March 20, 2006

Wily Mo Pena traded to BoSox for Bronson Arroyo, Cash : Reds finally make a deal to improve their pitching. Wily Mo should platoon well with Nixon in RF.

read story | posted by MPeter to Baseball at 11:04 AM CDT (40 comments total)

I haven't decided if I like this or not for Boston.

posted by jerseygirl at 11:17 AM CDT on March 20

Doesn't fit in with the whole "Money Ball" approach, but they now do have someone to fill in for Nixon during the inevitable DL stints.

I think I would have liked to see the Sox deal Clement though.

posted by MPeter at 11:36 AM CDT on March 20

Ok, I've gotten over the initial shock, assessed the situation and players, discussed it about the watercooler and I'm for it. Moving Clement might have been the more obvious idea, but I believe they have tried and haven't had any luck with that.

So Willy Mo, he'll take over for Nixon next year (or sooner?) and I'm impressed with the scouting on him. Plus, he's 23. He'll also benefit working with Papa Jack, so I'm all about it now.

Thanks for the memories and good times, Bronson, you were a big part of the 04 team!

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/scouting?statsId=6522

posted by jerseygirl at 11:46 AM CDT on March 20

Doesn't fit in with the whole "Money Ball" approach

I don't see that. Kid's never gotten a full season of at bats (and he won't this year either), but he has good power and gets on base at a decent clip at age 24. The Red Sox had seven starters and needed a platoon right-handed OF for Trot. My only concern is, in the limited number of games I've seen, WMP was vying for Worst Defensive Outfielder on the Reds, which is no small feat (Ken Griffey, Jr. excepted, obvs). Right field in Fenway is the largest in the majors; I wonder if they'd shift Manny back to RF and let Wily E Pena play the smaller field. You can carp about Manny's fiendling, but when he wants to play defense, he can. I'm not so sure about Pena.

Like JG said, thanks for the mammories, Bronson.

On preview: Hmm . . . ESPN's scouting report likes his defense. Interesting.

posted by yerfatma at 11:57 AM CDT on March 20

I'm a Reds fan so I was able to see Wily Mo play quite a bit. The man has power, but he also misses the ball quite a bit. His fielding does need to improve but I believe it will in time.

I am happy with this trade because the Reds desperately needed some pitching, and I have always been a fan of Arroyo. Hopefully he can bring some of those good memories to Cincy.

posted by jmbraun773 at 1:15 PM CDT on March 20

Manuel in right field? Are you serious! ? The man can't run for too long without injuring a hammy.... I would not touch him from LF. He has already learned the tricks of the Wall, and that way he doesn't have to run as much. Peña is young and can be coached to improve.... He will make a good combo with Trot!

posted by zippinglou at 1:16 PM CDT on March 20

As a Yankee's fan we will definitely
miss arroyo. He is our rivera......

posted by Grrrlacher at 1:18 PM CDT on March 20

it did take me by surprise, but i think this is a good move for all involved. the reds definately need a good young starter, and adding some speed and consistency in the outfield for trot's injuries will also help out the sox.

besides, the sox have an abundance of pitchers, doesnt hurt to deal one of them out to improve on another area of the team.

plus now theres a little room for the rocket to move back to boston!

posted by DJ8881 at 1:22 PM CDT on March 20

The man has power, but he also misses the ball quite a bit.

Which seems like a neat (if simplistic) summing-up of "Moneyball".

Manuel in right field? Are you serious!

1996 RF 149
1997 RF 146
1998 RF 148
1999 RF 146
2000 RF 93

posted by yerfatma at 1:46 PM CDT on March 20

Wait a damn minute here! Who's going to wear our white-trash-I'm-not-Kid-Rock cornrows now? Who, I ask you?

posted by The_Black_Hand at 2:29 PM CDT on March 20

I'll miss Bronson, and it's sad to see yet another member of the ws team leave. I won't, however, miss the feeling that every single pitch he throws has a good chance of being yanked out of the park. He makes me want to grab a bat myself.

