Yeah, now that Griffey is back, if he stays healthy (a very big if, sadly) his natural ability and wisdom of age could put up 35-40 a year just like Aaron did... so he could be in Bonds' range by the time he's Bonds age! Had he stayed healthy, there's a good chance he'd already be over 700 at 37 years of age, instead of likely to pass 600. We'll still recall him as one of the all-time greats, a modern Willie Mays with likely 600+ HR and a stellar centerfielder. More to the point, Griffey also had his media gloss: he was "The Kid", and people imagined him as this fun-loving gangly free spirit, whereas Bonds is the "surly" one (just like Williams). We can see another case already that will likely make the Bonds situation moot: at just shy of 32 years of age, with no history of injury, Alex Rodriguez is about to hit his 500th homerun, meaning he's likely going to hit his 600th homerun by the end of the 2009 season, when he's a couple of months past his 34th birthday. A-Rod has not exactly been a media darling himself. In 5 years, when Alex has put up 5 straight 40+ HR seasons and is closing in on whatever mark Bonds has retired with, will we have this same conversation, claiming that A-Rod is a bastard and a dirty player, blah blah blah? Or will we simply recognize we've seen one of the greatest of all time, and disregard the personal flaws the way we did with those early Hall inductees- including Ruth? Long and short of it is, any BBWAA voter who does NOT put Barry Bonds on the first ballot into the HOF should be promptly stricken from all future voting; just as that one voter who kept Pedro Martinez off the 1999 MVP voting roll because he didn't believe a pitcher should ever win should not have been allowed to vote. Barry is eligible, Barry's numbers are incontrovertible, and Barry has never committed a crime that we know of, nor disgraced the game a la Pete Rose.
I can understand the black community, with the history of judicial bias against them, standing by bonds who has never tested positive for steroids. That said, I put very little credence in the poll and feel like we've been done this a hundred times already. How many of these baseball fans know the details of the evidence against bonds (and really, who can blame them?). For instance this: It's all just allegations, hints, suggestions, etc. posted by Hal Incandenza Is either a complete misunderstanding of the evidence against bonds or a complete whitewashing. Bonds own testimony and a paper trail a mile long isn't "allegations, hints, suggestions". Much like a jury that hasn't seen the evidence, why would I believe a poll with voters who are ignorant to the facts. I might not agree with the other reasons to support bonds (everyone cheats, it wasn't illegal, hall of fame player before steroids, etc.) but I understand them. But trivializing the mountain of evidence bonds stands on just shuts down the conversation for me. Much like hearing someone tell me OJ was innocent and he'll find the real killers on the golf course one day, the debate isn't even worth having. Black people are well aware of the phenomena of people trying to keep the black man down, and this looks like a good example of discounting his accomplishments for one's own agenda. posted by bperk Ahh, if only my world was as black and white as yours. I want bonds to break the record so we can quit having the debate. Then I hope A-Rod, who I don't like, breaks it. And I wish Griffey Jr. would have stayed healthy enough to break it. Why wasn't McGwire voted into the hall? He's not black, should have been a cake walk. And everything The Crafty Sousepaw just said about Griffey Jr. in comparison. Does your example exists? Of course. Can you color the entire topic with your theory? Nope. This guy is the greatest baseball player of our generation (and possibly ever) and you're turning off the TV because the media tells you to? Don't do that to yourself. Watching him play is one of the things you'll be able to tell your grandchildren about and they'll look at you with the same awe that we looked at ours who talked about the old-time greats. You're assuming that everyone who doesn't like bonds does so because the media tells them not to, which makes about as much sense as saying everyone who watches him does so because the media tells them to, which is also wrong. And I watch Bonds a lot. He's actually, in many situations, pretty painful to watch right now.
Ken Griffey, Jr. is black and comes from a baseball family. Griffey is not terribly comfortable with the media and can sometimes come across as aloof. If we were talking about Griffey instead of Bonds, though, I think the public attitude would be completely different. But how much of that difference would be us, fairly informed fans, and how much of it would be the general sports fan listening to whatever Rick Reilly tells them?
Much like a jury that hasn't seen the evidence, why would I believe a poll with voters who are ignorant to the facts. What's not to believe? The poll is about people's perception of Bonds.
Is either a complete misunderstanding of the evidence against bonds or a complete whitewashing. Bonds own testimony and a paper trail a mile long isn't "allegations, hints, suggestions". Oh, you mean the testimony that was illegally leaked, that he nor anybody else involved with could either confirm or deny? That same testimony?
