FanDuel - WFBC

April 03, 2007

Florida 84, Ohio State 75: Florida holds off Oden, Ohio State to win its second basketball title and remains the only school to hold both the football and basketball championships. Let the debates begin: Greatest athletics program of all time? Is Noah still a lottery pick? Another year for Oden?

posted by PublicUrinal to basketball at 12:30 AM - 50 comments

Has Oden had a single game where we all just stood back and said, "Woo, damn, this kid is ON?"

posted by igottheblues at 12:53 AM on April 03

Brewer's probably the MVP of the team but he might be a bit of a tweener. I'd draft Horford first, but I think all 3 of them are top 20 maybe even top 15. Personally I don't think Ohio State's system is suited for Oden. It could be just because of how dominant Florida was at every position however. I hope he goes pro and I think he could average 16 12 3 as a rookie. Imo the worst possible thing that can happen is for Conley to get drafted by a terrible team and turn into a gunner, the rest of the players i'm not too worried about.

posted by chmurray at 02:20 AM on April 03

Talk about an embarrassment of riches. Too bad I'm not embarrassed. Wow. Just, wow. Billy Donovan is the best basketball coach in America. I'll refrain from trash-talking too much, but I must also note that with Florida's victory, my French-Lovin' Gator Sissy's also won the SpoFi NCAA Tourney Pick 'em! Hooray for MEEEEEE! And yes, it is great to be a Florida Gator.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 04:44 AM on April 03

One comment UCLA under John Wooden!!!! If you don't know why I say that look it up.

posted by coach at 06:22 AM on April 03

Has Oden had a single game where we all just stood back and said, "Woo, damn, this kid is ON?" If you didn't do that last night you weren't paying attention. He got 25 and 12 even though his guards were more interested in jacking up NBA threes than they were in passing to him. If they'd actually tried to pass to him he'd have had 40. And don't forget the dominant blocks. He owned the paint and got every UF post player in foul trouble. UF won because of their threes, not because of their post play. As Dean is remembered as the guy who kept MJ under 20 ppg, so Matta will be remembered as the guy who couldn't win a title even with Oden.

posted by tieguy at 06:31 AM on April 03

Let the big man score and keep him in the game. If Oden was in the Georgetown game they would have lost cause he slows down their offense and takes them out of it. I thought that plan was brilliant. If you watched, you would see that they didn't even try to stop him from scoring. The only time a foul was committed was when a guard tried to go to the basket. They kept reminding us in the game that Oden had only played 1 game the entire year over 30 minutes. That he wouldn't be there in the 4th Quarter and the way he was demanding to stay in the game ultimately slow the offense, didn't allow the guard to get hot early and they had to play catch up for 2.5 Quarters. What got OSU to the title game? Oden getting in early foul trouble and going to the Bench so Butler, Conley and Lewis could get hot. Keep the Big man in and out of foul trouble and you greatly increase your average of winning. Seems like Phil Jackson did this with Shaq when he coached the Bulls.

posted by warstda at 06:53 AM on April 03

If Oden was in the Georgetown game they would have lost cause he slows down their offense and takes them out of it. Wow, I disagree with this. Georgetown never really had a chance in the game against OSU because the Buckeyes did such a good job shutting down Jeff Green. Oden could only be countered when Hibbert was in the game to play him - even relatively big guys like Green and Dajuan Summers (6'10", 6'9") had no chance against him. But if Oden hadn't been a part of that game, the OSU scheme to shut down Green would've backfired because nobody would have been able to stop Hibbert. What got OSU to the title game was a great combination of inside and outside play - equal credit should go to the guards (esp. Conley) and the big man. Congratulations to Florida - it's been a long time since a college basketball team has had such a variety of weapons and such a cohesive sense of team. I was really hoping my Hoyas would force a rematch of our tourney game last year, but it wasn't to be. Maybe Jeff Green will take a page out of Noah's playbook and come back next year? Of course, if the Gators' core players decided to forgo the NBA for another season, the rest of D-1 should probably just stop trying right now.

