FanDuel - WFBC

April 22, 2007

The New Color Line in American Baseball is Green: As Jackie Robinson festivities highlight the declining number of black Americans playing pro ball, San Francisco Chronicle columnist C.W. Nevius offers a different reason for the shift: To develop skills and get noticed by scouts, young baseball prospects in the U.S. today must participate in expensive traveling teams and "showcase" tournaments like Perfect Game in Iowa, which prices the game out of the reach of many families. "At one point, we charted the first five rounds of the draft over the last eight or nine years and highlighted every black kid," said Perfect Game organizer Jerry Ford. "We found that with the exception of two or three players, every one of them had attended a Perfect Game event.'

posted by rcade to baseball at 09:46 AM - 60 comments

This is a sad commentary on the state of the "National Pastime". However,like so many other fields of endeavor in America money now seems to be the paramount factor.Still, I believe if a new "Say-Hey"kid appeared he would become a big star regardless of his economic background.

posted by sickleguy at 11:37 AM on April 22

You hit it right on the head, sickleguy. Well done.

posted by wdminott at 12:25 PM on April 22

Let's not forget kids on the street in places like the Dominican Republic play with sticks and stones. Is it really fair to say anyone in America is disenfranchised?

posted by charlatan at 02:43 PM on April 22

With Jackie Robinson Day calling attention to the experiences of African Americans in baseball, the sports media seemed determined to manufacture a story about the “crisis” of racial inequity in the national pastime. Story after story bemoaned the fact that only 8.4% of big-league players were African American in the 2006 season. I’ll help flesh out the demographic picture of Major League Baseball beyond this one number. According to MLB, “27.4 percent of the players on last year's Opening Day rosters were from foreign countries.” This means that only 72.6% were born in the United States. Some simple algebra shows that 11.6% of American-born baseball players were African Americans. According to the 2005 American Community Survey of the U.S. census, 12.8% of the American population is Black. This makes for a difference of 1.2& between the United States and Major League Baseball. In other words, the percentage of Black players in Major League Baseball mirrors the general population pretty closely. Does a 1.2% disparity constitute a crisis? I get the feeling that other groups of Americans are more underrepresented than Blacks. Although the number of Asians and Latin Americans in baseball continually increases, how many Asian-Americans or Hispanic-Americans do we see? Nevious quotes a few interviews to make his point about inequity, but seems to ignore some significant realities. The very title of the article, “Why Baseball Is Now So White”, is ludicrous. The 27.4% of MLB players born in foreign countries are not coming from Europe. The number of Black players may be decreasing, but that’s largely because baseball is becoming more diverse, not less. I’ve worked in urban Los Angeles high schools for 10 years, and I see more support from Major League Baseball than any other professional league. The Reviving Baseball in Inner Cities (RBI) program supports young baseball (and softball) players in year-round tournaments. The NFL, on the other hand, is as absent from the high schools as it is from Los Angeles as a whole. As in most areas, opportunities to participate in baseball exist in this country. If kids or their parents are participating in basketball (less expensive) or football (more expensive) leagues instead of baseball leagues, it’s usually because they’re making a choice, not because they’re being forced out of baseball.

posted by Adam at 03:41 PM on April 22

You know sometimes i wonder if we are being a little unfair to bring Jackie Robinson into discussions like this, as the author does. I think that while Jackie loved baseball, he wasn't hoping to break the color barrier for only baseball. I think he was doing something much bigger than that. He was redefining the way america looked at race in the sportsworld, and in general. To me Jackie's legacy is intact today, as we not only see black athletes suceeding in the sports world, and in some (eg basketball and football) they are dominating. Given the stats listed by Adams, it would seem that there is a much bigger disparity between the % of white athletes in the NBA than the black athlete and baseball. I'm in no way claiming any racial reason for this disparity. Just pointing out that Jackie still has changed alot. I know b-ball/football aren't as old as baseball in the US, but without Jackie's courage, could we honestly expect the black athlete's dominance in basketball/football we have today? I don't think so. I think that Robinson would be somewhat sad to see the diminished interest for baseball among the black community today, but overjoyed at how far they have come in other sports.

posted by brainofdtrain at 05:18 PM on April 22

Let's not forget kids on the street in places like the Dominican Republic play with sticks and stones. I think one of the points Nevius is making is that a Dominican kid can still get noticed by scouts, no matter a lack of resources, while a kid in the same financial circumstances here would be overlooked. So if you're poor and athletic in the U.S., you're not choosing baseball because baseball ain't choosing you. If it's true, I wonder how much youth baseball compares today to hockey, which has always required more parental expense for child athletes.

posted by rcade at 05:36 PM on April 22

I think Adam is right on here. I personally am so sick of hearing how under represented African Americans are in anything. People need to understand the term minority. This means there are less of a certain race in a population. So why should they make up a larger percentage of a sports population? Another thing that bothers me is the fact that if a white male said he is disturbed by the fact that there are not enough white people in the NFL or NBA he would be considered a racist. That is a double standard and it is unfair. Especially since there is a larger population of white males in society (so why don't they make up a larger percentage of the sport?).

posted by clemsontigersfanatic at 10:00 PM on April 22

Wow! This explains the rise in Latin American ball players! j/k.

posted by zippinglou at 12:36 AM on April 23

So why should they make up a larger percentage of a sports population? Because sports aren't representative of the population of the whole. Ten percent of Major League players are from the Dominican Republic, a country of nine million people. Nine U.S. states have more people than that. There are demographic trends at play here, one of which is pursuit of a sport because you don't have as many economic opportunities as other groups. Look at NFL rosters these days -- a majority of the league is black. If you're tired of hearing about American blacks in baseball, this is not the time of year for you. Jackie Robinson's historic achievement in April 1947 will make this news every single year at this time.

posted by rcade at 07:20 AM on April 23

To me Jackie's legacy is intact today, as we not only see black athletes suceeding in the sports world, and in some (eg basketball and football) they are dominating. I think that is a great point. Sixty years ago, black ballplayers were fighting to break into the major leagues. Now you've got a situation where black athletes aren't playing baseball because they are choosing to play other sports, and MLB is in some ways tripping over itself to court black players. There is no indication that potential baseball players from poor black families have any greater disadvantage than those from poor white families. Nobody is lamenting the dearth of cornfed farm boys from middle-America in the game, the Fellers and Mantles, but by my quick look the ratio of players from suburban California is astounding. I'm not, by any means, saying, "When are we gonna start feeling sorry for the white guys." What I am saying is Jackie did his job, and what he fixed ain't what's broken now.

posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 08:22 AM on April 23

What I am saying is Jackie did his job, and what he fixed ain't what's broken now. The issues are intertwined. Maybe people should be lamenting the lack of cornfed farm boys. If professional baseball is becoming a privileged only league, that should concern everybody who loves baseball. If the most visible evidence of this is the dwindling number of black people, I say great. If the Jackie Robinson festivities make more people aware of the problem, then even better. Any change in how recruiting is done to aid black people is going to help poor white people as well. "I've got some incredible athletes at Richmond, but I am teaching them things now, at the age of 15, that they should have learned when they were 8,'' Kurtz-Nicholl said. What do you make of this statement from the article? Does it really matter at what age people are looking these specific skills, so long as they do learn them?

posted by bperk at 08:43 AM on April 23

If the Jackie Robinson festivities make more people aware of the problem, then even better. I agree totally. I guess what I was trying to say is that it is far more appropriate to say, "Let's celebrate what Jackie did and look at what needs to be worked on next," than it is to say, "We're letting down Jackie's legacy by not getting more black players into baseball." The problem we have today, it seems to me, does not reflect poorly on Jackie's legacy at all -- in fact, in a way it emphasizes his accomplishment. If you are black, you can certainly choose to play baseball (and MLB will welcome your decision). If, for economic reasons, you are alienated from advancing in baseball, you have other outlets in sports you can turn to -- not all doors are closed. The economic issues aren't Jackie's legacy -- the breadth of opportunities are. You are right that the economic problem needs to be recognized and addressed, and that it is not exclusively a racial issue. Does it really matter at what age people are looking these specific skills, so long as they do learn them? If you learn to read at age 15, you are pretty likely to spend the remainder of your developing years behind the curve a bit. There are fundamentals in sports that work the same way. Yeah, you will probably learn them eventually, but the likelihood that you are going to go very far in the sport without already having them ingrained at 15 is pretty small. Guys like Pujols and Aaron could overcome that -- David Eckstein, not so much.

posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 09:11 AM on April 23

So why should they make up a larger percentage of a sports population? Because sports aren't representative of the population of the whole. Ten percent of Major League players are from the Dominican Republic, a country of nine million people. Nine U.S. states have more people than that. There are demographic trends at play here, one of which is pursuit of a sport because you don't have as many economic opportunities as other groups. Look at NFL rosters these days -- a majority of the league is black. Precisely. Adam, you're missing the boat on this one. It's not about equitable representation - it's about legacy and generational difference in the black sports community. Baseball has fallen off the wagon for some reason, and the article is positing one. The stats being ignored in you post are the ones that illustrate the percentage of Black MLB players fifteen years ago, vs. today. It has gone down at almost a 2 to 1 rate.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 11:06 AM on April 23

There are fundamentals in sports that work the same way. Yeah, you will probably learn them eventually, but the likelihood that you are going to go very far in the sport without already having them ingrained at 15 is pretty small. Guys like Pujols and Aaron could overcome that -- David Eckstein, not so much. I guess I was thinking that it is the easy way out to say that it is too late at 15 for someone to pick up those skills. It seems like it would matter more how naturally athletic or coordinated they were in determining how quickly they could master certain skills. It definitely seems that way for the skill positions (like QB) in other sports. There are just so many things in baseball (like vision) that don't seem to be a skill, but a natural talent. Of course, someone who has both skill and talent may be the best of both words, but in comparing talent and skill, the former seems to be the better option.

posted by bperk at 03:02 PM on April 23

I wonder what the percentage of minority vs. majority in this blog are? I'm betting more toward the whites here. ADAM, your blog hit the nail on the head, I love it when people bring stats and fact to the table instead of their biased media-orchestrated opinions. Bperk, you mentioned the difference between 8 and 15 and what the big deal was...when you are young your body develops at an astonishing rate compared to the rest of your life. So when you start early, the child has a better foundation to build on, and can then work on making themselves the best they can be. Personally, when I moved to Indiana at the age of 12 or 13 I had to drop baseball as one of my best sports cuz no-one plays here, and play basketball, because that is what the region demands...so while I had some talent and natural ability, I had to learn a whole new game that my new friends had been playing since kindergarten, and it hampered me from being a good player in high school(I couldnt shoot, what good is a 6"1' G/SF who cant shoot 3's?) I say all that because pro sports now is a lottery, if you start early enough, spend enough on the tools and the coaching, your kid with above avg talent and ability might make it. As for worrying about what races are dominating what, leave it to an elitist West Coast liberal writer to try to make a big deal about something that isnt. Baseball may be our 'national pastime" but it is being beatin' out by more popular sports; football and basketball, heck you can argue a point for racing as being more popular right now. Why do you think they are so many asians and latinos playing in the league now? The NFL is now the "New American pastime" and I embrace it 100%! Go Colts, best team in da league! (very biased opinon)

posted by dezznutz at 03:02 PM on April 23

zippinglou: Very funny, I didnt get it the first time I read it, but I got it the next go round.

posted by dezznutz at 03:10 PM on April 23

ADAM, your blog hit the nail on the head, I love it when people bring stats and fact to the table instead of their biased media-orchestrated opinions. And I love it when people just hear what they want to hear. Adam's stats are meaningless in this case. He is making an entirely different case that casually ignores historical representation in baseball by Black Americans. The decline is real - just because it isn't echoed by a corresponding decline in the population doesn't mean shit. You guys is missing the point.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 03:49 PM on April 23

You guys is missing the point. Yeah, but at least they're not elitist West Coast liberal writers.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 04:03 PM on April 23

It (black population in baseball) has gone down at almost a 2 to 1 rate. Who cares? Why does this even matter? Until America stops looking at things in black and white we aren't going anywhere. Why does it matter what % of black ball players there are. For that matter why does it matter how many white players there are. Baseball is still a business and the business is to win and make money. Owners are going to look for the best talent available and last time I checked high school baseball was free to play. I would think owners would know this and if they thought there was an untapped wealth of talent they would use it. The best players are on the field and it doesn't matter what color they are or where they are from.

