FanDuel - WFBC

August 01, 2006

Did Roger Clemens deserve a trade back to the Red Sox?: ESPN columnist Jayson "Check Out The Extra 'Y' In My Name" Stark thinks the Astros should have dealt The Rocket to Boston because of his stature as a player and because Houston is out of the race.

posted by wfrazerjr to baseball at 09:17 AM - 80 comments

You know, as much as I would have liked to see Clemens come to Boston yesterday... Clemens made his choice in May and he chose Houston.

posted by jerseygirl at 09:27 AM on August 01

This is all speculation by Stark, in my opinion. There aren't any quotes from any of the subjects. I'd like to know or even get a hint of what Clemens thought about the whole scenario.

posted by wingnut4life at 09:29 AM on August 01

Houston, (and Roger, I assume) had hopes of repeating last years come out of nowhere second half, but it doesn't look like it will pan out this year... Too bad, Roger is snakebit in Houston, he could have easily had another 15 wins since last season, if they would occaisionally score some runs for him, or hold a lead for him.

posted by mjkredliner at 09:33 AM on August 01

Too bad, Roger is snakebit in Houston, he could have easily had another 15 wins since last season, if they would occaisionally score some runs for him, or hold a lead for him. Karma, dude, Kar-ma. (Though I do feel great about being able to watch the career of this guy. Top five all-time?)

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 09:41 AM on August 01

How does Clemens deserve better? I realize we Sox fans are a spoilled lot, but I'd rather lose without him.

posted by yerfatma at 10:13 AM on August 01

Clemens made his choice in May and he chose Houston. I think there has to be some truth to the notion that Clemens found himself in a no-win situation with his "free-agency". If you leave Texas out of it he's getting pulled in three directions all of which have a history and a future. Houston was the easiest choice because of the family, a decision on his part to go to NY or Boston would villify him in the losing cities and create a circus around his return. Having said that, he's getting porked in Houston. Sunday's game is one of the more shocking things I've ever seen and must go beyond frustrating to maddening. Given that and Houston's place in the standings, I think Stark's point that management could have fixed "the mistake he made" signing with Houston by shipping him out is accurate to a certain extent. As wingnut points out, there's no solid facts here just more rumors circling a team (the Red Sox) who did nothing yesterday and are in their own version of damage control justifying the lack of a move. This could be as fictional as it is intriguing. I could have called Houston just as easily to see if Roger was available to pitch for my baseball team.

posted by YukonGold at 10:15 AM on August 01

How is Houston out of the race, but the Dodgers are still in it? The Dodgers record is only one game better than the Astros. And does no one remember the past two season when the Astros came out of nowhere to win the Wild Card each time and last year they advanced to the World Series. So don't count Houston out, I like their chances better than the Dodgers.

posted by tim at 10:19 AM on August 01

You know, as much as I would have liked to see Clemens come to Boston yesterday... Clemens made his choice in May and he chose Houston. Totally agree with you JG- this guy chose to go to Houston, and now he's paying for it.

posted by redsoxrgay at 10:34 AM on August 01

tim, "It ain't over 'till it's over", true enough.

posted by mjkredliner at 10:37 AM on August 01

Yeah the poor guy has won before but he deserves to win every year right! There are many ballplayers who have never won the big one not just in baseball but all sports who were great, so I am supposed to cry for this guy? Houston had their chance last year and failed, We move on.

posted by melcarek69 at 10:44 AM on August 01

And does no one remember the past two season when the Astros came out of nowhere to win the Wild Card each time and last year they advanced to the World Series. So don't count Houston out, I like their chances better than the Dodgers. At this point last year, Houston was 9.0 games back of St. Louis for the division, but already on top of the wild card race. This year, they are 9.5 games back of St. Louis (and in 4th place), but have 8 teams ahead of them for the wild card spot, of which they are 6 games back. Barring a miraculous run from (what is currently) a sub-.500 team and the collapse of exactly half the NL teams, Houston isn't going to repeat their run for the playoffs in 2006. Even if they go .650 for the rest of the season, they'll only end up with 86 wins.

posted by grum@work at 10:59 AM on August 01

I don't feel bad for Clemens, he's making a ton of money this year.... not like he needed it, but it doesn't hurt!