Hope he has a good year with the reds.

posted by justgary at 2:39 PM CDT on March 20

arroyo waseither very good or ver bad eor 5 innings.The sox strenghened themselves where they need it. The question now is will they keep Adam Stern?What are Theos next moves? stay tuned

posted by arturo at 2:53 PM CDT on March 20

Who's going to wear our white-trash-I'm-not-Kid-Rock cornrows now? Who, I ask you?

LOL, you beat me to it. I wonder how those 'rows are going to play in Cincy.

posted by stofer71 at 2:54 PM CDT on March 20

white-trash-I'm-not-Kid-Rock cornrows
Eminem said that if you pull those big ole' ears back, his teeth fold back.
JUST KIDDING! STOP THROWING THINGS! jeeesh...

posted by wingnut4life at 3:00 PM CDT on March 20

It's funny, but living in Boston when Manny first went there, I remember there being a big issue as to whether he would play left. He really wanted to play right field, as he had with Cleveland. That said, the fact that Manny hasn't played right field in a number of years (looks like he got 7 games in there for Boston in 2002), combined with the fact that RF in Fenway is not the same as elsewhere and Manny is on the wrong side of 30 to be making a rightward shift on the defnesive spectrum, and I say he should probably stay in LF.

Also -- and perhaps this is the first time I've ever disagreed with yerfatma when it comes to matters of baseball -- I don't think a .300 OBP is getting on base at a decent clip. Unless the comparison is to Neifi Perez.

posted by holden at 3:03 PM CDT on March 20

As a Reds fan, I've seen Pena play off and on for a year or two. The guy has tremendous power, however, strikes out a lot. He has great speed and a rocket arm, but does have trouble with routine plays. I think the more experience he gains, the better he'll get. I think this kid will be a great all-around ball player once he matures in a couple years. I don't like to see him go, but we need pitching real bad. I hope Arroyo has a good year, we need someone to step up and lead the pitching staff.

posted by Desert Dog at 3:04 PM CDT on March 20

I don't think a .300 OBP is getting on base at a decent clip. Unless the comparison is to Neifi Perez.

Yeah, I should have provided the caveat: "for a 23 year-old power hitter". I don't think ~.300 is getting it done either.

The man has power, but he also misses the ball quite a bit.
The guy has tremendous power, however, strikes out a lot.

In no way am I advocating for Rob Deer or Russell Branyan, but you guys have to get over the K thing. If Joe Morgan and Buster Olney can claim certain outs are "productive", I think its only fair we nerds can claim a strikeout is no worse than any other non-productive (blech) out.

posted by yerfatma at 3:12 PM CDT on March 20

Thanks for the MAMMORIES yerfatma???? I hope they don't hinder his head first slide into second!!!!!

posted by joromu at 3:21 PM CDT on March 20

Who's going to wear our white-trash-I'm-not-Kid-Rock cornrows now?

Much like Kid Rock, Bronson is a lot more country than hip-hop. Those days are gone like Tuesday (with the wind).

What I don't get about this deal is why the Red Sox are including cash? Good thing the Red Sox have it to give away.

posted by YukonGold at 3:37 PM CDT on March 20

If Joe Morgan and Buster Olney can claim certain outs are "productive", I think its only fair we nerds can claim a strikeout is no worse than any other non-productive (blech) out.

this could be the near death experience i had with some frosted flakes from this morning talking, but are you suggesting that joe morgan has some value as an analyst?

posted by ninjavshippo at 3:41 PM CDT on March 20

What I don't get about this deal is why the Red Sox are including cash?