posted by clemsontigersfanatic at 04:39 PM on April 23

Until America stops looking at things in black and white we aren't going anywhere. And as long as some segments of America pretend that race is always irrelevant, we'll never get past racism. My generalization can beat up your generalization! Why does it matter what % of black ball players there are. Actually, what's being remarked upon is the percentage of African-American players, not the percentage of black players. Why does it matter? Clearly it doesn't, to you. But some people care, for their own reasons -- many, I suspect, because it means that baseball is changing. Of all the sports played in the United States, none has the historical depth and breadth of baseball, and many people look on the years following the breaking of the color barrier and the subsequent influx of highly talented African-American players into the Major Leagues as some of the very best years of baseball. Now the demographics show that things have changed. Don't blame people for being nostalgic -- this is baseball we're talking about here.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 07:25 PM on April 23

And as long as some segments of America pretend that race is always irrelevant, we'll never get past racism What the hell does that even mean? We've haven't pretended race is irrelevant. But race should be irrelevant. When we start looking at people man to man instead of black to white and choose people based on who's the best candidate not who's a minority we'll be better off. The black race or brown race (they aren't from Africa so why are they called African Americans?) or whatever you want to distinguish people with more pigmentation than myself as, is just as capable in achieving goals as the white race. So why do we cripple them and insult them by giving them extra privlages? Doesn't that just say they can only get it done with help from an outside force? That is insulting. The day we judge people on their character and ability rather than their percentage of the population or color, America will be a stronger and better place for everyone. And we are Americans. If you were born in Africa and moved to America you are an African American. If you are born in America you are American, not Irish, Italian, German, or any other nationality. American! We need to look at everyone as American!

posted by clemsontigersfanatic at 08:51 PM on April 23

Clemson, you're entirely missing the point, and you may want to take your affirmative-action-ax elsewhere to grind. If you read the linked story, you'd realize this isn't about giving anyone any "extra privlages". It's about an entire segment of the population being priced out of what was once (not so long ago) considered the national pastime. No one is saying "We need to get more African Americans playing baseball." What they are saying is, "Gee, why are there so fewer African Americans playing baseball these days?" And this particular reason is the ridiculous prices it costs to play baseball these days. It's probably safe to say plenty of white folks are priced out of the game, also. Just so happens that last weekend was the anniversary of a major historical event that deals with race and American history. But this point has been made several times already in this thread and you've ignored it. Not sure why I think I could change your mind.

posted by SummersEve at 05:42 AM on April 24

Precisely. Adam, you're missing the boat on this one. It's not about equitable representation - it's about legacy and generational difference in the black sports community. Baseball has fallen off the wagon for some reason, and the article is positing one. The stats being ignored in you post are the ones that illustrate the percentage of Black MLB players fifteen years ago, vs. today. It has gone down at almost a 2 to 1 rate. Weedy, the reason you think we missed the boat is because you hopped on the wrong one. The point was not that there should be equitable representation in sports. It was that the sports media had distorted the facts by selectively reporting one statistic in order to make a story, and that this statistic was misleading. Not only is the decline real, it's going to continue - not because "Baseball Is Now So White", but because baseball is increasingly international. While just over a quarter of major league players are foreign-born, that share is more than doubled in the minor leagues. If you're tired of hearing about American blacks in baseball, this is not the time of year for you. Jackie Robinson's historic achievement in April 1947 will make this news every single year at this time. Rcade, I'll never tire of hearing about Jackie Robinson; I'd just like to see more honesty and responsibility in journalism. This article distorts facts, as did many of the reports and commentaries that I heard at the time.

posted by Adam at 08:05 AM on April 24

No one is saying "We need to get more African Americans playing baseball." What they are saying is, "Gee, why are there so fewer African Americans playing baseball these days?" And this particular reason is the ridiculous prices it costs to play baseball these days. It's probably safe to say plenty of white folks are priced out of the game, also. Just so happens that last weekend was the anniversary of a major historical event that deals with race and American history. Exactly so. I live in a rural area where the population is about 98% white, and where people really, really love baseball. The local area is very sparsely populated -- the regional high school, which covers more square miles than any other district in the state (and even brings in some students from southern Vermont, plus a good slug of school-of-choice kids from down in the valley), only has about 550 kids in grades 9-12 -- yet this area fields two to three Mickey Mantle teams and two to three Connie Mack teams every summer. These kids aren't the Nintendo generation: they get up at 5 am to milk cows and toss haybales and build stone walls all summer, and then turn out to play baseball into the evening. They're athletic and hard-working, and forty or fifty years ago, that might have been enough to get them somewhere. But these kids are poor, by the modern standards of what it takes to participate in competitive sports. Their coaches are all volunteers, farmers and loggers whose primary contribution is a love for the game and a lot of time on the diamond. They have no weight room, no access to scientific training and conditioning techniques. Their families can't afford to serve them wild coho salmon bursting with omega-3s. They can't afford travel teams or camps or the kind of coaching that makes the difference nowadays. A few of these kids will manage to play in college; a very few of them will play a summer or two in a collegiate league. But that's it. The point has been made about Dominicans playing baseball with sticks and rocks. While I'm sure that still goes on, it's also the case that the DR gets a lot of attention from major league organizations, who scout promising athletes from a pretty young age. My sense is that scouting really isn't there in the United States any more. Instead, we've got the big-money semi-pro hothouses like the IMG Academies, where the affluent can send their offspring and live out their vicarious dreams of athletic excellence. Is this the best way to develop athletic excellence? Well, more on that in another thread, if I ever get around to making the FPP.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 08:25 AM on April 24

last time I checked high school baseball was free to play I dont know if y'all read this in my first post but this is the main point. No one is getting priced out of baseball. Baseball recruiters will continue to look at high school players and if you work hard ( which I think is a foreign language to much of todays youth) you will get noticed. So dont give me this people are priced out of the game crap because they are not. The whole issue is of no importance and is just another reason to make the African American race seem like victims. They are not victims and have the same opportunities as everyone else IF NOT MORE.

posted by clemsontigersfanatic at 10:03 AM on April 24

Tell me, Mr. Fanatic, what is the name of the person who wrote the linked story? (Hint: to find out, you'll have to click the blue text under the date at the top of this page.)

