora made the US team contenders years ago and brought them back into the international spotlight when he coached, Lalas, Wynalda, Jones and the rest of them. Once he established a decent team, then he they replaced him with an american college coach. Yet Arena seems to forget how he took over someone else's hard work and success at building a foundation that has transformed in the US soccer we have today.

posted by koolhandvuk at 10:47 AM on July 05

This is a tourney that doesn't count, so why not give the younger players a shot at getting a cap and some experience? A tourney atmosphere will generate more pressure on the youngsters than a simple international friendly. The only thing truely embarrassing has been their inability to finish. At times, they have done a nice job of maintianing possesion, switching, and building the attack out of the opposing third. Bradley did the important job two weeks ago - he got the boys to win the Gold Cup and qualify for the Confederations Cup.

posted by FonGu at 11:01 AM on July 05

PublicUrinal, exactly my point. South America has not even put together a team worthy of even being invited so should the U.S. feel even more disrespected? At least the U.S. put together a team worthy of being invited. But let's not forget my main point, nobody in the U.S. is going to lose sleep over this supposed embarrassment.

posted by Familyman at 11:21 AM on July 05

kulhandvuk: I think more than Donovan and Beasley are missing. Tim Howard, Carlos Bocanegra, Pablo Mastroeni, Brian Ching (who for my money should be ahead of Twellman), Clint Dempsey, Steve Cherundolo, Bobby Convey (injured) and Jonathon Spector are all players who would make a difference. Plus, I don't understand why Keller is in goal; not just the clear deterioration in skills but he hardly represents the youth rationale. I would have taken Howard since this is close season for him and because he'd get the chance to develop communication with this set of defenders. The bigger issue for me on American GKs is that, looking over the player pools on ussoccer.com, I don't see a strong #2 for Tim in place for the run up to 2010 unless Brad Guzman or Zach Wells really pick up their games. As for the scheduling/quality of opponents issue, to a large degree we're bound by geography. Most national team competitive matches are either part of World Cup qualifying or regional association championships and those are always going to be against our neighbors; I doubt any would see friendlies as terribly meaningful player development opportunities though I'd like to see us schedule more of ours against better teams anyway.

posted by billsaysthis at 11:53 AM on July 05

I would have taken Howard since this is close season for him and because he'd get the chance to develop communication with this set of defenders. Everton might not have released him. Clubs weren't obliged to release US players for Copa since it's not their regional tournament.

posted by goddam at 12:04 PM on July 05

The EPL season is over now. Howard would not need to be released to play, only during their season would he need permission. Bradley has made some interesting decisions during the Copa. Did anyone else notice that Ben Olsen was the best US player in each of the first two games. He played relentless defense. He got counterattacks started, provided many quality crosses and kept great posession. Bradley took him out of both games with the score tied. Soon afterward each game turned into an old fashioned ass-whipping. I thought he might have learned after the first time. Will he do the same thing tonight or will he even start Olsen?

posted by urall cloolis at 12:25 PM on July 05

Familyman: First and foremost, there isn't an football league in any of the South American countries, as far as I'm aware -- nor is there an international tournament that can serve as a meter. In terms of the NBA, the best parallel would be the FIBA Americas Championship, played every two years. The last championship (2005) saw Brazil get the gold and Argentina the silver; Venezuela beat the USA team for the bronze. Thus all of the top honors were given South American countries. In baseball, the closest I could find was the World Baseball Classic, where there was only one South American invitee -- Venezuela. And it fell in the same stage as the United States. Before you make such bigot-sounding remarks, I would encourage you to check the facts. As for the argument that the U.S. wanted to try new talent, I can subscribe to that and understand. But as such, CONMEBOL should still feel disrespected that their tourney was selected for the experiment. And if I'm CONMEBOL, I consider inviting another country in the future to make the disappointment apparent. This isn't about the U.S. playing poorly -- it is about the U.S. truly fielding an inept team. On the comment of the Argentina game, Argentina played very uninspired footy. It had nothing to do with the United States' stifling defense or powerful attack. And their subsequent play has been marred by a lack of ability, period. While not having a lot of time to practice together certainly holds a large cloud over their heads, they have simply been unable to string anything better than three touch passes for a missed shot.