Leaked testimony, legal or illegal, is still testimony. Everyone knows that "I can neither confirm or deny" is code for confirming something. I just wish Bonds would hit the home runs needed to confirm he has the record so he can become irrelevant.
Bonds should be the holder of the record, period, no asterisk. He hasn't been officially charged with cheating and he hasn't come out and said he did. I always wonder why certain "cheats" are looked upon as ok. I do not recall baseball taking away "all" the wins for those pitchers that have been caught with an emery board, they didn't take away "all" of Brett's hits up until the point where he was caught with too much pine tar and how about those guys that are too dehydrated to play, they go in get an IV and then they come back to play their body said no more, but the doctor said yes you can and here you go, why is ok to use this method to "alter" (cheat) their body's performance.
What's not to believe? The poll is about people's perception of Bonds. posted by bperk Perhaps the word I was looking for was meaningless. Oh, you mean the testimony that was illegally leaked, that he nor anybody else involved with could either confirm or deny? That same testimony? posted by bdaddy Yes, that same testimony. If you want to believe its all a conspiracy, you're certainly may.
I just wish Bonds would hit the home runs needed to confirm he has the record so he can become irrelevant. Comment icon posted by Familyman at 4:02 PM CDT on July 17 Brilliant. HOF, recordholder, top 3 player of all time.....irrelevant. Yes, that same testimony. If you want to believe its all a conspiracy, you're certainly may. No, I certainly believe it's probably true. But a) you and I should not even know about it save for the media's distaste for the man himself (wasn't it SF columnist who actually wrote the book detailing his usage? ) b) regardless if we do know about it, no one involved can even comment on it either positively or negatively, so we don't even know the information that was released is complete c) regardless of what we do know, we also know that prior to any suspected usage the man was a HOF'er. We also know that even during suspected usage it was not illegal for him to be doing it. We also know that since his suspected usage, testing has stepped up, yet he has an OPS just slightly under his career average.
a) you and I should not even know about it save for the media's distaste for the man himself (wasn't it SF columnist who actually wrote the book detailing his usage? ) b) regardless if we do know about it, no one involved can even comment on it either positively or negatively, so we don't even know the information that was released is complete c) regardless of what we do know, we also know that prior to any suspected usage the man was a HOF'er. We also know that even during suspected usage it was not illegal for him to be doing it. We also know that since his suspected usage, testing has stepped up, yet he has an OPS just slightly under his career average. Basically (steroids are illegal, but baseball didn't have it's own policy, and testing in my opinion is a bit of a joke) I agree with everything you said. I simply cringe when people talk of bonds as if the only reason to think he's done steroids is jealousy, hatred, and his size increase. I have no problem with his breaking the record or entering the hall. I also believe he did steroids. But I certainly didn't come to that conclusion because of "allegations, hints, suggestions", and to insinuate so is both misinformed and insulting.
Saying that you "think" he cheated so you don't want him to break the record is "unAmerican". What the heck ever happened until innocent until proven guilty. I could actually care less if he cheated or not, there are spitball pitchers in the HOF and that was cheating. Where is the outrage over that. If Bonds were well liked by the sportswriters, I think it would almost be a non-issue. I can't wait for him to break the record. If he did cheat, baseball is getting what it deserves because after the strike, they turned a blind eye to the "possible" cheating that was taking place because "chicks dig the long-ball". If he isn't cheating, then he deserves it. Either way he is an HOFer in my book.
I love everyone's defense of Baroid Bonds. That steroids didn't help him hit a baseball moving at 95 to 100 MPH. Steroids didn't help him make contact with the ball. It just gave him the power to hit it out of the park more often. Look at Pete Rose no power like Bonds but the man could hit the ball. Tony Gwen hit the ball constantly bet if he would have been on the juice like Baroid Bonds he would be the home run King. Baroid was always a high percentage hitter from the beginning of his career. Just amazes me how much more power he has gotten after being upstaged by Mcguire and Sosa a few years back. He couldn't stand not being in the spot light. Around that time I remember everyone saying Griffey Jr. was the only legitimite threat to Hank's record.
What the heck ever happened until innocent until proven guilty. What the heck does innocent until proven guilty have to do with it?
Then you might want to ge used to saying "Roger Connor, HR king", as one of Ruth's bats that is on display is suspected of having cork in it True, but we have to draw the line somewhere. Otherwise people would be saying that so and so shouldn't be in the Hall because he drank massive amounts of coffee or took vitamins or was a natural athlete because his parents were this that or another genetic type, etc. If we don't draw the line somewhere there'll only be 3 or 4 players in Cooperstown at all (like Al Kaline who has to be the cleanest human being ever...let alone ballplayer). But it does not, in fact, make it easier to hit that little white ball with the round bat. That's why the World's Strongest Man competitions don't have home run derbies. True and that's not easy (though I don't care that ESPN (?) documentary said a few years ago....stopping a 100mph slap-shot IS harder then hitting a baseball), but with his added strength from the steroids he can hit home runs that otherwise would have just been long fly balls.