posted by SummersEve at 10:14 AM on April 24

last time I checked high school baseball was free to play No one is getting priced out of baseball. Baseball recruiters will continue to look at high school players and if you work hard ( which I think is a foreign language to much of todays youth) you will get noticed. I'd love to know if you have anything besides assertion to back any of this up. Bring it, please. (oh, and if your latest was in response to my comment? read the damn comment, for god's sake)

posted by lil_brown_bat at 10:30 AM on April 24

I can't figure out what you guys are trying so hard to disprove. There are less black people playing baseball at the high levels. We can all agree on this right? The article suggests that scouting has changed in the USA to the point where it can be argued that one of the chief reasons is money - for equipment and coaching. This was formerly not a barrier because equipment and coaching were more available and cheaper in the past. Doesn't seem to be much controversy to me. Now I for one typically side on the 'choice' team. I believe less kids are interested in baseball. Period. Sure a lot of them may play it at some point in their youth - but it's not a number 1 sport in the minds of newer generations. But I think that may not be the only reason, and it's worth looking at some others. And I think the bigger picture is how America is changing and is no longer seemingly in step with the national pasttime, and that if money is the barrier then perhaps, Jackie ain't so far in the past.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 10:58 AM on April 24

Well, that's all well and good, but some of us are not so good with the brief and cogent arguments. (That unfortunately doesn't stop some of us from attempting them.) 1. There are fewer African-American players in the majors because there are more Latin American and East Asian players. There are also fewer Euro-American players. 2. More scouting money is being spent abroad, so the scope of American scouting has dropped off. As a result, players now have to go to the scouts instead of the other way around, and that is leaving the economically disadvantaged kids behind. (See: link at top of page) 3. Because baseball is more suspense-oriented than action-oriented, it is easy to write it off as boring by these kids who love their MTV video games. 4. Barry Bonds. I hate to put so much on him, but, yeah. 5. Every year something comes out that further divides the recreational time of youths. Few kids have the will and determination to stick with one choice to a sufficient degree to become really proficient. Except maybe "World of Warcraft." 6. The technology of equipment is making it impossible for kids with regular old bats and gloves to compete with the kids who have the resources to get DeMarinis and Rawlings Pro Line. Kids who own (or have access to) DeMarinis are getting picked for All-Star and travelling teams ahead of the kids who don't. Another economic disparity. 7. Things like insurance liability costs are killing inner-city baseball programs and limiting access to playing space. 8. Schools are taking alternative-baseball games like kickball that teach some of baseball's fundamentals out of their gym curricula. 9. Hitting is the hardest thing to do in sports. As a result, the game sends more frustrated kids away earlier and faster than other sports. 10. Baseball is the hardest of the four major sports to conveniently play indoors. In summary, I think Weedy is right when he says "choice," but I also think that part of the problem is having baseball to choose in the first place. As fewer kids choose to play, there are fewer kids to play with, making it harder for the kids who choose to to play. Know what I mean?

posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 12:04 PM on April 24

I totally agree with the fact that there are fewer black ball players in the majors. You have to because its a fact. What I am trying to say is why does that matter? I am a sports fanatic but I still realize that it is just sports. I get sick of the race card getting played for everything. Why do we even need to bring this up? And how come no one ever brings up the fact that the percentage of white NBA ball players has drastically decreased? The point is none of it matters. People need to quit grasping at straws to find things to be offended or upset about. The facts are the facts. I dont see the US moving back in the direction of slavery or segregation so why dont we quit bringing up racial issues that aren't really issues? Just let it go so we can move on as a society because while you should never forget about the past you can't move forward if you're still clinging to it. And the last time I checked football was a pretty expensive sport to play and I know before the JV level you have to buy your own equipment. What does that mean? I just figured that would be something else to think about.

posted by clemsontigersfanatic at 01:15 PM on April 24

What I am trying to say is why does that matter? People have answered this question for you, repeatedly. Are you saying that you don't understand what they said? If so, maybe you should ask for clarification on whatever it is you're not getting, rather than continuing to ask the same question. And, if you do truly want answers, you really need to stop pummeling the "playing the race card/finding things to be offended at/white players in the NBA/move on as a society/still clinging to it" strawmen. It's really offensive to put words into other people's mouths.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 01:34 PM on April 24

OK little brown bat. Give me some clarification on why it matters, because no one has sufficiently answered the question yet. And to be honest with you it is really offensive as a member of society to continually see others recieve more benefits, not because they earned it or deserve it, but because of the way they look. But you see it is politically correct to give away things like this so it doesn't matter if it is offensive to me. And I haven't been repeating myself I have added things on to "CLARIFY" my position. And I honestly do not see where people have answered this question repeatedly. The best answer I saw is that "the population [is] being priced out of what was once (not so long ago) considered the national pastime." And I still do not see where this is true. Professional sports are for a select few and only the best make it. Not everyone that plays baseball goes pro. As far as playing goes no one is priced out. Recreational leagues are not expensive. High School baseball teams are not expensive. There are many parks you can go to with your friends and play ball. Travel leagues can be very expensive yes, but you dont have to play them. You can argue that in order to go pro you have to play in these expensive leagues ( I say that is BS), but if you are only playing baseball to make a professional living, I think you missed the boat and dont need to be playing anyway. The problem with athletics today is that too many people are playing to make it big and not playing for the love of the game. So if your argument is on the importance of going pro then yes mabe we do have a problem. But I think the problem is your argument and that is what I have been saying all along. The argument is flawed. Everyone that wants to play baseball can play and has the opportunity to play. Maybe not everyone can go pro, but isn't it supposed to be that way? This is the reason I am frustrated with the race issue being put into this. Because every child has a chance to play baseball, white, black Chinese, Japanese, Indian, whatever. Is it really a problem that some of them don't go pro?Is that really an issue of great importance? Cause I dont think it is. So why bring it up to begin with? Who is it hurting? Society?I think not. The game of baseball? I think not. Now you can clarify me on whatever you want.

posted by clemsontigersfanatic at 02:30 PM on April 24

It hurts the game of baseball if the best players are being denied an opportunity to show their skills on the world stage. And it hurts the fans, who pay in money, time and emotion to see the greatest players in the world. Not the greatest players from suburban San Diego. If we are being robbed of seeing Willie Mayses (or Mickey Mantles) on the baseball field, it's important to ask why and try to come up with a solution to getting the best players into the game. I'm not interested in seeing the Major Leagues evolve into 750 Marcus Gileses (just to pick somebody who routinely kills my fantasy team). Plus, the more opportunities we present for people in general to strive to be the best -- at anything, whatever they're good at -- the better off we all are. I agree that playing for the love of the game is priority one. I totally don't agree that everyone is getting an equal opportunity to play baseball. And for those who are able to and do play, it's worth exploring whether there is a glass ceiling on any demographic (African-Americans, women, the economically deprived, people from landlocked states, the insane, poor spellers, ugly people, etc.) that is hiding unique talents from the world. I don't pretend to speak for others. That's just my view.

posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 02:53 PM on April 24

OK little brown bat. Give me some clarification on why it matters, because no one has sufficiently answered the question yet. Here's your clarification. From this thread -- from the comments above: "I think one of the points Nevius is making is that a Dominican kid can still get noticed by scouts, no matter a lack of resources, while a kid in the same financial circumstances here would be overlooked. So if you're poor and athletic in the U.S., you're not choosing baseball because baseball ain't choosing you." -- rcade "Maybe people should be lamenting the lack of cornfed farm boys. If professional baseball is becoming a privileged only league, that should concern everybody who loves baseball. If the most visible evidence of this is the dwindling number of black people, I say great. If the Jackie Robinson festivities make more people aware of the problem, then even better. Any change in how recruiting is done to aid black people is going to help poor white people as well." -- bperk "It's not about equitable representation - it's about legacy and generational difference in the black sports community. Baseball has fallen off the wagon for some reason, and the article is positing one." -- Weedy McSmoky "Why does it matter? Clearly it doesn't, to you. But some people care, for their own reasons -- many, I suspect, because it means that baseball is changing. Of all the sports played in the United States, none has the historical depth and breadth of baseball, and many people look on the years following the breaking of the color barrier and the subsequent influx of highly talented African-American players into the Major Leagues as some of the very best years of baseball. Now the demographics show that things have changed." -- me "No one is saying "We need to get more African Americans playing baseball." What they are saying is, "Gee, why are there so fewer African Americans playing baseball these days?" And this particular reason is the ridiculous prices it costs to play baseball these days. It's probably safe to say plenty of white folks are priced out of the game, also. Just so happens that last weekend was the anniversary of a major historical event that deals with race and American history." -- SummersEve Now, I want you to pay careful, careful attention to this point: all the above are statements expressing how, and why, the percentage of African-American players in baseball today matters to the people who made the statements. No one is saying that it has to matter to you. As far as playing goes no one is priced out. Recreational leagues are not expensive. High School baseball teams are not expensive. There are many parks you can go to with your friends and play ball. Travel leagues can be very expensive yes, but you dont have to play them. You can argue that in order to go pro you have to play in these expensive leagues ( I say that is BS), but if you are only playing baseball to make a professional living, I think you missed the boat and dont need to be playing anyway. But we're talking about playing in the pros here, not some abstract love of the game. We're talking about the changing face of MLB, so let's just stick to that, okay? No, you don't have to play on a travel team; yes, you can just go play in the park or on the high school team (which isn't free these days, no matter what you may believe), but do you have any chance of getting to the pros if you go that route? The days of scouts traveling around to high school games and summer leagues are gone -- why should they do that, when they can go to showcases instead? And poor kids can't afford to go to showcases or play on travel teams. They can't afford to get the coaching in their formative years that could make a difference. It's extremely naive to say that "no one is priced out". Follow the link I posted to IMG and see what I'm talking about.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 02:59 PM on April 24

And to be honest with you it is really offensive as a member of society to continually see others recieve more benefits, not because they earned it or deserve it, but because of the way they look. If you are referring to black people, I think you need to take a close look at yourself and the real world around you. There are few benefits to being black in this society. If you are referring to people who look like Gisele Bundchen, then please ignore this comment.

posted by bperk at 03:02 PM on April 24

"I think one of the points Nevius is making is that a Dominican kid can still get noticed by scouts, no matter a lack of resources, while a kid in the same financial circumstances here would be overlooked. So if you're poor and athletic in the U.S., you're not choosing baseball because baseball ain't choosing you." -- rcade How is something like this prove-able?Why would MLB spend more dollars to go to other countries if better talent was right here in inner city baseball? "Maybe people should be lamenting the lack of cornfed farm boys. If professional baseball is becoming a privileged only league, that should concern everybody who loves baseball. If the most visible evidence of this is the dwindling number of black people, I say great. If the Jackie Robinson festivities make more people aware of the problem, then even better. Any change in how recruiting is done to aid black people is going to help poor white people as well." -- bperk Why should it concern everybody? Again if you like baseball it is available for everyone to play. And again it is not expensive to play junior high and high school ball along with rec ball. And if the talent level in probaseball is as good as it is now where is the problem? Changing the dynamics of who plays the game won't change how much people like the game today. It has fallen to the likes of he NFL and NBA because they are fast paced leagues.Todays attention span in the youth makes it difficult for them to watch a game of baseball because it is so slow. "It's not about equitable representation - it's about legacy and generational difference in the black sports community. Baseball has fallen off the wagon for some reason This isn't even a valid argument "Why does it matter? Clearly it doesn't, to you. But some people care, for their own reasons -- many, I suspect, because it means that baseball is changing. Get over it people. Change is a part of life, accept it or get left behind. ." What they are saying is, "Gee, why are there so fewer African Americans playing baseball these days?" And this particular reason is the ridiculous prices it costs to play baseball these days. Playing baseball or pro baseball? I think the answer is pro baseball and that shouldn't matter as I have stated previously.The game is available to ALL.And even if the pro game isn't as widely available as JV and Varsity ball, ITS PRO BASEBALL! Not everyone is supposed to get in!!! Now, I want you to pay careful, careful attention to this point: all the above are statements expressing how, and why, the percentage of African-American players in baseball today matters to the people who made the statements. No one is saying that it has to matter to you. Get over yourself. This is the reason why racism will not fade away in America. Because people like YOU keep bringing up propaganda that appears that minorities are not treated fairly. Minorities get more opportunities than the average American. They get this out of a feeling that "we need to redeem ourselves for past wrongs." But this generation has made no wrongs toward minoriies and its time to make everything a level playing field.Put those who deserve it based on their achievements first. That is only fair. But we're talking about playing in the pros here, not some abstract love of the game. We're talking about the changing face of MLB, so let's just stick to that, okay? What is wrong with todays game. Can the players in the game today not play?I think not. I think there is an exceptional amount of talent in MLB. The game is just too slow for todays generation to pay attention to. yes, you can just go play in the park or on the high school team (which isn't free these days, no matter what you may believe), but do you have any chance of getting to the pros if you go that route? So what do they have to pay for in High School ball? Their glove? I think that is only fair. And I'm sure if a kid has enough potential his coach will find a way to get him on the field. And I dont know what the probability is of going pro out of high school ball but I'm sure if you have the talent you can at least get a free ride in college. Especially with the amount of kids going right from High School to the majors. And whats wrong with a free education? Shouldn't that be a desirable goal and ample motivation? The days of scouts traveling around to high school games and summer leagues are gone -- why should they do that, when they can go to showcases instead? Because if their job is to find the best talent and there is better talent in inner city High Schools why wouldn't they go there?