posted by zippinglou at 11:09 AM on August 01

I live in Houston. We all know how involved Roger is with his kids here, and what his contract allows (not going with the team on away games). By no means is Houston out of it, but the future does look bleek. He has got it made here. Why in the hell would anyone even think about going anywhere else? His son plays in the Astros organization. He has regular access to the ballpark, his wife is very involved with the community, has her own retail store here, the rest of his boys play at a very renown and competitive baseball complex relatively close to the house which he frequents quite often. This guy has it made. The town loves him pass or fail. And.......he is winding down his career. . I think that two guys (Clemens and Mclane) made a commitment and they are sticking to it.Despite what you read from Jason Stark.

posted by Big Ed at 11:12 AM on August 01

Thanks for the local perspective, Big Ed. Stark is either trying to fill a writing quota, or just rocking the boat. I for one am glad that Clemens is still in Houston. He can hang out with his family now. How cool is that?

posted by wingnut4life at 11:35 AM on August 01

I don't feel that the Astros owed Clemens a trade to anyone. If he wanted to pitch for Boston or any other team, he should have signed with Boston or New York and not the Astros. Houston is still in the wild-card chase and Rocket is needed there - in Houston. This race is wide-open and anyone of 8 teams can still win it. I've been a Clemens fan for 20 years, but he took the money that the Astros were waiving in front of him.......... No one forced him to take it. But, he still needs Houston's offense to give him some support - they're AWFUL when he pitches.

posted by Sportsfan0535 at 12:49 PM on August 01

I agree with practically everything said above. Baseball, Houston, etc. doesn't owe Clemens any wins, championships, etc. He retires then makes these grand comebacks with minor league tours, etc. but forgets to factor in the most important thing: The Astros' offense, and team for that matter, are playing like crap and underachieving at the speed of light. It sucks being him and getting zippo as far as support, but his mega-contract with all it's stipulations should ease his mind a bit.

posted by dyams at 12:56 PM on August 01

Roger Clemens doesn't deserve any more than he's already got. He wanted all the perks of being paid like a top-class pitcher without all the messiness of actually being a functioning part of a team. And he got it. The Astros could have got two other much-needed pieces for a team that could have contended this year for what they're paying Rocket to show up on game days and leave the stadium the minute his last pitch hits the catcher's mitt. He's making obscene money considering he doesn't even notice there's a team around him. Who cares if they're winning or losing? Not Roger. He'll only notice that his win totals aren't going up every time he refreshes his personal homepage between innings. Pff. Whatever. To borrow a line from someone I know, I wake up a half hour earlier every day just to hate Roger Clemens more.

posted by chicobangs at 01:20 PM on August 01

Pff. Whatever. To borrow a line from someone I know, I wake up a half hour earlier every day just to hate Roger Clemens more. I'm not sure what it is, but that sentiment is very appealling in a fan-perspective kinda way.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 01:25 PM on August 01

. but forgets to factor in the most important thing: The Astros' offense, and team for that matter, are playing like crap or maybe he feels that the astros offense ISN'T the most important thing. I don't know, seems to me: personal happiness playing near his home, huge contract, agreement to only have to show up for games he pitches, agreement to not have to travel as much, ability to play in the same organization as his son.....all would factor in more than how the Astros are doing. He may well have expected the Astros wouldn't make it to the playoffs this year when he made his decision (it wouldn't have been a great leap) As chicobangs said...if he was a team guy, he wouldn't just show up in the clubhouse every 5th day.

posted by bdaddy at 01:27 PM on August 01

I am here to take some time out of my life, and my work, to comment on a guy (very selfish at times) who makes tons more than me and really never has to work another day in his life. So here is my bitter comment today: WHO CARES! To add a sub-topic to this post......... Who is better? Maddux or Clemens? Maddux is more cerebral, Clemens has more raw talent.

posted by panteeze at 01:54 PM on August 01

Clemons and the Astro's made their bed together, let them lay in it together for a while longer. If the Astro's are built upon catching lighting in a bottle every year they have no one to blame when they experience a drought. An arguement based upon "they did it last year" ignores the statistical reality of where they're at in the standings this year (the year that matters). I think Astro management forgot the Casey Stengel adage "Gettin' good players is easy. Gettin' 'em to play together is the hard part."