posted by Venicemenace at 07:36 AM on April 03

John Wooden is the Wilt Chamberlin of college basketball, The sport will NEVER see his string of titles surpassed. Don't get me wrong I think Billy is a great coach for the run gun 3 point shoot game that the media now calls basketball. In modern day basketball you live and die by the 3 point shot, which by the way a good 6th grade player could hit 35% of the time. The line is WAY TO CLOSE. Florida won the ballgame because they hit more 3s than OSU, plain and very simple. Don't write Matta off, he is a very good coach. How long did it take for the current coach of the NC State to win his first national title. If you know any history about the game it took 6 or 7 tries for John Wooden to win one at UCLA. Last but not least, if I was a betting man I would not bet that Oden will leave OSU this year. Conley has already said he was staying and the 2 are best friends and roommates, don't be suprised if Oden stays. If he does stay OSU will be a monster next year. Check out their recruites for next year, another 7 footer, and the biggest suprise in the country, a 6'8" guard from Sandusky Ohio that broke every scoring record in the state. I have the feeling this is going to be a very juicy thread, lots of opinions.

posted by sportnut at 07:57 AM on April 03

And yes, it is great to be a Florida Gator. Yeah, that's why I was rooting against them, even though I rarely root against a team from Florida.

posted by bperk at 07:58 AM on April 03

Has Oden had a single game where we all just stood back and said, "Woo, damn, this kid is ON?" Echoing tieguy. Oden had a monster game. If he hadn't played so well, it was have been a complete blowout. Oden held up his end of the court- but his players couldn't hit ANYTHING. They were 2-17 on 3-point attempts at one point while FL made one every time OSU got within 6 or 7. The game was not Oden's failure, but rather the inability of OSU guards to hit any outside shot and FL's shooting prowess.

posted by jmd82 at 08:11 AM on April 03

I live in Ohio and never root for Buckeye anything. The Gators used speed, strength, smarts and prevailed. Passing the ball to Oden late was not an option; he was winded (in spite of his good numbers) and the Buckeyes were playing catch up. Great game plan! Go Gators.

posted by fourthreeforty at 08:18 AM on April 03

We're keeping our fingers crossed in Kentucky.

posted by louisville_slugger at 08:41 AM on April 03

Tough to top three major championships over basically a year and a day. I think Texas won the football and baseball titles in the same calendar year, but not the same academic year (noting that nobody really cares about college baseball anyway). I was and am impressed with UConn's achievement in winning the Men's and Women's hoops titles in the same year. Yeah, they're a one sport school, but they're wicked good at it. I can't believe it's unprecedented for a school to have won three NCAA championships in a year if you include the sports that don't get the notoriety of football and basketball (maybe there's an obvious one, but I can't think of any right now). Even so, how can you beat Florida's sustained dominance in the most high profile sports in an argument about best programs? Congrats to the Gators and their fans.

posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 08:56 AM on April 03

Dunno about Texas, but Miami won the baseball title in late 2000 and the football title in early 2001, so holding them both at the same time. (It was a good stretch to be a born Miami fan and a matriculated Duke fan.) Outside of football/basketball, I'm sure UCLA (99 titles cumulatively) or Stanford (also a tonload) must have held three titles at the same time. Duke was two games away in '99 (finals in mens and women's basketball and title in women's golf), and if Duke's relatively meager overall program has nearly done it, surely Stanford or UCLA has done it. Note that technically there is no NCAA championship in football.

posted by tieguy at 09:10 AM on April 03

The Gators are a fantastic team, and it's a tribute to their talent when they can step up and win when one of their stars, Noah, seemed to be a bit out-of-his-mind. The guy just looked too hyped-up for the big game, flailing around, and didn't really do a thing until a few free throws late. I seriously think Donovan will be heading to the Bluegrass State, because after winning back-to-back titles, it's really tough to improve on that in the coming years. Plus, the extra millions may be attractive to him, too.

posted by dyams at 09:14 AM on April 03

my French-Lovin' Gator Sissy's Although it pains me to do so... I must admit that the Gators were the better team on this night. They showed a lot of heart by snatching up almost EVERY loose ball. Maybe Noah can declare for the draft now and get that GAP in his grill tightened up! (had to have one)

posted by yay-yo at 10:32 AM on April 03

I seriously think Donovan will be heading to the Bluegrass State, because after winning back-to-back titles, it's really tough to improve on that in the coming years. Plus, the extra millions may be attractive to him, too. While the challenge of rebuilding a top program and having perhaps the preeminent gig in college hoops are certainly potentially strong motivators, I have read that Florida is going match whatever dollar figure Kentucky offers. I personally think it would be dumb for Donovan to leave Florida. Even if it's tough to improve on the back-to-back titles, I just have the sense that expectations will always be higher at Kentucky.