posted by clemsontigersfanatic at 10:11 PM on April 24

Get over yourself. No, you need to get over yourself. Seriously. You asked a question; I answered it. You asked why does anyone care; I told you. You seem to have a problem with other people caring about things that you don't care about, and that is something that you really do need to get over.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 10:23 PM on April 24

How is something like this prove-able?Why would MLB spend more dollars to go to other countries if better talent was right here in inner city baseball? From here: Baseball teams select U.S. amateur players through a draft process, based on the reverse order of their finish. The draft is a way to level the playing field so deep pocketed teams couldn't corner all the young talent. It also gives the U.S. players limited bargaining leverage when negotiating a signing bonus and contract with the team that drafted them. But the draft does not apply to players from outside the U.S., partly because there were only a handful of foreign-born players when the draft started in 1965. This fact has caused teams to look more closely at overseas markets, particularly Caribbean countries, since scouting skill, as opposed to the luck of the draw, helps them discover and sign players. "The international market is more economically efficient," said Vince Gennaro, a consultant to numerous major league teams and the author of "Diamonds and Dollars," a book about the economics of baseball. "This is the place where the high revenue teams can leverage their economic advantage." Because of that, every team has opened an academy in the Dominican Republic, providing a combination of schooling and baseball instruction to the promising young players. Another 10 teams have academies in Venezuela. "Clubs do leverage their dollars much better if they develop a kid in a country not subject to the draft," said Jimmie Lee Solomon, MLB executive vice president for baseball operations, who is black. "Those decisions are purely business decisions, very pragmatic business decisions." In addition, the relative poverty of some of the countries, such as the Dominican Republic, made it relatively cheap to sign many of the players, although those signing bonuses are rising in recent years. So the percentage of foreign born players has seen a steady climb, to 29 percent this year, nearly double their percentage in 1995. Why should it concern everybody? Again, if you love baseball you want to see the best players in the world playing on the biggest stages. Losing them, for any reason, diminishes the game. If you don't care, then you don't care. Go have a sandwich. This isn't even a valid argument What is invalid about it? New generations of black athletes are not mirroring the tastes of previous generations. That's what the whole discussion is about. Get over it people. Change is a part of life, accept it or get left behind. That is an excellent point. Except for the part where it totally and blanketly dismisses the importance of history. Far be it from me to suggest taking off your blinders. ITS PRO BASEBALL! Not everyone is supposed to get in!!! First of all, you live in a fishbowl. That's not a judgment -- I live in a fishbowl, too, but I do know that baseball is not available to everyone for a variety of reasons, as I have suggested earlier. Second, America is the land of oppotunity. The ideal is that everyone should have the opportunity, given all the requisite assets, to make the majors. No, not everyone is supposed to get in, but the reason should be purely talent based. It shouldn't be based on race, geography, economic standing, gender or any other arbitrary basis. Minorities get more opportunities than the average American. Bperk already told you that this is incorrect. I agree that it is incorrect. I suspect the majority of people on this site will disagree with you. Again, you and I live in fishbowls. They get this out of a feeling that "we need to redeem ourselves for past wrongs." Who is this "they" to whom you are referring? This is why racism will not fadc away in America, because people maintain an "us against them" mentality. Nice work. Because if their job is to find the best talent and there is better talent in inner city High Schools why wouldn't they go there? I'd love to tell you, but the whole premise of your argument is that we shouldn't even be discussing this. So I won't.

posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 10:56 PM on April 24

Minorities get more opportunities than the average American. They get this out of a feeling that "we need to redeem ourselves for past wrongs." But this generation has made no wrongs toward minoriies and its time to make everything a level playing field. Sounds like you got burned in the past. If this is the excuse you've chosen to lessen the pain, then you have my sympathies.

posted by SummersEve at 04:50 AM on April 25

Common theme, blaming "the other" for one's lot in life. If you are poor and white, you blame black people. If you are poor and black, you blame immigrants. Yada yada yada. There aren't enough good jobs to go around, so blame the group that you think is getting them. Instead of blaming corporations moving job overseas or a government that makes such decisions easy for corporations or companies like Wal-mart who don't pay living wages, blame other poor people.

posted by bperk at 10:02 AM on April 25

To try to get this back on track...what would a "level playing field" look like, in terms of athletic opportunity? We can say that a "level playing field" should exist, but how would you level it?

posted by lil_brown_bat at 10:15 AM on April 25

I'm probably in the minority on this, but I don't think the playing field is all that unlevel. I've always thought that baseball was the 1 sport that if you had talent, they would find you. We had a high school kid that threw in the 90's last year and there were scouts lined up at every start he made. He never played anything other than high school and legion ball. I know there are a lot of advantages for the kids that can afford the special camps and lessons offered today, but don't think it goes that far as to helping kids turn into MLB talent. It may help a kid be better than average as far as little league and high school goes, but being a really good high school player is a far stretch from professional ability. To me, that skill level is something you have or you don't...not something you can buy at a camp. As I mentioned in another post on the same subject, I've seen my son's friends dropping baseball like crazy between tee ball and now going into Babe Ruth this year. We had to drop another team because of lack of players and let a neighboring county bring their only team to play in our league. Most kids, all races, are losing interest in baseball long before money becomes much of a factor.

posted by louisville_slugger at 11:54 AM on April 25

And I agree with you Louisville slugger. Like I said baseball is just not as appealing to todays youth. And I am not a racist and I dont have a problem with black people. I'm for equality and people being judged on merit and ability. I haven't been burned in the past, I just get tired of people still saying that black people dont get the same benefits as white people because they do. I think when people quit making excuses and just work hard that America will be better off. But like I have said, we can't get rid of racism until we stop bringing it up everytime it appears a majority group makes a gain in something. I think that is just the natural ebb and flow of society. There are gains and there are losses for everyone and thats OK. Survival of the fittest people. If you want to progress it takes hard work, but it can be done. Stop making excuses and just do it.

posted by clemsontigersfanatic at 02:52 PM on April 25

So much for trying to get the thread back to baseball.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 04:00 PM on April 25

