November 21, 2005

Yet another leak? : According to Peter Gammons and Jayson Stark, Boston has traded #1 prospect Hanley Ramirez and prospect Anibel Sanchez to the Marlins for Josh Beckett and Mike Lowell.

read story | posted by YukonGold to Baseball at 7:20 PM CDT (28 comments total)

An interesting development, considering they don't have a freaking GM yet. This isn't the kind of move you make over a weekend, so I wonder how long this has been developing. All in all either the Red Sox didn't see an appropriate window to fit Ramirez in and they used his top prospect value or they just value pitching that much more.

Plus, I wouldn't be surprised if President Jackson looks like a latter day Dan Shaughnessy if this doesn't go through

posted by YukonGold at 7:24 PM CDT on November 21

The deal is contingent on the finalization of paperwork and all players passing physicals, sources outside the Red Sox organization have told ESPN's Peter Gammons. An official announcement is not expected for a day or two, which leaves open the possibility that it could still fall apart, Gammons said on SportsCenter.

Boston's sources are the best in the biz.

posted by YukonGold at 7:26 PM CDT on November 21

If I'm a Red Sox fan - my IQ drops thirty points. Yuk, yuk, yuk. No, if I'm a Red Sox fan I like this deal a lot. Who gives a shit about Hanley Ramirez? I'll trade my best prospect for an arm like Beckett's any day - doubly so considering how he fared at Yankee stadium a few years ago. Marlins fire sale continues. Fuck, that's an awful franchise to be a fan of.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 7:38 PM CDT on November 21

I'd rather have the sox rely on the farm system, but if beckett can pitch anything like he did a few years ago, I'll take him.

posted by justgary at 7:40 PM CDT on November 21

I don't understand why MLB let that dickhead have another team, especially one in a tenuous situation. I'd like to see Ramirez do well. And then sign back with the Sox once he's matched his potential. Hope Beckett's blisters are behind him. We saw too many Clemens' starts ruined by them.

posted by yerfatma at 7:42 PM CDT on November 21

I dont understand how reliable these things are- yesterday it was Texas, now Boston, I bet the"ll say the Yanks next to really juice things up. Seems like a false trade to me- and besides the Texas trade is better for the Marlins in my opinion- because you get a polished young guy with power in the lineup. The Boston deal is kinda BS no real problems solved for either team, the Sox will end up getting another pitcher with a 4+ ERA.

posted by redsoxrgay at 9:33 PM CDT on November 21

With the Texas deal the Marlins would then need to turn around and trade Blaylock for prospects...and from what I have heard Texas didn't want to include either of their top two pitching prospects.

The Boston deal is kinda BS no real problems solved for either team, the Sox will end up getting another pitcher with a 4+ ERA.

We are discussing the Beckett trade right? When healthy he is the legitimate top tier pitcher the Sox were so sorely missing last year w/out Pedro and Schilling. This is one of those that could end up being a good deal for both sides. Florida is able to cut salary, get rid of Lowell, which allows them to move Cabrera to third where he would prefer to be, and possibly have a helluva shortstop if Ramirez pans out. Boston gets the front line pitcher to fill the void in their rotation and, if Lowell reverts to prior form (that is a big if), an upgrade at third, although I love Billy Mueller, kid has no pop.

Is it just me or is Lowell the least clutch player in MLB? Even in his good years he never amassed RBI totals to match his power numbers and has never put up good numbers with RISP. I going to go out on a limb and guess that a move to Boston will not help his career...what is left of it anyways.

posted by bigrobbieb at 9:53 PM CDT on November 21

Setting reliability and the above Yankee bias aside, getting a career 3.46 ERA, 26 year old for a top prospect seems like a gift from the Gods for the Red Sox rotation. Add Beckett to Johnathan Papelbon and the rotation starts to look above average. Mike Lowell (a Yankee Draftee) will either platoon or outright replace Bill Mueller. It would appear to be a strong move by the GM-by-committee in Boston that does solve a problem and need. The Marlins also get what they want, which is salary relief.

posted by The SmoothMASTER at 10:13 PM CDT on November 21

Fuck, that's an awful franchise to be a fan of.

I don't know -- two World Series titles in the last ten years is not too bad. I actually think there hasn't been much method to the Marlins' madness, but you do see an awful lot of teams (the Giants come to mind and, sadly for this STL fan, the Cardinals may be on the path) stick with veterans or bad contracts because of the "contend every year" philosophy insread of just saying "Hey, we're going to retool and try to be competitive (considering our market constraints) in 3-5 years.

posted by holden at 10:24 PM CDT on November 21

Well, I think if you're going to get rid of two good prospects, this is a decent deal. At least Beckett is young, and his best years are ahead of him. Ramirez still has potential, although he has regressed recently, but Renteria is clogging up his spot. Sanchez, well I'm more upset in losing him, but if Beckett works out he'll be more than worth the sacrifice.

Lowell... well, that's another barrel of fish. I saw a comment to the effect of converting him to a first baseman, making Youklis the regular third-baseman. I mean, Lowell's GOT to be better than what Kevin Millar gave us last year.

posted by uglatto at 11:05 PM CDT on November 21

The Boston deal is kinda BS no real problems solved for either team

One, you obviously didn't have the pleasure of watching sox pitching this year.

the Sox will end up getting another pitcher with a 4+ ERA.