Red Sox are sending cash because Pena is super cheap (looks like he is making just upwards of a million this year) and the Red Sox now probably control his rights at a potentially lower than market price (I'm not sure if/when he's arb eligible) for the next several years. The deal probably wouldn't have been done without the cash. My guess is that the $$ are what kept this from being a Clement-for-Pena deal, although Clement is projected to be the better pitcher (at least this year).

posted by holden at 3:56 PM CDT on March 20

Clement's contract is definitely one where you'd expect cash. I think that they have Pena under control through 08. It's only 1.5M no big deal just odd, guess Cincy just really needs that money.

joe morgan has some value as an analyst

I don't know about everyone else, but finally hearing Joe this weekend on the WBC brought back so many emotions. Mainly, spring is finally here.

posted by YukonGold at 4:22 PM CDT on March 20

Jerseygirl is right, Papa Jack might just do for Wily Mo what he did for David Ortiz.

posted by Venicemenace at 4:26 PM CDT on March 20

yerfatma, my point was that Pena, with some maturity, will realize there are times when contact is a good thing. He does strike out a lot, that's a fact. I imagine Boston's hitting coach will work with him to shorten his swing when there's a need to put the ball in play.

posted by Desert Dog at 4:27 PM CDT on March 20

Matt Clement - $6,500,000 (2005)
SEASON -- IP ---- H ----- R -- ER --- HR -- BB -- SO --- W -- L --- ERA
2004 -- 181.0 -- 155 -- 79 -- 74 -- 23 -- 77 -- 190 -- 9 -- 13 -- 3.68
2005 -- 191.0 -- 192 - 102 - 97 -- 18 -- 68 -- 146 -- 13 -- 6 -- 4.57

Bronson Arroyo - $1,850,000 (2005)
SEASON -- IP ---- H ----- R -- ER --- HR -- BB -- SO --- W -- L --- ERA
2004 -- 179.2 -- 171 -- 99 -- 80 -- 17 -- 47 -- 142 -- 10 -- 9 -- 4.03
2005 -- 205.1 -- 213 - 116 - 103 - 22 -- 54 -- 100 -- 14 - 10 - 4.52

They trade Arroyo plus cash for Peña... I would have rather dumped Clement and his bigger salary... but I bet no one would take him being worth that much... Plus, Arroyo sings better!

I will say this though, Clement had a slow start last year with the injury and all.... He should put up very good numbers this coming season. Heck, he should be close to making the 20 win mark.... The key will be for him to stay healthy!

posted by zippinglou at 4:50 PM CDT on March 20

I never meant to imply anything positive about Jay Em.

posted by yerfatma at 6:43 PM CDT on March 20

Minor firestorm brewing in Boston. Arroyo recently signed a cheapo extension with the Sox, pledging his loyalty to the city. Although he was never promised anything, an urban legend abounds that a "gentleman's agreement" was breached. There is no evidence to support such a claim, but it persists. Consequently, the results of this poll suggest a lot of Sox fans are unhappy with the trade.

However, they're wrong. It's another great move by Theo Epstein. Sox needed to unload a starter and find someone to platoon with Nixon in RF against lefties (he is atrocious when facing southpaws, while Wily Mo is off the chain). Even if Wily Mo only maintains his current numbers, he provides a great bat against lefties, not to mention speed and defense sufficient to spell any outfielder in a time of need.

Why is it important for the Sox to be strong against lefties? Think of a tall, ugly hurler residing four hours south...

In addition, Arroyo was the odd man out in the rotation after a terrible spring, and using him as the spot starter/long man steals innings from Jonathan Papelbon, which is stupid.

WMP may never pan out to be as good as some suggest, but this deal helps the Sox for this year and could help them immensely in the future.

posted by Venicemenace at 7:43 PM CDT on March 20

Hard not to feel bad for Arroyo here. Maybe he shouldn't have been so naive about the cutthroat nature of the game, but still, you hate to see him effectively punished for being loyal to the club.

posted by boltman at 7:53 PM CDT on March 20

He wasn't being punished for being loyal.

posted by jerseygirl at 8:02 PM CDT on March 20

he took a below-market salary because he wanted to stay in boston. now he's not going to be in Boston anymore and he's still stuck with a below-market salary. It seems unlikely (although anything's possible) that he would have done that without some assurance that Boston wasn't going to move him first chance they got. That seems a little sad to me, if not especially surprising given the nature of the sport.

posted by boltman at 8:09 PM CDT on March 20

As a Cards fan, I'm not sure how to feel about Arroyo, but I can tell you, Ks or not, I was NEVER comfortable facing Pena. He always found a way to stick us.

