FanDuel - WFBC

June 16, 2005

Playing While White: Steve Nash's MVP selection reaffirms that race has everything to do with sports at every juncture, not just when a white guy wins an award.

posted by Marla Singer to basketball at 08:56 PM - 41 comments

"Yes, Nash is white," Bass asserts. "He's also six-foot-nothing, he likes to pass as much as he likes to shoot, and he accepted his MVP award with his teammates rather than alone. But he's also Canadian and seems to have a relatively progressive social conscience. He is not the standard NBA poster child. Rather, he wears a shirt to the 2003 All-Star Game that says 'Shoot baskets, not people' in protest of the U.S. military action in Iraq. And two years later he wins the MVP award? It was only years earlier that Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf objected to the national anthem on the grounds of his Islamic beliefs and was summarily suspended from the league. Why hasn't anyone asked about that? Is Nash allowed leniency on his antiwar stance because he's white?" Um, maybe because Nash hasn't broken any league conduct rules while he followed his conscious. Maybe. Discussions on racism do nothing but fuel it. America's problem with racism is that it is still overly discussed and that America in general has a victim mentality among its general population. That is not to say that racism isn't bad or that it doesn't exist but simply to say that maybe it is being over-analyzed and has become a self-feeding fire of sorts. We are more alike than we are different and most of the differences are cultural if you can look past the superficial. The cultural melting pot is what makes America great Indeed, it was Larry Bird himself who put the Great White Hope myth to rest with the controversial comment that pro hoops "is a black man's game, and it will be forever. I mean, the greatest athletes in the world are African-American." This just in: Men and women are different. We need to celebrate our differences more and bitch about them less. Does this mean that any of us are limited in potential? Only if you think so.

posted by geekyguy at 11:56 PM on June 16

Marla, interesting article, but your FPP is missing a couple of quote marks. geekyguy: Discussions on racism do nothing but fuel it. America's problem with racism is that it is still overly discussed I'd be more willing to believe that that was true if I felt that the average American could tell you who Emmett Till was, explain why Muhammad Ali went to prison, state when the US Navy formally ended segregation and made all ranks and ratings open to people of all races, list the major points of the Dred Scott decision, explain the Bible-based rationale for the enslavement of Africans, or date and place this photo. If America's problem with racism is that it's still overly discussed, any American ought to be able to rattle these answers off without a second's thought or any help from Google. Discussions on racism fuel racism when they're not discussions but demagoguery, and when people come to them prepared not to listen and have their minds changed, but to batter down "the other side" and its arguments regardless of their truth and merits. America's problem with racism today is that we're coming off decades of more heat than light, and we'd rather wallow in intellectual sloth than seek the uncomfortable truth. You're not going to get some kind of detached, high-minded, above-it-all discussion of racism, because it's not an intellectual problem, it's a human problem with a history of incredible pain and damage, and you can't ask people to pretend that it all happened to space aliens on Planet Mongo. If you engage the problem at all, there will be discomfort. And you won't find a nice, easy, simple, gift-wrapped solution. So you get to decide (at least if you're a white person): ignore the sticky icky difficult problem (and shout down any attempts at discussion, because they make you uncomfortable), or accept that the answers will take some work to produce and won't be entirely to your liking. But whatever you choose, please don't say that "[d]iscussions on racism do nothing but fuel it". At worst, they simply point to a fire that was already burning, and make people who were happier ignoring it aware of its presence.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 08:02 AM on June 17

Ali didn't really "go to prison." The only reason he eventually won his case was members of the Supreme Court traded votes for his case and another. One of those "I'll vote for Ali if you'll vote my way for my case. See "The Brethren" Your photo was the busing riots of Boston in the mid 70s. I could go on, but the fact is your point is well made. Race is not discussed in America, let alone being "overly discussed."

posted by ?! at 08:21 AM on June 17

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana

posted by Texan_lost_in_NY at 08:56 AM on June 17

geekyguy: We are more alike than we are different and most of the differences are cultural if you can look past the superficial. ... This just in: Men and women are different. We need to celebrate our differences more and bitch about them less. Leaving aside the apropos-of-nothing switch from race to gender, which is it? Our differences are superficial and need to be looked past, or they're intrinsic and need to be celebrated?