If we don't draw the line somewhere there'll only be 3 or 4 players in Cooperstown at all (like Al Kaline who has to be the cleanest human being ever...let alone ballplayer). Uh... what if I told you that Kaline took greenies for years without knowing it because the clubhouse coffee was routinely laced with them and he didn't know? But you're right -- you have to draw the line somewhere. Let's just draw it at Bonds and be done with it. Wipe hands, move on.
Uh... what if I told you that Kaline took greenies for years without knowing it because the clubhouse coffee was routinely laced with them and he didn't know? I'd track down whoever said to put them in there and shoot them. Kaline was my boyhood baseball hero, though I suspect I was only one of many many many kid fans of his. Besides greenies don't really make you a better player. They just keep you awake. Right? Though it would explain his incredible fielding range and speed in right field. But you're right -- you have to draw the line somewhere. Let's just draw it at Bonds and be done with it. Wipe hands, move on. Works for me as long as that means just before Bonds and not after him. Otherwise he shouldn't go into the HOF in that case, his dealer should.
Tangential, but it looks like Bonds is getting back at ESPN for their coverage.
Tangential, but it looks like Bonds is getting back at ESPN for their coverage. That's great.
To me cheating is cheating is cheating and I think he's cheating. Cheating is cheating, no matter the race or what record one is trying to break... Besides while greenies would have made it possible to be "up" for more games (as if he'd drank gallons of coffee, which certainly is not cheating) taking steroids, to me anyway, is a whole different animal since it builds a persons muscular strength making it possible for a person to hit the ball harder and further, thus getting more home-runs. If we don't draw the line somewhere there'll only be 3 or 4 players in Cooperstown at all (like Al Kaline who has to be the cleanest human being ever...let alone ballplayer). I'd track down whoever said to put them in there and shoot them. Kaline was my boyhood baseball hero, though I suspect I was only one of many many many kid fans of his. Besides greenies don't really make you a better player. They just keep you awake. Right? Though it would explain his incredible fielding range and speed in right field. CC, the pretense that your issue with Bonds comes from some strong personal stance on cheating as a whole is a pretty thin one. Twice you've said cheating is cheating, but then you qualified that by saying that some cheating is worse than other cheating, and you've basically implied that for some players (Kaline) there are no revelations of cheating that would cause you to turn on them. Please put the pretense down. Just say you hate Barry Bonds and you wish no good upon him. I have pretty high confidence that you would sell both your strong ethical stance on cheating and your irrational hatred of Bonds if he signed with the Tigers and pumped 35 HRs and 100+ RBIs.
I disagree. I have never said that if it could be proven that Kaline cheated I'd forgive him, I wouldn't. It is true that I do hate Bonds and think he's a monumental jerk, but the biggest issue I have with him is that he's so swollen with 'roids that he can't put his hat on any longer. If the Tigers traded for him or paid him a dime and let him put on the uniform even once just to sit on the bench I'd drop my allegiance to them as a team in a heartbeat. Just as I would if he came to Detroit and hit 100 homers a year and guaranteed them a World Series Championship every year he was there. The championships would be hollow. They would be meaningless to me as a fan. I'd track down whoever said to put them in there and shoot them. Kaline was my boyhood baseball hero, though I suspect I was only one of many many many kid fans of his. Besides greenies don't really make you a better player. They just keep you awake. Right? Though it would explain his incredible fielding range and speed in right field. This was in answer to the question of what I would do IF someone placed greenies in Kaline's coffee without him knowing it (which is a HUGE difference from knowingly pumping yourself up with what you know to be illegal substances just for your own ego and place in the record books). Not to what I would feel if I found out he knowingly cheated. Besides, the last sentence was a JOKE!
the biggest issue I have with him is that he's so swollen with 'roids that he can't put his hat on any longer. That's the problem, that his hat doesn't fit? If the Tigers traded for him or paid him a dime and let him put on the uniform even once just to sit on the bench I'd drop my allegiance to them as a team in a heartbeat. If my mother had wheels she'd be a bicycle.
Or at least a Segway.