posted by skydivedad at 02:09 PM on August 01

I agree, bdaddy, I admire Roger's abilities and career, but some fella named Nolan Ryan was never too good to make road trips, or sit in the dugout on days he wasn't scheduled to pitch, and he had kids and a wife, too. Same with Maddux, Glavine, Johnson, and any other 40+ year old pitcher who is still playing. Maybe Weedy's Karma theory isn't so far-fetched.

posted by mjkredliner at 02:12 PM on August 01

panteeze, you think Roger never worked a day in his life? You don't last as long as he has in MLB, and still bring the heat, by being a couch potato.

posted by mjkredliner at 02:18 PM on August 01

So here is my bitter comment today: WHO CARES! If you don't care, don't post! "Who cares" posts are quickly becoming my biggest SpoFi pet peeve. Maddux is more cerebral, Clemens has more raw talent. "More cerebral" - is that code for "not as good"? If so, then I agree with you. Also, I don't think it's apt to call Clemens' talent "raw" - I'm pretty sure that talent has been grillin' up nicely for over two decades.

posted by Venicemenace at 02:23 PM on August 01

Who is better? Maddux or Clemens? Clemens is in the Walter Johnson/Lefty Grove category of "greatest of all time" discussions. Maddux is in the Cy Young/Pete Alexander category of "inner circle hall of fame" discussions. No slight on Maddux, but he's no Clemens. The next question is where will Pedro Martinez end up? In the Clemens section or the Maddux section?

posted by grum@work at 02:27 PM on August 01

You don't last as long as he has in MLB, and still bring the heat, by being a couch potato. No you don't. The Clear and the Cream sure help. But Selig would much rather go after BB than this so-called hero of baseball. This guy has no loyalty, no sense of team and his head is WAY TOO BIG!

posted by cjets at 02:53 PM on August 01

Agree with grum . . . Maddux was great in his prime, but Clemens is a once in a lifetime power pitcher. When all is said and done, he will be one of those irreplacable pitchers. There will be others, like Maddux, who have great careers, but either lack the power or the consistency of Clemens.

posted by awrigh01 at 03:15 PM on August 01

Who is better? Maddux or Clemens? Maddux has a much higher body count, if that matters to you.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 03:17 PM on August 01

No you don't. The Clear and the Cream sure help. But Selig would much rather go after BB than this so-called hero of baseball. Evidence for Clemens using PEDs: Number of positive tests: 0 Number of "eyewitness" accounts of him using PED: 0 Number of "tell-all" books that implicate him: 0 Number of investigative journalism reports that link him to PEDs: 0 Number of disgruntled former teammates that claim he used them: 0 Number of statistical anomalies that would "prove" he used them: 0 "Book'im, Dano!"

posted by grum@work at 03:24 PM on August 01

Who is better? Maddux or Clemens? Maddux is infinitely more deadly with a bowstaff. Clemens has the better career totals, but in my books, Maddux is in the conversation for top ten of the last 100 years. It just so happens that I think the Rocket is in the top five. I think if you factor in Maddux's impact on his teammates, the arguement over who you start wanting more during their peak gets a little more interesting. The lone gunman, or the player/coach? (though it has to be said, Clemens was not universally loathed by his pitching teammates - Roy Halladay has said that they conversations he had with Clemens when he was coming up helped him shape his practice regime.)

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 03:26 PM on August 01

like Maddox, who have great careers, but lack the power or the consistency of Clemens posted by awrigh01 at 3:15 PM CDT on August 1 Greg Maddox was never a "power pitcher" and never pretended to be one. As for consistency, 17 straight years of 15+ wins stands in defiance of your analogy. 15 Golden Gloves and 4 Cy Youngs. "There will be others, like Maddux" No there won't.