2003 3.04
2004 3.79
2005 3.38

And two, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

posted by justgary at 11:50 PM CDT on November 21

Jeffrey Loria gets tired of his toys pretty quickly, eh?

posted by DrJohnEvans at 12:23 AM CDT on November 22

Bill Mueller was gone either way. I don't know that Lowell will be starting or platooning at either corner unless Youkilis or next year's 1B/3B (there was talk of moving Youk to 1B) don't pan out.

posted by yerfatma at 6:14 AM CDT on November 22

A couple of opinions.

posted by yerfatma at 7:04 AM CDT on November 22

Marlins fire sale continues. Fuck, that's an awful franchise to be a fan of.

No kidding. Watching your best young players get shopped because the team doesn't know how to competently stay within its means sucks. The Marlins are acting as if they were in salary cap hell, even though there's no cap in baseball.

The Marlins first World Series was a mercenary victory -- the fans didn't have a chance to get to know their team before they won it.

The second was different, but now they're getting rid of that team. Part of the enjoyment of the game is following players over 5-10 years. When the next Juan Pierre or Josh Beckett makes his Marlins debut and begins playing great, how much faith can you have he'll be around for long?

posted by rcade at 7:32 AM CDT on November 22

Do not forget who owned the Marlins during their 2 WS Championships..... Yes! The current Boston Red Sox owners. This guys know what they are doing; heck, they already brought a WS to Boston! No one team can purely rely on their Farm system alone to win in this day and age. You have to be bold and witty to attract the few good free agents there are. This guys had a great pitching staff while in Florida, and are building a solid staff now with Boston. That was their method to their "madness" back then, and continues to be their method, proven to work! For refence, look at this year's White Sox... Defense/Pitching wins games!

BTW, we had been commenting about this trade on a different thread! Why create a new one for a related topic?

posted by zippinglou at 8:23 AM CDT on November 22

Do not forget who owned the Marlins during their 2 WS Championships..... Yes! The current Boston Red Sox owners.

John Henry wasn't the owner for either of the Marlins WS victory. The owner for the first one was Huizenga and for the second one it was Loria.

posted by bperk at 9:04 AM CDT on November 22

The owner for the first one was Huizenga and for the second one it was Loria.

Brilliant!

we had been commenting about this trade on a different thread! Why create a new one for a related topic?

I know you're an expert on appropriate FPP's (since 4 of them have been deleted), but why even mention it. If you need credit for "breaking the story", it's all yours.

posted by YukonGold at 11:04 AM CDT on November 22

justgary: with respect to the 4.00-ish ERA, I think conventional wisdom (with the stats to back it up) is that Florida is a pitcher's park and ERAs go higher for pitchers moving from the NL to the AL, so I'm not sure an ERA of 4.00 is out of the question for Beckett in Boston even with his prior trendlines.

See here for one set of projections of Beckett coming out with about a 4.00 ERA.

posted by holden at 2:05 PM CDT on November 22

Look like the Marlins are moving.

posted by Joe88 at 4:19 PM CDT on November 22

Beckett - good acquisition with possible risk he's on downside; did I hear $9 mil? Just one good year will make it all worthwhile. Lowell may only be a backup to Youklis - finally mentioned by someone. If Mueller doesn't go in trade, don't be surprised if he competes; he's gutsy and has hit before and with occasional power - past yr may be an aberration. Haven't seen or heard any physical/medical explanation for the 'collapse'!

posted by nancyphilmcdonough at 12:40 AM CDT on November 23

I think it's reasonably clear that Lowell plays 3rd (gold glove anyone?) and Youklis moves over to 1st. Miller is the odd guy out here. Lowell may eventually be a back-up, but if I'm the Sox I start him until he proves otherwise.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 8:39 AM CDT on November 23

One bad year at the plate and we're relegating Lowell to back-up status? People are so fickle.

posted by tron7 at 9:52 AM CDT on November 23

One bad year at the plate and we're relegating Lowell to back-up status?

2 good and a couple of decent years and we're acting like he's penciled in as a starter in anybody's lineup? It's hard to say if last year was an aberration or the first sign of Steve Blass disease.

posted by yerfatma at 10:38 AM CDT on November 23

Well the numbers aren't as big as I would have thought but they are still impressive for a third baseman. I would draft him in a fantasy league over 2/3 of the league's 3rd baseman and deffinately over youklis/mueller.

posted by tron7 at 11:18 AM CDT on November 23

Lowell obviously has a glove, something every would agree Kevin Millar didn't. So if he performs above Millar's offensive numbers of last year (.272/9/50/.753 ops) is it an upgrade? Bill Mueller seems walking out that door so you probably have to look at Youkilis or the latest rumor in there as well.

I would draft him in a fantasy league

Fantasy baseball draft position is the only true measure of a player's value. If there was a "close this discussion" button I'd be hitting it now. What else do we need to say?

posted by YukonGold at 11:39 AM CDT on November 23

Damn, I had something to say, but then I realized the "fantasy league" card had been played, so I'll just keep it to myself.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 4:05 PM CDT on November 23

What I meant when I said that he would have a 4+ ERA, was that he was moving to a different league, and tha tFenway isnt a pitchers park, and tha tthe AL is a better hitters league than the NL- not to mention they have a DH. And just because you have Schilling and Beckett, it dosent mean your starting 5 are solid, it means you have 3 proven pitchers, with no farm system- I just didnt, and still dont see the point.

posted by redsoxrgay at 8:37 PM CDT on November 27

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