Ciao, WMP!

posted by wolfdad at 8:18 PM CDT on March 20

WMP can sometimes do the job, but is pretty much never your best option. Same goes for Wily Mo Pena.

Seriously, I've always been kind of down on this guy because his bad contract handcuffed the Reds for a long time and stunted his development, leaving him on the Reds bench for the last several years. The ESPN scouting report posted by jerseygirl is much more favorable than most others I've read. I've seen him Canseco some balls in the outfield pretty badly. For sure, the guy has some pretty high upside, but all his learning has to happen on the job at the cost of the major league club. I guess Boston is willing to see how high that price will be.

posted by BullpenPro at 8:44 PM CDT on March 20

he took a below-market salary because he wanted to stay in boston

Whoops. Remember this when the next thread about overpaid athletes starts up.

posted by yerfatma at 8:46 PM CDT on March 20

Red Sox do not give No Trade Clauses. That being said, at the time they signed Arroyo, they didn't have any plans to trade him and told him as such. That was four months ago. It has been said that his agent strongly advised him against signing the contract, but Arroyo did so otherwise. Yes, he wanted to stay in Boston, but he'd have to understand (and his agent would have told him) that without a No Trade Clause, he was vulnerable to be traded.

It makes sense that they'd want to see how the plethora of pitching performed in ST, or if they could accomodate Wells desire to go west or move Clement instead of moving versatile Arroyo. I believe they wanted to trade Clement badly but his 9m/yr contract was prohibitive to any other team without Boston eating 75% of it. I would not be surprised if they tried to move Clement in this deal instead of Arroyo, but the cash considerations became too expensive.

I also feel that this is building for 2007 and beyond and definitely makes the team better in the longhaul.

posted by jerseygirl at 8:47 PM CDT on March 20

Sox needed to unload a starter and find someone to platoon with Nixon in RF against lefties (he is atrocious when facing southpaws, while Wily Mo is off the chain)

.291, 7hr, 18rbi, .345obp v. LHP is slightly above average. i'm sure this guy has Tremendous Upside Potential (or so we've been told for the last 7 years), but i would save all chain related superlatives for another player, lest we say something that makes us look silly.

posted by ninjavshippo at 9:09 PM CDT on March 20

As a Cards fan, I'm not sure how to feel about Arroyo, but I can tell you, Ks or not, I was NEVER comfortable facing Pena. He always found a way to stick us.

wolfdad -- perhaps you are thinking of that moon shot he hit off of Morris last year? Other than the Rickie Weeks shot up into Big Mac land, that was the biggest homer for sure against the Cardinals last season.

posted by holden at 10:20 PM CDT on March 20

I won't...miss the feeling that every single pitch he throws has a good chance of being yanked out of the park. He makes me want to grab a bat myself.

Hear hear. Love the kid to death, but I held my breath a lot when he was on the hill. How he got away with hanging so many curveballs in Fenway still mystifies me.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 5:02 AM CDT on March 21

.291, 7hr, 18rbi, .345obp v. LHP is slightly above average

Counting stats like HR and RBI don't say a lot for a guy who didn't play a full season. I'm too lazy to look it up, but wasn't his SLG like .591 against lefties?

posted by yerfatma at 5:45 AM CDT on March 21

Must be referring to 04?

posted by jerseygirl at 6:08 AM CDT on March 21

Arroyo's agent, Greg Clifton, will be on WEEI at 9. You can listen to streaming radio on weei.com - but go a few minutes earlier to set up an account.

posted by jerseygirl at 6:10 AM CDT on March 21

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