posted by holden at 10:45 AM on April 03

Actually, as winded as Oden may have been, he could have still shot at least 33%. That's twice the OSU average in three-point shooting. OSU was really outright stupid in that regard, and while Thad has done a phenomenal job getting them there, he did a shit job coaching that game. Florida was getting manhandled inside. Even though they were trying not to foul, all FOUR of their bigs were in foul trouble throughout the game. Keep pounding Oden and they can't do anything to stop him. They hardly tried. It seems as though the OSU guards simply felt they would eventually heat up, and while that could easily be true, the game showed that the risk was too great -- as opposed to sticking to the tried and true strategy of "Feed Oden." As for Florida, I highly doubt that the core returns. Humphrey is definitely gone (and he is easily their most underrated player -- there's a reason there's so much space to work with inside the three-point line) because of he is a senior. Brewer's family is going through some serious financial issues (although there's some questionable help coming from a "long time family friend"). And Horford/Noah/Green may just realize that repeating next year will be far more challenging (North Carolina could well dominate the shit out of the field next year -- or OSU, with Oden back and another very solid class coming in). I would be blown away if they did return. But then again, I'll be damn surprised if Donovan moves on to Kentucky too.

posted by PublicUrinal at 10:51 AM on April 03

I have read that Florida is going match whatever dollar figure Kentucky offers. That may get tough to do. His going-price just went way, way up. Even though I agree the pressure to win at Kentucky is incredibly high, I doubt they'll spare any expense if Donovan is who they truly think they need.

posted by dyams at 01:02 PM on April 03

In regards to the original comments at top of page....TRY UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA AT LOS ANGELES and 99 that is 99 NCAA Championships in all sports and no school is even close to them. Greatest programs of all time not hardly and really not even close. Like to know the scholartic requirements to go to Florida as compared to UCLA. Hey, guys we have started somethiing big here. Lets try to compare programs......

posted by ucla512 at 01:02 PM on April 03

Like to know the scholartic requirements to go to Florida as compared to UCLA. Then, look them up. You will find that the University of Florida is a very good school. TBH, get in here! I don't want to defend a rival.

posted by bperk at 01:10 PM on April 03

Glad to be here on SpoFi after seeing the Noah hate on other boards. Another year for Oden? Well he can compete but I'm not sure he's progressed. I hope he returns. Interesting article in Sunday's Los Angeles Times pointing out that it's not the playing contract money but the shoe contract money that can really sway a player's decisions. Re: Donovan to Kentucky? Maintaining Kentucky's program is considered more impressive, more challenging than carving out his own empire in Florida? I don't understand that thinking.

posted by Newbie Walker at 02:31 PM on April 03

ucla512: According to USNews.com (http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/t1natudoc_brief.php) who puts these rankings out every year, UCLA is the 27th best college and Florida is #47 among all National colleges based on several different criteria. Not a terrible disparity. Your argument is moot, however, when you consider that several athletes are still able to enter both of these programs when their application would be laughed at if it were included in the general pool. I say this with all due respect, Mr. Noah.

posted by PublicUrinal at 02:48 PM on April 03

PublicUrinal, The ranking of the college/ranking is not the ranking program I was talking, while, Florida a a very good school, and according to you or the usnewsedu....is 47th ...bottom line here is academics and the ranking that both schools try to keep up. Unless you have a 3.75gpa and at less a 1200 on your sat, UCLA won't even look at you. The jocks all have to maintain a 3.0 or the programs will not allow them to play. The University school systems in California are one of the hardest to get in. A jock is a jock at any school but the system at UCLA will not allow anyone to get in whether or not they play sports. Academic criteria is the determining factor at UCLA and has been since J.D. Morgan and Wilbur Johns were AD's and Chancellor Young was running the school in the 1960's. I know people and relatives that have attended both schools and it is harder at UCLA than at Florida. The medical school has no peers and the Law, Education,History,Languague, Engineering, Architecture rate with anyone in the country. And the last academic rating I read put UCLA in the top 3. bperk, I don't need to look up the academic requirements to Florida because I know they are not as high as in the University system in California. Both schools are outstanding in all their merits, whether, it is the sports programs or academics. Mr. Urinal you are pessing in the wrong pot. I respect the whole system of education in both Florida and California. Higher education is something all of us need to succeed in todays' world.

