Sorry Hal, I did understand and I originally wrote "I'm with you" and then managed to delete it on preview. My reply was intended as a "got your bac, Hal" sort of thing. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I thought you were spot on - and think you are spot on again here.
Where would Palmeiro fit in Bill Simmons' Hall of Fame pyramid?. Level 1 Ground floor of The Pyramid ... designated for marginal guys who were considered "Borderline Hall of Famers," either because of the Rice Factor (great career, not long enough) or the Sutton Factor (very good for a long time, rarely great) ... anyone voted in simply because they reached a benchmark (400 homers, 300 wins, etc.) would be thrown in here ... you could even include players who broke significant individual records (Don Larsen, Roger Maris, Johnny Vander Meer, etc. -- though, personally, I say no). Modern "L1" examples: Carter, Sutton, Phil Niekro, Gaylord Perry, Gossage, Rice, Morris, Catfish Hunter, Wade Boggs, Tony Perez, Lee Smith, Rollie Fingers, Tom Glavine (if he keeps going strong). You get the idea. Level 2 Second floor of The Pyramid ... not quite as cluttered, not as much space ... reserved for guys who were definitely Hall of Famers, but didn't quite possess a Level 3 rsum for one or more of the following reasons: Their team never won a World Series. Something was missing from their career totals. They never enjoyed an outrageously good single season. Somebody else played their position during their time who was better. Their career was shortened by injury and/or rapidly declining skills. Modern "L2" examples: Robin Yount, Carlton Fisk, Dave Winfield, Willie Stargell, Rod Carew, Jim Palmer, Ryne Sandberg, Kirby Puckett, Carl Yastrzemski, Paul Molitor. Level 3 Reserved for the "No-Doubt-About-It" Hall of Famers ... these guys were undoubtedly the best at their position for years and years, with all the requisite "rsum" stats to match ... unfortunately, there's a distinct, crucial difference between Level 3 and Level 4 (explanation coming). Modern "L3" examples: Joe Morgan, Ozzie Smith (more on him later), George Brett, Roberto Clemente, Brooks Robinson, Rickey Henderson, Tony Gwynn, Robbie Alomar, Eddie Murray, Greg Maddux (assuming he keeps cruising along), Randy Johnson (ditto), Dennis Eckersley (a unique case, but definitely). Level 4 These are basically "L3" guys, only there's something just inherently "greater" about them. Some possible indications: Do you have to consider them in any "best of all-time" discussions? Did they have transcendent games or memorable moments? Did they hit 500 homers, get 3,000 hits or win 300 games? Were they just dominant at times? Will you always remember watching them play, even when you're 80 years old and peeing on yourself? Modern "L4" examples: Reggie Jackson, Steve Carlton, Sandy Koufax, Tom Seaver, Bob Gibson, Cal Ripken Jr., Nolan Ryan (a great argument here -- some don't even consider him a Hall of Famer), Mark McGwire, Barry Bonds (maybe even a little low for him, as scary as that sounds), Roger Clemens (it hurts, but it's true). (Note: Pete Rose should be an "L4 guy," Dwight Gooden should have been an "L4 guy," and Darryl Strawberry could have been an "L4 guy." None of them make it ... although Rose should be here eventually because Ty Cobb's in here, and Rose couldn't have been more of a jerk then Cobb. Also, other than Clemens and Bonds, out of the veterans playing right now, Junior Griffey, Maddux and maybe Randy Johnson have the best shots at Level Four. It's too early to tell about anyone else.) Level 5 Take a deep breath. Level 5 is the top of the pyramid, literally and figuratively. You can rattle the L5 guys off the top of your head: Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Ty Cobb, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Joe DiMaggio, Grover Alexander, Ted Williams, Mickey Mantle, Jackie Robinson, Rogers Hornsby, Stan Musial, Walter Johnson, Cy Young, Christy Mathewson and Honus Wagner. Sixteen in all. That's it. That's Level 5. The best of the best. The Pantheon. __________________ I see Palmeiro as being anywhere from Level 1 to 4.
I think you have to put Clemens and Bonds at level 5 now. The number of MVPs/Cy Youngs and their counting stats put them well ahead of every single one of the other L4 guys you mention, and in 20 years people will forget how much the media hated them and will realize their greatness at the top level. Also interesting: Number of "Pantheon" playing in each decade: 1890s - 2 (Young and Wagner begin their careers) 1900s - 5 1910s - 8 1920s - 6 1930s - 6 1940s - 4 1950s - 7 1960s - 4 1970s - 2 (Aaron and Mays retire) 1980s - 0 1990s - 0 2000s - 0 I think this might be a case of "it was better back in the days". To suggest there haven't been any players since 1973 (or started their careers since 1954!) that have been Pantheon level is bit...odd. Add in Clemens and Bonds, you add 2 to the 1980s, 1990s and 2000s. I also think you have to consider Mike Schmidt (3 MVPs, 10GG, 500HR) as a potential L5 candidate (covering 1970s and 1980s as well). I'd put Palmeiro as a L3 guy, but at the same time I'd bump Morgan up to L4. And if Pete Rose had kept his nose clean, I think people would have elevated him to L5 (even though he's an L4 player). And where is Lefty Grove!?
I didnt see you mention him-and its off the topic a little-but where would Harmon Killebrew fall into this pryramid?-I am thinking L4 or L5--or maybe I am all wet
On his plaque, it should read, "Very good for a long time, but never great ... At some point, when "long time" becomes "unbelievably long time," shouldn't the adjective move from very good to great? Palmeiro strung together nine 100+ RBI, 35+ HR seasons in a row. Only three Major Leaguers had a longer string of 100 RBI years: Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, and Al Simmons. No one had a longer string of 35 home run years: Jimmie Fox ties him with 9. The guy's in elite company, whether or not baseball's media elite ever recognized it.
Another method of determining a player's HOF viability is to try the "Keltner Test" (invented by Bill James in his 1985 Abstract). 1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball? 2. Was he the best player on his team? 3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position? 4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races? 5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime? 6. Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame? 7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame? 8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards? 9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics? 10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame? 11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close? 12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame? 13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant? 14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way? 15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?
OK, grum, in my book he scores 4 of 15 on that list, but I do think he should be first ballot. (5,7,8,15)
Consistently good and not a dirtbag...I'll settle, Cooperstown or no Cooperstown.