posted by PublicUrinal at 01:11 PM on July 05

I agree that Tim Howard is a better player than Keller at this point and time. I don't understand the logic behind Bradley leaving Howard out of this tournament if he wants his younger players to gain some experience and grow as a team. Keller will not be on the US team three years from now. He has made statements that he is seeking a contract for another year or two at a top level team. I guess that means no MLS? .... just kidding. He did say top level league and not a college gloried league. I guess Bradley was doing him a favor and payback for years of service to allow Keller to play and showcase himself for any team out there that might be looking for a keeper. Urall Cloolis: I agree with you that Ben Olsen played good. He was too tired to finish the games. My previous comments stated that the US team played hard and on adrenaline being put on a stage with some higher quality teams. However, they don't have the skills to finish and don't have the energy to fight off better teams for 90+ minutes. I never look at the first half of any US game and say they will beat anyone. They always seem to play well in the first half against higher ranked teams. The second half is another ballgame. The better teams come out and play with adjustments to their game. Unfortunately, the US team doesn't have that luxury when you are limited on talent and player's experience.

posted by koolhandvuk at 01:19 PM on July 05

By the way, did I mention that Ray Hudson and his sidekick are a couple of morons? That and the horribly broken english speaking mexican commentator. This is the worst thing about watching the games on GOLTV. We the audience do not get to choose who we want to commentate and call the games but a few inept morons.

posted by koolhandvuk at 01:26 PM on July 05

Typical ignorant redneck ranting! Comment icon posted by acelp99 at 12:31 PM CDT on July 5 It's good to see if all else fails we can still fall back on name calling. Maybe you meant to address this to acelp99? Before you make such bigot-sounding remarks, Comment icon posted by PublicUrinal at 1:11 PM CDT on July 5

posted by Familyman at 01:28 PM on July 05

Typical ignorant redneck ranting! where did the "redneck" come from? Any idea if Familyman is even from the south? Or a rural area? Or is this just some general slam where you lump everyone who says something you don't agree with into a stereotype and add a slur to it? (which sounds very "redneckish" to me in and of itself)

posted by bdaddy at 01:33 PM on July 05

It seems to me that the rationale of bringing Keller with such a young team is to put a voice of reason and experience in the leadership position. Keller has vast experience at many different levels and, in theory, should be able to direct the backfield and provide insight that only experience can bring. I also agree that Howard is a better keeper at this point in time. However, the question remains, would he be able to hold together a solid line (made up mainly of inexperienced players) during a route? I think a stablizing force during this meaningless tourney would do more for player development. Howard will learn to communicate with the youngsters as the slowly work their way into the first line.

posted by FonGu at 01:38 PM on July 05

Typical ignorant redneck ranting! posted by acelp99 at 12:31 PM CDT on July 5 acelp99, maybe you should try to add some substance to your input instead of hurling insults at people.

posted by FonGu at 01:41 PM on July 05

This is a tourney that doesn't count, so why not give the younger players a shot at getting a cap and some experience? Well, the other thing to consider is that some of their star young players are currently playing in the U-20 World Cup, close to home in Canada.

posted by mkn at 01:55 PM on July 05

Familyman: To clarify, I said "bigot-sounding remarks" because you appear to be a long-time member and I cannot recall you ever acting in a manner classifiable as a bigot, and will thus not assess you so. But a statement lumping an entire continent into a baseless argument generally fits the criteria. As such, I'm hoping your position can be substantiated and we can have a sound discussion, sans name calling.

posted by PublicUrinal at 02:25 PM on July 05

The EPL season is over now. Howard would not need to be released to play, only during their season would he need permission. As far as I understand, you're wrong. Since this is not a regional tournament for the USA (as opposed to the Gold Cup, which was), the clubs are under no obligation to release their players, regardless of whether they're in season or not. For the European players, especially, their season ran for 9 months, and then they played in the Gold Cup. I think they deserve at least a little rest before getting back to training camp in the next few weeks.

posted by blarp at 02:33 PM on July 05

Euro teams usually only block a move to a National Team call up due to overwork during a season, injury or an upcoming club match. I am sure that Everton would have been delighted for Howard to gain more international experience in preparation for the next EPL season. Everton did not play in Champions League, UEFA Cup or advance far in the league Cups, so no need to worry about fatigue. It is all a moot point however, because the fact is Everton did not block the move because Howard was not on the roster.