posted by ucla512 at 04:15 PM on April 03

Hey ucla,I'm glad the school taught you how to spell pissing.

posted by sickleguy at 04:41 PM on April 03

As far as I know, and I only know by reputation, UCLA does indeed appear to be a good school, in all likelihood better academically than the University of Florida. Not that it's up to the individual. As state schools, both are controlled by the state university bureaucracy. I certainly won't disparage UCLA's reputation here, one reason being that I don't come here to hear about admission standards from someone whose school can't beat mine. But that's just me. I graduated from the University of Florida. Oh, and it's "pissing."

posted by The_Black_Hand at 05:22 PM on April 03

Unless you have a 3.75gpa and at less a 1200 on your sat, UCLA won't even look at you. The jocks all have to maintain a 3.0 or the programs will not allow them to play. You made this up. The only way I know to compare schools based on student-athlete academic performance is the NCAA's APR. University of Florida has one athletic program failing to make the grade, while UCLA has three. Neither of them face sanctions because the NCAA is waiting until they have a bigger sample. Just so you know, the required GPAs to remain eligibility (GPAs lower than this lose points under the NCAAs system) is between 1.8 and 2.0 depending on their year.

posted by bperk at 06:21 PM on April 03

ucla according to usnews.com UCLA's medical school is ranked 18th for primary care and 13th for research and while those are both excellent numbers, they are certainly not the best. Like to know the scholartic requirements to go to Florida as compared to UCLA. For athletes it is probably about the same. As long as you aren't failing high school and will be able to manage the easiest class load there is either one will accept you.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 06:25 PM on April 03

The jocks all have to maintain a 3.0 or the programs will not allow them to play. Hee hee. Apparently they don't teach critical thinking at UCLA anymore. The only hard part of the admissions process was the goddamn grade reporting thing.

posted by yerfatma at 07:21 PM on April 03

Each university has it own required eligibilty and at UCLA it is higher than the NCAA's level. And as far as an easy class load, no such animal exists at UCLA. bperk the NCAA's APR is academic and I don't know how you or anyone could know about programs failing to make the grade because it is not subject to public knowledge. The NCAA's system, like the NCAA, sucks the big one. The education at any of the universities is only as good as you the student makes it. You get out of it what you put into it.

posted by ucla512 at 08:01 PM on April 03

Black hand, When your school puts up 9 more championships and 99 total then you can talk. 7 in a row means you have a long way to go before you can even bring up the subject. Florida deserved to win this year because they finished on top when it counted most at the end. I know how good Florida is academically and with there outstanding sports programs. But two titles don't mean jack when I go on campus and look at 99 NCAA trophies sitting in the Pauley Sports Center and 11 NCAA Championship banners floating down from the ceiling. When you start talking about athetic acheivement you had better come with more than just 2. The list goes on and on. You start at with basketball, track, waterpolo, softball, volleyball, soccer, tennis and gymnastics. And as far as NCAA Basketball goes John Wooden and the UCLA bruin run from 1964 thru 1975 has no equal. There isn't a coach in American that doesn't thank Coach because believe me he is the one that made March Madness what it is today. He won with no player over 6'5' and with 7'footers and also teams like Wicks, Rowe and Patterson 6'8", 6'7" 6'10" and beat a Jacksonville team that was suppose to beat them in the ground, but I remember seeing Sidney Wicks block Gilmores' shots time after time and UCLA ran them into the ground. Without UCLA BASKETBALL we wouldn't be enjoying all the March Madnesses over the last 29 years. Talk is cheap and you know what walks...Deeds Deeds Deeds. Most of the players today don't really know Coach Wooden. He didn't and doesn't talk trash and is going to be remembered as what the true meaning of college basketball is all about. His methods maybe old fashion and today somewhat behind the times but his teams then and now could be put together from different eras and still work as one. Hand, I want to apoloize if you took something I said wrong, my brother graduated from Florida and I still to this day love to stick it in his eye because he is always talking crap and the only way to shut him up is facts and deeds. So Congrats to the Florida basketball team and wait until next year.

posted by ucla512 at 08:27 PM on April 03

April 3, 2007 The past is all fine and dandy but how many championships has UCLA won in 2007?