If the Tigers traded for him or paid him a dime and let him put on the uniform even once just to sit on the bench I'd drop my allegiance to them as a team in a heartbeat. Then how do you reconcile your fandom having Pudge Rodriguez and Gary Sheffield on your team? Why is Bonds's steroid use worse than theirs? which is a HUGE difference from knowingly pumping yourself up with what you know to be illegal substances just for your own ego and place in the record books So then you don't believe yourself when you wrote "cheating is cheating?" Twice? Again, I say your argument is not about steroids, it is not about cheating, it is about your dislike of Barry Bonds. Which is totally fine, but I think you should call it what it is. Don't couch it as indignation toward a breach of ethics, because you're not consistent there.
Then how do you reconcile your fandom having Pudge Rodriguez and Gary Sheffield on your team? Why is Bonds's steroid use worse than theirs? I'm not aware of any serious allegations against them for steroid use. Honestly I am not. Then again I suppose there are rumors about just about every ballplayer MLB these days, but words are easy to throw around. The evidence against Bonds seems to be overwhelming, even if not presentable in court. So then you don't believe yourself when you wrote "cheating is cheating?" Twice? Of course I do, but you can hardly say that that applies if Kaline did not know he was being given greenies. That may be cheating on the part of someone in management, but certainly it is not cheating on his part as an individual. If he didn't know he was being given greenies, then he was not cheating. And yes, I can not emphasis enough that you are right, I do hate Bonds, but not JUST because he's an obnoxious jerk (and he sure is) but ALSO because he is knowingly cheating out of pure ego. If you want to defend him because he hits a lot of homers for a team you like or like him personally then that's fine too, but please don't pretend that his hands are clean in this.
Or actually that should say WAS not aware of alleged steroid use by them before reading those links.
Or at least a Segway. I would ride her all over town, basking in the open-mouthed gawking of the hoi polloi.
If my mother had wheels she'd be a bicycle. Mine would be a tricycle. Old and slow, but still lovable and worth keeping around.
Or actually that should say WAS not aware of alleged steroid use by them before reading those links. So, now that you know, I guess you've dropped the Tigers cold. The Yankees have Giambi, but you can try the Red Sox. There are plenty of people here who are happy to extoll the virtues of rooting for that miserable franchise.
Good seats still available, judging by the callers to 'EEI who insist the Red Sox are screwed and have no chance.
So, now that you know, I guess you've dropped the Tigers cold. The Yankees have Giambi, but you can try the Red Sox. There are plenty of people here who are happy to extoll the virtues of rooting for that miserable franchise. No, not at all. There is no real evidence that Pudge did use steroids or the Sheffield has used them for quite awhile, so I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. However it would appear that Bonds is still using them or something similar, so I'm not as inclined to be in his favor.
Please let me know if you need more sand to bury that head of yours.
so I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. However it would appear that Bonds is still using them or something similar, so I'm not as inclined to be in his favor. Why? Because he's still 'big'? Both sheffield and giambi are in the same boat as bonds. Giving sheffield a pass while slamming bonds is ignoring the facts and relying on personal hatred for bonds. To believe there's any difference between the three is doing exactly what Crafty already mentioned.
I disagree. I see no problem with not slamming Pudge and Sheffield for having given up using steroids and slamming Bonds for continuing it.
However it would appear that Bonds is still using them or something similar If he was using something, he would have to be the ballsiest motherf*cker on the planet. - The man has more media attention right now, than every other athlete in North America combined. - He has reporters tailing his every move, hoping to find something new to scream and shout about in order to feed the constant raging beasts that are 24/7 sports channels/websites. - He has a federal government investigation still trying to pin ANY crime on him. - The one man that might have been his contact for these illegal drugs is currently sitting in a prison. - The one company that might have been his primary source for these drugs has been shattered by the IRS and FDA. - He is a participant in a sport that is going through the heaviest public scrutiny about their drug testing plan. - He is subject to random testing like every other player in the league. But if you still think, with all this hanging over him, he's some how found a new source, a new system and an opportunity to acquire this drugs and then use them without anyone finding out...
I see no problem with not slamming Pudge and Sheffield for having given up using steroids and slamming Bonds for continuing it. I'd love to hear your sources for that claim.
I don't have any sources, it's just my belief. My opinion.
Bonds should be the holder of the record, period, no asterisk Hold the presses there, I know as well as everyone else he'll get it. Although how about we actually wait until he hits 'em all first ok? how about those guys that are too dehydrated to play, they go in get an IV and then they come back to play their body said no more, but the doctor said yes you can and here you go, why is ok to use this method to "alter" (cheat) their body's performance. An IV of normal saline does not even contain any drugs, it is only sterile water. This is what they are most likely giving the dehydrated players. Or they may even be using lactated ringers solution, again no drugs contained in it.