posted by Motown Mike at 10:27 AM on June 17

You are correct on several points about race and racism, but please, most Americans can't repeat the National Anthem, let alone the history of our nation or those who came before it.

posted by Bears85 at 10:13 PM on June 17

I'm simply saying that we are more alike than we are different. Can we all get along? Yeah, I bet we could if we, as a society, lose the victim mentality that permeates American culture. It is striking that Europe, in general, doesn't have race problems to the extent that America does. Canada doesn't either for that matter. It exists, just not nearly the same scale. In no way do I mean to imply or suggest that we forget the horrible acts of our forefathers but instead try to move past them. We have a rich and troubled history that we need to work together to overcome. Any two people, regardless of geography or ethnicity, share at least 99.99 percent of their genetic makeups--a deep sameness that makes a mockery of racist ideologies such as Nazism. Paradoxically, the minuscule .01 percent of our genome that does make people different doesn't shake out along visible racial lines. From Basically, we are all the same A Feckless Quest for the Basketball Gene

posted by geekyguy at 06:23 AM on June 18

So...fans making monkey chants at black soccer players across Europe counts for nothing? I can't imagine that happening here in the states. geekyguy, I'm not seeing that discussions of racism fuel it. For me the whole racism issue is boiling just below the surface in our society. It seems open dialogue may be the most important vehicle for releasing some of that steam.

posted by Texan_lost_in_NY at 06:37 AM on June 18

Bad fan behavior happens everywhere and in fact Europe has long led the way in that regard.

posted by geekyguy at 07:28 AM on June 18

I'm simply saying that we are more alike than we are different. Can we all get along? Yeah, I bet we could if we, as a society, lose the victim mentality that permeates American culture. Geekyguy, I'm guessing that you're white. I'm white too. When I go to a store in the mall, the manager doesn't detach a salesperson to follow me around and make sure I don't steal anything. If I speed and a cop stops me, he isn't going to act as if I'm likely to be packing. You and I can ignore the racism in the status quo because, guess what, it's not targeting us. We can ignore it, but that doesn't mean it's not there, and it doesn't mean that recognizing it constitutes a "victim mentality". It is striking that Europe, in general, doesn't have race problems to the extent that America does. Canada doesn't either for that matter. It exists, just not nearly the same scale. Neither Europe nor Canada brought millions of Africans to their shores and set up a system of chattel slavery on their soil. The fallout from that one isn't over, and the more people say, "Oh can't we all just forget that stuff?", the more we postpone getting over it. In no way do I mean to imply or suggest that we forget the horrible acts of our forefathers but instead try to move past them. We can't move past them without confronting them. In this country, in the '60s and early '70s, there was some willingness to address issues of racism. Since then, the majority of Americans have become intellectually and morally lazy on this issue. Us white folks can ignore it if we want, because if racial issues aren't resolved, we're not the ones who suffer for the most part. But try dating a person of color for a while, or have a mixed-race child, and see if you think the solution is to wring your hands and say, "Can't we all just get along?" And Rodney King wasn't a prophet, he was a victim.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 07:37 AM on June 18

Indeed, it was Larry Bird himself who put the Great White Hope myth to rest with the controversial comment that pro hoops "is a black man's game, and it will be forever. I mean, the greatest athletes in the world are African-American." BS! so where is the greatest Black QB?? Found any Marinos, Elways, Starrs or Bradys??? How about pictchers? The greatest are white..Clemens, maddox, Randy Johnson and Sandy Koufax..maybe a few blacks but not many. Greatest tennis players? McEnroe, Connors or Borg anyone? Golf..ok Jack Nicklaus( and Tiger still has a long ways to go before he is better). Nascar? We don't even need to go there. Hockey? Gretzky or Lemieux? Anyone? I could go on, but in terms of greatest atheltes, yes the blacks excel at the physicality of being an athelete. They tend to run faster, jump higher, quickr moves...BUT when it comes to the THINKING positions or sports..well we know the rest of the story.