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 08:38 PM on April 03

Most of the players today don't really know Coach Wooden. Do you know him ucla? Also, how many titles has ucla brought home in your lifetime? I'm all for being pumped about the tradition of one's school (and it seems that your school is the best), but there is only so much chest beating you can do if the last major sport title your school won was before you existed.

posted by brainofdtrain at 01:18 AM on April 04

When your school puts up 9 more championships and 99 total then you can talk. Wow, those grapes must be really, really sour. Tell you what, how about I just talk whenever I feel like it. As far as UCLA is concerned, yes, the 99 National Championships earned by the school are number one in NCAA history. Congratulations. If you'd like to write a column about the Bruins' athletic prowess over the years, I'd gladly read it. For the purposes of this discussion, however, we've been dealing with recent basketball championships; since UCLA hasn't won one of those in over a decade (and even then, Jim Harrick was breaking NCAA regulations), I don't know that you have much to add to the discussion. In fact, given that UCLA has been beaten twice in a row by the Gators on their way to National Championships, one might say it's bad form at best for you to come in here crowing about UCLA. And as far as history is concerned, you seem to be claiming that "March Madness" wouldn't exist without UCLA basketball. While I don't know if you can really prove that claim, I can tell you this: without the University of Florida, you wouldn't have Gatorade. So there. Also, when it comes to history, the University of Florida is the first school in Division I history to own both the men's basketball championship and the football championship in the same year. You may remember, they beat UCLA for that basketball championship. Since Pat Summitt picked up her seventh national championship last night, and shows no signs of slowing down, maybe Wooden will soon have company in the ten-timers club. I'm sure you and all the folks who revere the Wizard of Westwood will give her the respect she deserves, and not just wallow in sour grapes.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 06:23 AM on April 04

Also, how many other schools can brag about an alum winning Dancing with the Stars?

posted by bperk at 08:33 AM on April 04

ucla512, It is total suicide trying to relate to any tradition / history because as I have said before, any type of backround knowledge expressed related to a sport on this thread is for some reason a very negitive thing to express. As for the Jim Harrick problems with the NCAA, that was one case that UCLA probably has egg on their face, just like most major D-1 college programs. But if The_Black_Hand truly wants to deal with current basketball maybe he ought to recognize the fact that the Florida basketball program is being investigated by the NCAA as we converse. This investigation started a long time before the NCAA tournement started and grows daily. Everything ucla512 said about John Wooden was exactly right. The game today would not be where it is without contributions from coaches like Mr. Wooden, or Tony Hinkle, they are the pioneers. I think if there was a poll taken on who had the biggest inpact on basketball today wether it be current or past John Woodens name would be the most mentioned by far. I would challenge anybody out there to give me a more influential figure in basketball in the last 45 years than JW.

posted by sportnut at 09:46 AM on April 04

ucla: Your arguments about required eligibility would be much stronger if you could provide some proof. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm far from convinced and see no reason to take your arguments seriously given your obvious bias. That said, the sort information you speak of can be provided by a school as long as it is anonymous and there is no way to link a grade to a player, protecting their privacy. I don't understand how the APR fails to measure whether programs "make the grade," especially given that that is the primary purpose of the meter. Unless you're saying that nobody is qualified to determine if they're failing to "make the grade," in which case one way to meter it is how the program fares against most other similar programs and NCAA averages. UCLA does exceed Florida in many of the programs' Multiyear APR. But not enough to call their standards stringent. From programs with statistics available, UCLA has no programs that rank among the top 90% within their sport. See the public report for yourself: http://web1.ncaa.org/app_data/apr2005/110_2005_apr.pdf. Says the website: "... [The] APR awards two points each term to student-athletes who meet academic-eligibility standards and who remain with the institution. A team's APR is the total points earned by the team at a given time divided by the total points possible." Academic-eligibility standards are also set by the NCAA, so the measure is constant among all Universities. Next time you're on campus, stop by your athletics office or office of information and ask if they have any reports on GPAs per sport or other statistical analyses (i.e. SAT/ACT averages, modes, distributions, etc.). They may choose not to give it to you - in which case you can choose to appeal to whatever legislative system UCLA employs - but it would not be unfathomable for them to help you out.