I don't have any sources, it's just my belief. My opinion. You must have someone taking dictation. There is no way you could type these responses while keeping fingers in both ears and screaming "LA LA LA LA LA" at the top of your lungs. Don't you ever wonder why they keep the cork on your fork?
I don't have any sources, it's just my belief. My opinion. CC, in the beginning you took the moral high ground on cheating. Then you decided there were levels of cheating. Then, although the same evidence is attached to both bonds and sheffield, you decide that bonds continues to use steroids yet sheffield, ironically a player on your favorite team, has stopped. To back that claim up, nothing. You came on strong and ended with a whimper. You simply don't like bonds, and that's ok. There's a few players I have less than fond feelings for. But I admit it. You should do the same.
I have admitted that I don't like Bonds and I really don't. But it's still my opinion, strictly subjective, that Bonds is still doing some sort of enhancement drugs of some type. I can't prove it and I have no source for it other then it just looks like it to me. It's the same thing when it comes to Pudge and Sheffield (though I will admit that living here in Los Angeles means I haven't seen Sheffield much). It just doesn't look to me like they're unnaturally bulked up and it looks like Bonds is. It sort of like looking at a real wrestler and then looking at one of those bad actor body building "pro" wrestlers. It's obvious that the "pro" one are not getting those bodies just by working out and that's the same impression I get from looking at Bonds. He doesn't look natural to me. I still think I take the moral high ground when it comes to cheating as I was questioned as to how I'd feel if I heard that Kaline had cheated and I said it would ruin my whole image of him, but the case that was presented was someone else putting greenies into his coffee without him knowing it and that's not cheating on his part. So he's no less a hero to me. I don't see where that's a different degree of cheating. To me if HE didn't cheat then he's not a cheater.
You must have someone taking dictation. There is no way you could type these responses while keeping fingers in both ears and screaming "LA LA LA LA LA" at the top of your lungs. Don't you ever wonder why they keep the cork on your fork? I disagree. That doesn't make me wrong. It just makes me someone who disagrees with you. Fair enough?
CC, I was joking. Once you pull the "I don't have any evidence whatsoever except I just think it's true" card, any serious discussion is pretty much over at that point. You are clearly set on painting the scene as it suits your desire regardless of what is said here, which it is certainly your right to do. Just doesn't make the conversation very interesting.
No problem. I am one who tends to express pure opinions rather then facts and I can understand how that can be frustrating to some people when I say something like "Well that's just how I feel" rather then "OK here's the link to prove it". To me sports is a lot more subjective, emotional and opinionated then it is facts or statistic's.
To me sports is a lot more subjective, emotional and opinionated then it is facts or statistic's. Well, it feels disingenuous for you to claim the difference between Bonds and Sheffield is anything more than the shirt on their respective, overly-muscled backs.
Well, it feels disingenuous for you to claim the difference between Bonds and Sheffield is anything more than the shirt on their respective, overly-muscled backs. But I never claimed that. I said that it doesn't look to mean like Sheffield is doing anything illegal. That it doesn't look to me like he's unnaturally bulked up by chemicals. But that it does look like Bonds is. That's all. That's just what it looks like.
Well, it feels disingenuous Oh...and I'm sorry you feel that way.
That it doesn't look to me like he's unnaturally bulked up by chemicals. But that it does look like Bonds is. Hiring you would save MLB a fortune in urine cups.
That it doesn't look to me like he's unnaturally bulked up by chemicals. But sheffield's never looked unnaturally bulked up. So obviously that method doesn't work.
Works for me.
;-)
Hiring you would save MLB a fortune in urine cups. Hey, the commander doesn't come cheap.
Dr. Pepper comes in cans.
Hey, the commander doesn't come cheap. Just ask my wife.......
Works for me. posted by commander cody Well, that's fine. You can believe in santa claus, and you can believe the moon landing really happened in a giant hanger in a made for tv special. I wouldn't try to tell you other wise. But for sportsfilter, it's empty conjecture and probably better suited to your own blog. You came on very strong at the beginning of this thread, and at every point you've been shown the fallacies in your argument. For the final one you claim bonds still looks like he does steroids, which proves he still does them. But sheffield is under the very same accusations as bonds (in other words, the save evidence damns them both) and his body has not differed in any meaningful way. Yet you condemn bonds but not sheffield based on that line of reasoning. And in the end, when you have nothing left to back up your claims against bonds, when nothing you've said works anywhere other than inside your mind, you say "works for me". It would make you look much better commander cody if you just admit that you don't like bonds, and no argument, no light shed on the subject, will overcome that hate.