posted by urall cloolis at 02:49 PM on July 05

Familyman: To clarify, I said "bigot-sounding remarks" because you appear to be a long-time member and I cannot recall you ever acting in a manner classifiable as a bigot, and will thus not assess you so. But a statement lumping an entire continent into a baseless argument generally fits the criteria. As such, I'm hoping your position can be substantiated and we can have a sound discussion, sans name calling. Maybe it's just me, but what on earth is "bigot-sounding" about Familyman's post? Or I guess you could mean bigotted as far as intolerant of someones beliefs on the importance of soccer, but when I hear "bigot" I think ethnicity/race/religion and I can't draw that into anything he said. As far as I can tell he was just trying to state that the US generally doesn't care about soccer and was not-so-subtley suggesting that we really just care about football/baseball/basketball, which I guess makes him a soccer bigot :-)

posted by bdaddy at 03:15 PM on July 05

I am sure that Everton would have been delighted for Howard to gain more international experience in preparation for the next EPL season. I disagree. Everton would be at a real disadvantage if he got injured in the 3+ games that he'd be playing in.. that far outweighs any experience he'd get.

posted by blarp at 03:55 PM on July 05

I disagree. Everton would be at a real disadvantage if he got injured in the 3+ games that he'd be playing in.. that far outweighs any experience he'd get. Playing against very good international teams is the best way to gain experience, seasoning and improve. I am quite certain that Everton would rather have a more seasoned Tim Howard than one that has no international experience. If that were the case there would be no international games for 9 months as no club would release players. It is a professional sport, risk of injury is a given. Walking on eggshells and assuming every game will lead to injury is absurd. A club had better have a good reason (coming off injury, a big match the same week, etc...) for appealing national team duties or it would not be granted.

posted by urall cloolis at 04:20 PM on July 05

All the stories from the Everton side are already calling this off-season Howard's "marathon", so I'm guessing the team would not be delighted to have him playing in yet another tourney. They might not mind, but I don't think they'd be excited to have their starting keeper play all the way through the off-season.

posted by yerfatma at 04:27 PM on July 05

bdaddy, thank you for clarify the point that I seemed unable to communicate, even though it seems you understood it perfectly, so maybe it wasn't my ability to communicate at all? Although I've been exonerated from the charge of "bigot-sounding" and ignorant redneckedness I still do not believe I will be fully rehabilitated until I join a soccer riot. PC Disclaimer, not all soccer fans are to be grouped with the above soccer riot comment, any similarity is strictly coincidental.

posted by Familyman at 05:16 PM on July 05

I think we are getting a bit off subject. I respect your opinions yerfatma and blarp although I do not agree. Simple fact is Howard was not put on the roster so it makes everything else simply speculation. Why did Bob Bradley decide to use this tournament as a tryout for the MNT? 16 players with less than 10 caps...several that had NO caps. The US was invited to play in this highly competitive tounament to do what? COMPETE! By bringing the squad he did he was mocking the tournament and putting out a substandard team, not exactly why the US was invited. PublicUrinal has the right answer- CONMEBOL should find another team to invite next time, one that will respect the competition and put their best team out on the pitch, not one that takes it lightly or use it as an experiment.

posted by urall cloolis at 05:33 PM on July 05

If CONMEBOL is really "upset" by the USMNT selection we sent, they are fools. They knew when they invited us that this was going to happen - the USSF made no secret about this. CONMEBOL knew, and invited us anyway. Everyone talks like it is some kind of "insult" not to send our best team, yet this isn't our regional tournament, it is theirs, and CONMEBOL nations send second string squads to Copa America all the time. Not just Argentina and Brazil, either, but the lower quality nations as well. So why is it somehow a duty of the USA to send its very best and to sacrifice its players for a regional tournament that means nothing to us and gains us nothing if we win it? It would be nice if MLS wasn't playing during Copa America, but it is. Two months is too long for an MLS team to lose a top player. Releasing players for Gold Cup was long enough; we needed to win Gold Cup because it is our regional tournament, and winning it gets us a spot in the Confederations Cup in South Africa in 2009, excellent preparation for World Cup in South Africa in 2010. And the European clubs don't have to release US players for Copa America as it is not our regional tournament. The EPL and other leagues in Europe are not in season, but their club training camps are. We have a lot of players who need to earn starting positions on their clubs, sometimes new clubs (ie, Beasley at Rangers). Spending the entire summer playing international tourneys does not help their careers. We cannot overuse our best players that way; better to give the younger and more inexperienced players a chance. Finally there is the U-20 World Cup going on at the same time right now. This Cup is, frankly, much much much much more important for us than Copa America ever will be. We beat Poland 6-1 the other day and Freddy Adu got a hat trick. These players would also have been wasted had we sent them to Copa America instead. Let them have a shot at winning a title that means something. If CONMEBOL is really upset at us, they can go screw. They spent a decade inviting us, we turned them down for the same reasons that we are now being criticized for; we finally accept, with the same restriction in place on the kind of players we could send that we have always had since MLS started. No one in CONMEBOL should act surprised; they knew exactly what kind of team we were going to send. Let them invite Costa Rica or Honduras again instead, if they are so snippy about "respect". See if that really "improves" their tourney. This is one of those deals where we are screwed no matter what we do. Everyone is primed and ready to take "offense" at what USSF does, no one wants to listen to or consider the problems they have to deal with.