posted by bluekarma at 12:50 PM on June 18

I don't believe Nash's selection had anything to do with race. And I find it hard to believe that anyone else would, considering he is "only" the 6th white person to ever win the award, which is has been awarded to a white person 9 times out of 49 thus far. Yup, must be racism. Look at the award winners since Shaq entered the League: 1992-93 - Charles Barkley, Phoenix 1993-94 - Hakeem Olajuwon, Houston 1994-95 - David Robinson, San Antonio 1995-96 - Michael Jordan, Chicago 1996-97 - Karl Malone, Utah 1997-98 - Michael Jordan, Chicago 1998-99 - Karl Malone, Utah 1999-00 - Shaquille O'Neal, Los Angeles Lakers 2000-01 - Allen Iverson, Philadelphia 2001-02 - Tim Duncan, San Antonio 2002-03 - Tim Duncan, San Antonio 2003-04 - Kevin Garnett, Minnesota 2004-05 - Steve Nash, Phoenix How many of these elections were contested over race? Or more appropriately, how many of these elections were contested over Shaq's dominance? My guess is 2. '01 & '05. I don't recall anyone being so moved as to dismiss Duncan or Garnett's MVP seasons because "clearly Shaq was the better player". Because he wasn't. What makes/made Iverson/Nash's awards more contested is the fact that its harder for some of us to compare and contrast the contributions of a guard vs. a forward/center. Hell, lets break down the rest while we're at it. It seemed for a while, during Shaq's early years that he wouldn't win an MVP until he either had a statistically anomalyous year (akin to Wilts 50 PPG during the '62 season) or he contended for a championship. From 93 through 99, it's hard to dispute any of the award winners, it's a list of first ballot HOF'ers. The harsh truth may be that Shaq isn't as dominant as we believe him to be. Is he an All-Star? Absolutely. Is he a first ballot HOF'er? With out a doubt. But he never distanced himself from the field like Wilt, where he outscored the next highest scorer for a season by 10 ppg. He's "only" grabbed over 1000 boards in a season 3 times in his career, Wilt accomplished this feat 13 times out of 14 seasons. Shaq hasn't won as many rings as Russell (who else has), or Kareem. How many seasons have ended with whispered questions of Shaq's desire, or his conditioning? He is certainly in the mold of "Big Men of Old" but he never truly outdistanced his field. Is this too much of an expectation? Answering that question may do more to answer why he's only won one MVP award than whether or not the NBA is racist. On preview: Someone tell me I didn't read this correctly: ...BUT when it comes to the THINKING positions or sports..well we know the rest of the story.

posted by lilnemo at 01:21 PM on June 18

...BUT when it comes to the THINKING positions or sports..well we know the rest of the story. Holy fucking shit.

posted by psmealey at 01:41 PM on June 18

Ha Ha Ha! Oh man, are you way out in left feld, BlueKarma. Incidentally, while you're out there, say hello to Jim Caple's pick for the Best Left-Fielder Ever.

posted by Samsonov14 at 02:55 PM on June 18

It may come down to this. White people for so long have had the upper hand as a result of slavery and more white people are in jobs that require thinking. White kids see how their parents think their way through life and this teaches them, not to be smarter, but to use their intelligence more. On the flip side of that, black kids watch their parents work their way through life and this teaches them to be physical instead of mental. I have no doubt that a black man could be just as smart as a white man and a white man could be just as athletic as a black man, we just aren't raised or taught that way.

posted by Ricardo at 10:00 PM on June 18

Barf: tell Doug Williams* who can't think. The thinking problem is every coach that says, "That nigger sure can run, but I wouldn't want him throwing a pass in the 4th quarter of a tie game." Pull your head out of your THINKING position and take a look around. And Steve McNair, Donovan McNabb, Daunte Culpepper, Bill Russell, Bob Gibson, Ferguson Jenkins, etc. I could go on . . . No you couldn't, because you're out of sports that culturally exclude blacks, except maybe golf. I'd say lacrosse, but Jim Brown is the greatest lax player of all time. Tennis? Jesus, maybe let a brother into your country club before you bitch he can't play. NASCAR? No offense to race fans, but who gives a fuck? We're still trying to figure out if that's a sport, and if some peckerwood won't let a black kid play QB, what are the odds a rich shitkicker is going to turn over the wheel of a multimillion dollar car to a black guy? Hockey's a really good example though. I'm stumped as to why it's not dominated by black kids.