posted by PublicUrinal at 09:59 AM on April 04

I can tell you this: without the University of Florida, you wouldn't have Gatorade. It would be Bruinade of course.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 10:43 AM on April 04

UCLA takes a few special steps to admitting athletes, according to this story.

posted by dyams at 10:46 AM on April 04

any type of backround knowledge expressed related to a sport on this thread is for some reason a very negitive thing to express. No, any suggestion that The Good Old Days were superior simply because they occurred in the past is met with derision and mockery. As it ought to be.

posted by yerfatma at 11:10 AM on April 04

I would challenge anybody out there to give me a more influential figure in basketball in the last 45 years than JW. Michael Jeffrey Jordan.

posted by Venicemenace at 11:38 AM on April 04

Red Auerbach. Define your terms. Dean Smith's coaching tree is probably much bigger than Wooden's; does that make him more influential? Larry Bird is The Other Son of God. I'm just throwing it out there.

posted by yerfatma at 11:42 AM on April 04

As it ought to be. And saves me from having to bring up that comparing Wooden's era with today's is ludicrous if only because of star player retention rates. Lot of good that did. If we're forced into a good old days discussion I'm saying that the art of the pass is best left dead. Simply to be difficult. on preview: Pete Maravich

posted by YukonGold at 11:51 AM on April 04

1. I did not suggest that "the good old days" were superior.I simple said that the foundation for the modern day game of basketball was laid by John Wooden. And I would bet that Dean Smith, Red Aurbach, Larry Bird, and MJ would agree with that 100%. In all honesty I don't think you can compare basketball in the NBA to that of college, they are much different games. Bobby Knight has a bigger coaching tree than Dean Smith so what has that got to do with anything. All the above except for Red Aurbach were drivers in the game of basketball, John Wooden refined the car they drove. Please define to me what "star player retention rate" is. I still think developing a computer game that pits the old era NBA/COLLEGE against the new era would be a money maker. It could be done as 2 different games.

posted by sportnut at 12:39 PM on April 04

Please define to me what "star player retention rate" is. Players staying in school for 4 years. I still think developing a computer game that pits the old era NBA/COLLEGE against the new era would be a money maker. It could be done as 2 different games. There used to be a web site for comparing any baseball team across eras (and other sports as well) but I forget the name. Think it was posted here years ago. The Sports Guy posted it as well. It may have stopped being free some time ago.

posted by yerfatma at 12:56 PM on April 04

Adolph Rupp had 4 championships before Wooden ever started. I think you could say he laid a little foundation as to how college basketball would be played. Sure Wooden added to the game. So did Smith, Knight, coach K, even Pitino. Give any of those coaches Kareem and Walton back to back and see how many titles they would have. I think Wooden was ONE of the best coaches ever, but to say he is the end all of college basketball is absurd. College basketball is much bigger than any one coach. The game has and will continue to evlove.

posted by louisville_slugger at 03:26 PM on April 04

There used to be a web site for comparing any baseball team across eras (and other sports as well) but I forget the name. you mean what if?

posted by goddam at 03:40 PM on April 04

Adolph Rupp had 4 championships before Wooden ever started. I think you could say he laid a little foundation as to how college basketball would be played. I'm pretty sure James Naismith belongs on this list. Also Phog Allen. Maybe Don Haskins? Wooden deserves all the respect he gets, but is he really the be-all end-all of college basketball? The more interesting question to me is, how did a thread devoted to Ohio State/Florida basketball end up being all about John Wooden?

posted by hawkguy at 04:30 PM on April 04

But if The_Black_Hand truly wants to deal with current basketball maybe he ought to recognize the fact that the Florida basketball program is being investigated by the NCAA as we converse. That's funny, try as I might, I can't find a story about this investigation. Kindly provide a link to something factual, so I can be enlightened. Thanks.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 04:33 PM on April 04

how did a thread devoted to Ohio State/Florida basketball end up being all about John Wooden? Because UCLA lost to Florida? ...again

posted by YukonGold at 05:48 PM on April 04

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