posted by skydivedad at 03:29 PM on August 01

hell no they should not have traded him!!! houston has put alot of time and money into having him on their squad. at one point in time he was begging to leave boston, why would he want to go back if he hated it that much. it just goes to show how much character the man has, all he wants is a ring. big deal. a ring is not going to keep him out of the hall. dont get me wrong, he is(or was) a great pitcher, but, he has to show some class in sticking with his team, whether they are winning or losing

posted by canes09 at 03:31 PM on August 01

I am in the Maddux camp. 17 straight seasons of 15+ wins, only 2 short of that last year, and a real shot to get there again this year? A career 3.07 ERA and over 3000 Ks. Or maybe it's just that as a Cards fan I've seen more of him, but in his prime there wasn't a pitcher that you wanted to face less. Clemens has aged better, but in their primes I think Maddux was in the class of Koufax and Gibby at their primes.

posted by edub1321 at 03:38 PM on August 01

but in his prime there wasn't a pitcher that you wanted to face less. You want to talk "best in his prime"? Try Koufax or Martinez on for size...

posted by Venicemenace at 03:43 PM on August 01

Or maybe it's just that as a Cards fan I've seen more of him im a cards fan as well, and i really didnt like seeing them in their prime or neven now for that matter

posted by canes09 at 03:44 PM on August 01

at one point in time he was begging to leave boston, why would he want to go back if he hated it that much. Because he left after personality conflicts with management and ownership. Since then the team has been sold and new management has taken over. Dan "twilight of his career" Duquette cooling his heels in the suburbs = no more feud with Boston, at least from Roger's perspective.

posted by Venicemenace at 03:47 PM on August 01

edub, did you edit your comment after the original post, or is my reading comprehension really that poor today? Apologies just in case.

posted by Venicemenace at 03:49 PM on August 01

maybe the personality conflicts came from the rocket himself. he was a better pitcher then than now, if he could get them to the series then, how is he going to now, especially now that he has gotten older and slower

posted by canes09 at 03:53 PM on August 01

VM, I will agree that Martinez from 1998-2002 is in the discussion for greatest prime too, but what I meant is that both Clemens and Maddux have sustained their greatness (Clemens a little better recently than Maddux), but I think in their primes I would have liked to face Maddux less. When I look for a great pitcher, I think of both longevity and how great they were in their primes. Martinez had a great prime, so to speak, but I would like to see how his body holds up over the next 4+ years before putting him in the class of Maddux and Rocket.

posted by edub1321 at 04:05 PM on August 01

grum, I would add: Number of times admitted using "the cream and the clear" during grand jury testimony? Goose egg.

posted by mjkredliner at 04:39 PM on August 01

If the feeling is that certain players "deserve" to be traded to certain teams, than wouldn't it follow that Pedro Martinez deserves to be traded to Tampa Bay? He could then look at Don Zimmer every day!

posted by INOALOSER at 04:45 PM on August 01

maybe the personality conflicts came from the rocket himself. he was a better pitcher then than now, if he could get them to the series then, how is he going to now, especially now that he has gotten older and slower Are you really suggesting that adding Clemens to the rotation of a pennant contender, especially one that has injuries to multiple starters, wouldn't make a difference? Clemens was invited to the Rangers-Red Sox season opener by Tom Hicks but spent most of the time before the game in the Boston clubhouse palling around with everyone. Tom Werner obsequiously courted him with Hollywood style videos during the off-season. Al Nipper, acting Sox pitching coach, is one of Clemens' buddies. So your idea that he wouldn't get along with the current Red Sox organization is based on....what, exactly? All that said, this is a moot point....unless the Sox fall behind the Yanks, the Houston situation gets worse, and Theo works some waiver magic...

posted by Venicemenace at 05:03 PM on August 01

So your idea that he wouldn't get along with the current Red Sox organization is based on....what, exactly? Maybe he misunderstood that there's a different ownership from the time Clemens left until now. Even prior to signing with Houston, Clemens was pretty positive about Boston in general.

In an interview with the pitcher during the playoffs, Clemens spoke fondly about Boston and the many friends he still has in the area. ''Here I am, still pitching," Clemens said in October. ''Debbie and I were looking forward to the day where we could just go up to my old neighborhood [Framingham] and just hang out with some of our friends up there."

posted by jerseygirl at 05:27 PM on August 01

Clemens doesn't "deserve" anything.he had all off-season and half of the regular season to decide.he made his choice,he has to live with it.