And I am not a racist and I dont have a problem with black people. I'm for equality and people being judged on merit and ability. I haven't been burned in the past, I just get tired of people still saying that black people dont get the same benefits as white people because they do. I think when people quit making excuses and just work hard that America will be better off. Well, you are in good company with other people who don't think they are racist.

posted by bperk at 04:30 PM on April 25

This article is inane. The title is "Why baseball is so white". It does not seem so white to me - at least not as white as hockey and bowling or not as black as basketball and football. Does Nevius have the expectation that blacks should be dominating baseball as they do basketball and football? The article does not get much better. According to Nevius, Robinson's 60th anniversary caused many people to check the rosters and wonder why there are so few African American players. I am not sure how many "many" is but I doubt that the people who are motivated to do this type of survey perform it once a decade on Robinson's anniversity but more likely take their inventory whenever they feel like it. Nevius then goes on to attempt to answer his question with the following: 1. Lack of current role models. 2. Rise in video games. Both of these answers are silly. I never liked the term "role model" that seemed to surface in the 80s. It assumes no one is capable of thinking, making decisions, or understanding right from wrong unless there is a "role model" to do that for him. The assumption is that blacks are substituting the time they would normally play baseball in favor of video games but the video games apparently do not affect the time they participate in football and basketball. Then Nevius thinks he found the real reason - Money, since he believes that personal trainers, quality ball fields, equipment, summer traveling leagues, etc. for kids will lead to professional contracts. If he believes this is the case then he should change this article to "Why baseball is for the affluent". He should then compare the cost of baseball to other sports. I know I could afford to play baseball when I was a kid but I could not come close to affording to play golf. Nevius also contradicts himself and mentions the success of kids from Dominican Republic and other countries who play on streets, parking lots, or any other available location. I am not familar with CW Nevius but based on this effort it seems to me that the San Francisco Chronicle could find a more adept journalist.

posted by longgreenline at 03:50 AM on April 26

Well, you are in good company with other people who don't think they are racist. bperk, is this your assupmtion that I along with most are in fact racist? I can tell you this. Yes I do notice that people that like to refer to themselves as African American are a few shades darker than myself. And yes if this makes me a racist I'll agree with you. But that would make the writer of this article racist as well. I do not in any way think black/brown people are any better or any worse than anyone else including myself. THIS is the reason things like this irritate me. I think on the whole America has dropped the ball on making things equal and the main reason is the fact that everyone contiunues to come up with propaganda that things that are equal are not. So there is this constant tug of war between the racist whites and the racist blacks and neutral America comes to the conclusion that America is still trapped in the Civil War. While in reality its not that there are that many black people that hate white people and that many white people that hate black people, but the ones that do make the headlines. And like it or not its the liberal media that continues to make things seem this way for reasons I dont dare to assume for fear of offending the UNITED STATES OF THE OFFENDED. Because thats what we have become. I'm all for people expressing their beliefs if everyone can equally. But do you really think that happens? If you do I think you're in a sad state of denial. It is completely acceptable to say whatever you want about Christians whether or not it is offensive. But Don Imos says something about the rutgers basketball team, (which I dont think was a nice thing to say, but is no different than anything said on 95% of rap stations across America) he gets fired. People need to stop being so sensative. They are only words and if you dont like them thats OK, but he should be allowed to present what ever topic he wants UNLESS we truly want to make it so that offensive language to ANY AND EVERYONE is UNACCEPTABLE. But until that days comes ( because its not here yet) get off the peoples back that want to make comments on the way they feel. This was partially my point in this whole debate. You see I made statements that the way you feel about the game of baseball was unacceptable and you got all fired up. I made statements that blacks were treated the same as whites and you got all fired up. Well, why is it OK for someone to say blacks are treated unfairly, but not OK for someone to say they are. It is an opinion. And people are allowed to feel however they choose. If you want to persecute someone for their beliefs you are saying only your beliefs are right, so we either need to accept everyones beliefs no-ones beliefs or make a national belief system (which was in place in the founding of this country as one nation under God). Which one would you have? Do you think about who you offend before you speak? You might but do you really think you can go through life without offending anyone? I dont think you can and if you could it would mean you had no beliefs ( which could offend someone as well). You see you cant be sensative to everyones beliefs because there is no national belief system. So dont be a hippocrite. If you are for not offending people and you speak your mind you are offending someone which is hippocritical. So we as a country either need to quit whining about offensive language or stop allowing people to speak (write, email, advertise) on a public stage all together and that is a rediculous notion. Just make it equal is all I'm saying. And for those of you that are offended because this has nothing to do with baseball maybe you offended me by making racial injustices an issue in baseball. Does my offense trump your offense, if it does I wouldn't be shocked because that double standard is what runs the United States these days.

posted by clemsontigersfanatic at 10:34 AM on April 26

I doubt that anyone was offended by your rant, so I have no idea why you are even talking about Imus and all the rest because they are completely separate issues. As for me, people spouting racist bullshit anytime they have a forum doesn't really surprise me. I could care less if you don't think you are racist, there aren't all that many ways to read your comments. According to you, black people are not treated unfairly. In fact, minorities have more opportunities than the average American (obviously to you, the average American is not a minority, but that's a whole other issue). The logical question is why are the poverty rates of black people 4 to 5 times more than the poverty rates of white people? Let me guess -- they don't work hard enough or any of the other ridiculous stereotypes that are sprinkled throughout your comments - they want special privileges, they won't just get over slavery, and on and on. Whatever, I'm unimpressed. I'm a little disappointed in Clemson because I thought it was a better school than your comments would indicate.