posted by yerfatma at 10:24 PM on June 18

Ricardo, I think you're probably pretty close on the role model proposition which is why African-American pro athletes, singers and actors ought to realize that for their community, their prominence does place a burden on them that whites in the same businesses don't have. If the successful folks in a community don't take the burden on, change is just that much harder to reach. In the last generation, give or take, Americans have also seen more successful minorities in politics, the military and corporate life which is good because athletes, singers and actors (across the board and, yes, I'm generalizing) are probably not the best choices for role models. For the time being, though, there is who there is.

posted by billsaysthis at 11:12 PM on June 18

FYI, NASCAR is the NUMBER 1 spectator sport in the world. That is FACT. And so what if whites have had more chances to excel, that doesn't mean they are born to excel. They have to still prove they can do the job. More often than not, they do it and do it better more often. With no other options but to sink or swim, many whites choose to swim. Blacks KNOW they will get oppurtunities from Affirmative Action and welfare and qoutas. I could go on. I see the world for what it is, not what I think it should be. If a truck is heading towards your stalled car, it isn't a good time to be thinking about whether or not that driver has a license to drive..

posted by bluekarma at 12:10 AM on June 19

NASCAR is certainly the most popular redneck amusement in the world, unless you count sister bangin. But it just doesn't qualify as a sport as far as I'm concerned. Dumbest thing on TV, and there's plenty of competition with reality TV getting big.

posted by Ricardo at 12:51 AM on June 19

Hockey's a really good example though. I'm stumped as to why it's not dominated by black kids. Yerfatma, it took me a minute to figure out you were just kidding - I've been drinking. It made me think about Jerome Iginla, though. He's won the Art Ross (league leader in scoring), Rocket Richard (most goals scored) twice, and Lester B. Pearson (best player according to the NHL Player's Association) trophies. That doesn't mean he's a Thinker, of course, but if you've ever seen him in an interview, you know he's definitely a smart guy. Iginla is Calgary's captain for a reason. He's a great role-model for the tiny percentage of black kids who might be interested in hockey, but more importantly, he's a great role model for all kids who might be interested in hockey. The cool thing about Jerome is that he's become a fan favorite and an ambassador in a predominantly white sport. I'd be willing to bet that at least 90% of Iginla Jersy owners are white people, and that's kind of cool.

posted by Samsonov14 at 01:54 AM on June 19

FYI, NASCAR is the NUMBER 1 spectator sport in the world. That is FACT. I'll have to remember that asserting something repeatedly and using ALL CAPS makes it FACT. The truth is that no one has even defined what would make something "the NUMBER 1 spectator sport in the world". Is it number of spectators? Or person-hours per year spent spectating? Or dollars per person spent spectating, or dollars spent spectating overall, or advertising dollars, or marketing dollars, or what? Nor are any of these assertions that this or that is "the NUMBER 1 spectator sport in the world" ever accompanied of supporting facts showing that this or that sport is number one by any definition. Finally, even if all of you number-one claimants ever agree on methods, you're gonna have one hell of a time performing the actual research on a world-wide basis. Not everyone watches their sports on a TV with a Nielsen box attached, and not every sports fan has a telephone (we're talking worldwide, right?) or sits by it in eager anticipation of the survey-taker's call. I'll never believe any crap claims about "NUMBER 1", even if some day I see one that's not as transparently agenda-laden as this one.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 05:42 AM on June 19

Blacks KNOW they will get oppurtunities from Affirmative Action and welfare and qoutas. They also like fried chicken, don't they?

posted by psmealey at 09:47 AM on June 19

FYI, NASCAR is the NUMBER 1 spectator sport in the world. That is FACT. I would be shocked if it's drawing big ratings in Europe, but maybe that's my myopia showing. To be clear, I didn't mean to denigrate NASCAR (I realize that's non-obvious given my Drinking Man's Tone above); my point was, regardless of relative popularity, the first black Winston Cup winner (if there hasn't already been one) will not have the cultural impact of Jackie Robinson. I see the world for what it is, not what I think it should be. And what is good, bluekarma, And what is not good . . . need we ask anyone to tell us these things?

posted by yerfatma at 05:28 PM on June 19

FYI, NASCAR is the NUMBER 1 spectator sport in the world. That is FACT. Um...I think the football/soccer contingent might have a problem with that statement. BUT when it comes to the THINKING positions or sports..well we know the rest of the story. Quick note: watch the CFL sometime. Last year's Grey Cup championship team was coached by a black guy (Mike Clemons) and quarterbacked by a black guy (Damon Allen, brother of Marcus Allen). The player of the year was a black quarterback (Casey Printers). One of the greatest quarterbacks in CFL history was black (Warren Moon...heard of him?). Just because some American professional leagues might have a problem with black people in "thinking positions", don't assume that they can't handle them when actually given the chance.