posted by mars1 at 05:53 PM on August 01

I don't think that you can ever feel bad for a guy that is getting something like $10 million to play half a season and got to choose pretty much from whatever club could afford him. Especially when you consider all of the ridiculous perks that he is getting. As a Sox fan, however, you can always use another top-shelf starter going into the playoffs because the way it looks now they might have to go with John Lester starting in game 5 of the ALCS in Yankee Stadium. Lester is off to a great start but I think its safe to say he's no Clemens

posted by kyrilmitch_76 at 05:58 PM on August 01

If this argument is used for A-Rod, then it applies here: Clemens is making $10 million for what's essentially a 5-month season. He pitches every 5th day, and he doesn't even bother to show up on off days or for road trips. So (doing the math) Rocket's getting paid $333,333 for each day he deigns to go to work. (That's about twice what A-Rod makes per day*. Apples & oranges? Maybe, but it's also dollars & dollars.) And for that, you get a clock-puncher for whom the words "team" and "we" and "us" aren't even in his vocabulary. If I'm paying someone that much, I want them there every day doing whatever they can for the rest of the team (not "his team," the team), with pom-poms and a miniskirt if necessary. Shit, even Baseball's Greatest Asshole Barry Bonds ain't afraid to put on a dress and goof off with his teammates if it helps chemistry. Rocket isn't even aware that the ball-fetching oompa-loompas that dress like him out on the field even are a team, let alone one of which he's a member. Seriously. No one owes Rocket shit. *assuming $25 mil and 150 games played. YMMV.

posted by chicobangs at 06:22 PM on August 01

or chicobangs if you want to make statistical assumptions lets pencil Clemens in for 5 wins for the season (given his 2 wins in 8 starts) and just call it a nice round $2,000,000 per win. I take it back I think the Sox should stick with guys like Lester and Papelbon and find a creative way to spend the $9.5 million change

posted by kyrilmitch_76 at 07:26 PM on August 01

He pitches every 5th day, and he doesn't even bother to show up on off days or for road trips. You have to factor in that he throws during day 3 of his "off days" in order to keep the arm loose, plus he maintains a rigorous workout schedule that allows him to pitch so well at age 43. if you want to make statistical assumptions lets pencil Clemens in for 5 wins for the season (given his 2 wins in 8 starts) and just call it a nice round $2,000,000 per win. That's why wins is a terrible measuring stick for a pitcher. Do you really think he's pitched so poorly that 2 wins out of 8 starts really defines his quality this season? This is the same logic that says Nolan Ryan pitched "poorly" in 1987 because he went 8-16, ignoring that he led the league in ERA, ERA+, K, K/9, H/9 and K/BB.

posted by grum@work at 08:19 PM on August 01

Hey, I jog in the mornings too. I don't expect to get paid for it, except by being in better shape.

posted by chicobangs at 08:23 PM on August 01

panteeze, you think Roger never worked a day in his life? You don't last as long as he has in MLB, and still bring the heat, by being a couch potato. mjkredliner, you have amazing insight, or not, where did I ever mention Roger being a couch potato? If you don't care, don't post! "Who cares" posts are quickly becoming my biggest SpoFi pet peeve. My biggest SpoFi pet peeve is these trivial posts about ridicuously over paid atheletes and what they do or don't deserve. My second pet peeve is with with people who don't respectfully let you have an opinion if they don't agree with you.

posted by panteeze at 09:15 PM on August 01

My second pet peeve is with with people who don't respectfully let you have an opinion if they don't agree with you. That opinion sucks. Drop it now.

posted by grum@work at 10:23 PM on August 01

Clemens is in the Walter Johnson/Lefty Grove category of "greatest of all time" discussions. Maddux is in the Cy Young/Pete Alexander category of "inner circle hall of fame" discussions. I disagree. Not necessarily that you have Clemens ranked above Maddux, but that you consider them in 2 different classes. Whichever you think is better, they are 3 and 4 behind Walter and Lefty. Compare some of Maddux's ERAs versus league average and it is truly incredible.

posted by bdaddy at 10:35 PM on August 01

Maddux and Clemens are argueably 2 of the best, if not the 2 best pitchers of their generation. That they are even being compared to one another is wrong. They both have 2 different pitching styles. I agree that Clemens doesn't seem to realize the meaning of "team" and "Us" and "We," but he has a family like evryone else also. He gets paid enough to go on the road with the team and cheer for them, but when you are a player of his caliber, you get catered to.