posted by bperk at 11:27 AM on April 26

First off bperk I didn't say anything racist. Racism is stating that your race is superior than another. Secondly I stated that what Imus said was not a paticularly nice thing to say. And that is a good question- I dont know why poverty rates are lower amoung black people. But I can tell you I never singled any race out as lazy or wanting special privalages. I singled individuals out that are lazy and want special privaledges, and unfortunately it is only the lazy individuals that get the media attention. I have said repeatedly that I dont judge people as a group but base my likes and dislikes, again, on an individual basis. Maybe using your logic hispanics could say that black people are unfairly treating them and holding them back because they have a higher poverty rate than black people. Maybe culturally there is a reason black people are in a higher poverty level. Maybe it is because the way America is set up ( since it was founded mainly by white western europeans). Maybe the African culture was different than this and thats why the povert rate is higher. I hope not however because that would mean that the black population has refused to adjust them-selves to the population. And again remember this. The United States has done a very good job of creating minority benefits and I think the best example is that of allowing more opportnities for higher education. It is with education that one can learn better ways of accomplishing goals and can come up with better ways to fix problems. Do you feel the United States is responsible for conforming to the minority? I would hope not. It is your choice to live here and America is a democracy. That means that the will of the majority is the outcome of how a society is run. If you choose to live in America the laws set up are those that the majority of the population favor. It is your responsability as a citizen to adapt and figure out how best to succeed in society. That is what makes democracy so great. The people are governed by the beliefs of the majority not run by the beliefs of a few. If you are wondering why you are in the situation you are in, maybe you should look at how well you have adjusted to your surroundings. I dont think there is some conspiracy to keep black people poor and I'm very dissappointed that you think my wanting equal treatment for all means I'm racist. I was mearly stating that in some areas minorities (not just black people) do have more benefits than the majority and to be honest with you I cannot see why that would be so anymore. There was a time during slavery where black people had no education so when slavery ended there was a need to give aid to a race that had been setback because of an injustice. But slavery was over a long time ago and there are opportunities to succeed in education. Jewish people were exterminated during WWII and I don't see the Jewish population having poverty problems and I also dont see anyone making excuses for Jewish people. Why aren't there more Jewish people in baseball if the sport is only for people with money. Because it is not about money and it is not about race nor should it be. I'm not saying black people whine about injustices or that they are lazy or anything like that. And I haven't stereotyped anyone. I have stated that it is a few that speaks for many and unfortunately the few (white and black) that have something negative to say are the voices we seem to hear. And if I did offend you I'm sorry that you cant understand my point of view but I will not apologize for my right to have beliefs. I also have yet to criticize you and you have criticized both my point of view and made an assumption on my character. Both of which are off base. I realize that it is your right to say these things and to be honest with you your individual judgement of my character (while I'm sad that you misunderstand me) does not affect me nor make me feel that what I have to say is unimportant, inacurate, or morally wrong. I would like to know if these beliefs were coming from a black person with higher education because all of the black people I know ( and believe it or not I have several black friends) do not feel that the black population is at a disadadvantage or are treated unfairly. Most of the people I find that feel that minorities are treated unfairly are the rich white liberal popultation (which is really ironoic I think). But hey if you are African American and I have offended you I apologize as long as you can present me with facts that show you are disadvantaged and can converse with me on an intellectual level (white and black and Asian and Indian and African etc.) Because I dont discriminate by color or race. I do not however have a large amount of respect for ignorance so when I do converse with people I expect rational educated thought. And being from South Carolina that includes all my white (honky) friends. I don't discuss ignorant things with them either. So think I'm racist if you want to but for having never met me that is a hell of an assumption to make. One which I refuse to label you by yet.

posted by clemsontigersfanatic at 01:29 PM on April 26

Clemson, if your goal is to win the argument by making y0urself increasingly unreadable, well I say congratulations. Don't they have paragraphs at Clemson?

posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 02:16 PM on April 26

obviously to you, the average American is not a minority, but that's a whole other issue And I'm sorry but I had to comment on this one. Do you mean to tell me that the average American is the minority? Wouldn't that make them no longer minorities? I truly hope that you are intellegent enough to realize what MINORITY means. So no, I do not think the average American is the minority because that would negate the meaning of minority. I'm a little disappointed in Clemson because I thought it was a better school than your comments would indicate. And to comment on this one, I haven't said anything that is ignorant in any of my posts. Why do you feel the need to slander a perfectly good University. The only thing I said that was boarder line inappropriate was the comment that minorities have more benefits, and even this isn't necessarily an unreasonable statement I just do not at the moment have any way to prove it so I should not have stated it in the manner in which I did. So I apologize for that.

posted by clemsontigersfanatic at 02:27 PM on April 26

Clemson, if your goal is to win the argument by making y0urself increasingly unreadable, well I say congratulations. Don't they have paragraphs at Clemson? I apologize for not appropriately organizing my writing. I assumed that since it was a blog I was not going to be graded on my sentence structure. I didn't really feel the need to put that much work into the whole process but I'll do better next time. If you look hard enough there are probably some run on sentences in there too.

posted by clemsontigersfanatic at 02:31 PM on April 26

I'm not grading you. I'm not reading you at all. It hurts my eyes, and judging from your use of caps and bold I have the feeling you're just repeating the same stuff over and over. I am, however, leaning back and seeing if the blocks of words make a picture from a distance. So far, nothing.

posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 02:47 PM on April 26

Clemson in my opinion it is much easier to read comments that have spaces here in there between paragraphs instead of one behemoth paragraph. By writing those, it can cause people to just not even bother to read what you have to say. For example, this comment has an ideal structure.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 03:04 PM on April 26

And it also has no relavent information. I apologized for the long paragraphs but if I can read it in an ADD state I'm sure you can as well. But I apologize for the fact you have to read to get information.

posted by clemsontigersfanatic at 03:24 PM on April 26

I assumed that since it was a blog I was not going to be graded on my sentence structure. You assumed since you'd be communicating with others there was no reason to try to be clear and concise?

posted by yerfatma at 03:25 PM on April 26

If you just want to write in a cathartic fashion, ie, you just gotta get it out of your system and don't care if anybody reads it, then just sit down and type as fast and furious as you can. If you want to be read, and your points and opinions given any sort of attention, it helps to write in a fashion that makes it easier to read your posts. It also helps not to act like a petulant child when somebody who's been here longer than you points these things out to you. If you'd like to participate, by all means, do so. Just understand that your "big block o' type with no breaks at all" style is not getting read, simply because it's not convenient for others to read it.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 03:58 PM on April 26

Hey, there is an image there, click here and you'll see it.

posted by SummersEve at 03:59 PM on April 26

Guys I've told you I understand. I believe there would have been a better way for you to inform me but its OK. I will write in a manner easier to read. I agree it was harder to read than a well organized paragraph would be but that shouldn't change the fact that I have a good point of view. In short. You were RIGHT ABOUT THE WAY I ORGANIZED MY WRITING EARLIER. I WILL CHANGE IT IN THE FUTURE. Something you guys could learn is presenting a way of teaching or suggesting that is not INSULTING.

posted by clemsontigersfanatic at 04:12 PM on April 26

Damn, douche, that's cold. Completely apropo, but cold, just the same. Pretty work.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 04:38 PM on April 26

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