posted by grum@work at 06:38 PM on June 19

Of course, BlueKarma (and isn't that an odd choice of handles based on the comments posted here to date?) once again proves the correctness of my recent assertion regarding American provincialism. Even if you grant that NASCAR is the #1 spectator sport in the USA which I tend to doubt--lbb's point about how we'd quantify this is a good one--you can't tell me that the billions of Chinese, Indian, African and Russian sports soccer fans have even heard of it.

posted by billsaysthis at 10:09 PM on June 19

Discussions on racism do nothing but fuel it. While I wouldn't totally agree with that statement, I would say that most discussions solve nothing when it comes to racism, including this one. We have the same arguments, the same cliches, and most discussion has surrounded one trollish comment. Almost none of it has even touched on the topic at hand. The link was about race, Nash, and the NBA, not if security follows black people around in a store and not white people. If Nash were black no one would question if he had been 'given' the award. When it comes to the NBA, whites face some of the same obstacles blacks often face in other areas. He'd be easily compared to a black business man making it to a high level in his company, only to have whites wonder if he reached it by affirmative action, or some quota. And it really doesn't matter how good that white player is, the cloud of 'he's white, so there you go' will always be there. Remember Isiah's comment about Larry Byrd ("just another player"). Steve Nash goes to a local inner city hoop game, but no one knows he's Steve Nash. He's just some white guy. Want to guess if he gets picked last? Without anyone thinking, "hey, maybe he's good"? There's an automatic assumption that he can't play, can't run, can't jump. Much like in the NFL coaches not thinking a black guy can run the offense. Every race seems to love to make sweeping generaliztions about the next. It's a simplistic view for simplistic minds. When I was a kid, I loved basketball. I played 24/7 and wasn't bad. 90 percent of the time I was the only white player on the court. Was I proud when Byrd won mvp? You bet. It gave me hope. Just as Doug Williams gave pride and hope to black players who dreamed of being a quarterback. Somethings aren't racist, they're human. I'd be more willing to believe that that was true if I felt that the average American could tell you who Emmett Till was, explain why Muhammad Ali went to prison, state when the US Navy formally ended segregation and made all ranks and ratings open to people of all races, list the major points of the Dred Scott decision, explain the Bible-based rationale for the enslavement of Africans, or date and place this photo. I can tell you're passionate about the topic, but I couldn't disagree with you more. I was raised in a black neighborhood. My parents never made a racist comment, never acted in a manner that would lead you to believe they thought differently of black or white people. When my father started making more money and friends wondered why he didn't move us out of the "ghetto", he stayed because of our wonderful neighbors. That's what gave me my values and views towards race today. That's far more important that the date and place of that photo. In fact, I'd place ZERO importance on the date and place of that photo, or just about any other facts in your comment. History is wonderful, but knowing it doesn't guarantee a certain attitude towards race. Many other issues are far more important. Neither Europe nor Canada brought millions of Africans to their shores and set up a system of chattel slavery on their soil. The fallout from that one isn't over, and the more people say, "Oh can't we all just forget that stuff?", the more we postpone getting over it. There's a fine line between pretending it didn't happen and dwelling on it. I'd say the practice of racism today is more important than what happened in the past. Besides, nothing can be done about the past, the present and future is a different story. But try dating a person of color for a while, or have a mixed-race child, and see if you think the solution is to wring your hands and say, "Can't we all just get along?" I was very good friends with a mixed couple living in Georgia (deep south!). We went out quite a bit together and never had a problem, nor stares. Does it ever happen? Sure. Has it gotten better? Yes. And by saying yes I'm not saying it doesn't exist, or let's forget about it, it means we've made progress, and contending that we haven't is as misguided as believing the problem is solved. And Rodney King wasn't a prophet, he was a victim. Definitely a victim, and as it turns out, pretty much a career criminal as well. As for a pure victim... NASCAR is certainly the most popular redneck amusement in the world, unless you count sister bangin. Isn't hypocrisy a beautiful thing? Anyone would condemn the statement "black people love chicken", but nascar equals southern white people equals rednecks equals banging your sister goes unchallenged. Until we realize that ignorance is ignorance no matter what the skin color, discussions on race issues are pointless. Nothing will change.