posted by dave2007 at 08:29 PM on July 05

Who is this we you keep speaking of, dave2007?

posted by tommytrump at 08:58 PM on July 05

.....and why is it when non-member nations get invited to play in CONCACAF Gold Cup, and they send their second string teams, it isn't considered an "insult" to CONCACAF? Don't give me that crap about Copa America being a "big, respectable, historical" tourney, because based on that logic, CONMEBOL teams should never be sending their second string teams to Copa America, yet they do that all the time. Does this ever happen in Euro Cup? The double standards here are just ridiculous. If CONMEBOL doesn't want to invite us back in future, that would be fine with me. But I don't want to hear any more hypocritical whining about why we didn't accept CONMEBOL's invivations circa 1996-2006. This is why USSF didn't accept the invites for the past decade; now you know. You didn't believe USSF then. Now you do. Or you should. The USMNT simply does not have the resources to play in three different international tourneys within the space of two months, especially not during the middle of MLS's season. Our national team does not have the depth of talent to pull something like that off. So accept the facts and move on.

posted by dave2007 at 09:10 PM on July 05

"Who is this we you keep speaking of, dave2007?" USSF/USMNT. And fans thereof. It wasn't that difficult to figure out from the context. I don't have the patience to play these games of rhetorical questions.

posted by dave2007 at 09:11 PM on July 05

And before you ask, "you" are "you guys who don't get it". I could add "you know who you are", but, obviously, you don't. Insert simley face here: :-)

posted by dave2007 at 09:16 PM on July 05

Dave- maybe I have been sleeping but what is this third international tournament in the space of two months? If you are speaking of the U-20 Cup, they are not involving the same players. Lets not get ahead of yourself. Only one player (Bradley) was on the U-20 and the Gold Cup squad. The fact is if the USMNT (I didn't say WE since neither one of us actually play on the team) didn't want to compete or felt overburdened than they should have turned down the invitation. It is not like a gun was put to their heads. Finishing 12th out of 12 teams is a great accomplishment, almost as good as when they placed last in the World Cup in 2002. It was painful to watch this team (try to) play soccer. It was disgraceful to me as a fan, player and coach. The "progress" made by the younger players doesn't add up to crap since the majority will grab these caps and never be on the team in the future. There is no way our national pool is so great that we have over 50 quality international players (the amount Bob Bradley has used in his short reign).

posted by urall cloolis at 09:52 PM on July 05

Enough of the ball-busting over the use of "we" to mean "the team I support and my fellow fans." Obviously it's imprecise, but do you guys really think that Dave believes himself to be a member of the USMNT? It's common for fans to refer to their favorite teams in this way.

posted by Venicemenace at 12:08 AM on July 06

urall, you either didn't read what Dave wrote or are willfully ignoring it.

posted by yerfatma at 06:30 AM on July 06

If Eduardo Deluca and CONMEBOL don't like our lineup he should take a PanAm to Chicago, get a cab to 18th Street and Prairie Avenue, talk with the Federation, and interview for a job. Because the last time I checked, the Manager gets to pick his own 11, and those selections are not always chosen based on overall talent. Is Deluca chastising Dunga for fielding a team that got ran off the pitch by Mexico? Is he calling out Kaka or Ronaldinho for no-shows? Does he fault Argentina for only playing Tevez in stoppage time? Fuck Eduardo Deluca. We were invited(which is why MLS and EPL teams can forbid their players attendance). If they don't like our team, don't send the invite and we will see how many grounds get sold out to watch Uruguay v Chile. He will find out the exclusive tv rights he sold to GOL tv will get cut in half, maybe more. Way too many half-assed US soccer fans in here. Our game against Argentina was terrific. We don't have a finisher and there were some awful substitutions but an overall good performance that got out of hand in the last 10 minutes. We were never gonna beat the Argentines. But that's OK neither will 95% of the planet, nor any team in this tournament. We did however find some fresh blood. Olsen, Conrad (sans 3 seconds of temporary brain loss), Demerit, Feilhaber got a chance to show they should be first 11 possibilities. Bradley's plan was to take 21 kids with virtually no international experience and find 4 or 5 potential starters for 2010. He done that.