posted by tbone22 at 11:14 PM on August 01

I think Clemens deserves it if thats what he really wanted however i dont think he wouldve liked that too much. would he be the #1 guy in Boston? #2? And by the way, if you compare stats he is the best pitcher of all time plus hes got cy youngs, all-star games and world series rings

posted by bronxbomber at 11:47 PM on August 01

Well, it doesn't matter that he doesn't understand "Team" "We" and "Us". It is in his contract and the entire team knew it was. No one expected him to be on the road. I am not even sure the Astros got him to get them to the playoffs. I think it was for ticket sales at home games. Why else would they have not made any significant moves by trading him and getting something that they can use in the future?

posted by kidrayter2005 at 11:49 PM on August 01

I know it's not the same sport or anything, but I always thought the adage was that You Play To Win The Game. I mean, if the Astros' brain trust wants to hamstring their finances for years by putting a few extra butts in the seats every fifth day for a few months, that's their business. But the fans of that team have to understand that the price of watching an increasingly aged Rocket pitch is twofold: (a) with that money, there are probably two solid everyday role players you could have picked up to help you win some more games (all season long!) and maybe make another actual playoff run, and (b) you're consciously skewing the dynamic of the team so that it's centered around someone who's barely aware of that team's existence. Winning teams fill stadiums too, especially when they made the World Series the year before and have generated some solid goodwill. Instead, the Astros' front office let Rocket & the Kendricks Brothers hold them hostage for the first two months of the season before nailing down a five-month, eight-figure contract that precludes Rocket from even having to sully his delicate tootsies with locker room dust. I hope those extra few heinies in the bleachers for those half-dozen games in July & August were worth skewing the dynamic of the franchise like that. As a Blue Jays fan, I really wish the Red Sox had pressed to get this deal done.

posted by chicobangs at 12:31 AM on August 02

Shit, even Baseball's Greatest Asshole Barry Bonds ain't afraid to put on a dress and goof off with his teammates if it helps chemistry. Actually, I believe he was just doing that for some pub before his ESPN (un) reality show hit the airwaves. ball-fetching oompa-loompas that dress like him out on the field Holy shit, that's funny. Funnier still, because I can actually see Rajah standing there, thinking to himself, "who the hell are these guys, why are they dressed just like me, and why don't their names all start with 'K'?"

posted by The_Black_Hand at 06:29 AM on August 02

But the fans of that team have to understand that the price of watching an increasingly aged Rocket pitch is twofold: (a) with that money, there are probably two solid everyday role players you could have picked up to help you win some more games (all season long!) and maybe make another actual playoff run, and I don't think this is the case with the astros. They didn't reserve this money for Clemens. He didn't sign until after the season started. Reality is, the Astros, without Clemens, would have a $20 million cheaper roster..they wouldn't be adding $20 million worth of talent because they considered that extra money.

posted by bdaddy at 08:31 AM on August 02

mjkredliner you have amazing insight, or not, where did I ever mention Roger being a couch potato? No insight at all, thank you, I was pointing out something that any baseball fan knows, that Roger's off season training regimen, as well as his in-season training, and schedule, (not so much now, ha ha) are work. If you don't think so, then I suggest you are wrong.

posted by mjkredliner at 09:48 AM on August 02

grum, do you think it is sheer coincidence that Nolan's unrewarded year (1987) was also for Houston? Not much run support for him, either!

posted by mjkredliner at 10:00 AM on August 02

As much as I'd like to see him in Boston, he doesnt deserve to be traded. He had Boston begging him before he signed with Houston. I'm not so sure he would even want to go...if he did he had the chance.

posted by louisville_slugger at 10:05 AM on August 02

The Dodgers would have to leapfrog four teams to make the playoffs as well.

posted by tim at 10:13 AM on August 02

May I ask one question, when did Jason become the mouthpiece for Clemens? I have yet to hear Clemens complain about his present situation. Seems as though he's happy with where he's at and the amount of money he's receiving. I find it amazing how sportswriters and sports commentators of today simply enjoy stirring up controversy where there really is none. Clemens made his choice a little while back, now can we leave it at that?