posted by justgary at 01:04 AM on June 20

It is more about culture than race. Think about it. Last year's Grey Cup championship team was coached by a black guy (Mike Clemons) and quarterbacked by a black guy (Damon Allen, brother of Marcus Allen). The player of the year was a black quarterback (Casey Printers). One of the greatest quarterbacks in CFL history was black (Warren Moon...heard of him?). Can you not see the implied racism in statements like that? As if being black was a hurdle that had to be overcome. How about just celebrating the successes of a great athlete at the top of their game? It seems that Canada can.

posted by geekyguy at 01:49 AM on June 20

As if being black was a hurdle that had to be overcome. Oy, genius, maybe sometimes it is.

posted by yerfatma at 06:03 AM on June 20

Not to derail, but motor sports might be the number one spectator sport in the world, NASCAR is not. I'd be tempted to put football as the number one, unless we're being cute with the stats and working on average attendence per event, where the sheer number of matches played each week would knock the average down. NASCAR barely registers here.

posted by Mr Bismarck at 06:17 AM on June 20

Again, what's the number based on? People who like it? Asses in seats? Asses on couches? Minutes spent watching? Wait, wait, does that mean that Andy Roddick and Younes El Aynaoui have the biggest fan base in the world, based on the number of minutes per athlete of spectator-watching? I love this silliness.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 07:49 AM on June 20

It's based on total amount of cheese toasties consumed as a percentage of bodyweight, during the event. Even under this criteria, NASCAR still isn't number one, regardless of how big the letters "FACT" is written in. Anyway, we now return you to your scheduled thread.

posted by Mr Bismarck at 08:03 AM on June 20

Can you not see the implied racism in statements like that? As if being black was a hurdle that had to be overcome. How about just celebrating the successes of a great athlete at the top of their game? It seems that Canada can. Actually, what I was doing was providing evidence to a previous post that implied that black people can't excel in a "thinking" position in sports. These were three quick examples to support my position. I'm not implying that they had to overcome any hurdles. I was simply stating facts.

posted by grum@work at 09:47 AM on June 20

I was simply stating facts. grum, that's so last year.

posted by yerfatma at 10:19 AM on June 20

Just to be clear, are whites now deciding "if being black was a hurdle that had to be overcome?"

posted by Texan_lost_in_NY at 10:21 AM on June 20

I was simply stating facts You forgot to use all capital letters.

posted by Mr Bismarck at 10:55 AM on June 20

It's based on total amount of cheese toasties consumed as a percentage of bodyweight, during the event. I had to do a websearch to find out what a cheese toasty is. I thought it must be something like a Cheese Doodle, but it's not, it's a grilled cheese sandwich. In that case, any European spectator sport would win hands down: we Merkins prefer our snacks pre-made, and if we've got to stir ourselves to actually cook the damn things, well, we'd really rather not. And why should we, with roughly 83 different flavors of fried snacks in bags? If, on the other hand, you want to compare Cheese Doodles to cheese toasties, we might have you, despite the fact that a cheese toasty outweighs a Cheese Doodle and the average American outweighs the average Brit.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 07:25 PM on June 20

we Merkins prefer our snacks pre-made they also have a whole different meaning for the work merkin.

posted by goddam at 11:31 PM on June 20

Gracias. That stood out a bit.

posted by yerfatma at 06:04 AM on June 21

I'm aware of the original meaning, although I confess I can't imagine a situation that would make such a...um...solution necessary, or even desirable. I guess it's a Euro thing. It's still a good phoneticization, though.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 06:54 AM on June 21

To be more accurate, NASCAR is not the most popular spectator sport in the world, or the fastest growing. But according to the folks at The Sporting News, and the folks at Nextel (surprise!), NASCAR racing (including the Craftsman Truck Series, Busch Series and the like) is the fastest growing spectator sport in America. Not the world, as was earlier claimed, but America. And I didn't use caps except for the acronym, so you know it's true.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 02:11 PM on June 21

TBH, and that's relevant how?

posted by billsaysthis at 03:03 PM on June 21

You're not logged in. Please log in or register.