posted by r8rh8r27 at 10:13 AM on July 06

Actually Dunga chose both Ronaldinho and Kaka for the Brazil team. They both asked to sit out due to overwork. They both played well over 50 games in the last season alone and have had NO time off since the summer of 2004 when they both had about six weeks of not playing. Even though they were granted permission to take the Copa off Dunga DID chastise them saying the old school Brazilians would play every day of their lives for the team. Tevez not starting is not Argentinas attempt to rest him. He is the third choice in a two forward system. He will start now that Crespo is out. I can see all the points made about the US lack of bringing an A-side. I agree with some points, but call me old school- when you are playing an international match you simply play to win and bring the best ammunition to do so. Training camps are where you try new faces. How about bringing a mixed squad to the Copa. The less experienced players were doomed for failure from the outset. How about mixing in 3-4, maybe even 5 inexperienced players to go along with 6 or 7 regulars? That way at least the younger ones have some stability and leadership on the pitch and we can see how they do with regulars. Danny Califf as USMNT Captain...Enough said!

posted by urall cloolis at 01:41 PM on July 06

urall, I understand the Brazilian situation, and didn't say anything contrary to your post regarding it. He is the third choice in a two forward system. That's right, a manager's choice. IMNHO Tevez is the most on-form player on Earth at the moment. He singlehandedly kept the Hammers up. He is in the middle of a bidding war waged among the top teams in all three big-boy football leagues in Europe. He is in a position to turn down a 30 million pound transfer and 100K a week. Yet, his MANAGER has the power to play him behind Crespo - who is on a free transfer. There is no doubt in any thinking person's mind that Carlos Tevez is one of the best 11 footballers in all of Argentina, but it is a managers choice. Only he knows what is best for his team, and he has a plan. Danny Califf as USMNT Captain...Enough said! No, it is not that simple. Training grounds do not show how a person is going to react when down 1-nil on hostile ground. It doesn't show who still has fire after living in a hotel room for 4weeks playing a match every three days. It doesn't show how you will play when the #10 is hurt and your center back just got sent off. Maybe Bradley wanted to know who NOT to take in the future? If that was his objection, he seceded. I doubt Mapp will ever get to suit up for his Country again. After these games he will have a firm grasp of who goes where on a 40 man roster. The US made it very clear that winning the Gold Cup was a priority weeks before Copa AM. We knew all the guys on European teams were gonna opt out of Copa Am or be pulled by their clubs. We knew Landycakes wanted to stay home for the Bex 'globetrotting' tour. Eduardo Deluca is just America Bashing because he can and people will applaud him for it. Until he criticizes obvious errors in the manager's selections of other teams, he should keep his crap-hole shut. And until Bradley losses more games than he wins or shows incompetence, WE as American fans, should give the guy a little slack.

posted by r8rh8r27 at 03:05 PM on July 06

Landycakes wanted to stay home for the Bex 'globetrotting' tour. We may not agree on everything...but that statement alone is PRICELESS! I am starting to soften my disgust now that it is all over and I do not have to watch the substandard team any more. I hope Bradley knows what he is doing and I will give him the benefit of the doubt...for now.

posted by urall cloolis at 04:41 PM on July 06

By the way, are any of the rest of you shocked that Jorge Lariondo still has his FIFA referee license after the absolutely disgusting job he did in Germany last summer? I thought I recognized his name during one of the first round matches but tonight he worked Brazil-Chile and, other than all the goals the Sun Kings made, his presence was the most surprising thing.

posted by billsaysthis at 10:04 PM on July 07

I presume you mean the US-Italy game. In which case, as FIFA said they thought he'd done a decent job and gave him one of the semi-finals to officiate, I'd have to go with not shocked.

posted by Mr Bismarck at 02:51 AM on July 08

I did, MrB, though not exclusively and FIFA can kiss my red white and blue posterior.

posted by billsaysthis at 02:16 PM on July 09

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