posted by WLC at 10:29 AM on August 02

sheer coincidence that Nolan's unrewarded year (1987) was also for Houston Given the 100% roster turnover, a different park and the fact the '87 team played half their games indoors whereas the current Houston squad plays very few (any?) games indoors, I'd say yes.

posted by yerfatma at 10:45 AM on August 02

My biggest SpoFi pet peeve is these trivial posts about ridicuously over paid atheletes and what they do or don't deserve. My second pet peeve is with with people who don't respectfully let you have an opinion if they don't agree with you. If you have a problem with FPP's about "ridicuously over paid atheletes" (sic x3), then I advise you to stick to the college sports FPPs. You managed to hit on one of the other recurring themes that drives me nuts, people complaining about how much pro athletes get paid. Welcome to a capitalist free market, panteeze. If you hate it so much, I hear President Chavez is creating a socialist utopia in Venezuela and he likes it when Americans come and visit. It's one thing to voice an opinion, another to join in a conversation saying "Who cares?" Obviously, the other people who are posting care. If you don't, move on. It just bothers me when pro athletes are accused of being selfish and overpaid, or their work ethic questioned, for having a skill and making the most of it in the marketplace. It's total hypocrisy.

posted by Venicemenace at 11:43 AM on August 02

Yes I know, yerfatma, I was making a feeble attempt to point out the irony of it.

posted by mjkredliner at 11:55 AM on August 02

Sorry.

posted by yerfatma at 12:50 PM on August 02

My biggest SpoFi pet peeve is these trivial posts about ridicuously over paid atheletes and what they do or don't deserve. There are now 67 comments in this thread. You must hold yourself pretty damned high to say everyone else in here who has voiced an opinion is "trivial".

posted by wfrazerjr at 01:17 PM on August 02

Actually, I agree with Panteeze in principle. I honestly have no idea why anyone would care what these guy's are making. Performance is but one facet of the marketplace - location, timing, relative FA strength, TV deals, ticket sales, general revenue all come into play. In fact, when you think about it, the very idea that anyone of these guys is "paid what is deserved" or "performs to a level that justifies the paycheque" is ludicrous. I'm interested in what they make as an armchair GM putting together a fantasy squad, or in a vein of thought that informs me what the possible trades and signings my team could possibly do, but I find it rather pointless to try to marry the idea of future performance in a sport to the paycheque. There are now 67 comments in this thread. You must hold yourself pretty damned high to say everyone else in here who has voiced an opinion is "trivial". I believe the suggestion is that the opinion is trivial. Not necessarily the person stating it. And only a certain percentage are putting everything in the context of how much money Rajah is making. Juuuuuuuuuust saying, is all.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 01:47 PM on August 02

I believe the suggestion is that the opinion is trivial. Not necessarily the person stating it. Here's Panteeze's exact statement: My biggest SpoFi pet peeve is these trivial posts I'm saying the only way a post can be trivial is if it's not given any attention. It's obviously not true in this case.

posted by wfrazerjr at 04:46 PM on August 02

If you have a problem with FPP's about "ridicuously over paid atheletes" (sic x3), then I advise you to stick to the college sports FPPs. You managed to hit on one of the other recurring themes that drives me nuts, people complaining about how much pro athletes get paid. Welcome to a capitalist free market, panteeze. If you hate it so much, I hear President Chavez is creating a socialist utopia in Venezuela and he likes it when Americans come and visit. It's one thing to voice an opinion, another to join in a conversation saying "Who cares?" Obviously, the other people who are posting care. If you don't, move on. It just bothers me when pro athletes are accused of being selfish and overpaid, or their work ethic questioned, for having a skill and making the most of it in the marketplace. It's total hypocrisy. Wow, I am taking a beating here. Thanks Weedy for some support. What pro atheletes make is ridiculous! I am not complaining about that at all. I am stating my opinion that I do not care what Roger does or does not deserve. More power to him for what he has done. Just curious Venicemenace, how do you excatly define a capitalist free market? Is it a market where everyone is able to compete on a level playing field? Or is it a market where lawmakers take donations to become elected and then pass legislation favoring those who helped them thus creating an unfair market? Why don't you run down to your local government and ask for some tax support to build a new stadium and start your own baseball league. I'm sure you will be welcomed with open arms. I chose long ago to forgoe major sporting events in person. Tickets are way out of line and yes, I think they are overpaid including Roger. Why are they overpaid? Because people are willing to fork over hard earned dough to either watch someone else live out their fantasy or just escape from their own miserable lives. Man there are many big egos on this post. Get a life people, its only an opinion, not life or death.

posted by panteeze at 04:49 PM on August 02

I'm saying the only way a post can be trivial is if it's not given any attention. It's obviously not true in this case. Come down off your horse frazer. One of the most difficult things to do here is communicate your intent. I admit I blew this one by not clarifying my message. I do not think people who post here are trivial. I think some of the posts are not worth so much attention though. But like so many posts on this site, the original message gets lost and people tend to pick apart your comments as if they are the ultimate authority on the subject. That to me is humorous.

posted by panteeze at 04:56 PM on August 02

Panteeze, why do you feel the need to make it personal? Just because I disagree with you on whether or not athletes are overpaid does not (necessarily) mean I am egotistical, have no life, consider myself the ultimate authority, or think this is a "life and death" issue. We simply disagree. Can't you constrain yourself to a response on the merits and leave the vitriol out of it? To answer your question, when I reference a free market in this case, I mean that players earn what they earn because professional baseball is a multi-billion dollar industry for which they are the key laborers. They are the very best in the world at what they do and have extremely specialized skills, like other highly-paid professions: brain surgeons, say, or crack trial lawyers. Although one might like to see an inner-city school teacher making Clemens money, there is a much greater demand for Clemens' services and the market sets the price for his employment (according to the various factors Weedy described). In general, there is a limited supply of baseball talent and it is in very high demand. Therefore, baseball players make bank. I don't see that as wrong or unjust, and I disagree that municipal support of franchises makes this market somehow unfair - those deals enrich owners far more than they enrich players. Yet players always take the heat from disgruntled fans, and I think THAT'S unfair.

posted by Venicemenace at 09:45 PM on August 02

If you hate it so much, I hear President Chavez is creating a socialist utopia in Venezuela and he likes it when Americans come and visit. Can't you constrain yourself to a response on the merits and leave the vitriol out of it? Panteeze, why do you feel the need to make it personal Enough said Venice.

posted by panteeze at 10:59 PM on August 02

Is clemens paying stark? Is clemens surprised by the lack of support? Doesn't he remember last season? Didn't he watch most of this season? Even though part of me finds beautiful irony in the possibility that clemens might end his career in meaningless games, it is kind of sad to see him waste his last year (I'm guessing). But he made his bed. He could have easily come to boston or ny. He's never had a problem worrying about public perception before, so I doubt it had anything to do with it now. He simply has it too good in houston to give it up. You have to factor in that he throws during day 3 of his "off days" in order to keep the arm loose, plus he maintains a rigorous workout schedule that allows him to pitch so well at age 43. I think chicobangs and I are running neck and neck with our hatred of clemens, but you've got his pr position locked up grum :)

posted by justgary at 11:11 PM on August 02

I think chicobangs and I are running neck and neck with our hatred of clemens, but you've got his pr position locked up grum :) I was on the other side of the fence after Clemens skittered away from the Jays in 1999, so I know where you come from.

posted by grum@work at 07:42 AM on August 03

His weiner?

posted by yerfatma at 08:52 AM on August 03

Yeah, telling you to go to Venezuela was a bit much (intentional hyperbole) but at least it's somewhat relevant to your comments, as opposed to your super-creative "get a life" retorts. I advise you to take a little more time working on your posts in the future if you don't like getting blowback. Anyway, I think this thread is toast. The Rocket rules, no matter how many fan bases he stabs in the heart!

posted by Venicemenace at 09:56 AM on August 03

Because people are willing to fork over hard earned dough to either watch someone else live out their fantasy or just escape from their own miserable lives. If you seriously believe that I'm not sure why you're here.

posted by justgary at 11:40 AM on August 03

Anyway, I think this thread is toast. The Rocket rules, no matter how many fan bases he stabs in the heart! Venicemenace, your intentional hyperbole is at least somewhat relevant to your comments, as opposed to your super-creative "I'm right! End of discussion!" retorts.

posted by chicobangs at 03:20 PM on August 04

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